Are we really giving advice to people on how to approach life now? Particularly to individuals who have probably been around more than a couple Sundays?
I am thinking thats alot like hiring a tour guide to China from someone who has never been there in many cases. Maybe we should stick to video games and leave life lessons out of it. It may save some embarassment.
Just sayin...
I do not think anyone is trying to say how others should live. Yet the OP is creating a false premise.
People grow Critical not Stagnant, because they accumulate experience every time they play another MMO and form better opinions about MMO's.
So in conclusion, it is the MMO's that have changed, not the people.
My post was not directed at the OP, however I would rather leave it as a blanket statement as I did not want to do a quote and blast post. Nuff said. Just did not want the OP to be discouraged thinking his post was taken the wrong way or my post was directed at him.
Yes, I understood this, that is why i replied to you, to try and point out that it is difficult to stay out of Life Lessons because the very essence of the point made in the OP relates to how we function as humans in Life. But I agree it should stay within the context of MMO's.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
There's little hope for a post that opens with hasty generalization either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Time passes...MMO Z comes allong, and it have features 1-5 but better made than MMO Y.
Player C plays it as their first MMO and they Love it.
Player B is dissapointed, saying "I remember when MMO Y had 1-7 features"
Player A as well saying, "but I remeber when MMO X had 1-10 features"
These are good points, but you are forgetting that MMOZ actually has 1-5 old features and maybe 2-3 new features. But the old school gamers don't care about new features. They want their old features.
This is when we grow stagnant: When we stop appreciating innovation, and start hating it.
I bet most of the respondants on this thread can quite easily name all the features of the MMOs they used to play that were great that are missing from today's games, but when asked about what innovative features they would like to see added they will probably only come up with 1 or 2 small variations on the formula they feel was perfected 14 years ago.
These are good points, but you are forgetting that MMOZ actually has 1-5 old features and maybe 2-3 new features. But the old school gamers don't care about new features. They want their old features.
This is when we grow stagnant: When we stop appreciating innovation, and start hating it.
I bet most of the respondants on this thread can quite easily name all the features of the MMOs they used to play that were great that are missing from today's games, but when asked about what innovative features they would like to see added they will probably only come up with 1 or 2 small variations on the formula they feel was perfected 14 years ago.
Well said.
While there have been many good features in earlier MMOs that does not mean all new ideas are bad.
In fact a lot of the problems I have with the genre right now is the lack of innovation,, and I have been playing since Meridian 59 released.
What really made games like UO, AC, DaoC and EQ so great what that they experimented with features and added a lot to a genre that existed before them. Just remaking any of them exactly as they were but with better graphics would be missing the point.
That said, many of the new features are bad but the same could be said about many old features as well.
As I see it should MMOs look on both past and present games features but also add a bunch of new things to them, it is the only way to revitalize the genre that have been riddled with a lot of stagnation for years.
In fact until Wow wiped the floor with the other games there was a lot of innovation going on and clebrating that while complaining that all new features suck is rather silly.
99% of people reach a point in their lives where they say 'remember when....' and look with great affection at some time in the past. They forget the problems during that time. Maybe because they were young and didn't realize the problems around them, or they weren't yet in a position to be affected by events. In this same vain, most people reach a point where they stop trying to 'keep up' with technology. The old Razor phone was great. What do I need with a smart phone?
This is a rather belabored point of asking the same question regarding MMOs.
At what point do we seem to reach the same place in our evolution. The fault doesn't rest with the MMOs themselves. They are always evolving and giving what the current population is looking for. Otherwise they would go broke. I know some young'uns who have only recently started playing their MMOs, and they are having a great time. No 'This is so much worse than XXXXXXXXX' .. 'Back then, MMOs were better because XXXXXXX'. No, they enjoy the games and have a great time, which is the point of the whole thing (I think). In terms of MMO time, we are like dogs. for every 1 year in the real world seems to be like 7 - 10 in the MMO world. People who have been playing for 3 or 4 years, seem to get caught up in the stagnation.
My questions are simple (Why do we becomse stuck in our ways quicker than the average, as it seems to me. For a technologically inclined group, why do we stagnate so simply?? After careful reflection, when did you begin to notice the 'back when XXXX' phenom was happening?
