EvE has somewhat done it with high-sec/low-sec/0,0. I aways wondered why nobody looked at that particular setup and tried to evolve it.
It's been several years since I played EvE... but I remember being a noob, mining rocks in high security and being extremely possessive of my rocks. I didn't want any other players to come near my mining spots and pilfer my rare rocks... so in this respect EvE wasn't much like GW2 is for me because I didn't want to be around other players and viewed other players as an obstacle to my advancement.
The magic of cooperative play in GW2 doesn't really sink in until you're on the 3rd or 4th quest / event, moving through the starter zone and you realize that you're able to progres despite the zone being packed with dozens of people in each and every area. In fact, not only do these other people not hinder your advancement, joining them in whatever activity they do or having them join you actually helps you to advance even faster... and all of this is done without ever needing to group or even speak to another player. You see someone, you help them, and you don't ever get bitched at for kill stealing or tapping because it simply doesn't exist.
When Aion launched the starter area was a nightmare despite the numerous districts. Dozens of people would stand around waiting for a spawn in hope of tapping and completing their noobie quests so that they could move on. The other players were a hinderance and you began to despise your own team before you even met the enemy team.
It's totally different in GW2. You actually like having your teammates around to help kill things, collect things, and rez you. In GW2, the other players' presence actually makes the game more enjoyable right from the start...
Imagine that, an MMO where being around other players makes the game more enjoyable.
I read some comments and are really disturbing how misguided some people are.
The main idea of a game is not to kill is to entertain the players. The main idea why I joined MMO's was cause of the anime like Hack series and Ragnarok . Where you enter a virtual world to go against AI monsters and having an aventure and look awesome in your armor. I am yet to find a game like that all games I joined are full of profanity, WoWism (belief WoW is the best game ever), and a lot of disrespect which most think is the normal thing to do and acceptable..of course most of this people were born yesterday...The childish immature attitude that you would commonly see in highschool has enter the computer world thanks to computers in school, f2p, and of course WoW. MMO's are now flooded with players without game ethics. Pretty much open pvp or any pvp is just an another excuse for Virtual Bullies currently.
Entertainment can come from many outlets and fear yes is one of them. Fear of entering a danger zone, fear of the unknown. Most of the fear that people speak in this thread is fear that a psychopath projects or bully project to its victims making many good games with excellent storyline just a gateway for them to release this urges. Which many do not enjoy.. a player x below your own level poses no thread to anybody still people gather around to gang rape that player and this is suppose to be fun? for who? Take away the high end armor and weapon and you got a player with no gaming skills that mainly just sucks at playing since most games now are all gear rather than skills.
You can compete against several oponents or barriers and none have to involve killing or to draw blood to make it worthwhile. Yet all I hear here is that pvp is the only type that is which is mainly wrong. Many of us EQ players might remember LoDN(Lost Dungeons of Norraths) that was a fun expansion and it did not matter whether your had x gear on it or x weapon as long as you knew your skills and what to do the group would always finish the dungeon on time. There was no need for parser or third party software to have fun.. I dont think players with current grouping skills can last a dungeon like that.. most rage quit in mid dungeons or are more aware what parsers predict then having faith in your team mates.
Pretty much is sad how the standards and rules of playing an mmo have gone to the pits and now reigns profanity, vulgarity and virtual bullying among other stuff. There is no respect among players of any genre and the genres are so mix up that there is hardly any good game where some one can call it their entertaining home for years to come.
Whether is p2p or f2p people come to play with other people from other walks of life not to play with assholes, bullies, or any body that their primary actions are to offend others. I never understood why some games are ip restricted to NA or use methods unavailable to us NA to join them.. Simply they dont want the crap that some of us in NA got to undergo just to play a game..I would love to play Cabal 2 or Ragnarok 2 legally legit yet I got wait till the NA release and dont know if I wanna put up with the crap that goes on general chat in every beta...
Hope GW2 makes a difference I rather play with a few quality players that respect me and what I do then put up with the crap that right now goes in all MMO's. Overall everyone has the right to be... but most of this people forget that also everyone has the right not to put up with it... is the simple rule why there are pvp server and pve one and not mixing them...If there is no pvp people to play with that is not the pve crowd's fault. If you want to pvp go to a pvp server dont go to a pve server and annoy the people there to duel you.. which is absurd but it happens..
Then you get to end game and realize it is all about 5mans instances and zerg vs zerg vs zerg. Nice post, but Rift was doing this as early as February of last year and got the video to prove it posted on youtube.
You're in super bitter mode arn't you? I used to read what you replied in threads ... I'm not sure what game ruined you so.
+1, it is strange how some people can apparantly enjoy being miserable and try to encourage negativity. this diseased attitude is destroying gaming discussion communities.
