Every time I take a break from MMOs then return, it is always a major slap in the face to zone into trade chat and witness the vile venom players spew at each other. After a brief while, of course, I become desensitized to the filth once more--which is in itself a bad thing--and carry on; but it was so refreshing to play an MMO utterly devoid of such vulgarity.
It was equally refreshing to discover cooperation in the field. It was truly wa wonder ot see players resurrecting each other, helping each other fight off mobs they've already "tagged," and grouping on the fly because it was always helpful and never harmful to your personal advancement.
I can live with that - one has to endure enough assholes in "real life" to have to also endure them when playing games they pay for to have good time. If the usual griefer player category doesn't play this game, nobody will miss them.
I understand your sentiment sir, but you really don't speak for everyone. I'm playing a game where I'm routinely attacked and can be looted, yet I go out of my way to help new people all the time, because I know some of them will help me one day.
I want to play GWII and I think they went the right route for THIS game, but it bothers me when people make broad statements about what works and what doesn't. In some games, certain other players are their bad guys and its fun to be a beacon in the darkness.
I'll add that I think its ridiculous to think that you found some deeper truth or meaning about all of gaming because you are starry eyed about the next big mmo. That isn't directed towards anyone in particular. Just a general statement.
You talk to someone who was anti-PK in UO (beta) 17 years ago... so don't lecture me.
I never pretended GW2 found the ultimate truth either, so don't put words in my mouth I never said. Not did I pretend to speak for everyone, actually nobody is forced to play this game if they dislike the way it's made.
Fact is, FFA PvP games are a niche - and they were already a niche back when UO was released, and Origin had to patch in Trammel after EQ started to grab their players to SAVE the game. People like to have the choice, sometimes they feel for some action against other players (PvP), the next days they had a hard day at work and just want to relax without the possibility of being griefed by the first bored teenager camping their corpse. I've learned to accept that, and also as I grew older and had less time to play, to enjoy it.
Now about games with PvE and PvP separated, which GW2 is part of... the problem was that a specific type of players could be "assholes" without any risk of retaliation. Steal a mob instead of waiting your turn, ninja some loot or some resource node when someone else is fighting a mob nearby, all these antisocial behaviors had no negative repercussions, and couldn't have any without making the game FFA PvP and therefore turning it into a niche. Being able to be an "asshole" without negative effects is a bad mechanism for any game, since games are leisure activities people pay for to have fun, not to be griefed.
So yes, GW2 perfected the class/level/PvE with separated PvP model on that part. And you still have consensual PvP for when you really can't urge that need to fight others, and which I plan to participate in a lot, and there you can be the light in the darkness if others if you want to
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I understand your sentiment sir, but you really don't speak for everyone. I'm playing a game where I'm routinely attacked and can be looted, yet I go out of my way to help new people all the time, because I know some of them will help me one day.
I want to play GWII and I think they went the right route for THIS game, but it bothers me when people make broad statements about what works and what doesn't. In some games, certain other players are their bad guys and its fun to be a beacon in the darkness.
I'll add that I think its ridiculous to think that you found some deeper truth or meaning about all of gaming because you are starry eyed about the next big mmo. That isn't directed towards anyone in particular. Just a general statement.
Amen.
I've been playing these games for a really long time, and I have never intentionally stolen a kill or did anything malicious to anybody. However, I will never be happy about sacrificing the freedom that enables others to be able to play however they want. The game needs to be built with checks and balances that allow players to police and handle reputations, but the freedom should never be removed imo.
I wish GW2 and it's players the very best of times ahead, truly, but I hope there's some devs out there that realize that there's a portion of this market, however small it might be, that does not want all of these restrictions on freedom.
It's amusing because GW2 actually did the opposite to the class/level/PvE/separated PvP genre.
GW2 improved freedom.
- You are no longer afraid to help others because you fear it would be taken as griefing.
- You are no longer afraid to take that resource node, because you know you won't negatively affect anyone.
