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GW2 is apparently PayToWin based on this video... :(

FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

VideoLink

 

The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

-Keys [edit]

-Apparently keys drop in-game according to posters below, editing this out :P!

 

-XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

 

 

-Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

 

/end rant :(

 

 

That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

 

Thanks for reading!

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

«13456710

Comments

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    That keys you're talking about, they are world drops as well and it was discussed about 1 million times on this forums...

    XP boosts... OH NOES! The person will get to lvl 80 30 mins before I do! Whoah... I could care less since there's no real advantage in gaining levels faster. What's the advantage there? Rushing trough the content faster? I'll see whatever I'll want to see when I want to see it, period... 

    lol... The last one was discussed on even more than 1 million times on this forums... IF you played the game this beta you'd know the value of gold for gems... You didn't even had to play beta, you could've just check the forums in the past few weeks and read up on the numerous discussions going on here... Now back to the gold... You couldn't even get 1 gold for 100 gems... You can exchange your ingame gold for gems (the exchange rate was around 10 silver for 100 gems) and get what ever xp boost or chest key you want... You can ofcourse buy the gems with real money and exchange it for less gold but I don't see the real motivation in that besides buying the blueprints (which don't really cost much) for WvWvW and some other crap like that.... 

    Pay to win indeed, god... -.- 

    Instead of assuming how do the things in the cash shop affect the game you could've do some more reaserch about it and then claim it's a P2W cash shop if you'd dare :D... It's clear to almost everyone who tried the game this weekend how far from P2W this shop is at this very moment.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon

    Mystic Keys drop ingame.. Fact.. this needs to become common knowledge now. Stuff in the mystic chests is fluff anyway and the buffs are nothing that can't be provided in other ways as well (cooking, for example).

    XP boosts do not matter.. here is why: Even if you do over level the content you are currently doing you will be downscaled anyway.. so unless you plan on skipping A LOT of the game it doesn't matter whether you gain levels faster or not. It is only useful for alting really.

    The way the gems vs gold things works is like this. The more gold bought with gems.. the less gold it costs to buy gems. It works hand in hand and benefits both sides of the arguements...

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by korent1991

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    That keys you're talking about, they are world drops as well and it was discussed about 1 million times on this forums...

    XP boosts... OH NOES! The person will get to lvl 80 30 mins before I do! Whoah... I could care less since there's no real advantage in gaining levels faster. What's the advantage there? Rushing trough the content faster? I'll see whatever I'll want to see when I want to see it, period... 

    lol... The last one was discussed on even more than 1 million times on this forums... IF you played the game this beta you'd know the value of gold for gems... You didn't even had to play beta, you could've just check the forums in the past few weeks and read up on the numerous discussions going on here... Now back to the gold... You couldn't even get 1 gold for 100 gems... You can exchange your ingame gold for gems (the exchange rate was around 10 silver for 100 gems) and get what ever xp boost or chest key you want... You can ofcourse buy the gems with real money and exchange it for less gold but I don't see the real motivation in that besides buying the blueprints (which don't really cost much) for WvWvW and some other crap like that.... 

    Pay to win indeed, god... -.- 

    So you're telling me you can't purchase gear off the exchange with gold? No actually you can, so how is that not a motivation? You're completely ignoring the problem here thinking I'm outright trying to troll GW2. I'm trying to point out a legitimate concern here. 

    Yes, XP boosters are pay to win, as is exchanging RL currency for in-game currency, but I will admit (as i said in my OP) that keys I wasn't 100% about. Please post links to point out what you're talking about. Simply saying "has been discussed 1million times on the forum" means nothing!

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • xposeidonxposeidon Sandston, VAPosts: 384Member
    The keys are world drops, I got two of them. You have to do some research man, When the first point in your thread is false it takes all credibility away from your post. Just saying.

    Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

  • NeutorNeutor Jamestown, NCPosts: 101Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

    These also drop out in the world and from those boxes themselves so you DO NOT HAVE TO BUY THEM.  Oh yea you even get at least one from doing your personal quest

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

    How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

    Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

     

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    See red.

     

    If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

    Join us dtguilds.com
  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by Vannor

    Mystic Keys drop ingame.. Fact.. this needs to become common knowledge now. Stuff in the mytic chests is fluff anyone and the buffs are nothing that can't be provided in other ways as well (cooking, for example).