The assumption that somehow GW2 created huge groups of people doing stuff is pure idiocy or a SEVERELYYYYY narrow minded view of mmorpg's. Sorry I have to be the one to give the reality check here.
Was there a auto group feature? Could you press a button and be in a raid group??
Yes, there is a button for auto group and enter in a raid full of people... its called LOGIN button.
Actually there was a logical reason these mechanics were put into games in the first place.
When you are making a product usually your main goal is going to be making money. And with a subscription based model your goal would be to extend that subscription as long as possible. So you have to think what is the goal of players, who play online games. Typically achieving some height of power, fancy armor, kill interesting mobs, or something similar, and after that point will stop playing (and paying). So we want to extend them getting to that point as long as possible without making them so frustrated with us that they quit.
This are why online games tend to have alot of uneccisary travel or longer travel, loading times, meaningless chores, etc. But another great way to extend time is to create these bottlenecks of progress. But if you as a developer put in to many of these bottlenecks the player may just say screw this game and quit.
So a clever solution is to have the players slow down eachother. This solution is really the best of both worlds for the game company because not only does it slow down the players (thus extending their subscription) but it also redirects that anger from the game company to another player. Thus usually keeping the player from quitting because they will just blame xplayerx for the situation. This kind of redirection of anger and distraction happens all the time in real life not just games. People have a tendancy to blame things they see in front of them rather than see the system making them act a certian way.
And this is what is wrong with subscription based games. Their main purpose is to keep you busy and waste your time not to entertain you. And thre is an important difference between the two.
And those of you who think that every aspect of games or anything where huge sums of money are at stake are not this well thought out are deluding yourself.
In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers. They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics. Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs.
Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs.
Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves.
You didnt play rift DE? or Warhammer online PQs? right?, guess not. People really believe that gw2 is new and revolutionary, wake up guys, it getting really annoying tbh.
Just as every great game does GW2 is great, to me, because it takes good elements from other games and does them better. Every game simply takes elements before it and rehashes them with bits of new.
So, that being said, within MMO's and games in general the game is new and revolutionary. At least to us. So scoop your hate-mud out of our fan-cake .
Also, if you haven't noticed your in a room full of GW2 fans. Basically your that guy at a science conference telling everyone to "wake up" and see the aliens.
Actually there was a logical reason these mechanics were put into games in the first place.
When you are making a product usually your main goal is going to be making money. And with a subscription based model your goal would be to extend that subscription as long as possible. So you have to think what is the goal of players, who play online games. Typically achieving some height of power, fancy armor, kill interesting mobs, or something similar, and after that point will stop playing (and paying). So we want to extend them getting to that point as long as possible without making them so frustrated with us that they quit.
This are why online games tend to have alot of uneccisary travel or longer travel, loading times, meaningless chores, etc. But another great way to extend time is to create these bottlenecks of progress. But if you as a developer put in to many of these bottlenecks the player may just say screw this game and quit.
So a clever solution is to have the players slow down eachother. This solution is really the best of both worlds for the game company because not only does it slow down the players (thus extending their subscription) but it also redirects that anger from the game company to another player. Thus usually keeping the player from quitting because they will just blame xplayerx for the situation. This kind of redirection of anger and distraction happens all the time in real life not just games. People have a tendancy to blame things they see in front of them rather than see the system making them act a certian way.
And this is what is wrong with subscription based games. Their main purpose is to keep you busy and waste your time not to entertain you. And thre is an important difference between the two.
And those of you who think that every aspect of games or anything where huge sums of money are at stake are not this well thought out are deluding yourself.
Did you read about this stroke of brilliance of having the other players slow down a player? Or did you discover this yourself? It may in fact be the main reason why P2P games always seem to turn into boring repetitve gameplay at one point or another. It is designed to annoy you, without you taking notice too much.
Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill, exct..... But it is nice to see that most of you have found heaven and peace in this game. To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap
If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.
Cmon! It is not Oprah show and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way
Yes you do. You need to admit it. You want my shoulder to cry on. Why else would you be trolling the forums of games you're not going to play if not to chase my shoulder to cry on?
And, to be honest, I doubt we'll ever see a Guild Wars game without some highly competitive and fun PvP.
Ah you have some highly competitive pvp in gw??? I never heard for some competition in first gw like they have in wow where you can earn really good money if you are in top arena team. So who is the best playera or best team in old gw??
