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Raiding Theology, Evidences of the existences and attributes of the raider.
Sykoleisa
Member Posts: 41
in Guild Wars 2
Hi-five's to those who get the title.
I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.
Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.
However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).
Any ideas?
Comments
If you mean something like the original WoW worldbosses. I would love that myself, but even in those fights random people could join the fight and ruin it. Generally they were prevented from doing this by common sense and the fact that the people in the killing raidgroup would be the ones getting all the loot.
This discussion has been replayed about 45 times on these boards, and even more on other GW2 forums.
GW2 does have end-game progression. It's just not a vertical gear treadmill based on repetitive raid farming. There are other types of progression. I know, hard to fathom, but it's true.
Progression centers around content (there will still be TONS of content you haven't done when you reach max level), and is horizontal in terms of character advancement. It's about exploration, completionism, and customization. There will always be more things to collect, more ways to refine your play style through gear, traits, and skills, and more new things to see, rather than doing the same content over and over. By the time people complete the entire world and gain every achievement and title, I'm sure ArenaNet will have added additional events. If not, the high-level events in the open world should offer a lot of replayability, plus all the personal story possibilities with alts.
The reason they won't have instances for large groups is because they don't need them. Period. The whole idea of these highly exclusive cliques of players that raid together militaristically every night grew out of that endgame treadmill design. Without the treadmill, that culture is no longer needed, and an entirely different one will develop. It will be about server community, and about playing with friends and taking part in all the content in the game (because it's ALL available at max level). The traditional MMORPG "raiding guild" won't need to exist in GW2, and will likely go the way of the dinosaurs as more and more players discover they no longer have to endure that crap.
If the militaristic guild and the vertical gear treadmill is the ONLY reason you play these games, GW2 isn't for you. There are any number of games available for your play style.
Those world bosses will be there, they will be part of the major Dynamic events.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Aside the fact that if it requires a huge group then once again we fall back into the old Big Raid dungeons that only a small percentage of people get to see to the end.
So Anet took those big raid dungeons / bosses and put them into the world. Now think of this:
Your guild leader calls to arms all those in your ranks to grab their weapons and prepare for battle against a Shadow Behemoth!! (just an example) In an orginized fashion he orders attacks and formations as you battle this giant creature.
onlookers standing around realize they can help too by rezzing downed allies and throwing a few shots at the boss.
Do you know what kind of epic story gets built when people who are solo, without a guild get to see a well trained guild in action take down a big boss. You'll read things like "And I was there when this guild slain that beast, I even help!" The pride a community can bring to each other by just the encouragement this game gives us to work together and not leave anyone out. Even the little guy, casual player gets to not be left out of the good stuff and who knows it might make him want to learn to be a better player and strive to join your ranks.
I'm all for community building and helping others enjoy their experience more then they might think possible.
Raid bosses
why not let the little guy watch your guild OWN that big nasty? Tyria has Raid style bosses as you indicated you already know best part is nobody can grief you for the boss, KS you or ninja the loot.
Font of Rhand.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I hope they never have instanced large raids. There's a slippery slope. First you have instanced large raids. Then the instanced large raids give uber gear you can't get anywhere else. Then every player is forced to go on instanced large raids repeatedly in order to attain the uber gear. It's very easy for a developer to slide down that slope all the way to the bottom. Just say no.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Never heard the gear treadmill described as being verticle but whatever.
It's not hard to fathom, maybe If you understood where I took the topic title from you wouldn't have assumed that.
Exploration (to an extent), completionism, customisation, collecting things, refine play style through gear, more things to see (to an extent), all happen to be part of raiding as well, congratulations on listing things that are so vague as to be part of almost any rpg, ever.
You don't need games. period. you don't need movies. period. you don't need a car. period. you don't need a plane. period. do you see where your argument was going? I do.
I never said there had to be a treadmill to begin with, why are you assuming that? what I want to do is about being in an area with just my friends/guildmates and killing large boss-like creatures. no one ever had to endure that "crap", your acting like at some point every single video game player was enslaved and forced to work together to defeat bosses to collect loot (I purposely left out the term "loot" in my original post for a reason).
Again, why are you assuming things about my personality? It was implicit in my original post that I understand that there's no treadmill, I could care less for a treadmill.
I might be assuming, but it genuinely makes me feel like you didn't even read my post.
Put it this way, I might like playing halo multiplayer, but that doesn't mean I always want to be playing with my friends as well as random strangers.