    XP boosts do not matter.. here is why: Even if you do over level the content you are currently doing you will be downscaled anyway.. so unless you plan on skipping A LOT of the game it doesn't matter whether you gain levels faster or not. It is only useful for alting really.

    The way the gems vs gold things works is like this. The more gold bought with gems.. the less gold it costs to buy gems. It works hand in hand and benefits both sides of the arguements...

    XP boosts seem to be a perspective thing, and as such doesn't seem to be something that can be discussed in a single thread. Which leaves me wondering how it can be talked about tbh. Maybe just adding a longer time to them would make them less pay-to-win? Not sure.

     

    As for the gem system it doesn't matter how much the exchange rates work. It will NEVER happen where one side is completely inflated over the other. Additionally, that same exchange rate system does NOTHING to combat the gold inflation that will happen on the normal item-market from people using gems to buy gold. I'm telling you, I've seen this time and time again in the past. Most of whom from Asian Grinders that were being desperate enough to implement such a system only to sink (close) a year later. 9-Dragons was a PERFECT example btw.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • UngoHumungoUngoHumungo Middletown, OHPosts: 518Member
    I received an XP buff from Rytlock for finishing the part of the storyline quest, I picked Karma boosts up out of chest from a rare spawn, I don't think there is anything in the shop which can't be found in the game world....

    There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Calling this game P2W is an insult to P2W games.

    By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.

    I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.

    A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by Neutor

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

    [xp boosters]

    How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell 

    So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.

     

    [stuff about gems to gold]

    Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

     How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?

     

     

     

     

     

    See red.

     

    If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

    I replied in kind.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    <span com_body"="">

    In a cash shop world it's all "pay to win".  That term has been abused to the point where it's meaningless now.  If you're buying something in a cash shop, then you're circumventing normal game play - buying an advantage you would otherwise need to game for.

    It's a cash shop game so I expect that.  Where I have a problem is with store exclusives.  If you can't game for it then, at some level, a portion of the game has become all about the cash shop.

    One thing I consider is how much per month will I end up spending in the cash shop to play the whole game?  If it's more than a monthly sub then it's not worth it to me.

    Finally, I have a reservation about paying an up front cost for a cash shop game that gives you no in game cash for the cost.  Essentially "B2P" and "F2P" are the same in that they're subscription free and have a cash shop to generate revenue.  Why would I pay $60 to $150 for this game again?  I could see paying $20 if it came with gems and that's about it.

    Of course the hivemind positivists have come in and rationalized why it's all okay in GW2.  The "you don't need to buy it" is absolutely the most vacuous comment someone could make.  Of course you don't need to buy it.  You don't need to do anything with a game.  It's not about need. It's about how it affects the game and the total cost of playing the whole game.

  • SybnalSybnal nunavit, NWPosts: 261Member

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    LOL, u funny.

    So let's go through the dance, shall we.

    First, I really want u to edicuate yourself if you shall.  First define What is pay to win.  Tell me what is winning in GW2?   Is it the person with the most experience wins?  Is it the person with the most gold?  How do these help you win

    IN a pay to win game, at least normally, there has to be items in teh shop that you NEED in order to do objectives in the game. IE, toughness stat only comes on certain things and those things are either really hard to find or i cna buy them in the cash shop.  Toughnees stat is needed to play raid content.  See how that works.

    So again i ask, How am i winning.

    the "good" stuff comes in Karma, a.  Even then u get tons of cash in the game. I had some2  gold before i signed off. 

    So 1. Keys  - the chest are pretty much random stuff from the item shop.  It's a lottery draw. Sometimes you get over sometimes you loose on the price of the key. Since we've established that there is not nothing needed in the item shop and the keys can only get u things in the item show 

    NOT PAY TO WIN

    So 2. XP Bonuses - XP bonuses saves you 10 percent of your time.  That's 6 minuts every hour.  YOu hour once every 90 minutes so it allows you to level 9 minutes faster per hour than your friends.  Over a course of 80 levels and a few hundred dollars you could theoretically save 12 hours of game play to get to 80.  That's a boat load of money to reach a level and you still miss a ton of content.  But the meat of the matter is that you still don't win anything.  There's no "raid" end game.  Content gets harder and more difficult, it varies, but its still dynamic quests, heart quests, and dungeons.  Some of which you missed if you are just speeding to get to level 80. So what, u can get to level 80 content faster, you'll still miss level 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60, and 70 content doing this.  And there's no special "items' in level 80 content.  So you gain a satisfaction of leveling faster and though u see 80 content, u miss 10percent more content in other areas.  

