Fear, stun locking, movement impairing effects..

GreenHell

..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

 

Zaltark

War has always been about immobilizing troops/vehicles. It always will be. Since the beginning of time man has used nets to catch things. I think its fundamental.

GreenHell

In the real world I would agree with you. This isn't the real world we are talking about though. This is a video game mechanic that just seems obsolete at this point in the genre. Is fear and stun locking really the best this industry can do to make fun and interesting classes?

Zaltark

I dont understand how its obsolete. If everyone moved at the same speed and could not stun/had no movement boosts, then wouldnt everyone just kite everyond all the time? Rock/Paper/Scissors is still the same concept in videogames, I dont really get how it would become obsolete. Paper/paper/paper wouldnt really get anywhere it would just 'tie' all the time.

I saw you dont mind 'roots'. So its alright to not move, but you dont want to be 'out of the fight'. I cant really say anything other than I see nothing wrong with a stun. Its just another crowd control ability. Things can always be stunned in a combat setting.

Jakdstripper

one of the most annoying features of mmo's pvp is CC in my opinion. the majority of mmo have way too much cc.

 

unfortunately, with the tab targeting combat, you are pretty much forced to have it otherwise it becomes incredibly boring and mind numbingly easy. you just spam your attacks/heals and hope you get bigger numbers then the enemy. CC is that extra layer of strategy that you need to take in account when fighting. it's a way to force people to have to strategize on the fly knowing there will be times the enemy will incapacitates you.  if you remove it it all comes down to just who's got the bigger numbers. very lame. 

 

the only games that manages to be fun WITHOUT cc are game where you need to aim, but then it becomes more of a twitch fps based skill game.

 

 

Adamantine

Anything that makes combat more varied is a good thing.

However, if a player can chain stun another player, balance is definitely violated. That shouldnt be possible at all.

Shorttime disabling effects that grant an immunity however are fine and add another layer of complexity. When exactly do you attempt to stun your opponent (since he'll be immune to it for a while afterwards) etc.

And yes, too much CC gets quickly annoying. The point of PvP is not to stand around looking silly, after all.

 

Don-Quixote

The bad thing about the current way CC is implemented in some games is not that it exists, but that it incapacittes you completely.

In WoW (to take the broader example) a rogue can:

Sap

Kidney Shot

Cheap shot

Blind you

All in a row. See, during these CCs one is unable to do anything. Sure, one can trinket out of it but will fall victim to the next one. While this gives an advantage to more tactical-aware team it makes the player feel that he's not actually playing, but waiting to play.

It kinda takes the fun out of it.

Wolfenpride

Being able to stunlock is a tad unfair i'll agree, stuns should have diminishing effects after the first one. All CC methods should actually, DAoC did something similar if I recall right.

edit: I also think stuns should largely belong to low dps/defensive Tanks, to give them a better role in PvP beyond being a punching bag that everyone ignores. Rogues high dps combined with the best stuns in the game is silly if you ask me.

Vrika

I think that CC is good, as long as it doesn't last too long. Being able to CC your opponent allows you to play more strategically than just maximizing your damage output, and being CCed forces you to react and rethink your strategy making encounters more different.

Only when you end up being CCed for longer perioids of time and there's nothing you could have done to prevent it it's a problem.

maplestone

Is it possible that you would be upset at whatever the rock was that kept blunting your scissors?

Or is there something fundementally different about not having any buttons all all to push?  Let's look at the root effect that you say you are ok with.  What about root + one of your abilities disabled?  Root + half your abilities disabled?  All by two?  All but one?  Where is the threshold between losing movement and losing all options where it ceases to be any fun at all?

Angier2758

Honestly we need more kinds of CC in pvp games.. not more stuns, roots, snares...

I'd like true blinds, smokescreens, knockbacks, knockdowns, disorients, amnesia spells.

I also want to see counter CC.. like if you get knocked down being able to roll out of it or sweep the enemies around you.

Kyleran

Originally posted by GreenHell

..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

 

Yes, and IMO the real mistake in most modern MMO's is giving every class some form of stun/sleep.

I liked how DAOC lumped it all into a few classes, who although powerful if you played smart and neutralized them you could prevail.