- You are no longer afraid to click the loot window and grab the good stuff, because you know everybody was rewarded and you are stealing from noone.
I understand why people enjoying grief play won't enjoy GW2's mechanisms though. But fact is that in a pure PvE environment, where direct retaliation is not possible by nature, GW2's mechanics improve the freedom of everybody by removing some moral restrictions honest players may have considering the mechanics of past games of the same type. In past games like this (separated PvE/PvP), the honest player was always the screwed player, I don't see how suppressing this is a bad thing.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It's amusing because GW2 actually did the opposite to the class/level/PvE/separated PvP genre.
GW2 improved freedom.
- You are no longer afraid to help others because you fear it would be taken as griefing.
- You are no longer afraid to take that resource node, because you know you won't negatively affect anyone.
- You are no longer afraid to click the loot window and grab the good stuff, because you know everybody was rewarded and you are stealing from noone.
I understand why people enjoying grief play won't enjoy GW2's mechanisms though. But fact is that in a pure PvE environment, where direct retaliation is not possible by nature, GW2's mechanics improve the freedom of everybody by removing some moral restrictions honest players may have considering the mechanics of past games of the same type.
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless. I'm talking about me feeling the fear, no causing it.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
Then you get to end game and realize it is all about 5mans instances and zerg vs zerg vs zerg. Nice post, but Rift was doing this as early as February of last year and got the video to prove it posted on youtube.
You're in super bitter mode arn't you? I used to read what you replied in threads ... I'm not sure what game ruined you so.
+1, it is strange how some people can apparantly enjoy being miserable and try to encourage negativity. this diseased attitude is destroying gaming discussion communities.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The thing is, elements that many people consider greifing make games more challenging. Having to worry about being stabbed in the back means you need to hunt monsters in out of the way areas and watch your back as you fight. I've never had to worry about kill stealing or ninja looting because I tend to play open pvp games. You just kill these people or you die to them. Most MMORPG's have very little challenge in their mobs. A dumb AI really has no chance in taking on a smart player. Other players are what make mmorpg's challenging. Guild Wars always has a nice setup for instanced pvp, and the world pvp turned out pretty fun, but if GW2 was a completely PVE game I would not play it, despite how fun the Dynamic Events can be.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
It's amusing because GW2 actually did the opposite to the class/level/PvE/separated PvP genre.
GW2 improved freedom.
- You are no longer afraid to help others because you fear it would be taken as griefing.
- You are no longer afraid to take that resource node, because you know you won't negatively affect anyone.
- You are no longer afraid to click the loot window and grab the good stuff, because you know everybody was rewarded and you are stealing from noone.
I understand why people enjoying grief play won't enjoy GW2's mechanisms though. But fact is that in a pure PvE environment, where direct retaliation is not possible by nature, GW2's mechanics improve the freedom of everybody by removing some moral restrictions honest players may have considering the mechanics of past games of the same type.
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
To me, GW2 represents a game where community and older school mmorging has been reborn. I also enjoy playing Eve, that represents a different more aggressive culture. It is good and healthy that we have both types of games and that each games rule set guards the type of gaming philosophy they offer. Edit as per Tera.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges. I totally agree with you that removing the possibility of loot/node/mob ninjaing in a FFA PvP game would be restricting freedom. But not in a game of the model of GW2.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Agreed, as per my comments above, you could actually say GW2 is better still because of the charging model. Imagine someone who wants to play Tera because of the looting model, but wants pve and more relexed PVP - well know they can pay 1 subscription and have both Tera and GW2 to play. This is much better than 1 game trying to be both at the same time and comprimising on both - noone is totally happy then..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
To me, GW2 represents a game where community and older school mmorging has been reborn. I also enjoy playing Eve, that represents a different more aggressive culture. It is good and healthy that we have both types of games and that each games rule set guards the type of gaming philosophy they offer. Edit as per Tera.