    Since leveling 6 minutes an hour faster than others doesn't provide any in game benefits (your level is based on the zoen you're in) 

    NOT PAY TO WIN

    So 3. Gold to cash - This is the grasping at straws comment.  What you have to determine now is, can u buy anything with cash that will help you win the game. Nope, answered that up top. All the stuff that really boosts staps are bought using karma.   Your idea means u have to tell us how gold makes you win the game.  I had 2 gold at the end of this beta. I didnt feel any more powerful.  I killed folk as easily as the next guy.  My armor and guns wer bought with karma, so i was at no item disadvantage (heck you dont' get that much from items anyway).  

    NOT PAY TO WIN.

    So, we learned that it would take a lot to make this game pay to win.  The number one thing is, if your'e going to say it, you need to spell out what item or things can you buy in this game that gives yu acceess to content that you can't play in withoiut it?  What item gives you a superior advantage over your oponent. 

  • UngoHumungoUngoHumungo Middletown, OHPosts: 518Member

    Originally posted by Sybnal

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.



    actually you can buy gems with in game gold so given enough patience you don't ever actually have to spend real money on the game

     

    There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    Originally posted by graggok

    I received an XP buff from Rytlock for finishing the part of the storyline quest, I picked Karma boosts up out of chest from a rare spawn, I don't think there is anything in the shop which can't be found in the game world....

    Bingo! Didn't even need the shop for anything.

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  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Calling this game P2W is an insult to P2W games.

    By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.

    -How exactly does that make standard Sub-Fee games each month P2W? That makes no sense.

    I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.

    -So you're saying you're paying a FLAT RATE fee that EVERYONE ELSE PAYS in order to stay on a level playing field? So you're saying you can pay an ADDITIONALY $15/month to get more of these benefits? No? Then that means they're standard features to the game, thus NOT making the game "PayToWin". 

    A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.

    -No, actually a sub does NOT = "PayToWin" as the argument you presented is completely incorrect by PayToWin definition.

    I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Originally posted by Sybnal

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

    So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

     

    You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% isn't an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

     

    REALLY?

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  • SybnalSybnal nunavit, NWPosts: 261Member

    Originally posted by graggok

    actually you can buy gems with in game gold so given enough patience you don't ever actually have to spend real money on the game

     

    Ya, I thought you could do that, wasn't sure.  I actually found the cash shop pretty innocuous.  Lots of fluff I couldn't care less about like top hats and collectable mini pets. 

     



     

     

  • NeutorNeutor Jamestown, NCPosts: 101Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Originally posted by Neutor

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

    [xp boosters]

    How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell 

    So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.

    Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster.  In fact with this game it is counter productive.  There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends.  By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.

     

    [stuff about gems to gold]

    Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

     How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?

     

     

     

     

     

    Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO.  It isn't a gear grind.  iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear.  I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items.  BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's.  Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience

    As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE!  I comment on that because I was one of those people.  When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.

    See red.

     

    If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

    I replied in kind.

     

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  • AsalzSyAsalzSy ChitungwizaPosts: 224Member

    Originally posted by Sybnal

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

    I crafted 8 slots inventory bugs and i was only lev 6 and without go for gathering mats just from drops looting mobs..

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Originally posted by Sybnal

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

    So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

     

    You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

     

    REALLY?

     

    Yes, really.

    Your reaching, seriously reaching for some way to call GW2 a P2W model, and it just isnt working.

    image
  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Originally posted by korent1991

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    That keys you're talking about, they are world drops as well and it was discussed about 1 million times on this forums...

    XP boosts... OH NOES! The person will get to lvl 80 30 mins before I do! Whoah... I could care less since there's no real advantage in gaining levels faster. What's the advantage there? Rushing trough the content faster? I'll see whatever I'll want to see when I want to see it, period... 

    lol... The last one was discussed on even more than 1 million times on this forums... IF you played the game this beta you'd know the value of gold for gems... You didn't even had to play beta, you could've just check the forums in the past few weeks and read up on the numerous discussions going on here... Now back to the gold... You couldn't even get 1 gold for 100 gems... You can exchange your ingame gold for gems (the exchange rate was around 10 silver for 100 gems) and get what ever xp boost or chest key you want... You can ofcourse buy the gems with real money and exchange it for less gold but I don't see the real motivation in that besides buying the blueprints (which don't really cost much) for WvWvW and some other crap like that.... 