I'm really tired, so I apologize ahead for a somewhat grim bent.
I really cannot accept one of you main points.The part about companys giving players what they want.IMO I think that is exactly what many company decision makers don't do. It's this failure that has caused the wheeping and gnashing of teeth by a signifigant segment of the MMO community.
SWTOR.......... and what it is comest to mind
AOC.....and the debacle it turned out to be
WAR.....theyre down to 1 server last I checked
RIFT ....the WOW slayer.More like the WOW clone
VANGUARD....so much promise unfufilled
And so many in the mmo community lurch from promise to promise searching.Not finding.
Time passes...MMO Z comes allong, and it have features 1-5 but better made than MMO Y.
Player C plays it as their first MMO and they Love it.
Player B is dissapointed, saying "I remember when MMO Y had 1-7 features"
Player A as well saying, "but I remeber when MMO X had 1-10 features"
These are good points, but you are forgetting that MMOZ actually has 1-5 old features and maybe 2-3 new features. But the old school gamers don't care about new features. They want their old features.
This is when we grow stagnant: When we stop appreciating innovation, and start hating it.
I bet most of the respondants on this thread can quite easily name all the features of the MMOs they used to play that were great that are missing from today's games, but when asked about what innovative features they would like to see added they will probably only come up with 1 or 2 small variations on the formula they feel was perfected 14 years ago.
Saying that the Old School Players do not care about new features is not quite accurate Sythion, nor true, for me.
What the old school players do not appreciate is that by going to 1-5 features the gameplay experience changed, even if 2-3 new features were added. the right course of action for them would have been going from 1-10 to 1-14. Adding the innovative features on top of the existing and already fun features.
So the perception is that the genre has regressed instead of evolving.
Oh lets remove Housing, its is not needed, lets remove FFA PvP it is not needed lets remove Social tools not needed, lets remove the seamless world.
hey lets add instanced World to replace the seamless world and call that innovation!!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
While MMO's have improved in many areas, there's no denying that they also removed alot of the features and mechanics that some of us favored because the greater masses didn't care for them.
Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.
Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.
I will agree that analogies are always problamatic. There is always a better one, than what I probably think of. Not sure yours is better TBH, but everyone reads them a bit differently. As far as your analysis of your 'Modern MMO's, I read it as you being one of 'those guys'. Since new gamers are completely satisfied with their experiences in new games, you/we cling to olderr games and the features they offered.
Another one of my poor analyogies would be the 'when I was young, we could choose to get glass bottled coke, and now it's all plastic' Bottles were so much better. Since I didn't grow up in the glass bottle age, I don't think of it as having lost a 'feature', I just view the plastic bottle as the only feature that I'm used to, and see know no reason to go back to glass bottles. That doesn't mean glass bottled milk, wasn't better because of the bottle, but I have no need of this old option. It's just not part of my mindset.
Bad analyody, but hopefully it sort of/maybe/possibly gets my point accross.
You know how i feel when i talk about this, i feel like shrek trying to explain to the donkey mmo were about layers, you know all those layers that were pelt off with years. Players didn't grow stagnant, its more like mmo went backward.
Players didn't grow stagnant, its more like mmo went backward.
Players often endorse MMOs going backwards. But I think its just reactionary at work.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Time passes...MMO Z comes allong, and it have features 1-5 but better made than MMO Y.
Player C plays it as their first MMO and they Love it.
Player B is dissapointed, saying "I remember when MMO Y had 1-7 features"
Player A as well saying, "but I remeber when MMO X had 1-10 features"
These are good points, but you are forgetting that MMOZ actually has 1-5 old features and maybe 2-3 new features. But the old school gamers don't care about new features. They want their old features.
This is when we grow stagnant: When we stop appreciating innovation, and start hating it.
I bet most of the respondants on this thread can quite easily name all the features of the MMOs they used to play that were great that are missing from today's games, but when asked about what innovative features they would like to see added they will probably only come up with 1 or 2 small variations on the formula they feel was perfected 14 years ago.
Saying that the Old School Players do not care about new features is not quite accurate Sythion, nor true, for me.