Also, their abilities made it possible for a well played 8 man team to beat  2 or 3 other teams, based on how well they locked folks down.

Sucked for the folks who were locked down, but they had to learn to play better. (there were counters, you just had to have them and know when/how to use them.)

 

Quirhid

Stuns, fear and roots etc. are very powerful effects which should have relatively short durations and long cooldowns in order to keep them in check. The actual time depends on the game and its pace. 3 second fear in one game may be huge but a minor inconvenience in another.

More importantly all of these should have counters. Not just counters, but sensible counters. This is very important and very often underestimated. Many players don't get this. A counter is not sensible if all your efforts go to countering something or that if your chosen counter has no other function than to counter one thing.

I have no issue with stuns, fear, roots etc. if they're kept in check. Some profound effects can make the game more exciting. What I don't like is the invisibility-type stealth. It is rarely implemented in a satisfactory way and could potentially be a game maker/breaker ability.

Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by GreenHell

 

Yes, and IMO the real mistake in most modern MMO's is giving every class some form of stun/sleep.

I liked how DAOC lumped it all into a few classes, who although powerful if you played smart and neutralized them you could prevail.

Also, their abilities made it possible for a well played 8 man team to beat  2 or 3 other teams, based on how well they locked folks down.

Sucked for the folks who were locked down, but they had to learn to play better. (there were counters, you just had to have them and know when/how to use them.)

 

I have no first-hand experience but what I've heard and read sound like it was a balancing nightmare. I heard about pre-casting spells before battle and unleashing them all at once... I don't know who came up with this, but it would certainly trip some alarms in my mind. Something like that is extremely hard to control and balance.

Volkon

The effects should last no more than a few seconds, period, and it should be impossible for any one person to chain them to the point that someone else is completely incapable of functioning. A limit of one, maybe two, loss of control skills maximum per person. (Doesn't include things like knockbacks, knockdowns, etc.)  These types of skills should be used to shift balance a bit, not to take complete control.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by GreenHell

 

Yes, and IMO the real mistake in most modern MMO's is giving every class some form of stun/sleep.

I liked how DAOC lumped it all into a few classes, who although powerful if you played smart and neutralized them you could prevail.

Also, their abilities made it possible for a well played 8 man team to beat  2 or 3 other teams, based on how well they locked folks down.

Sucked for the folks who were locked down, but they had to learn to play better. (there were counters, you just had to have them and know when/how to use them.)

 

I have no first-hand experience but what I've heard and read sound like it was a balancing nightmare. I heard about pre-casting spells before battle and unleashing them all at once... I don't know who came up with this, but it would certainly trip some alarms in my mind. Something like that is extremely hard to control and balance.

I won't say it was easy, and I'm sure there are many who will say it was never balanced, they're probably right.

But back then I didn't look for balance, as far as team play things seemed pretty balanced (except for those damn hibs and their AOE blasting through Keep walls, they farmed us Albs like wheat in the fields).

I remember playing a couple of classes that had an anti-CC spell, and my role was to make sure I avoided getting nailed by the large primary stuns and then free up my fellow team mates, (usually starting with healers, and my own CC if they got caught)

It was just an interesting way to play for me, and I know some people despised it because you literally could be held for 45 seconds and watch helplessly as the opponents kill train rolled over your mates one by one.

 

Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

I won't say it was easy, and I'm sure there are many who will say it was never balanced, they're probably right.

But back then I didn't look for balance, as far as team play things seemed pretty balanced (except for those damn hibs and their AOE blasting through Keep walls, they farmed us Albs like wheat in the fields).

I remember playing a couple of classes that had an anti-CC spell, and my role was to make sure I avoided getting nailed by the large primary stuns and then free up my fellow team mates, (usually starting with healers, and my own CC if they got caught)

It was just an interesting way to play for me, and I know some people despised it because you literally could be held for 45 seconds and watch helplessly as the opponents kill train rolled over your mates one by one.

 

Yep. Certainly sounds like something I wouldn't have enjoyed much - or enjoy now.

Do you think you could accept such imbalance and long CC locks today? I seriously doubt hardly anyone would.