You must have blinders on- GW1 had a significantly better showing as an esport/competitive game than WoW arenas ever managed to. They had two separate World Championship tournaments with major cash prizes, as well as smaller monthly tournament cycles with other rewards like video cards for the winners. As for the best teams, Rebel Rising [Rawr] is generally considered the top all-time guild, as they won the monthly championship tournaments 5 or 6 times. A lot of other guilds as well as some of their players are well-known as well. I stopped following it a few years ago, so I don't know what the current status is. However, even years after I stopped playing GW1, I still remember watching Bloodlight Eyes and Last of Master from the Last Pride[EviL] dominate people in the factions championship.
GW1 had tournament seasons with real-life prizes and awards, and a strongly competitive environment with real competitive support and features like Observer Mode and built-in tournament support. WoW arenas were basically dead on arrival in the e-sport competitive scene, since they had no support for casters/observers, no way to hold tournaments, and the PvP was 90% gear and class matchup, with actual player skill being negligible in determining the outcome of a match. GW1 was a game with very strong PvP support- most of it's criticism that it gets from sites like this one is that it's PvE was lacking because of the focus of the game around PvP. It had a low level cap and didn't offer much in the way of power progression for characters in order to have everybody be on a level playing field for PvP. It offered more gametypes and modes, and had skill-based PvP instead of the gear-based PvP you'll find in WoW or other MMO's.
Back to the main topic of the thread, I'm glad that GW2 allows everyone to play together and enjoy themselves in the portion of the game that is meant for that. As for the complaints that you can't create a "Evil Orc Thief" and kill other players, other themeparks don't let you do that either- other than faction warfare. However, the complaints most people have that GW2 is resolving isn't that they have to fight against players from other factions, but rather that they have to compete against players of their own faction to do anything. The game mechanics of those games prevent you from fighting or do anything back to players that decide to grief you and steal your kills/nodes/whatever. Even players that aren't intentionally griefing in these games can make it harder for you to play the game because they're trying to kill the same mobs for their quests and gather the same nodes for their crafting profession, and having them around you slows you down. GW2 makes it so having other players around helps you out rather than hurts you, instead of having game-enforced allies that you can't do anything to, but who can happily spend their time preventing you from doing what you want to.
Wau! So many nice emotions and holding hands together, happy jumping on the fields and kissing enemies. No more bad ninja boys, it is real dream and hideout for people who want to make some cyber friends. Well -BORIIINGGGG! In my life i have many friends and i don't want you to be my game pal, that is the reason why i play eve online, so i can cheat, kill, exct..... But it is nice to see that most of you have found heaven and peace in this game. To OP - THIS IS GAME and if i kill or cheat anyone it is because of fun, don't take any game to serious. You know at the end you do kill in this game!! So stop with flower power crap
If you were as manly as your posts give the illusion of being you'd be fine with taking your PvP urges to the Mists where people expect it. I have to admit... I did enjoy Eve for awhile. Got one character producing tengus, another flying them. Just got boring after awhile.
Cmon! It is not Oprah show and i really don't want to cry on your shoulder, it is more american way of showing emotions. In few years we will have mmo's without killing if we continue this way
Yes you do. You need to admit it. You want my shoulder to cry on. Why else would you be trolling the forums of games you're not going to play if not to chase my shoulder to cry on?
And, to be honest, I doubt we'll ever see a Guild Wars game without some highly competitive and fun PvP.
Ah you have some highly competitive pvp in gw??? I never heard for some competition in first gw like they have in wow where you can earn really good money if you are in top arena team. So who is the best playera or best team in old gw??
You must have blinders on- GW1 had a significantly better showing as an esport/competitive game than WoW arenas ever managed to. They had two separate World Championship tournaments with major cash prizes, as well as smaller monthly tournament cycles with other rewards like video cards for the winners. As for the best teams, Rebel Rising [Rawr] is generally considered the top all-time guild, as they won the monthly championship tournaments 5 or 6 times. A lot of other guilds as well as some of their players are well-known as well. I stopped following it a few years ago, so I don't know what the current status is. However, even years after I stopped playing GW1, I still remember watching Bloodlight Eyes and Last of Master from the Last Pride[EviL] dominate people in the factions championship.
GW1 had tournament seasons with real-life prizes and awards, and a strongly competitive environment with real competitive support and features like Observer Mode and built-in tournament support. WoW arenas were basically dead on arrival in the e-sport competitive scene, since they had no support for casters/observers, no way to hold tournaments, and the PvP was 90% gear and class matchup, with actual player skill being negligible in determining the outcome of a match. GW1 was a game with very strong PvP support- most of it's criticism that it gets from sites like this one is that it's PvE was lacking because of the focus of the game around PvP. It had a low level cap and didn't offer much in the way of power progression for characters in order to have everybody be on a level playing field for PvP. It offered more gametypes and modes, and had skill-based PvP instead of the gear-based PvP you'll find in WoW or other MMO's.