What the old school players do not appreciate is that by going to 1-5 features the gameplay experience changed, even if 2-3 new features were added. the right course of action for them would have been going from 1-10 to 1-14. Adding the innovative features on top of the existing and already fun features.
So the perception is that the genre has regressed instead of evolving.
Oh lets remove Housing, its is not needed, lets remove FFA PvP it is not needed lets remove Social tools not needed, lets remove the seamless world.
hey lets add instanced World to replace the seamless world and call that innovation!!
Except that isn't whats happening. Not all games had housing before, not all do now. Same with FFApvp and seamless worlds.
In fact some are going the opposite direction. EQ2 has fantastic housing now. Completely customizable.
There have been new things added and virtually nothing has been taken away. That is progression.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Older gamers who reminisce about the older games and wish for certain aspects to return are not under-appreciating new elements. They really just want a game that offers the potential of what new games bring to the table with the older school philosophy.
I think alot of older gamers admire the polish and finesse of the new games. However that effort is always appliedt to a template that is geared for another generation.
Endorsing the past is good and bad. However, there is still a market for the old school rule set. WoW became a four letter word in the MMO community but it really brought alot of ground breaking elements. The release WoW was a modern image of the older template with next generation influences. It then took its own course. This was great for many but not for individuals looking for modern technology to upgrade what they already loved.
They eventually had to choose between returning to the older template with old technology or a newer template with the technology and advancement they wanted added to an already great concept in a concept that was growing in an entirely different direction.
Fact is different generations have different ideas of what makes an enjoyable MMORPG. The genre just doesnt offer alot of options for those who were content with a ruleset that was less accomodating to the casual payer. Not everyone wants the game to give them the answers to quests. Not everyone wants the game to tell them exactly where you need to go for that next drop in the questline. Some people prefer a community that relies on one another as opposed to generated options for everything so that you do not ever really need to meet, communicate or learn to work with others until you can just click a button that automatically works that out for you.
MMORPGS use to be somewhat like an interactive, community chat service. The community in which you played with was equivelant in importance to the game itself.
That may be nostalgic, however, in the end no game will compare to an environment that offers it. I prefer the old school idea of "here it is,figure it out" method of development and also would like the polish, animations and graphic improvements that are coming out in todays MMOs.
That may make me a person who is looking in the past to some. I look at it as someone who feels as though we lost a great idea in the process of attempting to make progress. Due to that we actually lost alot of what made it special in the first place.
Everything new is pure at its birth and with time it gets corrupted, the examples are everywhere in this world from music to religion/politics to technology.. this is also the case with mmorpgs. Thing is, you can only know the history from the point where you enter it.
A new generation at any point in time starts by throwing away the values of their elders to create their own identity, but ends up taking most of those values at the end, combined with the new that stood the test - This is how the world evolves. If you accept this, logic would suggest that most new will fail the test, but it has to be tried or there would be no progression.
The above is true, and yet it is not at all because nothing is that black and white.
It is an awesome statement that can be used to invalidate any argument from the "old", and the opposite statement is when you don't even know the old you are not qualified to say the new is better.
Black and white, goodnite.
ps. Where is my VR suit with full freedom and natural movement in a endless world, in 1990 I thought that would be the new in 201x.. this "new" just doesnt feel very new to me.
2 hours ago i stepped into TERA game and after 20 min i stopped playing. Starter AREA of the game is bad but its something these days is prolly common. After start i come in world and i thought hmm nice looking realy nice looking. But then it started for me the fast downfall.
Hold hand the quest giver the oh so familiar quest we have done so manytimes in past kill 10x this collect 4x that.
Grahics alone dont do it for me anymore the whole gameplay UI combat mobs quests its all done before i can't cut it sorry TERA:(
Omg i was depressed after 20min and logout in this new game.
Sorry i realy can't play this kind of games anymore ive had it with this mediocre replay im eather burnout forever or maybe GW2 will give me back the enthousiastic feeling and fun back or im forever lost to mmo's im affraid.
If this is stagnant so be it i just can't play these games anymore they are prolly for new generation i grow out of this kind of games.
I think alot of older gamers admire the polish and finesse of the new games. However that effort is always appliedt to a template that is geared for another generation.