^ I agree
I just hope both styles remain. Some folks discuss this as the way everything should always be, as if they are the only ones of concern here. Variety is important as the type of mmo player is varied.
I started mmorpgs with M59 and then UO, onto EQ1 and AC1. They all allowed for griefing to some extent and all had the best communities I was ever a part of in these games. The more games try to remove this stuff, the more it hinders the atmosphere, the community and the game as a whole, in my experience. The safer I feel from the antics of "assholes", the less fun I have.
I do not find it fun however if a game allows from griefing without repercussions, and there a lot of games that do this too, which is for the birds imo. There has to be global, social and economical repercussions to be had by the offending party, if anybody should rise against them.
People will always find a way to grief. It will happen in GW2 as well, it always has and always will. The more freedom that is given, the better the chances of such griefing being policed by the players, which to me is the game... it's the fun.
I'm all good with any type of game coming along, I just want some devs to remember us others out here too
I also prefer cooperative play to player-conflict in MMOs, but... here's another perspective:
When helping is not one choice on a scale of actions ranging from "detestable jerkness" to "selfless philantropist", but the default choice per design... I find it's not as meaningful.
I played on PVP servers on an overwhelming majority of the MMOs I played. And I always went out of my way to buff, to res, to heal people... to lend them a hand... instead of, I don't know, ninjaing their resource or stealing their kill. (I even saved a lot of enemy faction players in trouble, heh.) And though not often, *some* players did this for me too. I was grateful, because I knew they could just as easily (more easily, in fact) take advantage of my, ehm, misfortunes.
Actually I remember the particularly "helpful" players keeping each others' names in mind, and giving a /nod as they passed each other out there. That's because they knew both did not exploit, but contributed.
Of course in GW2 there's the choice of simply "not helping", but without its polar opposite, helpfulness just does not seem as precious to me. It also takes away from the range of dramatic experience I can get from the game. :P
Now, I'm not saying I enjoy getting griefed / griefing in games, on the contrary... I love to see cooperation in online games, and on first impression I did enjoy it in GW2...
It's just... a bit Brave New World-y to me, I guess.
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges. I totally agree with you that removing the possibility of loot/node/mob ninjaing in a FFA PvP game would be restricting freedom. But not in a game of the model of GW2.
I wont play GW2 and you know this as we've discussed it before. I am not bashing the game at all, I am against the attitude that all games should move towards this (reread the original post if you want to see where I am directing my conversation).
You say "because you can't do anything about it", like I said I am against that as well, that's not freedom. The griefing has to have repercussions or else it's as restrictive as the freedom in GW2 is.
"OP, you make developers look like bad guys. its ultimately the players choice"
Because players have a choice to play the game or not doesn't change the nature of what the developers have created the past 15-20 years. Perhaps I was a little harsh - developers are just people trying to earn a living, but it's not like the player base hasn't been letting them know that they wanted a friendlier, less elitest, more inclusive and diverse game all this time. Every tiny step forward towards a more casual, friendly, and less exclusive, elitist MMORPG has been met with ranting, raving and derision from the harcore players, and always- always - with a bait-and-switch "new" game from developers.
"Without fear, it's pointless."
All I can say about this attitude is good riddance.
One thing that I LOVED was when a poster on the GW2 beta forums complained about not being able to create an actually evil character; even a street-gutter thief only had noble (or semi-noble) responses in the personal story bits. The ANET rep said, to sum up: "Other games have that. This isn't that kind of game."
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges. I totally agree with you that removing the possibility of loot/node/mob ninjaing in a FFA PvP game would be restricting freedom. But not in a game of the model of GW2.
I wont play GW2 and you know this as we've discussed it before. I am not bashing the game at all, I am against the attitude that all games should move towards this (reread the original post if you want to see where I am directing my conversation).
