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Why Guild Wars 2 might fail

ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member

I'm confident that GW2 will be an excellent game and find a dedicated audience that will really enjoy it. I am not confident that GW2 will be a hit with more mainstream MMO players though, for the following reasons and these are the same reasons that is wrong with mmos today.

1. Players don’t want to look cool, they want to be cool.



Every time a player makes a choice based on a 1% dodge bonus, or wears stupid looking armor with great stats over visual aesthetics they are opting for substance over style. GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system.



2. Players want to be the best without actually being the best.



Players want an advantage over everyone else, especially if they can achieve that with mediocre ability spread out over countless hours of monotony that the next guy can’t or won’t invest; a weapon that provides both a stat advantage and exclusive access to a dungeon to get an increased advantage allows mediocre players to get better simply through willpower and time invested versus actual skill or growth. GW2 goes the opposite direction of this, so far as to de-level players going backward in content, almost negating in total what advances they attained through gear and stats alone to keep things interesting. When stats fail to make players better, most players will have nowhere to turn.



3. When players can’t be the best they want somebody (preferably) or something else (works too) to blame instead of themselves.



Eventually things don’t work out as many players wish, and when that happens it’s easier to blame the healers or the tank, or the opposing faction, or the guildie who picked the dumbest class and is wasting a raid slot, etc. instead of doing a self-examination and figuring out how they can improve and then acting to do so. Considering that GW2 is more reliant on player-skill than any other MMO, and that professions are essentially jacks of all trades, finger-pointing will be awkward at best and accusations against balance issues or ad hominem attacks against ArenaNet just won’t work long-term for bad players.



4. Players don’t want to have to think, they just want to act.



Many MMOs cater to skill rotations, cool-down management, and provide high-reward abilities with no risks associated with their use. A perceived “I Win” button like Moa Morph that can actually miss is a foreign concept to many players, and one that will probably ruin their sense of fun in the face of more skillful opponents or challenging NPCs.

While some players are sighing in relief about the “low” number of skills in GW2, this is an illusion or an oversimplification, as many of the traits really do add an unparalleled level of depth to profession customization. That there is no one “right” answer for a profession, coupled with the fact that the “right traits and skills” would still require skillful and thoughtful use by the player, will only frustrate players more accustomed to traditional MMORPG gameplay conventions.



5. Players need validation.



In most MMOs it’s a simple matter to find one or two character builds that are optimal for the way the game is designed. In higher-level content, if a build can fulfill a role in a raid, and the raid succeeds, the build is successful, and the feedback is readily apparent. GW2’s reliance on player-skill and player-choice throws this system of evaluation out the window, and every request to evaluate a given build veils thinly the requestor’s doubts about having enough personal skill to succeed in spite of mistakes, oversights, and/or shortcomings at the trait and skill picking level. With player-skill being such an integral variable that many players won't honestly want to evaluate, validation will be difficult to come by.

If people are willing to accept new changes in GW2, I think its going to be a smashing hit. At some point, there has to mmo that tries to differentiate standard EQ/WOW based system and you know what, Guild Wars decided to do that. 

EDIT: Changed Font and repost from Andre @SA forum

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Comments

  • pacovpacov Saskatoon, SKPosts: 311Member

    please change the font... i am literally blinded

    image
  • grimm6thgrimm6th Overland Park, KSPosts: 973Member

    So...GW2 could fail because most gamers suck at games?  What?

    I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon

    Not a flame, but he's right. That is serious eyestrain.

     

    EDIT: New font didn't help. Just please use default.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member

    Originally posted by Velocinox

    Not a flame, but he's right. That is serious eyestrain.

     

    EDIT: New font didn't help. Just please use default.

    Changed to default

    I use comic san all the time..didn't think it was eye-straining...i'll have to rethink.

     

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Everything you listed is a massive problem in other mmos as I see them.   Im glad GW2 doesnt have these issues and finally I get to play an mmo where my skill matters, and not what shoulder pads Im wearing. 

  • strangepowersstrangepowers Chiacgo, ILPosts: 602Member Common

    It's a troll looking for attention, note the font screaming " please look at me." and the "1st" post.

    Furthermore the entire rant is entirely subjective and most likely a projection of his unique personal experience.

    The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    image

  • strangepowersstrangepowers Chiacgo, ILPosts: 602Member Common

    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Wait... someone plagiarizing anothers forum post.. wow just wow. At least give a source indicating it's a reddit post.*

     

    *Wherever you source it from.

    The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member

    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Thought it be easier I just posted here than redirecting. Plus I didn't get it at reddit, I was at sa forum.