It's not a generational thing. It's an appreciation thing. I'm an old school gamer too, but I can see what games bring to the table. My bithcing (and I do more of it than a lot of other old school gamers do), comes because the genre doesn't try enough to evolve itself.
First everything was stuck on EQ based mechanics, and one or two little innovations were added. EQ with FFA PvP or EQ with a changable world with a vassal system, or EQ in space with random missions.
Then WoW came, and things changed, and the future looked bright. Quests could now be enjoyable, and people could enjoy content without having to "grind" to power up. Then everything followed the same process, but mostly did it worse (making quest grind the new thing). And now we have WoW with instanced and FFA PvP, WoW with combos and blood, WoW with hobbits, WoW with light sabers and VO, WoW with spandex and flight, WoW with action combat.
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
And while I've heard people refute my points on motivation for wanting the good old days, I've yet to hear one proponent suggest innovating past the good old days in any way.
Originally posted by Dissolution I think alot of older gamers admire the polish and finesse of the new games. However that effort is always appliedt to a template that is geared for another generation.
It's not a generational thing. It's an appreciation thing. I'm an old school gamer too, but I can see what games bring to the table. My bithcing (and I do more of it than a lot of other old school gamers do), comes because the genre doesn't try enough to evolve itself.
First everything was stuck on EQ based mechanics, and one or two little innovations were added. EQ with FFA PvP or EQ with a changable world with a vassal system, or EQ in space with random missions.
Then WoW came, and things changed, and the future looked bright. Quests could now be enjoyable, and people could enjoy content without having to "grind" to power up. Then everything followed the same process, but mostly did it worse (making quest grind the new thing). And now we have WoW with instanced and FFA PvP, WoW with combos and blood, WoW with hobbits, WoW with light sabers and VO, WoW with spandex and flight, WoW with action combat.
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
And while I've heard people refute my points on motivation for wanting the good old days, I've yet to hear one proponent suggest innovating past the good old days in any way.
I woud propose that innovation could be executed in a multi-faceted manner. You could go the direction things are headed and also take what was already given (backwards thinking) and make a refined version of that. WoW offered many improvements to the MMO genre, however it also destroyed alot of what made it enjoyable to not only the older generation but a corner of the new generation if given the same opportunity in a next gen environmant. I cannot think of one area of life where one would dump the wisdom of the past in order to create a better future. There was much to be said about what started this all out. If there was not, we wouldnt have what we do today. Why do we feel a need to consider the old template of MMORPGS as irrelevant? That makes no sense.
I think alot of older gamers admire the polish and finesse of the new games. However that effort is always appliedt to a template that is geared for another generation.
It's not a generational thing. It's an appreciation thing. I'm an old school gamer too, but I can see what games bring to the table. My bithcing (and I do more of it than a lot of other old school gamers do), comes because the genre doesn't try enough to evolve itself.
First everything was stuck on EQ based mechanics, and one or two little innovations were added. EQ with FFA PvP or EQ with a changable world with a vassal system, or EQ in space with random missions.
Then WoW came, and things changed, and the future looked bright. Quests could now be enjoyable, and people could enjoy content without having to "grind" to power up. Then everything followed the same process, but mostly did it worse (making quest grind the new thing). And now we have WoW with instanced and FFA PvP, WoW with combos and blood, WoW with hobbits, WoW with light sabers and VO, WoW with spandex and flight, WoW with action combat.
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
And while I've heard people refute my points on motivation for wanting the good old days, I've yet to hear one proponent suggest innovating past the good old days in any way.
Ive not played it yet so its pure speculation and what ive seen so far from all videos and previews seems going into right direction.
Im talking offcorse GW2, seems a good step in right direction and not a simple EQ/WoW clone, but a complete other game with alot of innovations we all want so much.