Totally agree here. PVE/Social Mmorg needs to evolve as does more aggressive PVP style games - We want both as gamers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
"OP, you make developers look like bad guys. its ultimately the players choice"
Because players have a choice to play the game or not doesn't change the nature of what the developers have created the past 15-20 years. Perhaps I was a little harsh - developers are just people trying to earn a living, but it's not like the player base hasn't been letting them know that they wanted a friendlier, less elitest, more inclusive and diverse game all this time. Every tiny step forward towards a more casual, friendly, and less exclusive, elitist MMORPG has been met with ranting, raving and derision from the harcore players, and always- always - with a bait-and-switch "new" game from developers.
"Without fear, it's pointless."
All I can say about this attitude is good riddance.
One thing that I LOVED was when a poster on the GW2 beta forums complained about not being able to create an actually evil character; even a street-gutter thief only had noble (or semi-noble) responses in the personal story bits. The ANET rep said, to sum up: "Other games have that. This isn't that kind of game."
I was talking about me feeling the fear, not causing it... but once again, it;s your way or the highway. This is a very common stance on both extreme sides of this coin, and I am not about to waste time challenging the extremists here.
"OP, you make developers look like bad guys. its ultimately the players choice"
Because players have a choice to play the game or not doesn't change the nature of what the developers have created the past 15-20 years. Perhaps I was a little harsh - developers are just people trying to earn a living, but it's not like the player base hasn't been letting them know that they wanted a friendlier, less elitest, more inclusive and diverse game all this time. Every tiny step forward towards a more casual, friendly, and less exclusive, elitist MMORPG has been met with ranting, raving and derision from the harcore players, and always- always - with a bait-and-switch "new" game from developers.
"Without fear, it's pointless."
All I can say about this attitude is good riddance.
Disagree, I love GW2, PVE, Achievment hunting, love it - its what ive done since day dot. I also Love EVE, where there is a real bite and fear element to the game, you wander into a null zone and the gaming is intense (and i never grief, I hate griefing)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges. I totally agree with you that removing the possibility of loot/node/mob ninjaing in a FFA PvP game would be restricting freedom. But not in a game of the model of GW2.
I wont play GW2 and you know this as we've discussed it before. I am not bashing the game at all, I am against the attitude that all games should move towards this (reread the original post if you want to see where I am directing my conversation).
Totally agree here. PVE/Social Mmorg needs to evolve as does more aggressive PVP style games - We want both as gamers.
I'm with you on this. I like GW2. But I also like my Sandbox and Open PvP games (not always one and the same). No reason we can't have both.
The GW2 beta was certainly a pleasant experience, once I was able to log into it. There wasn't the annoying cesspit of the general chat, there weren't players solo'ing quest side by side, or watching their backs, in case someone from an enemy faction comes around & kills them during PvE. It simply was pleasant.
Like in the Norn area, when I went up a mountain to get a skill-point and was overrun by all the mobs there. When I got to the waypoint to head back up there, I saw 2 other players trying to make their way up their as well. What happened is that we all helped each other. I was an Engineer so I'd toss elixers to buff us and the Warrior was able to tank them for a bit cause of the protection buff I gave. When he went down both me & the other player went to res him and we continued until he reached the Champion to get the skill point. Once we got it, there was a simple /wave and we were on our seperate journeys, occassionally bumping into each other again, due to the Event system.
That's how more MMORPGs should be, in some way. That's Guild Wars 2.
I wont play GW2 and you know this as we've discussed it before. I am not bashing the game at all, I am against the attitude that all games should move towards this (reread the original post if you want to see where I am directing my conversation).
You say "because you can't do anything about it", like I said I am against that as well, that's not freedom. The griefing has to have repercussions or else it's as restrictive as the freedom in GW2 is.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Gonna make it more simple, I know I'm sometimes not clear enough, possibly because English isn't my first language too.
- In other game models, the cooperative mechanics of GW2 would indeed be restrictive and reducing "freedom". Take UO Feluccia, AC1 Darktide, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal (disregarting how bad some of those games were otherwise) and yes, in those games it would restrict freedom, because there are already mechanics built in the game for that.
