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You lost me at Hero Engine

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    Originally posted by Amegashie

    2. performs poorly in small scale PvP
    3. large scale PvP is absolutely unplayable for almost everyone
     
    Until I see some solid evidence to the contrary that's exactly what I'll expect in TES Online.

    In the same spirit, can your provide an evidence that those two listed issues are related to engine and not development team?

  • Sourd420Sourd420 Member Posts: 63

    Originally posted by cloud8521

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1252768/agb-elder-scrolls-online-screenshots-leak

     

     

    it looks cool (graphicly) but i have a feeling it will feel like TOR...

     

    but  it looks nothing like TES, art style is why honestly. too clean too  cartoony.

     

    i always thought of TES as a  photorealistic game (well as close as the tech could get in early games)

    The bottom Picture in that set reminds me of SWTOR marketing Blitz. With their graphics.

  • dontadowdontadow Member UncommonPosts: 1,005

    Originally posted by Onigod

    If only people took some time instead of creating a topic as soon as they have something on there mind this forum would be alot better.

     

    Dont just look at SWTOR ur like swtor failed and that was on the hero engine so everything else will also fail on it. Just look what the hero engine can do, to make it easy for you there are even OLD videos on youtube when you type hero engine landscapes made by people using the engine not by sales people. and it looks 100 times better then what SWTOR ever looked like and these are old videos.

    I think you have to look at SWTOR at the penticle of what the hero engine can do. We're talking EA, Bioware and Lucasarts here.  

    WE're talking a budget of 300 million dollars. No other game is going to put this kind of money into something.  I feel its safe to presume that SWTOR is the best its gonna get, because they aid for the best.  OF course, the game was rushed, could they have done more with another year or two, certainly, but, Elder Scroll has put in just as much time, with less talent and far less money.  

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by nonthal

    SWTOR was based on a much older version of the Hero Engine. I read somewhere (sorry, to lazy to google for an hour trying to find it) that BW drastically changed the engine once they had the license. BW was even quoted at one point that they had made the engine thier own.  It is very pre-mature and shortsighted to judge Elder Scrolls based on that one fact. And even SWTOR has drastically improved its peformance over the last few months (*at least on my system, I usually run 40-80 fps, even in warzones). 

    I am not all hyped on Elder Scrolls, what little I have read hasn't impressed me all that much yet - but I am going to keep an eye on it and not pre-judge it. A lot can happen between now and release.

    You are putting alot of faith in an Engine that was shown to not work as an MMO engine through SWTOR.

    ESO might make Hero Engine work better than Bioware did with SWTOR but really why would they take that chance. Why would you as a gamer and consumer take that chance and buy a game that uses an engine that you are already familiar with through SWTOR. 

    I wish it all the best but once Hero Engine was mentioned, all the hype for ESO went out the window for me personally. And with the bad press, I am not sure it gives any of their investors ease of mind.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207

    Originally posted by dontadow

    Originally posted by Onigod

    If only people took some time instead of creating a topic as soon as they have something on there mind this forum would be alot better.

     

    Dont just look at SWTOR ur like swtor failed and that was on the hero engine so everything else will also fail on it. Just look what the hero engine can do, to make it easy for you there are even OLD videos on youtube when you type hero engine landscapes made by people using the engine not by sales people. and it looks 100 times better then what SWTOR ever looked like and these are old videos.

    I think you have to look at SWTOR at the penticle of what the hero engine can do. We're talking EA, Bioware and Lucasarts here.  

    WE're talking a budget of 300 million dollars. No other game is going to put this kind of money into something.  I feel its safe to presume that SWTOR is the best its gonna get, because they aid for the best.  OF course, the game was rushed, could they have done more with another year or two, certainly, but, Elder Scroll has put in just as much time, with less talent and far less money.  

    not really, biowares priority - great looking cutscenes and imersive story.  Its heavily instanced because they like it that way.  The PVP lags - thats because bioware dont give a shit about PVP so they never worked on the engine for that, 90% of their work will have gone towards making it "the best story ever" the engine, the code base everything will have been geared towards that first, everything else second.

    EA are a known bad producer.  Bioware were a good maker of RPGS althought lately they feel more like "interactive movies" they fall someway behind CDProjekt and Bethseda in my book, they never made a MMO.   Biowares recent RPGs are closed in, linear and on rails why would anyone expect their mmo to be any different.  Bethsedas MMOs are open world (although not sand box like some think).

    The people making the game at Zenimax Online have 2 prior really good mmos under their belts - Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot, they know more about making MMOs than bioware.  They like open world as do Bethseda -so that will be a priority, they like large scale PVP so that engine will be optimised for lots of players on screen.