But again ive not played it and maybe its crap, for me thats expensive crap then if thats case i bought blindly CE but thats the risk i took and i wont come here screaming about when GW2 is not what i thought it would be future will tell:)
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
They often wax eloquently about the quality of the gamers being lower than it was in the past; which suggests a conceit about their own inherent superiority that may not be justified. But it's the sort of "everybody knows" folk wisdom that only grows by constant repetition; my grandfather was also certain that modern kids were somehow implicitly lacking. So was Plato.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I woud propose that innovation could be executed in a multi-faceted manner. You could go the direction things are headed and also take what was already given (backwards thinking) and make a refined version of that. WoW offered many improvements to the MMO genre, however it also destroyed alot of what made it enjoyable to not only the older generation but a corner of the new generation if given the same opportunity in a next gen environmant. I cannot think of one area of life where one would dump the wisdom of the past in order to create a better future. There was much to be said about what started this all out. If there was not, we wouldnt have what we do today. Why do we feel a need to consider the old template of MMORPGS as irrelevant? That makes no sense.
So a couple of things to clarify here.
First off, refinement is not innovation. "EQ but better" is not innovation. It's Vanguard with worse crafting and no diplomacy card game.
Second, I don't think we should throw away the wisdom of the past, but I don't think we should throw away calculators and switch to abacuses because it helps you think more logically. The move to new things already incorporates the past, so there's no need to redo things the same way as before. Although, I will admit, there are times when there are certain things which are not given the full range of exploration that they should have been given, and need to be revisited (in all facets of life), EQ-style gameplay is not one of those things.
Third, I think there needs to be a little bit of analysis on why some of the existing old mechanics for MMOs were so great. Let's go over some of the common flaws-cum-communalizers. All of these seem like horrible gameplay experiences on the outside, but you have secret knowledge that points out just how much they actually enhanced your experience.
Resurrections. Sure, it might not seem like fun to have to wait for 10 minutes for someone to come resurrect you, but man, that sure brought people together a lot more than today's games, didn't it?
Corpse runs. These were rough! But that's the hole point! MMOs used to be challenging, but now they're just hand holding cake walks. And the thrill of getting your corpse back, knowing what was on the line if you failed... exhilerating!
Mob trains, Mob speed, Chase to zone, Aggro ranges. Again, it makes things rough, but EQ really let you know what was on the line! If you weren't careful and skilled (same thing) then you could have a guaranteed death on your hands!
Unsoloability. Sure, you couldn't do everything yourself, or at least most classes couldn't. But that's the point of these tough games! By forcing people to work together you really create the community that makes these games strive!
Few quests. Okay, so there was definitely a grind in EQ, but so what? Today's quest driven games just spew worthless nonsense anyway, and they have actually made the world LESS interactive by taking away any sense of discovery or exploration.
So these are all valid points someone defending the good old days might bring up. But when we look at them more closely, some gaps start to appear in the logic.
Do we really need flawed mechanics like a resurrections, and the inability to solo to bring us together in groups, or is there a better way? Arguably, a lot of today's games bring people together better than the old ones, just in different ways that appear quite alien and may seem a little shallow at first.
Do corpse runs and crazy mob antics really provide difficulty? Well, it certainly provides a risk/reward situation, but that's not necesarily difficult content. That's just content that enforces risk management. Would the challenge of a game be better off rewarding skill rather than caution?
While I actually agree that today's quest grind system has taken away the sense of exploration, it doesn't have to be that way. There are several games coming out that are focusing on that aspect of the game pretty heavily.
So, when it comes down to it, EQ definitely did not have misudnerstood but objectively superior mechanics. It had flawed gameplay mechanics that became ingrained as part of your gameplay experience, and so are subjectively superior to you. That's normal. That's what happens with any art form (liberal use of the term) that we try to analyze and judge versus a similar piece of work.
However, it does not mean that anyone should cater to you, or that you should feel slighted because they don't. Your opinion has been formed in a way that is not able to improve the art form in its current direction, and so should not be considered in when we look for ways to do so.
It seems then that the Original Logic is agreed upon by many.
Yes I agree too that Refinement is not Innovation. And I agree as well that old school players do not just ignore any new innovations added. Onthe contrary, new innovations are appreciated, but new innovation's recognition and acknowledgement often get trumped because so many other features got dropped in the process.
And in the end, innovation or not, if the experience get simplified and a game does not deliver an experience on par with what came before it that the old schoolers may have experienced, the game as a whole will still be viewed as a regression overall.
The difference I beleive between old school players and newer players is that old school players evaluate the complete experience and do not get excited by a single feature often promoted to death by the marketing machine of the new MMOs.
