Only the first paragraph loads on my droid, but if I were to wager a guess, over 75% of the article is venom spewed at SWTOR, the arch-nemesis of Kotaku. That said, I do agree with the readable portion: we need more innovation in MMOs... and I'm not talking one trick ponies. The next big MMO will have a lot going for it.
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Today in EQ you get xp questing, dungeons, grind, pvp , 4 ways. Wow you get by bg, arena, dungeons, grind, quest, gathering, exploring. So sorry WoW still has more = 7 ways or 6 if you lump bgs and arena just into pvp.
I might be out of touch, but you get exp for arena now and exploring can actually be used to level, not being some very small amount of exp getting you perhaps just to level 15 for everything explored ?
So, in case i am right, that is one more choice (gathering), if you actually select the right profession (only mining, herbalism and archeology give xp), again in a area you will not likely even remember existing after a few weeks/month of playing...
And even professions can be argued about, they used to be a quid pro quo system in some other games, even eq2, where you would invest significant time (or currency or some form of "skillpoints") to get some advantage, so there actually WAS a reason (choice) to NOT get a profession. These days in wow those are fast and easy and as a result apart from the mandatory XX statpoints you get extremely few rewards, so the real choice is invest 1 afternoon to get XX statpoints or not, which is not really a choice, is it?
Flame on!
I may be dense, or tired (1a..m here) but I"m not sure what your saying.
In Wow you do get xp for arena and exploring yes. In EQ you don't.
Yes in WoW you do get xp for gathering. A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering, not actually fighting anything. There is no gathering in EQ, some classes/races can forage though.
I don't recall investing skills or skillpoints into gathering in EQ2 (ok a couple aa points but thats it). There might have been once, but I dont' recall it at relase or the times I've gone back. And it isn't that way now (again except for a couple AA that I doubt I will do - even though I am a carpenter in it, doesn't really help) I don't recall investing any points in it at all in WoW.
I suppose other games do have it. Fallen earth for one. I must admit that always bugged me. I like to craft all my stuff but I want to be a decent fighter too. By the time I invested in my intelligence and whatever the other crafting one was, and got mellee abilities up (melle, dodge, armor...) there was not a lot left over for mutations. Then I would almost always not have my first aid or the mutation healing one maxed either... oh well.
Again I may be slow today, but what mandatroy statpoints? I don't know what you mean by the sentance " apart from the mandatory XX statpoints you get extremely few rewards, so the real choice is invest 1 afternoon to get XX statpoints or not, which is not really a choice, is it"
Anyway I'm going to bed. Night.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I may be dense, or tired (1a..m here) but I"m not sure what your saying.
In Wow you do get xp for arena and exploring yes. In EQ you don't.
Yes in WoW you do get xp for gathering. A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering, not actually fighting anything. There is no gathering in EQ, some classes/races can forage though.
I don't recall investing skills or skillpoints into gathering in EQ2 (ok a couple aa points but thats it). There might have been once, but I dont' recall it at relase or the times I've gone back. And it isn't that way now (again except for a couple AA that I doubt I will do - even though I am a carpenter in it, doesn't really help) I don't recall investing any points in it at all in WoW.
I suppose other games do have it. Fallen earth for one. I must admit that always bugged me. I like to craft all my stuff but I want to be a decent fighter too. By the time I invested in my intelligence and whatever the other crafting one was, and got mellee abilities up (melle, dodge, armor...) there was not a lot left over for mutations. Then I would almost always not have my first aid or the mutation healing one maxed either... oh well.
Again I may be slow today, but what mandatroy statpoints? I don't know what you mean by the sentance " apart from the mandatory XX statpoints you get extremely few rewards, so the real choice is invest 1 afternoon to get XX statpoints or not, which is not really a choice, is it"
Anyway I'm going to bed. Night.
Are you sure you dont mean guild experience in arena?
As for " A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering " , my point was this, if a level 84 needs 9165100 exp to reach 85, just one level, and all exp there is to get from exploring in the whole game is 100k (not a precise number, and you get full exp for exploring ONLY if you are within +-5 levels off the zone level, else you get less), did he really use "exploring" as a way to level? Last real data i saw was someone reaching level 17 while hunting the world explorer achievment on a new lv1 character.
I did not say you needed skillpoints in eq2, in eq2 specifically you have to invest some portion of money and a huge amount of time.