     

     

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    Originally posted by dontadow

    Originally posted by Onigod

    If only people took some time instead of creating a topic as soon as they have something on there mind this forum would be alot better.

     

    Dont just look at SWTOR ur like swtor failed and that was on the hero engine so everything else will also fail on it. Just look what the hero engine can do, to make it easy for you there are even OLD videos on youtube when you type hero engine landscapes made by people using the engine not by sales people. and it looks 100 times better then what SWTOR ever looked like and these are old videos.

    I think you have to look at SWTOR at the penticle of what the hero engine can do. We're talking EA, Bioware and Lucasarts here.  

    WE're talking a budget of 300 million dollars. No other game is going to put this kind of money into something.  I feel its safe to presume that SWTOR is the best its gonna get, because they aid for the best.  OF course, the game was rushed, could they have done more with another year or two, certainly, but, Elder Scroll has put in just as much time, with less talent and far less money.  

    not really, biowares priority - great looking cutscenes and imersive story.  Its heavily instanced because they like it that way.  The PVP lags - thats because bioware dont give a shit about PVP so they never worked on the engine for that, 90% of their work will have gone towards making it "the best story ever" the engine, the code base everything will have been geared towards that first, everything else second.

    EA are a known bad producer.  Bioware were a good maker of RPGS althought lately they feel more like "interactive movies" they fall someway behind CDProjekt and Bethseda in my book, they never made a MMO.   Biowares recent RPGs are closed in, linear and on rails why would anyone expect their mmo to be any different.  Bethsedas MMOs are open world (although not sand box like some think).

    The people making the game at Zenimax Online have 2 prior really good mmos under their belts - Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot, they know more about making MMOs than bioware.  They like open world as do Bethseda -so that will be a priority, they like large scale PVP so that engine will be optimised for lots of players on screen.

     

     

    Its been stated to be 100 vs 100 vs 100 i think.

    Anyways, this game will never been on my radar if the development is going the direction that its going, if it had another name that has no relation to Elder Scrolls then yeah, the hype would be greater. But because they put Elder Scroll on their title, this game will most likely get lots of bad press that will result in delays after delays.

    BTW we already saw what Hero Engine is capable of through SWTOR and its also not a very comfortable demonstration.

    So with the current two strikes thats going for TESO , I doubt many are as excited as they should be.

    1st strike : Elder Scroll name

    2nd strike: Hero Engine

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • EliandalEliandal Member Posts: 796

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Originally posted by nonthal

    SWTOR was based on a much older version of the Hero Engine. I read somewhere (sorry, to lazy to google for an hour trying to find it) that BW drastically changed the engine once they had the license. BW was even quoted at one point that they had made the engine thier own.  It is very pre-mature and shortsighted to judge Elder Scrolls based on that one fact. And even SWTOR has drastically improved its peformance over the last few months (*at least on my system, I usually run 40-80 fps, even in warzones). 

    I am not all hyped on Elder Scrolls, what little I have read hasn't impressed me all that much yet - but I am going to keep an eye on it and not pre-judge it. A lot can happen between now and release.

    You are putting alot of faith in an Engine that was shown to not work as an MMO engine through SWTOR.

    ESO might make Hero Engine work better than Bioware did with SWTOR but really why would they take that chance. Why would you as a gamer and consumer take that chance and buy a game that uses an engine that you are already familiar with through SWTOR. 

    I wish it all the best but once Hero Engine was mentioned, all the hype for ESO went out the window for me personally. And with the bad press, I am not sure it gives any of their investors ease of mind.

     

      Oh good lord, more of this?  I just can't believe how closed minded people are.  Yes, Bioware purchased a very early version of Hero, and yes, they heavily modified it for their own purposes.  Stating that it 'doesn't work as an MMO engine' only shows how little you actually do know.  Get off the bandwagon for once and think for yourself.

  • Sourd420Sourd420 Member Posts: 63

    Originally posted by Eliandal

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Originally posted by nonthal

    SWTOR was based on a much older version of the Hero Engine. I read somewhere (sorry, to lazy to google for an hour trying to find it) that BW drastically changed the engine once they had the license. BW was even quoted at one point that they had made the engine thier own.  It is very pre-mature and shortsighted to judge Elder Scrolls based on that one fact. And even SWTOR has drastically improved its peformance over the last few months (*at least on my system, I usually run 40-80 fps, even in warzones). 

    I am not all hyped on Elder Scrolls, what little I have read hasn't impressed me all that much yet - but I am going to keep an eye on it and not pre-judge it. A lot can happen between now and release.