It is all sparkling Dust to many of the oldschooler and what counts is the hands on overall experience.
And it is normal to see things like that, if you are new to drinking wine then all wines can be Great and have a sumptuous Flavor but if you have been around for a while you devellop an ability to differentiate a good wine from a not so good wine.
And yes, I agree as well, todays MMO's have become so mechanical at the expense of Social Interaction and features.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It seems then that the Original Logic is agreed upon by many.
Yes I agree too that Refinement is not Innovation. And I agree as well that old school players do not just ignore any new innovations added. Onthe contrary, new innovations are appreciated, but new innovation's recognition and acknowledgement often get trumped because so many other features got dropped in the process.
Where's this thought that old MMOs had more to them than new MMOs coming from?
I mean, if we don't count things that are just bad design (like the stuff I went over in detail about EQ in my post above), then almost every MMO that comes out has comparatively more features than the previous generation both in gameplay and social interaction.
The content might be more streamlined, the gameplay easier, and people no longer have to make friendships to succeed, but there are definitely not less features than before.
And I don't see any old time players being excited about any new features. I've never seen someone say "I LOVE that SW:ToR has a personal story, now if they just included corpse runs my MMO search would be over forever!" Or anything like it.
Though, again, GW2 might be an exception for some old school players. I get the impression that most people who liked EQ aren't really looking forward to GW2 though.
99% of people reach a point in their lives where they say 'remember when....' and look with great affection at some time in the past. They forget the problems during that time. Maybe because they were young and didn't realize the problems around them, or they weren't yet in a position to be affected by events. In this same vain, most people reach a point where they stop trying to 'keep up' with technology. The old Razor phone was great. What do I need with a smart phone?
This is a rather belabored point of asking the same question regarding MMOs.
At what point do we seem to reach the same place in our evolution. The fault doesn't rest with the MMOs themselves. They are always evolving and giving what the current population is looking for. Otherwise they would go broke. I know some young'uns who have only recently started playing their MMOs, and they are having a great time. No 'This is so much worse than XXXXXXXXX' .. 'Back then, MMOs were better because XXXXXXX'. No, they enjoy the games and have a great time, which is the point of the whole thing (I think). In terms of MMO time, we are like dogs. for every 1 year in the real world seems to be like 7 - 10 in the MMO world. People who have been playing for 3 or 4 years, seem to get caught up in the stagnation.
My questions are simple (Why do we becomse stuck in our ways quicker than the average, as it seems to me. For a technologically inclined group, why do we stagnate so simply?? After careful reflection, when did you begin to notice the 'back when XXXX' phenom was happening?
I'm really tired, so I apologize ahead for a somewhat grim bent.
we didn't grow stagnent, the younger crowd will settle for anything. Just my opinion.
It seems then that the Original Logic is agreed upon by many.
Yes I agree too that Refinement is not Innovation. And I agree as well that old school players do not just ignore any new innovations added. Onthe contrary, new innovations are appreciated, but new innovation's recognition and acknowledgement often get trumped because so many other features got dropped in the process.
And I don't see any old time players being excited about any new features. I've never seen someone say "I LOVE that SW:ToR has a personal story, now if they just included corpse runs my MMO search would be over forever!" Or anything like it.
Though, again, GW2 might be an exception for some old school players. I get the impression that most people who liked EQ aren't really looking forward to GW2 though.
What is there to be excited about?
What personal story? It is the same story for everyone with a few variation possibilities depending on the left or riht choices some players will make in the dialogs....
Some people sound like seeing a Chocolate bar for the first time in their lives.
Compared to what old Schoolers Experienced REAL Personal Stories in the World MMO's that they played...TOR is for kindergarden.