- In the GW2 model, and I believe also in WoW clone model games, those mechanics can only improve "freedom". I can live without the loot/ninjaing/griefing model one can do nothing about. That's why I think that in THAT model, GW2 did it right and improved general "freedom", and also community. Frustration when you can't fight back is one of the worse of freedom breakers, and the victims are always the players who try to be honest and share. A game where the good people are always the victims and don't have any way to fight back is a game with a flaw.
About loot, this is true for any model anyway. I doubt anyone can argue against the fact that anyone who participated in a fight should be rewarded for it. The "loot whore" model where you arrive at the end of a dungeon without anything when you actually did twice the work of the other party members is flawed since day one (which goes back to EQ). Loot drama sucks in any game, and it's way better to see everybody who fought on your side after a victory leave with a smile.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I found myself really enjoying the cooperative spirit during events. In many fights as a guardian I found myself running about recovering or resing fallen players and before long others started doing it along side me. It became clear that putting several people on a single fallen comrade would help to revcover that person faster.
I have always enjoyed coop game play more than single play which got me really excited and why I bought the game a week and a half before the BWE even before I knew it would get me into the BWE. The guilds themselves are designed for coop participation.
I think GW2 will be the new standard for mising PvE and PVP in a game. I'll certainly not mis these very few hard core PvPers looking for open world full loot games ALL of which have failed miserably in past years.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
everything that I am trying to convey in my posts in this thread, can be summed up in this sentence.
Not everyone who enjoys the freedom that allows a griefer to grief, is a griefer himself (or herself).
You don't even have to defend a dog-eat-dog MMO on those grounds, imo. (edit: by that I mean, it's not necessary to move your defense of a predatory game environment to grounds of personal taste). If a game is designed so that its basic mechanics revolve around survival, then there is no such thing as 'griefing', just choices between individual and mutual survival. Griefing comes into existence when the game suggests to the player that it is about one thing, and it is possible for players to game the mechanics and create a sub-game where making that suggestion out to be a lie is the game for them. There's nothing wrong with 'griefing' on a billiards table. But it's generally not cool to bump a pinball machine while someone else is playing.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
I remember doing such stuff when I started playing WoW almost a decade ago: I did a lot of "grey" quests, because sometimes I just liked to fully explore a zone. Or I did a quest several times, because sombody asked for help. I helped other players as I passed by, etc.
It took a long time until I realised, that all this was completely useless, and that I had to change my playingstyle to be more efficient in "MMO-terms".
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Comments
I have to agree wholeheartedly.
Every time I take a break from MMOs then return, it is always a major slap in the face to zone into trade chat and witness the vile venom players spew at each other. After a brief while, of course, I become desensitized to the filth once more--which is in itself a bad thing--and carry on; but it was so refreshing to play an MMO utterly devoid of such vulgarity.
It was equally refreshing to discover cooperation in the field. It was truly wa wonder ot see players resurrecting each other, helping each other fight off mobs they've already "tagged," and grouping on the fly because it was always helpful and never harmful to your personal advancement.
You talk to someone who was anti-PK in UO (beta) 17 years ago... so don't lecture me.
I never pretended GW2 found the ultimate truth either, so don't put words in my mouth I never said. Not did I pretend to speak for everyone, actually nobody is forced to play this game if they dislike the way it's made.
Fact is, FFA PvP games are a niche - and they were already a niche back when UO was released, and Origin had to patch in Trammel after EQ started to grab their players to SAVE the game. People like to have the choice, sometimes they feel for some action against other players (PvP), the next days they had a hard day at work and just want to relax without the possibility of being griefed by the first bored teenager camping their corpse. I've learned to accept that, and also as I grew older and had less time to play, to enjoy it.