Back to the main topic of the thread, I'm glad that GW2 allows everyone to play together and enjoy themselves in the portion of the game that is meant for that. As for the complaints that you can't create a "Evil Orc Thief" and kill other players, other themeparks don't let you do that either- other than faction warfare. However, the complaints most people have that GW2 is resolving isn't that they have to fight against players from other factions, but rather that they have to compete against players of their own faction to do anything. The game mechanics of those games prevent you from fighting or do anything back to players that decide to grief you and steal your kills/nodes/whatever. Even players that aren't intentionally griefing in these games can make it harder for you to play the game because they're trying to kill the same mobs for their quests and gather the same nodes for their crafting profession, and having them around you slows you down. GW2 makes it so having other players around helps you out rather than hurts you, instead of having game-enforced allies that you can't do anything to, but who can happily spend their time preventing you from doing what you want to.
Just to weigh in, he's right about the GW thing. GW1 had a huge E-sport following for a little while there. WoW never even made it on the E-sport radar to be honest. Nobody ever tried to play that game as an E-sport. Competitively to some degree? yes, for small tournament pots. An E-sport involves casters, audience, sponsors, REAL money (not chump change) and strong competition.
Actually...its kind of sad you even brought up WoW as "serious compeition" to be honest, because anyone who's involved in the competitive scene of gaming at all knows that WoW was never professional you could only earn small tournament winnings. GW1 was, for a wee bit. Actually I could tell you a sweeping list of GW1 players that were pro, had sponsors and audience following. As well as a few teams. That doesn't really matter now though. Its done and gone.
Now that I think about it, I randomly helped out people just for the sheer fact that I was welcomed to. I remember specifically a group of low levels that tried taking on the bandit camp and the bandit lieutenant. They were having a bit of trouble. All I was doing was traveling through the cave to get to the other side but I stopped to help them reach their goal. I didn't really think of it all that much, I just sort of did it as second nature. Good point you've made OP.
Now that I think about it, I randomly helped out people just for the sheer fact that I was welcomed to. I remember specifically a group of low levels that tried taking on the bandit camp and the bandit lieutenant. They were having a bit of trouble. All I was doing was traveling through the cave to get to the other side but I stopped to help them reach their goal. I didn't really think of it all that much, I just sort of did it as second nature. Good point you've made OP.
QFT. Found myself doing this quite a bit...you jsut would be wandering around, seeing people in trouble, and actually help them. The game rewards you for any contribution you make, so oddly enough, we stop saying "That's his problem"
On the flipside though, I did see some instances of mob training. Since mobs like to aggro whoever is closest to them, running them by someone can deposit nasties on that person's face.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Your english is broken up so it may be hard for me to understand, but from what I gathered you don't think there is enough killing one another or pvp?
GW2 you have many, many options to choose from whatever you might want to do in pvp. I'm sure if you did some research you would know this. There is a huge playing field called WvWvW that allows you to do as much killing as you want. Perhaps you have read about it. Blah, just read this.
I think you are just upset you can't gank people in PvE perhaps. Just level 1 to 80 in WvWvW!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
so, you play to grief? you know wow is still running, right?
lamest part of mmos ever.. griefing. if that's what you like... well.... you know what comes next eh? no need to actually say it
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Your english is broken up so it may be hard for me to understand, but from what I gathered you don't think there is enough killing one another or pvp?
GW2 you have many, many options to choose from whatever you might want to do in pvp. I'm sure if you did some research you would know this. There is a huge playing field called WvWvW that allows you to do as much killing as you want. Perhaps you have read about it. Blah, just read this.
I think you are just upset you can't gank people in PvE perhaps. Just level 1 to 80 in WvWvW!
Hehe i can tell you a secret ,this planet is called Earth not Great Britain.
huge playfield called WvWvW ?
why should i join that and kill peeps without a reason ? kill peeps who i dont even know and never see again,i dont even know what they do ,i dont have any reason to kill them,and theres a safezone where i can kill them ? and thats WvWvW ?
Originally posted by ForumPvP Hehe i can tell you a secret ,this planet is called Earth not Great Britain. huge playfield called WvWvW ? why should i join that and kill peeps without a reason ? kill peeps who i dont even know and never see again,i dont even know what they do ,i dont have any reason to kill them,and theres a safezone where i can kill them ? and thats WvWvW ?
No reason to fight?
What about taking over keeps? Building / destroying seige equipment? Gaining prestige and buffs for your server? Building up Glory points to buy cool-looking armor? Server pride? Challenge?
Fun?
None of these would be reasons to kill folks in WvW, in your opinion? What exactly does a developer of a PvP game need to give you in order to make you want to play? Some arbitrary lore about the "bad" guys and "good" guys?
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Not really.
I knew someone once who was given anything he wanted, whenever he asked or screamed for it, just as fast as he could demand it because he wanted it . . . right now!