Wing Commander 1, had personal story back in 1990, 22 years ago...you think it impresses anyone who has experienced this? Nothing new for the old schoolers...nothing innovative.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
We have never grown stagnant. MMO's is whats become stagnant. Developers have learned that they can make a streamlined P.O.S game cheeply and feed it to the MMO playerbase, knowing that it will not last longer than 90 days, and knowing that it doesnt have to to make a profit. Just look at the games in the past, with the most recent being TOR that game released in december which was about 4 months ago, and they are just despritaly throwing out free game time. Game will probably be f2p in another 4 months. Nothing on the horizion is going to change the trend anytime soon. TSW will just be another shallow mmo good for a couple months, GWII wont be anything special either. When developers go back to making worlds with some depth then that will be some fresh water in the stagnant MMO pool.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
99% of people reach a point in their lives where they say 'remember when....' and look with great affection at some time in the past. They forget the problems during that time. Maybe because they were young and didn't realize the problems around them, or they weren't yet in a position to be affected by events. In this same vain, most people reach a point where they stop trying to 'keep up' with technology. The old Razor phone was great. What do I need with a smart phone?
This is a rather belabored point of asking the same question regarding MMOs.
At what point do we seem to reach the same place in our evolution. The fault doesn't rest with the MMOs themselves. They are always evolving and giving what the current population is looking for. Otherwise they would go broke. I know some young'uns who have only recently started playing their MMOs, and they are having a great time. No 'This is so much worse than XXXXXXXXX' .. 'Back then, MMOs were better because XXXXXXX'. No, they enjoy the games and have a great time, which is the point of the whole thing (I think). In terms of MMO time, we are like dogs. for every 1 year in the real world seems to be like 7 - 10 in the MMO world. People who have been playing for 3 or 4 years, seem to get caught up in the stagnation.
My questions are simple (Why do we becomse stuck in our ways quicker than the average, as it seems to me. For a technologically inclined group, why do we stagnate so simply?? After careful reflection, when did you begin to notice the 'back when XXXX' phenom was happening?
I'm really tired, so I apologize ahead for a somewhat grim bent.
we didn't grow stagnent, the younger crowd will settle for anything. Just my opinion.
Right, definately agree. Which brings me to the point that the OP made that we stagnate and become set in our ways. I think if you look at it from another direction, perhaps it is the MMO industry which has stagnated and become stuck in their ways or worse in some cases, looking for short cuts at every turn. Some of us are bored of seeing the same ole thing coming down the track especially if the same ole thing is half baked. I can look back at past games I have played and had great fun in, even before MMO's. Games like the King's Quest series and think wow that was fun But I wouldn't necessarily want to be buying games that looked like that today, though I still enjoy puzzle games like Drawn 1 & 2 etc they aren't the same really.
Comments
Yes, I understood this, that is why i replied to you, to try and point out that it is difficult to stay out of Life Lessons because the very essence of the point made in the OP relates to how we function as humans in Life. But I agree it should stay within the context of MMO's.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
There's little hope for a post that opens with hasty generalization either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
These are good points, but you are forgetting that MMOZ actually has 1-5 old features and maybe 2-3 new features. But the old school gamers don't care about new features. They want their old features.
This is when we grow stagnant: When we stop appreciating innovation, and start hating it.
I bet most of the respondants on this thread can quite easily name all the features of the MMOs they used to play that were great that are missing from today's games, but when asked about what innovative features they would like to see added they will probably only come up with 1 or 2 small variations on the formula they feel was perfected 14 years ago.
Well said.
While there have been many good features in earlier MMOs that does not mean all new ideas are bad.
In fact a lot of the problems I have with the genre right now is the lack of innovation,, and I have been playing since Meridian 59 released.
What really made games like UO, AC, DaoC and EQ so great what that they experimented with features and added a lot to a genre that existed before them. Just remaking any of them exactly as they were but with better graphics would be missing the point.
That said, many of the new features are bad but the same could be said about many old features as well.
As I see it should MMOs look on both past and present games features but also add a bunch of new things to them, it is the only way to revitalize the genre that have been riddled with a lot of stagnation for years.
In fact until Wow wiped the floor with the other games there was a lot of innovation going on and clebrating that while complaining that all new features suck is rather silly.
I really cannot accept one of you main points.The part about companys giving players what they want.IMO I think that is exactly what many company decision makers don't do. It's this failure that has caused the wheeping and gnashing of teeth by a signifigant segment of the MMO community.
SWTOR.......... and what it is comest to mind
AOC.....and the debacle it turned out to be
WAR.....theyre down to 1 server last I checked
RIFT ....the WOW slayer.More like the WOW clone
VANGUARD....so much promise unfufilled
And so many in the mmo community lurch from promise to promise searching.Not finding.