Now about games with PvE and PvP separated, which GW2 is part of... the problem was that a specific type of players could be "assholes" without any risk of retaliation. Steal a mob instead of waiting your turn, ninja some loot or some resource node when someone else is fighting a mob nearby, all these antisocial behaviors had no negative repercussions, and couldn't have any without making the game FFA PvP and therefore turning it into a niche. Being able to be an "asshole" without negative effects is a bad mechanism for any game, since games are leisure activities people pay for to have fun, not to be griefed.
So yes, GW2 perfected the class/level/PvE with separated PvP model on that part. And you still have consensual PvP for when you really can't urge that need to fight others, and which I plan to participate in a lot, and there you can be the light in the darkness if others if you want to
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
OP, you make developers look like bad guys. its ultimately the players choice
Amen.
I've been playing these games for a really long time, and I have never intentionally stolen a kill or did anything malicious to anybody. However, I will never be happy about sacrificing the freedom that enables others to be able to play however they want. The game needs to be built with checks and balances that allow players to police and handle reputations, but the freedom should never be removed imo.
I wish GW2 and it's players the very best of times ahead, truly, but I hope there's some devs out there that realize that there's a portion of this market, however small it might be, that does not want all of these restrictions on freedom.
It's amusing because GW2 actually did the opposite to the class/level/PvE/separated PvP genre.
GW2 improved freedom.
- You are no longer afraid to help others because you fear it would be taken as griefing.
- You are no longer afraid to take that resource node, because you know you won't negatively affect anyone.
- You are no longer afraid to click the loot window and grab the good stuff, because you know everybody was rewarded and you are stealing from noone.
I understand why people enjoying grief play won't enjoy GW2's mechanisms though. But fact is that in a pure PvE environment, where direct retaliation is not possible by nature, GW2's mechanics improve the freedom of everybody by removing some moral restrictions honest players may have considering the mechanics of past games of the same type. In past games like this (separated PvE/PvP), the honest player was always the screwed player, I don't see how suppressing this is a bad thing.
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The fear is a massive part of that freedom for me. Without fear, it's pointless. I'm talking about me feeling the fear, no causing it.
I'm not challenging anybody's view, and I really am happy that GW2 is the game for a lot of people. But removing that fear is anything but increasing the freedom imo, and I can only speak for myself and the people that I regularly play mmo's with.
+1, it is strange how some people can apparantly enjoy being miserable and try to encourage negativity. this diseased attitude is destroying gaming discussion communities.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The thing is, elements that many people consider greifing make games more challenging. Having to worry about being stabbed in the back means you need to hunt monsters in out of the way areas and watch your back as you fight. I've never had to worry about kill stealing or ninja looting because I tend to play open pvp games. You just kill these people or you die to them. Most MMORPG's have very little challenge in their mobs. A dumb AI really has no chance in taking on a smart player. Other players are what make mmorpg's challenging. Guild Wars always has a nice setup for instanced pvp, and the world pvp turned out pretty fun, but if GW2 was a completely PVE game I would not play it, despite how fun the Dynamic Events can be.
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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
To me, GW2 represents a game where community and older school mmorging has been reborn. I also enjoy playing Eve, that represents a different more aggressive culture. It is good and healthy that we have both types of games and that each games rule set guards the type of gaming philosophy they offer. Edit as per Tera.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If I want fear, I don't play a game like GW2. The model just isn't appropriate for it (except eventually in the WvWvW area). And please, having your quest mob ninjaed or your resource node stolen while you fight nearby on a PvE server (or even on a PvP server by someone of your own side) isn't FEAR - it's a broken mechanic, because you can't do anything about it.
The isn't UO Felucia. This isn't AC1 Darktide. And it never intended to be. You're comparing apples and oranges. I totally agree with you that removing the possibility of loot/node/mob ninjaing in a FFA PvP game would be restricting freedom. But not in a game of the model of GW2.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Agreed, as per my comments above, you could actually say GW2 is better still because of the charging model. Imagine someone who wants to play Tera because of the looting model, but wants pve and more relexed PVP - well know they can pay 1 subscription and have both Tera and GW2 to play. This is much better than 1 game trying to be both at the same time and comprimising on both - noone is totally happy then..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
^ I agree
I just hope both styles remain. Some folks discuss this as the way everything should always be, as if they are the only ones of concern here. Variety is important as the type of mmo player is varied.