Mandatory statpoints, a way back, most of the unique rewards from crafting, say special cloth sets only wearable by the tailor were removed (so that players dont feel "forced to get a profession"... ) in favor of every profession giving you a mechanic to gain a certain amount of statpoints , sockets for bs, special gems for jc, special leg enchants for lw. The amount gained was more or less the same in every profession, apart from some professions that did not get a choice, like mining, giving only stamina or skinning, giving only crit rating. Ofcourse this immediately became "mandatory" to get for aspiring raiders
(YIKES! I had linked the wrong article. lol. Ok THIS is the REAL one. Gomen. Thanks TwoThreeFour.^^)
"Veteran designer Warren Spector, whose credits include Deus Ex and System Shock, puts it best when he said in this 2007 interview "I'm one of those people who doesn't find anything interesting at all in leveling up, finding a +3 sword or paper-dolling a character with a purple cloak. That doesn't appeal to me in any way as a human being. Put that all together and the play experience of MMOs is on par with roleplaying back in ‘87." (OMG YES A 1000 TIMES YES!)
From cooldowns to instances to collecting ten of anything, most MMOs were, and still are, chores dressed up in the livery of a fictional universe. Aside from the basics of exploration and the lure of collecting loot and levelling up, there's been only one thing keeping people playing them, and stopping them from realising there's little difference between the banality of their daily grind to that of, say, a Farmville player."
Go and read the rest in the link. ^^
Good article. I did play roleplaying in ´87 and I think it is unfair to say that the experience was anything close to a MMO though, it was far more complex and interesting.
One would imagine that the MMO genre would evolve faster than it have. Nothing really wrong with any of the game that is being mentioned but a genre like this need a lot more diversity.
It is clear that a large number of players have gotten tired of the same old things the last 4 years but the devs just don´t seem to get it.
To me it seems like they wont until Wow reaches 1 million players.
Now do any of you see why I don't take the TESO bashes seriously?
The bashing do still miss a lot of information, to me it seems like ESO will be closer to a DaoC clone than a Wow clone.
Stillbased on what we know I think they should have tried something different. Bethesda actually did a lot of innovation that turned the elder scrolls from an arenagame into Daggerfall, the largest and one of the best RPGs ever made. Now isn't Zenimax exactly the same as Bethesda but they still could have put more work into delivering a unique experience.
But as I said, this is based on what little I picked up about the game and I can be wrong. We need more information to be sure about anything.
Are you sure you dont mean guild experience in arena?
As for " A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering " , my point was this, if a level 84 needs 9165100 exp to reach 85, just one level, and all exp there is to get from exploring in the whole game is 100k (not a precise number, and you get full exp for exploring ONLY if you are within +-5 levels off the zone level, else you get less), did he really use "exploring" as a way to level? Last real data i saw was someone reaching level 17 while hunting the world explorer achievment on a new lv1 character.
I did not say you needed skillpoints in eq2, in eq2 specifically you have to invest some portion of money and a huge amount of time.
Mandatory statpoints, a way back, most of the unique rewards from crafting, say special cloth sets only wearable by the tailor were removed (so that players dont feel "forced to get a profession"... ) in favor of every profession giving you a mechanic to gain a certain amount of statpoints , sockets for bs, special gems for jc, special leg enchants for lw. The amount gained was more or less the same in every profession, apart from some professions that did not get a choice, like mining, giving only stamina or skinning, giving only crit rating. Ofcourse this immediately became "mandatory" to get for aspiring raiders
Flame on!
Ah. No you couldn't level to max just by exploring, but you can do it through gathering and exploring. I have no idea what the total xp for exploring is, never looked at it.
Currently in EQ2 you don't need to invest any money into gathering. Yes you still need time, and Qho's is still a pain.
Regarding the statpoints, I see what you mean now. Yes it did change. But as you indicated the gathering professions still give the bonuses. But yes depending on what you are planning to do some are still op. Pvp effectively needs BS and JC. Again unless this has changed, last time I played was November 2011.
And yes Wow crafting is pretty shallow. If you have the coin you can max your profession in a day but during the leveling many recipes are still very usefull. And of course, inscriptions, enchants, potions are deadly usefull.
I'm not trying to say that WoW is the epitomy of gaming. Not at all, I'm not even playing. What I am saying is that in many games today, there is more choice than in many games of the past. Some games of the past have/had more choice: UO and SWG they had many many choices. But others such as EQ and Daoc did not. So we can't give a blanket statement and say there was more choice in the past because by and large it wasn't true. Just some games had more choice.