     

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by strangepower

    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Wait... someone plagiarizing another forum post.. wow just wow.

    It's kind of sad, I think.

    Either way, the original post on reddit has a lot of interesting comments.

    image

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by ictown

    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Thought it be easier I just posted here than redirecting. Plus I didn't get it at reddit, I was at sa forum.

     

    And the plot thickens...

    Edit: The right thing to do in this case would be to credit the author.

    image

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon

    Ok, those points are kind of pessimistic towards MMO players. I think they may apply to the ancillary MMO players that play because their friend or SO does, but otherwise wouldn't play themselves. However, the core MMO player has been looking for something different from WoW for a while now, and I think the first game to hit fun AND get away from WoW will hit big. (Though I don't think we'll ever see an MMO dominate like WoW did, the market is just too diluted at this point.)

    Now that being said, I don't think GW2 is as distant from WoW as stated. I believe it is a move away, but it isn't a whole new beast. It will have enought differences to attract those that no longer want the WoW game, but close enough to attract the hangers on that only play to do the big thing or be with friends/SOs.

    Not to mention there are no subscription fees to cancel, and I think that right there will prevent it from doing a complete faceplant, but I also think it will do better than a minimal MMO, for the exact same reason: Why leave when you don't have to pay? People may take a break, but the falloff precipice that many big name MMOs have faced recently just won't happen.

     

    EDIT: changed wording to avoid attributing the article to poster.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

     

    props!  i knew i had seen that somewhere, i thought it was a repost from somewhere else on this forum lol.

    i thought it was an ok read though

  • TerrorizorTerrorizor Red Beer, ABPosts: 326Member

    I would have to say that the author is too absorbed in him or her own self to even begin stating what anyone else wants.  They come across like their stereotypical veiw of what a gamer wants is inherent in every gamer.  If they said "I don't like GW2 for ... " then I could understand with the logic, but coming across like they know every gamers preferences just proves them to be a self absorbed blowhard. People like that should just shut up until they can get over themselves.

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by ictown


    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Thought it be easier I just posted here than redirecting. Plus I didn't get it at reddit, I was at sa forum.

     

    And the plot thickens...

    Edit: The right thing to do in this case would be to credit the author.

    Props to Andry @SA forum for posting it.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by ictown

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by ictown


    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Thought it be easier I just posted here than redirecting. Plus I didn't get it at reddit, I was at sa forum.

     

    And the plot thickens...

    Edit: The right thing to do in this case would be to credit the author.

    Props to Andry @SA forum for posting it.

    Much better. Thank you. =)

    image

  • strangepowersstrangepowers Chiacgo, ILPosts: 602Member Common

    Originally posted by ictown

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by ictown


    Originally posted by heartless

    Should've just given posted a link to the original article, imo.

    Thought it be easier I just posted here than redirecting. Plus I didn't get it at reddit, I was at sa forum.

     

    And the plot thickens...

    Edit: The right thing to do in this case would be to credit the author.

    Props to Andry @SA forum for posting it.

    Thanks man.

    The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member

    Apparently you can download the client and it outright deletes the old dat file.

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon

    if by mainstream you mean bad players, players that think they're great but arent and players that need to have epeen to justify playing, i'm glad i wont see them ingame... the game will be better off without them... real gamers will enjoy this game anyway

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ictown

    I'm confident that GW2 will be an excellent game and find a dedicated audience that will really enjoy it. I am not confident that GW2 will be a hit with more mainstream MMO players though, for the following reasons and these are the same reasons that is wrong with mmos today.
    1. Players don’t want to look cool, they want to be cool.


    Every time a player makes a choice based on a 1% dodge bonus, or wears stupid looking armor with great stats over visual aesthetics they are opting for substance over style. GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system.



    2. Players want to be the best without actually being the best.



    Players want an advantage over everyone else, especially if they can achieve that with mediocre ability spread out over countless hours of monotony that the next guy can’t or won’t invest; a weapon that provides both a stat advantage and exclusive access to a dungeon to get an increased advantage allows mediocre players to get better simply through willpower and time invested versus actual skill or growth. GW2 goes the opposite direction of this, so far as to de-level players going backward in content, almost negating in total what advances they attained through gear and stats alone to keep things interesting. When stats fail to make players better, most players will have nowhere to turn.



    3. When players can’t be the best they want somebody (preferably) or something else (works too) to blame instead of themselves.