I started mmorpgs with M59 and then UO, onto EQ1 and AC1. They all allowed for griefing to some extent and all had the best communities I was ever a part of in these games. The more games try to remove this stuff, the more it hinders the atmosphere, the community and the game as a whole, in my experience. The safer I feel from the antics of "assholes", the less fun I have.
I do not find it fun however if a game allows from griefing without repercussions, and there a lot of games that do this too, which is for the birds imo. There has to be global, social and economical repercussions to be had by the offending party, if anybody should rise against them.
People will always find a way to grief. It will happen in GW2 as well, it always has and always will. The more freedom that is given, the better the chances of such griefing being policed by the players, which to me is the game... it's the fun.
I'm all good with any type of game coming along, I just want some devs to remember us others out here too
I also prefer cooperative play to player-conflict in MMOs, but... here's another perspective:
When helping is not one choice on a scale of actions ranging from "detestable jerkness" to "selfless philantropist", but the default choice per design... I find it's not as meaningful.
I played on PVP servers on an overwhelming majority of the MMOs I played. And I always went out of my way to buff, to res, to heal people... to lend them a hand... instead of, I don't know, ninjaing their resource or stealing their kill. (I even saved a lot of enemy faction players in trouble, heh.) And though not often, *some* players did this for me too. I was grateful, because I knew they could just as easily (more easily, in fact) take advantage of my, ehm, misfortunes.
Actually I remember the particularly "helpful" players keeping each others' names in mind, and giving a /nod as they passed each other out there. That's because they knew both did not exploit, but contributed.
Of course in GW2 there's the choice of simply "not helping", but without its polar opposite, helpfulness just does not seem as precious to me. It also takes away from the range of dramatic experience I can get from the game. :P
Now, I'm not saying I enjoy getting griefed / griefing in games, on the contrary... I love to see cooperation in online games, and on first impression I did enjoy it in GW2...
It's just... a bit Brave New World-y to me, I guess.
I wont play GW2 and you know this as we've discussed it before. I am not bashing the game at all, I am against the attitude that all games should move towards this (reread the original post if you want to see where I am directing my conversation).
You say "because you can't do anything about it", like I said I am against that as well, that's not freedom. The griefing has to have repercussions or else it's as restrictive as the freedom in GW2 is.
"OP, you make developers look like bad guys. its ultimately the players choice"
Because players have a choice to play the game or not doesn't change the nature of what the developers have created the past 15-20 years. Perhaps I was a little harsh - developers are just people trying to earn a living, but it's not like the player base hasn't been letting them know that they wanted a friendlier, less elitest, more inclusive and diverse game all this time. Every tiny step forward towards a more casual, friendly, and less exclusive, elitist MMORPG has been met with ranting, raving and derision from the harcore players, and always- always - with a bait-and-switch "new" game from developers.
"Without fear, it's pointless."
All I can say about this attitude is good riddance.
One thing that I LOVED was when a poster on the GW2 beta forums complained about not being able to create an actually evil character; even a street-gutter thief only had noble (or semi-noble) responses in the personal story bits. The ANET rep said, to sum up: "Other games have that. This isn't that kind of game."
everything that I am trying to convey in my posts in this thread, can be summed up in this sentence.
Not everyone who enjoys the freedom that allows a griefer to grief, is a griefer himself (or herself).
Totally agree here. PVE/Social Mmorg needs to evolve as does more aggressive PVP style games - We want both as gamers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I was talking about me feeling the fear, not causing it... but once again, it;s your way or the highway. This is a very common stance on both extreme sides of this coin, and I am not about to waste time challenging the extremists here.