Further there are far more games out there. Yes more that are alike but also many that are still very different. If people state that all modern MMO's are the same, they are being very selective in the games they are looking at. There may be an argument that all AAA modern MMO's are the same, I might even agree to that but I will never agree that all modern MMO's are the same. I've just played too many that are very different. As Quizzical points out UWO is very different, Eve is very different (yes eve is older than WoW but it really doesn't look anything like it did on release), DCUO is quite different (like it or hate it, it's different), ATITD (yes the first telling and 2nd was older, but the others were not and were slightly different), Darkfall (which I didn't like because I suck at pvp), is pretty different... Thats the point. There is more games out there, more styles of games out there, more stylesofgames (before there was fantasy, now we have fantasy, sci fi, we've had historicial, we have space, we have strange space/fantasy mixtures, we have superhero...) more choice in how you play than in many past games, more people, more investors.... IMO there is just far far more choice today than there was in the past. Developers have a hell of lot harder time IMO attracting people because the competition is so much more fierce.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Ah. No you couldn't level to max just by exploring, but you can do it through gathering and exploring. I have no idea what the total xp for exploring is, never looked at it.
Currently in EQ2 you don't need to invest any money into gathering. Yes you still need time, and Qho's is still a pain.
Regarding the statpoints, I see what you mean now. Yes it did change. But as you indicated the gathering professions still give the bonuses. But yes depending on what you are planning to do some are still op. Pvp effectively needs BS and JC. Again unless this has changed, last time I played was November 2011.
And yes Wow crafting is pretty shallow. If you have the coin you can max your profession in a day but during the leveling many recipes are still very usefull. And of course, inscriptions, enchants, potions are deadly usefull.
I'm not trying to say that WoW is the epitomy of gaming. Not at all, I'm not even playing. What I am saying is that in many games today, there is more choice than in many games of the past. Some games of the past have/had more choice: UO and SWG they had many many choices. But others such as EQ and Daoc did not. So we can't give a blanket statement and say there was more choice in the past because by and large it wasn't true. Just some games had more choice.
Further there are far more games out there. Yes more that are alike but also many that are still very different. If people state that all modern MMO's are the same, they are being very selective in the games they are looking at. There may be an argument that all AAA modern MMO's are the same, I might even agree to that but I will never agree that all modern MMO's are the same. I've just played too many that are very different. As Quizzical points out UWO is very different, Eve is very different (yes eve is older than WoW but it really doesn't look anything like it did on release), DCUO is quite different (like it or hate it, it's different), ATITD (yes the first telling and 2nd was older, but the others were not and were slightly different), Darkfall (which I didn't like because I suck at pvp), is pretty different... Thats the point. There is more games out there, more styles of games out there, more stylesofgames (before there was fantasy, now we have fantasy, sci fi, we've had historicial, we have space, we have strange space/fantasy mixtures, we have superhero...) more choice in how you play than in many past games, more people, more investors.... IMO there is just far far more choice today than there was in the past. Developers have a hell of lot harder time IMO attracting people because the competition is so much more fierce.
I specifically talked about professions in respect of eq2, not just gathering
Anyways, the original disagreement was that you mentioned wow as a "game that offers more choice than past games", while i disagreed, claiming that most of the choice it offers is cosmetic and that players are in reality very restricted in their choices, that system being exactly the reason people feel modern wow clones (or "wowified" games, as Tera is in danger of becoming) offer less choice than past mmos of any type. It has nothing to do with playing other games (maybe except of those games as a point of reference) or if it is a AAA title.
Ah. No you couldn't level to max just by exploring, but you can do it through gathering and exploring. I have no idea what the total xp for exploring is, never looked at it.
Currently in EQ2 you don't need to invest any money into gathering. Yes you still need time, and Qho's is still a pain.
Regarding the statpoints, I see what you mean now. Yes it did change. But as you indicated the gathering professions still give the bonuses. But yes depending on what you are planning to do some are still op. Pvp effectively needs BS and JC. Again unless this has changed, last time I played was November 2011.
And yes Wow crafting is pretty shallow. If you have the coin you can max your profession in a day but during the leveling many recipes are still very usefull. And of course, inscriptions, enchants, potions are deadly usefull.
I'm not trying to say that WoW is the epitomy of gaming. Not at all, I'm not even playing. What I am saying is that in many games today, there is more choice than in many games of the past. Some games of the past have/had more choice: UO and SWG they had many many choices. But others such as EQ and Daoc did not. So we can't give a blanket statement and say there was more choice in the past because by and large it wasn't true. Just some games had more choice.