    Pay to win indeed, god... -.- 

    So you're telling me you can't purchase gear off the exchange with gold? No actually you can, so how is that not a motivation? You're completely ignoring the problem here thinking I'm outright trying to troll GW2. I'm trying to point out a legitimate concern here. 

    Yes, XP boosters are pay to win, as is exchanging RL currency for in-game currency, but I will admit (as i said in my OP) that keys I wasn't 100% about. Please post links to point out what you're talking about. Simply saying "has been discussed 1million times on the forum" means nothing!

    Gear which actually matters in game is mostly bought with karma, so yeah... Tho you can buy other stuff which don't really matter much or even cost much gold... 

    No XP boosters are not pay to win because you will not get the direct benefit of being a higher level in a lvl 8 zone, you'll simply get downleveled and your attacks will decrease to accomodate the zone level you're in right now... So when you're done with the zone and want to move on, you'll still be decreased back down to that zone level so there's no use of it again unless you want to skip like 50% of the content just to use the boost... I really don't mind somoene leveling faster than me since the whole leveling content is fun and exactly what this game devs are pointing out really and giving us to try out the most... So skipping content - no thanks... It's kinda like pay to loose in my eyes..

    I'm not going to google my ass off just to give you a link of a picture where it shows a guy got a mystic key as a world drop, you could've done it yourself before you stated this nonsence :P

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  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common

    There will always be the argument over "what is an advantage" .

    So explain how saving time gives me an advantage.  Where? because when u get to level 80 you are still the same as all the level 80s.  You got there 9 minutes per level faster than the other person.  Which, is hundreds of dollars to save a half day of game playing, a sunday .  So this person bought a sunday and somehow that makes them "paid to win the game".  

    Let's break the math out further.  Hundreds of dollars can theoretically buy you 6.5 levels.  How does them spending hundreds of dollars on 6.5 levels make  them a better player, a stronger player, give them an advantage over you? 

    I drive to work. I bought a car, the guy next to me takes a bus. We do the same job. Neither of us have an advantage. 

  • ArawulfArawulf Guest Writer Freeland, MIPosts: 522Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Calling this game P2W is an insult to P2W games.

    By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.

    -How exactly does that make standard Sub-Fee games each month P2W? That makes no sense.

    I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.

    -So you're saying you're paying a FLAT RATE fee that EVERYONE ELSE PAYS in order to stay on a level playing field? So you're saying you can pay an ADDITIONALY $15/month to get more of these benefits? No? Then that means they're standard features to the game, thus NOT making the game "PayToWin". 

    A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.

    -No, actually a sub does NOT = "PayToWin" as the argument you presented is completely incorrect by PayToWin definition.

    I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?

    World of Warcraft - the largest sub game on the planet allows you to purchase a pet from the cash shop and sell it in game for gold.

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  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Same old crap again and again.

    Xp Boosts are not pay to win in GW2. 80 levels times 90 minutes equals 7200 min. With Xp Boost you'd take 6480 min. Difference of 720, divide that by 60 minutes you get 12 hours. So how is that pay to win. Do tell, how is 12 hours such a massive imbalance.

    If anyone wants to buy gear on the trader by spending gems, power to them. Seeing that the best looking gear will most likely be behind a dungeon vendors, let them at it. Gear at 80 is capped so once you have the best stats that is it. Unless you think max gear will be extremely hard to get. Something Anet has disputed from day one.

    Why don't you do some real research and compare the cash shop's impact on the game and not how items in the cash shop are similar to other items in another game.

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Originally posted by Sybnal

    People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

    If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

    I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

    So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

     

    You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

     

    REALLY?

     

    Yes, really.

    Your reaching, seriously reaching for some way to call GW2 a P2W model, and it just isnt working.

    Not only that, the exhange rates on gems for golds are just like a funny joke... Buying 1600 gems for around 10 $ just go get 1 gold or something like that ? WHAAAT? XD

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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