He grew up into a fat, sloppy slob with no social skills, was perpetually unhappy with life, didn't know how to deal with adversity or challenges, reverted to complaining and whining over everything, didn't attract any girls for sure, and basically missed out on all the things that make life great.
Because of such a "simple" thing: He was handed everything he demanded be given to him.
Hehe i can tell you a secret ,this planet is called Earth not Great Britain.
huge playfield called WvWvW ?
why should i join that and kill peeps without a reason ? kill peeps who i dont even know and never see again,i dont even know what they do ,i dont have any reason to kill them,and theres a safezone where i can kill them ? and thats WvWvW ?
Three words for you. "Dont play then".
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Not really.
I knew someone once who was given anything he wanted, whenever he asked or screamed for it, just as fast as he could demand it because he wanted it . . . right now!
He grew up into a fat, sloppy slob with no social skills, was perpetually unhappy with life, didn't know how to deal with adversity or challenges, reverted to complaining and whining over everything, didn't attract any girls for sure, and basically missed out on all the things that make life great.
Because of such a "simple" thing: He was handed everything he demanded be given to him.
yea, GW2 sounds to be exactly that,when theres someone screaming ,all i can do is help him and give him what he wants,i cant do anything else, I cant give him a lesson.
i actually has an boss event with like 30 people and people who got down, got shielded and ressed...not because people would get better rewards, but because they know it goes faster and more efficient with people who live, because you dont get more loot if you let people die..and thats yust freaking awesome
I didnt need GW2 to come out to help people around me......if i wanted to help i did....no matter the game......i helped people in UO, AC2, WOW, EQ2 and plenty more.
IF people realy need the mecanics of the game to actually ( almost) "force" you into helping people in your realm then that says alot about you as a person imho
My 2 copperz.
Thats the point gw2 stimulate u to be friendly and i think its really nice but if u dont want to u dont need...
In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers. They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics. Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs.
Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs.
Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves.
Yep. That is why I am tired of hearing "why is GW2 so revolutionary? Everything it has comes from other mmorpgs blah blah". What OP has so fluently talked about, is what really makes the game revolutionary in full sense of the word.
All mechanics in GW2 are evolutionary in one way or another. However, the way the game actually change's people's mindset in interacting with others in order to achieve common goals throughout the whole content of open pve, is really what makes the game revolutionary. Not a single mmo in the past attempted to completely eliminate the idea of kill stealing/loot stealing/exp stealing in the past where everyone actually works together for common goals throughout the entire gaming experience.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Not really.
I knew someone once who was given anything he wanted, whenever he asked or screamed for it, just as fast as he could demand it because he wanted it . . . right now!
He grew up into a fat, sloppy slob with no social skills, was perpetually unhappy with life, didn't know how to deal with adversity or challenges, reverted to complaining and whining over everything, didn't attract any girls for sure, and basically missed out on all the things that make life great.
Because of such a "simple" thing: He was handed everything he demanded be given to him.
yea, GW2 sounds to be exactly that,when theres someone screaming ,all i can do is help him and give him what he wants,i cant do anything else, I cant give him a lesson.
What lesson could you give him? You will teach him what exactly by not helping him? In real life people help each other to make things go smoother. You learn lessons by being helped by others in the first place. You were helped by your mother and father to teach you right from wrong. You were helped by teachers to learn mulitple things. You were helped by your co workers on how to do your job properly. Etc... You learn by actually being helped by people all the time. Only lesson I can see you giving is teaching the guy that you will be a dick ingame and should not expect help from you. Hell, to even avoid you. Which makes you anti-social.
Hell, this does not even just encompass GW2. This is real life in general. You not helping and being nonchalant towards everything will just not make you any friends.
I agree with the TC completely. For those who want serious competition there's always PvP. And the fact that people get rewarded for acting like jerks in PvE just feels wrong. PvE should encourage co-op and not simply by giving you unsoloable objectives.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Originally posted by Istavaan But it just highlights how greedy and self absorbed we humans are.
Now let's don't blame players for the mistakes repeatedly made by developers. You can't encourage meaningless "competition" and hope people will be nice to each other. A typical MMO is a huge time investment even under the best circumstances. And dealing with KS or racing towards a resource node doesn't make things better.
Poor design is poor.
Originally posted by Borluc So to be blunt, you're still "an asshole", you just don't have the motivation to be one in this game.
Human behavior is all about motivation, my friend. Nobody is a natural born "asshole" and there's wisdom in avoiding situations that require you to be one.
Originally posted by BigHatLogan The thing is, elements that many people consider greifing make games more challenging.