You see, this is the kind of ideas I was looking for, thank you.
But just one point, If these instance dungeons do not reward anything that would make them worth doing for people who don't like raiding (such the "best" gear, or guild PvP bonuses) the you are only doing this instance for the fun of it, and as such does only a few people seeing it matter?
I'm not asking for instanced raiding to be a focus of a clearly PvP oriented game, that's just not possible.
In my head I was orignal thinking of rewards being of large quantities of influence for you guild, but this wouldn't work due to being able to spend influence on PvP rewards (IIRC), however I do not see the harm in, say, a bonus damage vs. X-monster type, For example killing a giant dragon would reward with bonus damage vs. dragon type creatures.
I personally would like some kind of pvp dungeon, Darkness Falls anyone? And such a open Dungeon with some kind of PvP would be almost something like a raid... just a lot of more fun, and not about gear grinding.
I'll leave out all the other baggage involved in the raiding discussion since we're clearly speaking different languages here, and just respond to what you explicitly said.
Your original statement was:
The reason why they don't do that is exactly because of the exclusivity. They want to spend their time creating content that everyone can utilize (or at least the biggest majority of players can utilize). Creating instances for large groups would create a barrier to entry for a lot of players, and would mean content that few would ever see.
There's literally no reason at all not to do big boss events in the open world. Other players helping out doesn't HURT you or your guild in any way. The mentality of exclusivity is incompatible with this game.
There are five-man instances only because it's relatively easy for most players to get five people together. Simple as that.
The devs decided that everything over 5 players are "massive content" and massive content should be in the open world.
There are plenty of huge bosses where a 100 players can fight a big monster so why instance it and put a player limit on it?
It's a relatively simple concept. I have friends, I like to play with my friends, I normally don't mind playing with strangers and my friends, but sometimes I do just want to play with my friends....
As countless people have said ( in other threads on this topic ) , locked raiding as you descibed exists in many other games, I don't think it comes down to having 1 or 2 raid instances that break with the mold they have just to keep hardcore raiders happy - they simply are avoiding that entire philosophy.
which IMO is great.
It's a relatively simple concept. I have friends, I like to play with my friends, I normally don't mind playing with strangers and my friends, but sometimes I do just want to play with my friends....
What does it hurt to have other players around?
Yeah, but then you play dungeons.
Sure, you only gets alone time with 4 of your friends at the same time, but frankly is a 40 player raid not really as social as a dungeon anyways.
Sure, I wouldn't complain about a dungeon or 2 with twice the regular number of players, like Vizunah sqaure in GW: Factions but I see no need for actual closed raids. If you are 50 guildies player together and using vent or the guildchat a few extra people who can´t even hear what you say makes little or no difference.
I never used the term hardcore.
I never even implied I wanted raiding such as it exists today.
My question wasn't rhetorical. A bit Socratic, maybe...but not rhetorical.
What does it hurt if other people are around when your guild is playing together?
Yeah. I hear they have those in just about every. other. MMO. in. the. world. Go play one of them.
How about random created dungeons with random created bosses for raiding? That would eliminate the Repetitive boring raid farming term. Dont u think?
invalid point.
because GW2 has it's own play style.
If you say playstyle doesn't matter then I hear there's pvp in the majority of other games in the world, not limited to MMO's.
your move you close minded *****.
It doesn't.
but equally it doesn't hurt for me and my friends/guild to be on our own, which is why I didn't reply, because I feel it's a moot point.
Okay, so if it doesn't hurt, we're fine. They have tons of large-scale open-world content your guild can do together.
It in fact DOES hurt for you and your friends to have exclusive content, as has been explained to you several times now. Creating content exclusively for large groups means that a lot of players won't get to use that content. It's dramatically less efficient development on ArenaNet's part. Why should they spend time and money creating content for only a small percentage of players, when they can instead create content that the vast majority can utilize? Are you and your clique so important that a company should specifically cater to your needs, at the expense of the vast majority of their players? Clearly not.
So it's your contention that every game in existence should cater to you? GW2 has a unique play style, and you should be able to experience it with content specifically designed for your needs and desires, regardless of what it does to or for anyone else. Interesting.
Getting worked up and calling people names doesn't help you get taken seriously.
I
this thread.
I have PvPers telling me to play with the community and make friends.
and I have PvPers telling me that because I have friends we shouldn't have content that anyone with friends can do....
Maybe you never did, but those hardcore will ask for more and more, because they will go through them really fast and ask for gear at the end.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!