Further there are far more games out there. Yes more that are alike but also many that are still very different. If people state that all modern MMO's are the same, they are being very selective in the games they are looking at. There may be an argument that all AAA modern MMO's are the same, I might even agree to that but I will never agree that all modern MMO's are the same. I've just played too many that are very different. As Quizzical points out UWO is very different, Eve is very different (yes eve is older than WoW but it really doesn't look anything like it did on release), DCUO is quite different (like it or hate it, it's different), ATITD (yes the first telling and 2nd was older, but the others were not and were slightly different), Darkfall (which I didn't like because I suck at pvp), is pretty different... Thats the point. There is more games out there, more styles of games out there, more stylesofgames (before there was fantasy, now we have fantasy, sci fi, we've had historicial, we have space, we have strange space/fantasy mixtures, we have superhero...) more choice in how you play than in many past games, more people, more investors.... IMO there is just far far more choice today than there was in the past. Developers have a hell of lot harder time IMO attracting people because the competition is so much more fierce.
I specifically talked about professions in respect of eq2, not just gathering
Anyways, the original disagreement was that you mentioned wow as a "game that offers more choice than past games", while i disagreed, claiming that most of the choice it offers is cosmetic and that players are in reality very restricted in their choices, that system being exactly the reason people feel modern wow clones (or "wowified" games, as Tera is in danger of becoming) offer less choice than past mmos of any type. It has nothing to do with playing other games (maybe except of those games as a point of reference) or if it is a AAA title.
Flame on!
Yes it does take money to craft in EQ2 but I get enough for all fuel components and recipes just buy doing rush orders. It takes money to craft in WoW too. So thats a wash.
And compare any single class in old games vs wow, wow gives more choice. Compare a Paladin in EQ, every single one is the same. In WoW you have three choices. Compare a druid in EQ, again every single one isthe same. Wow has three kinds. These aren't cosmetic. They are fundamental differences, they have different stats, require different gear, different enchants and require very different ways to fight. This is hardly cosmetic.
And in leveling, fundamental differences in bg, vs, questing, vs dungeons. Yes you get to the end just the same but they are very different ways of doing it. EQ was grind in the same spot for hours/days. No matter how you slice it WoW offers more customization for your character and more ways to lvl up than EQ.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
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I may be dense, or tired (1a..m here) but I"m not sure what your saying.
In Wow you do get xp for arena and exploring yes. In EQ you don't.
Yes in WoW you do get xp for gathering. A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering, not actually fighting anything. There is no gathering in EQ, some classes/races can forage though.
I don't recall investing skills or skillpoints into gathering in EQ2 (ok a couple aa points but thats it). There might have been once, but I dont' recall it at relase or the times I've gone back. And it isn't that way now (again except for a couple AA that I doubt I will do - even though I am a carpenter in it, doesn't really help) I don't recall investing any points in it at all in WoW.
I suppose other games do have it. Fallen earth for one. I must admit that always bugged me. I like to craft all my stuff but I want to be a decent fighter too. By the time I invested in my intelligence and whatever the other crafting one was, and got mellee abilities up (melle, dodge, armor...) there was not a lot left over for mutations. Then I would almost always not have my first aid or the mutation healing one maxed either... oh well.
Again I may be slow today, but what mandatroy statpoints? I don't know what you mean by the sentance " apart from the mandatory XX statpoints you get extremely few rewards, so the real choice is invest 1 afternoon to get XX statpoints or not, which is not really a choice, is it"
Anyway I'm going to bed. Night.
Are you sure you dont mean guild experience in arena?
As for " A few people have actually leveled to max just exploring and gathering " , my point was this, if a level 84 needs 9165100 exp to reach 85, just one level, and all exp there is to get from exploring in the whole game is 100k (not a precise number, and you get full exp for exploring ONLY if you are within +-5 levels off the zone level, else you get less), did he really use "exploring" as a way to level? Last real data i saw was someone reaching level 17 while hunting the world explorer achievment on a new lv1 character.
I did not say you needed skillpoints in eq2, in eq2 specifically you have to invest some portion of money and a huge amount of time.
Mandatory statpoints, a way back, most of the unique rewards from crafting, say special cloth sets only wearable by the tailor were removed (so that players dont feel "forced to get a profession"... ) in favor of every profession giving you a mechanic to gain a certain amount of statpoints , sockets for bs, special gems for jc, special leg enchants for lw. The amount gained was more or less the same in every profession, apart from some professions that did not get a choice, like mining, giving only stamina or skinning, giving only crit rating. Ofcourse this immediately became "mandatory" to get for aspiring raiders
Flame on!