Annoying != challenging.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Comments
It's been several years since I played EvE... but I remember being a noob, mining rocks in high security and being extremely possessive of my rocks. I didn't want any other players to come near my mining spots and pilfer my rare rocks... so in this respect EvE wasn't much like GW2 is for me because I didn't want to be around other players and viewed other players as an obstacle to my advancement.
The magic of cooperative play in GW2 doesn't really sink in until you're on the 3rd or 4th quest / event, moving through the starter zone and you realize that you're able to progres despite the zone being packed with dozens of people in each and every area. In fact, not only do these other people not hinder your advancement, joining them in whatever activity they do or having them join you actually helps you to advance even faster... and all of this is done without ever needing to group or even speak to another player. You see someone, you help them, and you don't ever get bitched at for kill stealing or tapping because it simply doesn't exist.
When Aion launched the starter area was a nightmare despite the numerous districts. Dozens of people would stand around waiting for a spawn in hope of tapping and completing their noobie quests so that they could move on. The other players were a hinderance and you began to despise your own team before you even met the enemy team.
It's totally different in GW2. You actually like having your teammates around to help kill things, collect things, and rez you. In GW2, the other players' presence actually makes the game more enjoyable right from the start...
Imagine that, an MMO where being around other players makes the game more enjoyable.
I read some comments and are really disturbing how misguided some people are.
The main idea of a game is not to kill is to entertain the players. The main idea why I joined MMO's was cause of the anime like Hack series and Ragnarok . Where you enter a virtual world to go against AI monsters and having an aventure and look awesome in your armor. I am yet to find a game like that all games I joined are full of profanity, WoWism (belief WoW is the best game ever), and a lot of disrespect which most think is the normal thing to do and acceptable..of course most of this people were born yesterday...The childish immature attitude that you would commonly see in highschool has enter the computer world thanks to computers in school, f2p, and of course WoW. MMO's are now flooded with players without game ethics. Pretty much open pvp or any pvp is just an another excuse for Virtual Bullies currently.
Entertainment can come from many outlets and fear yes is one of them. Fear of entering a danger zone, fear of the unknown. Most of the fear that people speak in this thread is fear that a psychopath projects or bully project to its victims making many good games with excellent storyline just a gateway for them to release this urges. Which many do not enjoy.. a player x below your own level poses no thread to anybody still people gather around to gang rape that player and this is suppose to be fun? for who? Take away the high end armor and weapon and you got a player with no gaming skills that mainly just sucks at playing since most games now are all gear rather than skills.
You can compete against several oponents or barriers and none have to involve killing or to draw blood to make it worthwhile. Yet all I hear here is that pvp is the only type that is which is mainly wrong. Many of us EQ players might remember LoDN(Lost Dungeons of Norraths) that was a fun expansion and it did not matter whether your had x gear on it or x weapon as long as you knew your skills and what to do the group would always finish the dungeon on time. There was no need for parser or third party software to have fun.. I dont think players with current grouping skills can last a dungeon like that.. most rage quit in mid dungeons or are more aware what parsers predict then having faith in your team mates.
Pretty much is sad how the standards and rules of playing an mmo have gone to the pits and now reigns profanity, vulgarity and virtual bullying among other stuff. There is no respect among players of any genre and the genres are so mix up that there is hardly any good game where some one can call it their entertaining home for years to come.
Whether is p2p or f2p people come to play with other people from other walks of life not to play with assholes, bullies, or any body that their primary actions are to offend others. I never understood why some games are ip restricted to NA or use methods unavailable to us NA to join them.. Simply they dont want the crap that some of us in NA got to undergo just to play a game..I would love to play Cabal 2 or Ragnarok 2 legally legit yet I got wait till the NA release and dont know if I wanna put up with the crap that goes on general chat in every beta...
Hope GW2 makes a difference I rather play with a few quality players that respect me and what I do then put up with the crap that right now goes in all MMO's. Overall everyone has the right to be... but most of this people forget that also everyone has the right not to put up with it... is the simple rule why there are pvp server and pve one and not mixing them...If there is no pvp people to play with that is not the pve crowd's fault. If you want to pvp go to a pvp server dont go to a pve server and annoy the people there to duel you.. which is absurd but it happens..
Yes, there is a button for auto group and enter in a raid full of people... its called LOGIN button.
Actually there was a logical reason these mechanics were put into games in the first place.
When you are making a product usually your main goal is going to be making money. And with a subscription based model your goal would be to extend that subscription as long as possible. So you have to think what is the goal of players, who play online games. Typically achieving some height of power, fancy armor, kill interesting mobs, or something similar, and after that point will stop playing (and paying). So we want to extend them getting to that point as long as possible without making them so frustrated with us that they quit.