Disagree, I love GW2, PVE, Achievment hunting, love it - its what ive done since day dot. I also Love EVE, where there is a real bite and fear element to the game, you wander into a null zone and the gaming is intense (and i never grief, I hate griefing)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I'm with you on this. I like GW2. But I also like my Sandbox and Open PvP games (not always one and the same). No reason we can't have both.
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The GW2 beta was certainly a pleasant experience, once I was able to log into it. There wasn't the annoying cesspit of the general chat, there weren't players solo'ing quest side by side, or watching their backs, in case someone from an enemy faction comes around & kills them during PvE. It simply was pleasant.
Like in the Norn area, when I went up a mountain to get a skill-point and was overrun by all the mobs there. When I got to the waypoint to head back up there, I saw 2 other players trying to make their way up their as well. What happened is that we all helped each other. I was an Engineer so I'd toss elixers to buff us and the Warrior was able to tank them for a bit cause of the protection buff I gave. When he went down both me & the other player went to res him and we continued until he reached the Champion to get the skill point. Once we got it, there was a simple /wave and we were on our seperate journeys, occassionally bumping into each other again, due to the Event system.
That's how more MMORPGs should be, in some way. That's Guild Wars 2.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Gonna make it more simple, I know I'm sometimes not clear enough, possibly because English isn't my first language too.
- In other game models, the cooperative mechanics of GW2 would indeed be restrictive and reducing "freedom". Take UO Feluccia, AC1 Darktide, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal (disregarting how bad some of those games were otherwise) and yes, in those games it would restrict freedom, because there are already mechanics built in the game for that.
- In the GW2 model, and I believe also in WoW clone model games, those mechanics can only improve "freedom". I can live without the loot/ninjaing/griefing model one can do nothing about. That's why I think that in THAT model, GW2 did it right and improved general "freedom", and also community. Frustration when you can't fight back is one of the worse of freedom breakers, and the victims are always the players who try to be honest and share. A game where the good people are always the victims and don't have any way to fight back is a game with a flaw.
About loot, this is true for any model anyway. I doubt anyone can argue against the fact that anyone who participated in a fight should be rewarded for it. The "loot whore" model where you arrive at the end of a dungeon without anything when you actually did twice the work of the other party members is flawed since day one (which goes back to EQ). Loot drama sucks in any game, and it's way better to see everybody who fought on your side after a victory leave with a smile.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I agree also.
I found myself really enjoying the cooperative spirit during events. In many fights as a guardian I found myself running about recovering or resing fallen players and before long others started doing it along side me. It became clear that putting several people on a single fallen comrade would help to revcover that person faster.
I have always enjoyed coop game play more than single play which got me really excited and why I bought the game a week and a half before the BWE even before I knew it would get me into the BWE. The guilds themselves are designed for coop participation.
I think GW2 will be the new standard for mising PvE and PVP in a game. I'll certainly not mis these very few hard core PvPers looking for open world full loot games ALL of which have failed miserably in past years.
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You don't even have to defend a dog-eat-dog MMO on those grounds, imo. (edit: by that I mean, it's not necessary to move your defense of a predatory game environment to grounds of personal taste). If a game is designed so that its basic mechanics revolve around survival, then there is no such thing as 'griefing', just choices between individual and mutual survival. Griefing comes into existence when the game suggests to the player that it is about one thing, and it is possible for players to game the mechanics and create a sub-game where making that suggestion out to be a lie is the game for them. There's nothing wrong with 'griefing' on a billiards table. But it's generally not cool to bump a pinball machine while someone else is playing.
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I remember doing such stuff when I started playing WoW almost a decade ago: I did a lot of "grey" quests, because sometimes I just liked to fully explore a zone. Or I did a quest several times, because sombody asked for help. I helped other players as I passed by, etc.
It took a long time until I realised, that all this was completely useless, and that I had to change my playingstyle to be more efficient in "MMO-terms".
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