Wolvards

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by GreenHell

 

Yes, and IMO the real mistake in most modern MMO's is giving every class some form of stun/sleep.

I liked how DAOC lumped it all into a few classes, who although powerful if you played smart and neutralized them you could prevail.

Also, their abilities made it possible for a well played 8 man team to beat  2 or 3 other teams, based on how well they locked folks down.

Sucked for the folks who were locked down, but they had to learn to play better. (there were counters, you just had to have them and know when/how to use them.)

 

I have no first-hand experience but what I've heard and read sound like it was a balancing nightmare. I heard about pre-casting spells before battle and unleashing them all at once... I don't know who came up with this, but it would certainly trip some alarms in my mind. Something like that is extremely hard to control and balance.

I won't say it was easy, and I'm sure there are many who will say it was never balanced, they're probably right.

But back then I didn't look for balance, as far as team play things seemed pretty balanced (except for those damn hibs and their AOE blasting through Keep walls, they farmed us Albs like wheat in the fields).

I remember playing a couple of classes that had an anti-CC spell, and my role was to make sure I avoided getting nailed by the large primary stuns and then free up my fellow team mates, (usually starting with healers, and my own CC if they got caught)

It was just an interesting way to play for me, and I know some people despised it because you literally could be held for 45 seconds and watch helplessly as the opponents kill train rolled over your mates one by one.

 

This^ I've got a couple points to add too.

I know this part is off topic, but the part about hibs blasting through walls, (coming from a hib) was fixed with the New Frontiers, but yet so many people hated that expansion... I loved it (along with ToA) and still do, it added balance to not only those bad scenarios when we would stack up and blast albs, but also on the CC, you could get artifacts that countered those, which helped a lot. I play a Bard, and my main job is 1) Mez the enemies, 2) Demezz my group, 3) Heal team mates when needed and root enemies if needed.

I won't ever say that game has been "balanced". but the groups knew how to play for each scenario, and thats what seperated the really knowledgable good 8mans from even the zergs, you could get 8 mans that would wipe out half a zerg in seconds, cause they knew when/how to hit. I wouldn't know anything about that of course

My point being, in games that want to implement large scale warfare (GW2, PS2) You HAVE to have a form of crowd control, and not 5 seconds, i don't think there should be like a 1:20 my bard has, but somewhere around 30 seconds give or take 5. Now you also have to have a counter for those. DAoC did this well with Purge, and MoC (Mastery of concentration). On my bard i purge, then MoC (un-interutable casting) Demez my entire group and the mez is cleared in a matter of 4-5 seconds, which means we have a fighting chance 8v8. The thing with zergs is their reaction times are so slow on the mass scale. Sure you will have 10 or so people instantly purge if they have it and start fighting, but really a solid 50-60 people just sit there saying "I don't want to waste purge for this" cause theirs was on a 10 minute timer, thats how 8 mans would kill so many, is that attitude.

I don't like games that don't have a serious form of crowd control personally, atleast not if you are wanting large scale warfare. War is about immobilizing your enemies, ie Flash bang/stun grenades. Immoblize them. I know most people disagree with me. Because they are the ones who had a hard time learning the CC concept from DAoC, but once mastered you can manipulate large forces with even just 2 people, definately won't win, but sometimes buying your team 20 seconds is all it takes. And that is something that i really enjoy, being able to slow down the masses in effort of my teaming getting prepared, i learned alot about this with the ywain clusters in the last couple years cause hibs (on U.S.A. primetime that is) is well out numbered, so sometimes i do think that 20 seconds really helps my team out. There are a lot of things DAoC did when it comes to zerg warfare that really gives the edge to the smarter more knowledgable team, or atleast more tactical, and i feel like any game that can't implement these will fall short of anyones expectations, because those zergs will just turn into a numbers game, who has more wins, and with CC that is not always the truth.

Sorry for the long rant, but i think that so many people are hearing GW2 and TESO are "DAoC clones" with RvR that if they can't implement the RvR properly people will call not only GW2/TESO zerg fests and not fun, but they will blame DAoC for that and i don't feel DAoC plays like that, atleast not anymore. If you are going to do it, do it properly.