This are why online games tend to have alot of uneccisary travel or longer travel, loading times, meaningless chores, etc. But another great way to extend time is to create these bottlenecks of progress. But if you as a developer put in to many of these bottlenecks the player may just say screw this game and quit.
So a clever solution is to have the players slow down eachother. This solution is really the best of both worlds for the game company because not only does it slow down the players (thus extending their subscription) but it also redirects that anger from the game company to another player. Thus usually keeping the player from quitting because they will just blame xplayerx for the situation. This kind of redirection of anger and distraction happens all the time in real life not just games. People have a tendancy to blame things they see in front of them rather than see the system making them act a certian way.
And this is what is wrong with subscription based games. Their main purpose is to keep you busy and waste your time not to entertain you. And thre is an important difference between the two.
And those of you who think that every aspect of games or anything where huge sums of money are at stake are not this well thought out are deluding yourself.
Just as every great game does GW2 is great, to me, because it takes good elements from other games and does them better. Every game simply takes elements before it and rehashes them with bits of new.
So, that being said, within MMO's and games in general the game is new and revolutionary. At least to us. So scoop your hate-mud out of our fan-cake
.
Also, if you haven't noticed your in a room full of GW2 fans. Basically your that guy at a science conference telling everyone to "wake up" and see the aliens.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Did you read about this stroke of brilliance of having the other players slow down a player? Or did you discover this yourself? It may in fact be the main reason why P2P games always seem to turn into boring repetitve gameplay at one point or another. It is designed to annoy you, without you taking notice too much.
You must have blinders on- GW1 had a significantly better showing as an esport/competitive game than WoW arenas ever managed to. They had two separate World Championship tournaments with major cash prizes, as well as smaller monthly tournament cycles with other rewards like video cards for the winners. As for the best teams, Rebel Rising [Rawr] is generally considered the top all-time guild, as they won the monthly championship tournaments 5 or 6 times. A lot of other guilds as well as some of their players are well-known as well. I stopped following it a few years ago, so I don't know what the current status is. However, even years after I stopped playing GW1, I still remember watching Bloodlight Eyes and Last of Master from the Last Pride[EviL] dominate people in the factions championship.
GW1 had tournament seasons with real-life prizes and awards, and a strongly competitive environment with real competitive support and features like Observer Mode and built-in tournament support. WoW arenas were basically dead on arrival in the e-sport competitive scene, since they had no support for casters/observers, no way to hold tournaments, and the PvP was 90% gear and class matchup, with actual player skill being negligible in determining the outcome of a match. GW1 was a game with very strong PvP support- most of it's criticism that it gets from sites like this one is that it's PvE was lacking because of the focus of the game around PvP. It had a low level cap and didn't offer much in the way of power progression for characters in order to have everybody be on a level playing field for PvP. It offered more gametypes and modes, and had skill-based PvP instead of the gear-based PvP you'll find in WoW or other MMO's.
Back to the main topic of the thread, I'm glad that GW2 allows everyone to play together and enjoy themselves in the portion of the game that is meant for that. As for the complaints that you can't create a "Evil Orc Thief" and kill other players, other themeparks don't let you do that either- other than faction warfare. However, the complaints most people have that GW2 is resolving isn't that they have to fight against players from other factions, but rather that they have to compete against players of their own faction to do anything. The game mechanics of those games prevent you from fighting or do anything back to players that decide to grief you and steal your kills/nodes/whatever. Even players that aren't intentionally griefing in these games can make it harder for you to play the game because they're trying to kill the same mobs for their quests and gather the same nodes for their crafting profession, and having them around you slows you down. GW2 makes it so having other players around helps you out rather than hurts you, instead of having game-enforced allies that you can't do anything to, but who can happily spend their time preventing you from doing what you want to.
Just to weigh in, he's right about the GW thing. GW1 had a huge E-sport following for a little while there. WoW never even made it on the E-sport radar to be honest. Nobody ever tried to play that game as an E-sport. Competitively to some degree? yes, for small tournament pots. An E-sport involves casters, audience, sponsors, REAL money (not chump change) and strong competition.
Actually...its kind of sad you even brought up WoW as "serious compeition" to be honest, because anyone who's involved in the competitive scene of gaming at all knows that WoW was never professional you could only earn small tournament winnings. GW1 was, for a wee bit. Actually I could tell you a sweeping list of GW1 players that were pro, had sponsors and audience following. As well as a few teams. That doesn't really matter now though. Its done and gone.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Now that I think about it, I randomly helped out people just for the sheer fact that I was welcomed to. I remember specifically a group of low levels that tried taking on the bandit camp and the bandit lieutenant. They were having a bit of trouble. All I was doing was traveling through the cave to get to the other side but I stopped to help them reach their goal. I didn't really think of it all that much, I just sort of did it as second nature. Good point you've made OP.