    You are putting alot of faith in an Engine that was shown to not work as an MMO engine through SWTOR.

    ESO might make Hero Engine work better than Bioware did with SWTOR but really why would they take that chance. Why would you as a gamer and consumer take that chance and buy a game that uses an engine that you are already familiar with through SWTOR. 

    I wish it all the best but once Hero Engine was mentioned, all the hype for ESO went out the window for me personally. And with the bad press, I am not sure it gives any of their investors ease of mind.

     

      Oh good lord, more of this?  I just can't believe how closed minded people are.  Yes, Bioware purchased a very early version of Hero, and yes, they heavily modified it for their own purposes.  Stating that it 'doesn't work as an MMO engine' only shows how little you actually do know.  Get off the bandwagon for once and think for yourself.

       Oh goood lord, more of this?If it smells like a dead animal, looks like a dead animal, then no way, shape, or form could it be one?

     Could of been better example but after seeing the taxidermy Truck on Reddit hard to leave my mind.

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by Sourd420

    Originally posted by Eliandal

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Originally posted by nonthal

    SWTOR was based on a much older version of the Hero Engine. I read somewhere (sorry, to lazy to google for an hour trying to find it) that BW drastically changed the engine once they had the license. BW was even quoted at one point that they had made the engine thier own.  It is very pre-mature and shortsighted to judge Elder Scrolls based on that one fact. And even SWTOR has drastically improved its peformance over the last few months (*at least on my system, I usually run 40-80 fps, even in warzones). 

    I am not all hyped on Elder Scrolls, what little I have read hasn't impressed me all that much yet - but I am going to keep an eye on it and not pre-judge it. A lot can happen between now and release.

    You are putting alot of faith in an Engine that was shown to not work as an MMO engine through SWTOR.

    ESO might make Hero Engine work better than Bioware did with SWTOR but really why would they take that chance. Why would you as a gamer and consumer take that chance and buy a game that uses an engine that you are already familiar with through SWTOR. 

    I wish it all the best but once Hero Engine was mentioned, all the hype for ESO went out the window for me personally. And with the bad press, I am not sure it gives any of their investors ease of mind.

     

      Oh good lord, more of this?  I just can't believe how closed minded people are.  Yes, Bioware purchased a very early version of Hero, and yes, they heavily modified it for their own purposes.  Stating that it 'doesn't work as an MMO engine' only shows how little you actually do know.  Get off the bandwagon for once and think for yourself.

       Oh goood lord, more of this?If it smells like a dead animal, looks like a dead animal, then no way, shape, or form could it be one?

     Could of been better example but after seeing the taxidermy Truck on Reddit hard to leave my mind.

    I am sorry to not understand Hero Engine as well as you apparently do. And that in your opinion there aren't any better engine out there that they could have used.

    But when the developer of a up and coming MMO using a very popular IP stated that player housing is "too hard to implement in an MMO", and that 'World of Warcraft mechanics" is what they are doing and this is from an apparently well known DAOC developer that has years of experience. Is that because of the Engine, or is it because of the developer.

    Regardless of which, its just not a good way to promote your game that you want people to have faith in.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    BTW we already saw what Hero Engine is capable of through SWTOR and its also not a very comfortable demonstration.

    Can you point out supposed demonstrations and back up that they are related to engine and not SWTOR development team?

  • scott21493scott21493 Member Posts: 61

    People really need to understand what a game engine actually is.  A game engine has nothing to do with actual gameplay.  It has nothing to do with art style.  It also has nothing to do with if the game is a sandbox or a themepark game.  It's a tool to speed up game development and get rid of some of the tedious code so they can get to more important parts of the development.

    Basically an engine doesn't define how a game will look or play.  Developers who are too afraid to do something new do that.

  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     



    Originally posted by Vhaln



    I'm no expert on this, but I think one of the major issues with the Hero Engine's graphical capabilities is that it's really made for smaller enclosed areas, linear paths, and that sort of zone design.  From what I understand, it doesn't render wide open landscapes very well. 


     

    Open landscapes like SWTOR Tatooine?

    Distance rendering and zone size are 2 different things. 1st is a matter of graphics, 2nd is a matter of design and resource costs - exponential scaling.

    Game engine is just a set of tools and while tools might have certain specifics, it still depends on how the tools are used.

    HERO engine is still very solid and well scaling engine. What certain developers do with it is another question.

     

    Yeah, TOR's Tatooine might make a good example of how limited a landscape needs to be, in order for the engine to handle it being wide open.  Aside from just being more taxing, rendering a wide open area does use somewhat different resource juggling than just nearby objects.