    Eventually things don’t work out as many players wish, and when that happens it’s easier to blame the healers or the tank, or the opposing faction, or the guildie who picked the dumbest class and is wasting a raid slot, etc. instead of doing a self-examination and figuring out how they can improve and then acting to do so. Considering that GW2 is more reliant on player-skill than any other MMO, and that professions are essentially jacks of all trades, finger-pointing will be awkward at best and accusations against balance issues or ad hominem attacks against ArenaNet just won’t work long-term for bad players.



    4. Players don’t want to have to think, they just want to act.



    Many MMOs cater to skill rotations, cool-down management, and provide high-reward abilities with no risks associated with their use. A perceived “I Win” button like Moa Morph that can actually miss is a foreign concept to many players, and one that will probably ruin their sense of fun in the face of more skillful opponents or challenging NPCs.

    While some players are sighing in relief about the “low” number of skills in GW2, this is an illusion or an oversimplification, as many of the traits really do add an unparalleled level of depth to profession customization. That there is no one “right” answer for a profession, coupled with the fact that the “right traits and skills” would still require skillful and thoughtful use by the player, will only frustrate players more accustomed to traditional MMORPG gameplay conventions.



    5. Players need validation.



    In most MMOs it’s a simple matter to find one or two character builds that are optimal for the way the game is designed. In higher-level content, if a build can fulfill a role in a raid, and the raid succeeds, the build is successful, and the feedback is readily apparent. GW2’s reliance on player-skill and player-choice throws this system of evaluation out the window, and every request to evaluate a given build veils thinly the requestor’s doubts about having enough personal skill to succeed in spite of mistakes, oversights, and/or shortcomings at the trait and skill picking level. With player-skill being such an integral variable that many players won't honestly want to evaluate, validation will be difficult to come by.
    If people are willing to accept new changes in GW2, I think its going to be a smashing hit. At some point, there has to mmo that tries to differentiate standard EQ/WOW based system and you know what, Guild Wars decided to do that. 
    EDIT: Changed Font and repost from Andre @SA forum

     

    How can this lead to fail, when GW2 has this along with every other MMO that's still out there?

    image

  • SkuzSkuz WorcesterPosts: 1,034Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ictown

     


    I'm confident that GW2 will be an excellent game and find a dedicated audience that will really enjoy it. I am not confident that GW2 will be a hit with more mainstream MMO players though, for the following reasons and these are the same reasons that is wrong with mmos today.


    1. Players don’t want to look cool, they want to be cool.


     


    Every time a player makes a choice based on a 1% dodge bonus, or wears stupid looking armor with great stats over visual aesthetics they are opting for substance over style. GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system.


     


    It's EASY to say that at the launch of a title, but when a game is going on 5 years old or more then it's a completely different argument I'm afraid & this point is rather blinkered & lacking of in-depth knowledge.


     


    2. Players want to be the best without actually being the best.


     


    Players want an advantage over everyone else, especially if they can achieve that with mediocre ability spread out over countless hours of monotony that the next guy can’t or won’t invest; a weapon that provides both a stat advantage and exclusive access to a dungeon to get an increased advantage allows mediocre players to get better simply through willpower and time invested versus actual skill or growth. GW2 goes the opposite direction of this, so far as to de-level players going backward in content, almost negating in total what advances they attained through gear and stats alone to keep things interesting. When stats fail to make players better, most players will have nowhere to turn.


     


    No, players do NOT want to have an advantage over everyone else, not good ones anyway, the majority want a platform that is fair in the game so that their personal skills & aptitudes will be what shine through, the frustration players feel when they are not the best is easily attributable to class balance is a lot of games because so few ever get anywhere close to balanced & Guild Wars 2 will not be any different in that respect.


     


    MMO's are based on gear progression so stats need to have an effect to have a point in wanting to improve them, when players "de-level" & the stats on their gear are adjusted this is more to do with making that lower level content still relevant, challenging & exciting rather than pointless due to overgearing, it has nothing at all to do with the players having a desire for an unfair advantage.


     


    3. When players can’t be the best they want somebody (preferably) or something else (works too) to blame instead of themselves.


     


    Only bad losers do


     


    Eventually things don’t work out as many players wish, and when that happens it’s easier to blame the healers or the tank, or the opposing faction, or the guildie who picked the dumbest class and is wasting a raid slot, etc. instead of doing a self-examination and figuring out how they can improve and then acting to do so. Considering that GW2 is more reliant on player-skill than any other MMO, and that professions are essentially jacks of all trades, finger-pointing will be awkward at best and accusations against balance issues or ad hominem attacks against ArenaNet just won’t work long-term for bad players.