Wolvards

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

I won't say it was easy, and I'm sure there are many who will say it was never balanced, they're probably right.

But back then I didn't look for balance, as far as team play things seemed pretty balanced (except for those damn hibs and their AOE blasting through Keep walls, they farmed us Albs like wheat in the fields).

I remember playing a couple of classes that had an anti-CC spell, and my role was to make sure I avoided getting nailed by the large primary stuns and then free up my fellow team mates, (usually starting with healers, and my own CC if they got caught)

It was just an interesting way to play for me, and I know some people despised it because you literally could be held for 45 seconds and watch helplessly as the opponents kill train rolled over your mates one by one.

 

Yep. Certainly sounds like something I wouldn't have enjoyed much - or enjoy now.

Do you think you could accept such imbalance and long CC locks today? I seriously doubt hardly anyone would.

I think CC only pertains to large scale warfare. and shouldn't last more than 35-40 seconds TOPS, and if you are in CC, if you get touched, debuffed, ANYTHING from an enemy, it breaks it, make it very fragile. That i would enjoy a lot. And also make it very easy for your team to pull you out of that state as well. Make CC effective if not countered, but make it easy to counter. If that makes sense haha.

solarine

MMO combat without crowd control, or even with minor / very brief crowd control is plain boring to me. I love the idea of a class being able to take someone out of the fight for a full minute.

In every new MMO I get hit with a powerful CC, I'm not in rage but rather in awe. I just love the stuff, especially when it's in a fantasy setting. One of my pet peeves is that in these fantasy games the magic is just not magical enough, it works like "energy bolts pew pew". So when I get turned into something, or mind-controlled, I find myself oddly appreciative.

Sure, it may turn balancing PVP into a nightmare, but... see, that's another pet peeve of mine: how the need for PVP balance makes for some pretty uninspired MMOs. Though I'll save that rant for another time... :P

 

waynejr2

Originally posted by GreenHell

..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

 

Yes there should be these things.  They are fun ON BOTH SIDES of it.   It offers those who have a retentive need to be in control over every little aspect of their lives a chance to grow and get over their neurotic fixation.  It's a great thing.

BadSpock

I'd rather have PvP be about, you know, fighting, than watching health bars drop and being unable to do shit about it.

Short duration, tactical use, non-spam CC is the only way to go IMO.

"Locking down" someone is just bad design.

Having a system where you have maybe one chance to disrupt/hamper/impede another player for JUST long enough to get the edge towards victory, and that player has a chance, one chance, to counter you...

And even if you do get off that disruption, the other player should have a chance to rally and hit you right back if you aren't careful and time things well etc.

Now THAT is combat.

 

Wolvards

Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd rather have PvP be about, you know, fighting, than watching health bars drop and being unable to do shit about it.

Short duration, tactical use, non-spam CC is the only way to go IMO.

"Locking down" someone is just bad design.

Having a system where you have maybe one chance to disrupt/hamper/impede another player for JUST long enough to get the edge towards victory, and that player has a chance, one chance, to counter you...

And even if you do get off that disruption, the other player should have a chance to rally and hit you right back if you aren't careful and time things well etc.

Now THAT is combat.

 

I would agree with you, whole heartedly, if it were in a 1v1 or even e-sport scenario. But if this were to be implemented to large scale warfare, ie DaoC PvP or GW2 WvW, i would have to disagree whole heartedly

Elikal

Originally posted by GreenHell

..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

 

Yeah I hate them with a passion too. Not sure if we CAN get rid of them entirely. But I clearly spent too much time stunned in PVP.

Theocritus

     CC really ruined the fun in Warhammer....Playing a melee character past level 20 was a nightmare......THere were some battlegrounds where I couldn't do hardly a thing because there was so much CC available.....If youre going to use this type of stuff in gameplay then it needs to be extremely limited and on very long timers.

Quirhid

It really depends on the game. The easiest CC against melee characters in GW1 was body blocking. Players targeted by melee characters would run past and between allies which would then impede their advance. You could do a lot with good positioning and teamwork. And it was completely free, no abilities where used.