     

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Yeah, TOR's Tatooine might make a good example of how limited a landscape needs to be, in order for the engine to handle it being wide open.  Aside from just being more taxing, rendering a wide open area does use somewhat different resource juggling than just nearby objects.
     

    Can you actually elaborate on those limitations and how they are related to the engine and not SWTOR development team?

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Member CommonPosts: 1,096

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     



    Originally posted by Vhaln



    Yeah, TOR's Tatooine might make a good example of how limited a landscape needs to be, in order for the engine to handle it being wide open.  Aside from just being more taxing, rendering a wide open area does use somewhat different resource juggling than just nearby objects.

     


     

    Can you actually elaborate on those limitations and how they are related to the engine and not SWTOR development team?

    Why do you keep asking people to prove how bad the Hero Engine is?

    Why dont you show some proof of how great it is?

    Show us a game that makes full use of the Hero Engine is a spectacular way.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    Originally posted by PyrateLVWhy do you keep asking people to prove how bad the Hero Engine is?

    Because people claim it to be a bad engine, despite not providing anything to support their claims...maybe...?

    I do not need to prove you that Hero engine is great as I am not claiming it is.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838

    Originally posted by Chrome1980

    Originally posted by kishe

    Originally posted by Chrome1980

    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    I said yesterday that no matter how terrible the game looked i would play simply for being an Elder Scrolls game. That was before I found out that the game was running on the Hero Engine, the same terrible engine that TOR is running on. I dont know who in their right mind decided that the hero engine was gods gift to MMO's but its just aweful. Its one of those typical all fluff and no substance engines and its defiently one of the main reasons TOR failed and will be another reason why ESO fails. 

     

    Seriously this is one of the worst things that could have ever happened to ESO, and it just shows that even bethesda can fall victim to some sly marketing by a poor engine development company that couldnt even realease their OWN mmo with the damn engine. Seriously what are all these people thinking? Couldnt they just make their own in house engine? It all goes down to greed I guess, but the with HERO engine being so expensive to purchase and use is it really worth it in the end for these companys?

     

    Thank Talos (SADFACE) for Guild Wars 2...

    You know nothing about hero engine. Go check some screenshots of now dead game called Prime (check videos too). Hero engine is quite upgradable and can even support dx 11. One of upcoming sandbox title (SWG clone) The Repopulation is also based on hero engine and looks great.

    Only because BW failed to optimize hero engine doesn't mean that the engine itself is bad.

    But hey knee jerk reactions are norm on these forums.

     

    Cant support DX11 yet...the support for it is still in the making.

     

    Right now it's still DX9 engine.

    I said it is upgradable means it can be upgraded in future and capable of supprting dx 11.

    but they started making ESO in 2007... 

    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     



    Originally posted by PyrateLV

     

    Why do you keep asking people to prove how bad the Hero Engine is?


     

    Because people claim it to be a bad engine, despite not providing anything to support their claims...maybe...?

    I do not need to prove you that Hero engine is great as I am not claiming it is.

     

    Well, then I guess you could say we're in agreement, that neither of us know for sure.  I just have some doubts about it.  Sure, it might have been all Bioware's fault, but that just seems unlikely to me.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Well, then I guess you could say we're in agreement, that neither of us know for sure.  I just have some doubts about it.  Sure, it might have been all Bioware's fault, but that just seems unlikely to me.

    We are not in agreement.

    You claim something you cannot even remotely back up, I don't. Burden of proof is on your shoulders.

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 963

    HAHAHAHA, you think Hero engine is bad, really??? When is the last time you worked with it!! This made me LOL, you think because the graphics was dumbed down by bioware thats thats what every game looks like, well guess what get your facts right before you comment because you look plain stupid.

     

    SWTOR  did that on purpose because they wanted all there fans to be able to play there game something they said since day 1 of making the game, by the way I was an beta tester eariler on....  I been working with game engines for nealry 20 years and Hero engine is very good engine to work with , I find this to be funny!!

     

    Some people have no idea whta there saying, priceless..

     

     

    people love to bash the Unreal engine to but look 60% of the industry uses it, but thats a bad engine to people claim.. The issue is to many gamers claim certain engines are bad, because  some company use them poorly does not make it so, some companys have no idea how to use any engine properly...

     

    But some are very good at using the engine properly... So to say this is funny stuff... I have used Hero, I have used Unreal, and I like them both sure they have issues they all do, but SWTOR is not a example of what Hero can do , so get your facts straight and try making a game with each engine then come back, and talk, until then, go back under that hole you came out of it.