QFT. Found myself doing this quite a bit...you jsut would be wandering around, seeing people in trouble, and actually help them. The game rewards you for any contribution you make, so oddly enough, we stop saying "That's his problem"
On the flipside though, I did see some instances of mob training. Since mobs like to aggro whoever is closest to them, running them by someone can deposit nasties on that person's face.
Well, this guy to mention one....
This made me wonder:what kind of product is GW2 ?makes me think all those C64,Amiga,whatever console 2 player,4 player ,multiplayer games which were fun because you were able to steal ,kill ,attack other players or help them,if you wanted to.
those games were for sadists ,anti-social misfits ?
i dont think so.
in GW2 peeps cant do what they want,they are not allowed to do what they want and when they want.
thats pretty much malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits programming than anything else.
Let's internet
Your english is broken up so it may be hard for me to understand, but from what I gathered you don't think there is enough killing one another or pvp?
GW2 you have many, many options to choose from whatever you might want to do in pvp. I'm sure if you did some research you would know this. There is a huge playing field called WvWvW that allows you to do as much killing as you want. Perhaps you have read about it. Blah, just read this.
I think you are just upset you can't gank people in PvE perhaps. Just level 1 to 80 in WvWvW!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
so, you play to grief? you know wow is still running, right?
lamest part of mmos ever.. griefing. if that's what you like... well.... you know what comes next eh? no need to actually say it
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Hehe i can tell you a secret ,this planet is called Earth not Great Britain.
huge playfield called WvWvW ?
why should i join that and kill peeps without a reason ? kill peeps who i dont even know and never see again,i dont even know what they do ,i dont have any reason to kill them,and theres a safezone where i can kill them ? and thats WvWvW ?
Let's internet
No reason to fight?
What about taking over keeps? Building / destroying seige equipment? Gaining prestige and buffs for your server? Building up Glory points to buy cool-looking armor? Server pride? Challenge?
Fun?
None of these would be reasons to kill folks in WvW, in your opinion? What exactly does a developer of a PvP game need to give you in order to make you want to play? Some arbitrary lore about the "bad" guys and "good" guys?
Not really.
I knew someone once who was given anything he wanted, whenever he asked or screamed for it, just as fast as he could demand it because he wanted it . . . right now!
He grew up into a fat, sloppy slob with no social skills, was perpetually unhappy with life, didn't know how to deal with adversity or challenges, reverted to complaining and whining over everything, didn't attract any girls for sure, and basically missed out on all the things that make life great.
Because of such a "simple" thing: He was handed everything he demanded be given to him.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Three words for you. "Dont play then".
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
yea, GW2 sounds to be exactly that,when theres someone screaming ,all i can do is help him and give him what he wants,i cant do anything else, I cant give him a lesson.
Let's internet
i actually has an boss event with like 30 people and people who got down, got shielded and ressed...not because people would get better rewards, but because they know it goes faster and more efficient with people who live, because you dont get more loot if you let people die..and thats yust freaking awesome
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
Thats the point gw2 stimulate u to be friendly and i think its really nice but if u dont want to u dont need...
Yep. That is why I am tired of hearing "why is GW2 so revolutionary? Everything it has comes from other mmorpgs blah blah". What OP has so fluently talked about, is what really makes the game revolutionary in full sense of the word.
All mechanics in GW2 are evolutionary in one way or another. However, the way the game actually change's people's mindset in interacting with others in order to achieve common goals throughout the whole content of open pve, is really what makes the game revolutionary. Not a single mmo in the past attempted to completely eliminate the idea of kill stealing/loot stealing/exp stealing in the past where everyone actually works together for common goals throughout the entire gaming experience.
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
What lesson could you give him? You will teach him what exactly by not helping him? In real life people help each other to make things go smoother. You learn lessons by being helped by others in the first place. You were helped by your mother and father to teach you right from wrong. You were helped by teachers to learn mulitple things. You were helped by your co workers on how to do your job properly. Etc... You learn by actually being helped by people all the time. Only lesson I can see you giving is teaching the guy that you will be a dick ingame and should not expect help from you. Hell, to even avoid you. Which makes you anti-social.
Hell, this does not even just encompass GW2. This is real life in general. You not helping and being nonchalant towards everything will just not make you any friends.
BOOYAKA!
I agree with the TC completely. For those who want serious competition there's always PvP. And the fact that people get rewarded for acting like jerks in PvE just feels wrong. PvE should encourage co-op and not simply by giving you unsoloable objectives.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Poor design is poor.
Human behavior is all about motivation, my friend. Nobody is a natural born "asshole" and there's wisdom in avoiding situations that require you to be one.
Annoying != challenging.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).