     


    Wrong, player-skill is not as important as player knowledge, knowing how a event, mob or dungeon functions is almost all of what you need to learn, the skill is a small percentage, much like driving a car the skill of driving is a tiny portion of the overall act, the biggest part is observation, this part of the post is just completely lacking in understanding of how MMO's & a lot of games in general operate.


     


    4. Players don’t want to have to think, they just want to act.


     


    Wrong, some players prefer action-leaning games with a bit of thinking, others prefer thinking games with a bit of action & everything inbetween is liked by some too.


     


    Many MMOs cater to skill rotations, cool-down management, and provide high-reward abilities with no risks associated with their use. A perceived “I Win” button like Moa Morph that can actually miss is a foreign concept to many players, and one that will probably ruin their sense of fun in the face of more skillful opponents or challenging NPCs.


     


    Pure misguided conjecture, you are making huge assumptions about how players behave & perceive their actions, this is crass generalisation.


     


    While some players are sighing in relief about the “low” number of skills in GW2, this is an illusion or an oversimplification, as many of the traits really do add an unparalleled level of depth to profession customization. That there is no one “right” answer for a profession, coupled with the fact that the “right traits and skills” would still require skillful and thoughtful use by the player, will only frustrate players more accustomed to traditional MMORPG gameplay conventions.


     


    Wow, genius you know that a ton of MMO's have things that affect the abilities right? GW2 may have a slightly altered approach but it's a variation on a theme & has been seen before in various guises, you are blowing the proverbial smoke up people's butts here.


     


    5. Players need validation.


     


    In most MMOs it’s a simple matter to find one or two character builds that are optimal for the way the game is designed. In higher-level content, if a build can fulfill a role in a raid, and the raid succeeds, the build is successful, and the feedback is readily apparent. GW2’s reliance on player-skill and player-choice throws this system of evaluation out the window, and every request to evaluate a given build veils thinly the requestor’s doubts about having enough personal skill to succeed in spite of mistakes, oversights, and/or shortcomings at the trait and skill picking level. With player-skill being such an integral variable that many players won't honestly want to evaluate, validation will be difficult to come by.


    If people are willing to accept new changes in GW2, I think its going to be a smashing hit. At some point, there has to mmo that tries to differentiate standard EQ/WOW based system and you know what, Guild Wars decided to do that. 


     


    GW2 doesn't have raiding, & I already addressed your misconceptions about player skill above,  so what is your point here?

    Overall this post is rather ill-informed fanboism, but I took the time to argue the points it made poorly.

  • KidonKidon SesimbraPosts: 395Member Uncommon

    "GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system"

     

    In guild wars 2 you will be better if you play better, how is this a shallow system? in other mmos non cares who is better since, unless they all have the same gear, their win's are gear based.

     

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon

    I'm not sure how many boxes they need to sell to consider themselves a success, but I don't see them failing.

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,053Member Uncommon

    OP is actually right

    Its a fact. And reason WOW will still thrive.

     

    But there are also a lot of good gamers that respect skill. Fact is that games like DOTA , SC or CS are widely played still

    So GW2 has its own niche too

    image

  • AzmodaiAzmodai SydneyPosts: 154Member

    Originally posted by Kidon

    "GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system"

     

    In guild wars 2 you will be better if you play better, how is this a shallow system? in other mmos non cares who is better since, unless they all have the same gear, their win's are gear based.

     

    Dont say stuff like that c'mon, I cant get around the whole "GW2 is all about skillzz" argument, To me it looks like any other MMO with a different class system and it will always have OP classes/weapons and under powered classes/weapons. No matter what the developers do a game can almost never Be balanced especially in the case of GW2's multi-weapon system unless there is only 1 class or if everyone uses the Exact same thing like for example a FPS game with lets say the same weapon.

    GW2 is not even freaking action free aim so how the hell is it fully skillz? Sure it might have some kind of actiony twist to it but its still not action. Gear might not matter in GW2 but Classes and weapons will matter 100%. Ur saying that every weapon combination is the same as the rest, that alone would make GW2 really boring since there is no diversity. Some people assume that EVERYONE likes change but forget that 90% of the games that tried to change failed to do so. I don't follow GW2 too much so don't go all ape shit on me but If there is something that I might have mistaken in my post then feel free to correct me. Also correct me if I am wrong but Does GW2 offer any kind of Community based PVP? Like for example a Guild war between clans or small scrimish between players? These kind of things can be important in MMOs.

    These are just my thoughts about the game, I was a little interested in it but unfortunately it wasn't to my taste. I hope that all the fans enjoy the game and all but at least keep your fanboisim to a minimum so People who don't research much won't be disappointed (like in SWTOR's case maybe). 

    image

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