     

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    As long as it can support Dx 11 in the future, I really don't care.  The engine is fine.

  • bhugbhug Member UncommonPosts: 944

    12.5.5
    i notice alota hatred here for Worldwide Redwood, Calif. Electronic Arts (ea)... The gop globalist presidential candidate in gaming!

    ea founded in 1982, like a certain vulture capitalist has a tendency for buying up companies cheap, gutting them and putting 100s if not THOUSANDS of people that design and build our games out of work:

    they bough Garriott's dx5 1997 Ultima Online through his company Origin then killed off that company in 2004.
    they bought Jacob's dx9 2001 Dark Age of Camelot in 2006 then folded Mythic into BioWare (i.e. '11 SW:ToR) that ea bought out in '07.

    rip: Bullfrog '01, Kesmai '01, Westwood '03, Maxis '04, Origin '04, DICE '06, Pandemic '09, Bright Light '11. tba Ubisoft, anti-trust lawsuits, eula and DRM rootkits.

    Upcoming titles: Command & Conquer: Generals 2, SimCity, Crysis 3.

    edit:
    Game engines
    supposedly PC gaming is making a comeback by overtaking console in revenues last year. ref this year PC pulling in about us$11.6 Billion vs console us$8.4 B. (GM made about us$38 B in the first quarter 2012, exxon made about us$40 B a month! down 11% from last quarter.)

    image

  • gamefreak565gamefreak565 Member UncommonPosts: 14

    The game didn't lose me at the hero engine being used for development. I don't know enough about the system to really give an informed opinion about it's limitations. Where the game lost me is the fact that it's dumping most of, if not all, of the features that make the ES series popular in the first place. Sounds like what they're doing is making a generic MMO and slapping the ES name on it to try and scoop up some extra cash.

  • OnomicOnomic Member Posts: 196

    Swtor didt do the engine any favor, i know i wont buy another hero engine game. It might be the people and not the engine, but i wont take anyones word for it until a game is out and tested by consumers.

  • toddzetoddze Member UncommonPosts: 2,150

    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    HAHAHAHA, you think Hero engine is bad, really??? When is the last time you worked with it!! This made me LOL, you think because the graphics was dumbed down by bioware thats thats what every game looks like, well guess what get your facts right before you comment because you look plain stupid.

     

    SWTOR  did that on purpose because they wanted all there fans to be able to play there game something they said since day 1 of making the game, by the way I was an beta tester eariler on....  I been working with game engines for nealry 20 years and Hero engine is very good engine to work with , I find this to be funny!!

     

    Some people have no idea whta there saying, priceless..

     

     

    people love to bash the Unreal engine to but look 60% of the industry uses it, but thats a bad engine to people claim.. The issue is to many gamers claim certain engines are bad, because  some company use them poorly does not make it so, some companys have no idea how to use any engine properly...

     

    But some are very good at using the engine properly... So to say this is funny stuff... I have used Hero, I have used Unreal, and I like them both sure they have issues they all do, but SWTOR is not a example of what Hero can do , so get your facts straight and try making a game with each engine then come back, and talk, until then, go back under that hole you came out of it.

     

    What a joke

    The hero engine is great for amateurs (like yourself) and little indie companies. But its not meant for professionals or an AAA MMO period. Atleast not a AAA MMO that has any hopes of being an MMO that lasts longer than 90 days.

    Hero engine was red flag  #1 that this MMO is just another cash in on a popular franchise title. The few game details out of GI is red flag #2 that this is another money grab attempt. As long as the GI leak is not some form of a curel joke, which i doubt it is because the hero engine supports that type of pathetic game play quite nicely. This game is nothing more than another MMO cashing in on a popular IP.  Theres nothing that points to any other conclusion. Cutting cost & cutting corners does not equate to a good mmo.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • WarmakerWarmaker Member UncommonPosts: 2,246

    Originally posted by Saerain

    Originally posted by castamir11

    I looked up the Hero Engine wiki.  It says that the released games using this engine are Faxion Online and SWTOR.  How's that for a track record?

    50% is great for a sample size of two.

    I'm pretty sure that something like 95% of us don't know what Faxion Online is.  But everybody knows about SWTOR.  And everybody knows SWTOR got ample development time and crazy, crazy amounts of money to do the job.

    And we all know what the end result is.

    So, yes, only 2 titles have used the Hero Engine.  But consider that nobody knows WTH Faxion Online is, and... well... that "other sample" by SWTOR is a very monumental headstone for the Hero Engine.

    Also consider that it seems SWTOR and TESO began development at roughly the same years, say 2006-2007.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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