Good article. I did play roleplaying in ´87 and I think it is unfair to say that the experience was anything close to a MMO though, it was far more complex and interesting.
One would imagine that the MMO genre would evolve faster than it have. Nothing really wrong with any of the game that is being mentioned but a genre like this need a lot more diversity.
It is clear that a large number of players have gotten tired of the same old things the last 4 years but the devs just don´t seem to get it.
To me it seems like they wont until Wow reaches 1 million players.
The bashing do still miss a lot of information, to me it seems like ESO will be closer to a DaoC clone than a Wow clone.
Stillbased on what we know I think they should have tried something different. Bethesda actually did a lot of innovation that turned the elder scrolls from an arenagame into Daggerfall, the largest and one of the best RPGs ever made. Now isn't Zenimax exactly the same as Bethesda but they still could have put more work into delivering a unique experience.
But as I said, this is based on what little I picked up about the game and I can be wrong. We need more information to be sure about anything.
This...nuff said!
Ah. No you couldn't level to max just by exploring, but you can do it through gathering and exploring. I have no idea what the total xp for exploring is, never looked at it.
Currently in EQ2 you don't need to invest any money into gathering. Yes you still need time, and Qho's is still a pain.
Regarding the statpoints, I see what you mean now. Yes it did change. But as you indicated the gathering professions still give the bonuses. But yes depending on what you are planning to do some are still op. Pvp effectively needs BS and JC. Again unless this has changed, last time I played was November 2011.
And yes Wow crafting is pretty shallow. If you have the coin you can max your profession in a day but during the leveling many recipes are still very usefull. And of course, inscriptions, enchants, potions are deadly usefull.
I'm not trying to say that WoW is the epitomy of gaming. Not at all, I'm not even playing. What I am saying is that in many games today, there is more choice than in many games of the past. Some games of the past have/had more choice: UO and SWG they had many many choices. But others such as EQ and Daoc did not. So we can't give a blanket statement and say there was more choice in the past because by and large it wasn't true. Just some games had more choice.
Further there are far more games out there. Yes more that are alike but also many that are still very different. If people state that all modern MMO's are the same, they are being very selective in the games they are looking at. There may be an argument that all AAA modern MMO's are the same, I might even agree to that but I will never agree that all modern MMO's are the same. I've just played too many that are very different. As Quizzical points out UWO is very different, Eve is very different (yes eve is older than WoW but it really doesn't look anything like it did on release), DCUO is quite different (like it or hate it, it's different), ATITD (yes the first telling and 2nd was older, but the others were not and were slightly different), Darkfall (which I didn't like because I suck at pvp), is pretty different... Thats the point. There is more games out there, more styles of games out there, more stylesofgames (before there was fantasy, now we have fantasy, sci fi, we've had historicial, we have space, we have strange space/fantasy mixtures, we have superhero...) more choice in how you play than in many past games, more people, more investors.... IMO there is just far far more choice today than there was in the past. Developers have a hell of lot harder time IMO attracting people because the competition is so much more fierce.
I specifically talked about professions in respect of eq2, not just gathering
Anyways, the original disagreement was that you mentioned wow as a "game that offers more choice than past games", while i disagreed, claiming that most of the choice it offers is cosmetic and that players are in reality very restricted in their choices, that system being exactly the reason people feel modern wow clones (or "wowified" games, as Tera is in danger of becoming) offer less choice than past mmos of any type. It has nothing to do with playing other games (maybe except of those games as a point of reference) or if it is a AAA title.
Flame on!
Yes it does take money to craft in EQ2 but I get enough for all fuel components and recipes just buy doing rush orders. It takes money to craft in WoW too. So thats a wash.
And compare any single class in old games vs wow, wow gives more choice. Compare a Paladin in EQ, every single one is the same. In WoW you have three choices. Compare a druid in EQ, again every single one isthe same. Wow has three kinds. These aren't cosmetic. They are fundamental differences, they have different stats, require different gear, different enchants and require very different ways to fight. This is hardly cosmetic.
And in leveling, fundamental differences in bg, vs, questing, vs dungeons. Yes you get to the end just the same but they are very different ways of doing it. EQ was grind in the same spot for hours/days. No matter how you slice it WoW offers more customization for your character and more ways to lvl up than EQ.
Ouch, I never thought I would see Kotoku trash SWTOR