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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

 

 

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Comments

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    It is completely possible.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

    I know i may get flamed for this but if TERA can do it with 3rd person how come 1st isnt possible?

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  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

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  • spaceportspaceport CatalunyaPosts: 405Member

    Ill gladly take Darkfall or Mortal online combat over a WOW tab targeting mash fest with 5 skills any day of the week.

     

    Hell it doesn't even have to be like TES SP rpgs.... at least make it like Tera or GW2..

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  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

    Take it as you will, but; Mortal Online

    If a bunch of amatuers can get that close, then seasoned pros can nail it - the problem is that suits do NOT want to invest time/money/effort into creating or licensing an expensive engine - thusly, they went with the HERO one, because it's easy enough to push out a cookie-cutter one in record time. Sad.

    I think the team behind HERO engine are just pimping their product out as much as possible, cutting back on licensing, making it a steal... I mean, why wouldn't they? It's already growing a bit tired because of SW:ToR, imagine what happens when 2-3 games exist that use it and are more "samey" than ANY two games could ever get, even if they tried to.

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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by caremuchless

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

    Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

     

    On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

     

    If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

     

    What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

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  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

    The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by caremuchless


    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

    Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

     

    On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

     

    If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

     

    What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

    The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

    Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

     

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  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by caremuchless

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

     Meridian 59 did it 17 years ago, with slower processors and GPU's as well as dial up internet.

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  • OntblodOntblod ArjeplogPosts: 181Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

    The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

     

    This!

    +1

     

  • TGSOLTGSOL Idaho City, IDPosts: 274Member

    I think if you asked every single TES fan, you'd find that the vast majority of people would rather have a small scale (2-8 player) multiplayer version of something like Skyrim than a generic WoW-esque MMO.

     

    I know I'd choose Skyrim with a few friends over this MMO any day.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

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  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     Some crazy scientist may end up creating a black hole a mile or so under Switzerland.  I'm pretty sure if that's possible, then doing something that's been done numerous times now is also possible.

     

    The funny thing is, the leak never had anything in it about a dev saying that the combat mechanics "weren't possible".  They said that MMO players wouldn't "understand" how to play the game if it used the same "control mechanics", IE: if it was FPS style combat then we wouldn't understand how to play.

    Am I really the only one that understood that they effectively implied that we're all a bunch of brain dead, chimpanzees who wouldn't know how to play a game we've been playing for over a decade if it was made into an MMO.  Or even better, that they're not trying to make the game for ES fans, but for WoW and DAoC fans?

     

    Sadly, I have a feeling that they're also going to proov that consumers are to stupid to realize when a company just slapped a popular brandname on something and without actually giving us the brand that name is associated with.

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

    There are a number of games that have near real time syncing of combat.  Doing it well in a open world isn't impossible but it does present some challanges.  Personally I think Bethsada is probably one of the few companies that has the resources to tackle it but apperantly not the will.

    Elder Scrolls online without a huge open world and without fluid non tab targeting is going to feel odd.  I'm not gonig to bash the game yet until I learn more about it but it still feels like a odd design choice for the developers.  

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

    way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by maskedweasel


    Originally posted by caremuchless


    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

    Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

     

    On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

     

    If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

     

    What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

    The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

    Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

     

    I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

     

    TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

     

    Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

     

    The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

    image

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Sykoleisa


    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

    way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

     

      That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?

    image

  • cloud8521cloud8521 Toronto, ONPosts: 878Member

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

    would you prefer not viable  at a given time due to limitations because of money and possible hardweare restictions?

     

     

     

    also its totally possible in this day and age

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Originally posted by Istavaan


    Originally posted by Sykoleisa


    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

    way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

     

      That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?



    financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

  • SoulOfRazielSoulOfRaziel Porto FerreiraPosts: 405Member Uncommon

    TESO could use a combat based on Mortal Online for exemple... they would just need to develop it a little further and it would be grt

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  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

    Yeah, but there hasn't been a single TES game where you can't switch from a bow to an axe, in order to take on whatever closes that distance. Hell, you could become God-like in any choice of weapons.

    Now, it seems strict class definitions will be in place to make sure that bow-only becomes viable, instead of making the Player think about changing tactics. The problem, though, is it's usually being forced to reload from a previous state that tells you that "you're doing it wrong". Impossible in an MMO, so the devs seem to be opting for the far simpler outlook of "it's impossible to do it wrong, because thats ALL you can do as that character".

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  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


    Originally posted by Istavaan


    Originally posted by Sykoleisa


    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

    way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

     

      That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?



    financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

     

      They have to build their own engine to do NON-FPS combat.  They can't even so much as use variables and math that they've worked on for years making their current combat and all the balancing that goes with it.  Either way they have to pay the same amount of people the same amount of money for basically the same amount of time to produce the game in either fashion.  If anything the non-fps combat is gonna take at least a tiny bit more money to make because now they have to balance all of their current skills and magic, which have been balanced for years around a FPS system, around this new system.

    Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...and the best of THOSE are for FPS combat...by the way), so the overhead isn't changing at all.

    image

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by spaceport

    Ill gladly take Darkfall or Mortal online combat over a WOW tab targeting mash fest with 5 skills any day of the week.

     

    Hell it doesn't even have to be like TES SP rpgs.... at least make it like Tera or GW2..

    Why not play those then?

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