Saying that the Old School Players do not care about new features is not quite accurate Sythion, nor true, for me.
What the old school players do not appreciate is that by going to 1-5 features the gameplay experience changed, even if 2-3 new features were added. the right course of action for them would have been going from 1-10 to 1-14. Adding the innovative features on top of the existing and already fun features.
So the perception is that the genre has regressed instead of evolving.
Oh lets remove Housing, its is not needed, lets remove FFA PvP it is not needed lets remove Social tools not needed, lets remove the seamless world.
hey lets add instanced World to replace the seamless world and call that innovation!!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I will agree that analogies are always problamatic. There is always a better one, than what I probably think of. Not sure yours is better TBH, but everyone reads them a bit differently. As far as your analysis of your 'Modern MMO's, I read it as you being one of 'those guys'. Since new gamers are completely satisfied with their experiences in new games, you/we cling to olderr games and the features they offered.
Another one of my poor analyogies would be the 'when I was young, we could choose to get glass bottled coke, and now it's all plastic' Bottles were so much better. Since I didn't grow up in the glass bottle age, I don't think of it as having lost a 'feature', I just view the plastic bottle as the only feature that I'm used to, and see know no reason to go back to glass bottles. That doesn't mean glass bottled milk, wasn't better because of the bottle, but I have no need of this old option. It's just not part of my mindset.
Bad analyody, but hopefully it sort of/maybe/possibly gets my point accross.
I self identify as a monkey.
You know how i feel when i talk about this, i feel like shrek trying to explain to the donkey mmo were about layers, you know all those layers that were pelt off with years. Players didn't grow stagnant, its more like mmo went backward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZnztwiWZo4
Players often endorse MMOs going backwards. But I think its just reactionary at work.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Except that isn't whats happening. Not all games had housing before, not all do now. Same with FFApvp and seamless worlds.
In fact some are going the opposite direction. EQ2 has fantastic housing now. Completely customizable.
There have been new things added and virtually nothing has been taken away. That is progression.
Older gamers who reminisce about the older games and wish for certain aspects to return are not under-appreciating new elements. They really just want a game that offers the potential of what new games bring to the table with the older school philosophy.
I think alot of older gamers admire the polish and finesse of the new games. However that effort is always appliedt to a template that is geared for another generation.
Endorsing the past is good and bad. However, there is still a market for the old school rule set. WoW became a four letter word in the MMO community but it really brought alot of ground breaking elements. The release WoW was a modern image of the older template with next generation influences. It then took its own course. This was great for many but not for individuals looking for modern technology to upgrade what they already loved.
They eventually had to choose between returning to the older template with old technology or a newer template with the technology and advancement they wanted added to an already great concept in a concept that was growing in an entirely different direction.
Fact is different generations have different ideas of what makes an enjoyable MMORPG. The genre just doesnt offer alot of options for those who were content with a ruleset that was less accomodating to the casual payer. Not everyone wants the game to give them the answers to quests. Not everyone wants the game to tell them exactly where you need to go for that next drop in the questline. Some people prefer a community that relies on one another as opposed to generated options for everything so that you do not ever really need to meet, communicate or learn to work with others until you can just click a button that automatically works that out for you.
MMORPGS use to be somewhat like an interactive, community chat service. The community in which you played with was equivelant in importance to the game itself.
That may be nostalgic, however, in the end no game will compare to an environment that offers it. I prefer the old school idea of "here it is,figure it out" method of development and also would like the polish, animations and graphic improvements that are coming out in todays MMOs.
That may make me a person who is looking in the past to some. I look at it as someone who feels as though we lost a great idea in the process of attempting to make progress. Due to that we actually lost alot of what made it special in the first place.
Everything new is pure at its birth and with time it gets corrupted, the examples are everywhere in this world from music to religion/politics to technology.. this is also the case with mmorpgs. Thing is, you can only know the history from the point where you enter it.
A new generation at any point in time starts by throwing away the values of their elders to create their own identity, but ends up taking most of those values at the end, combined with the new that stood the test - This is how the world evolves. If you accept this, logic would suggest that most new will fail the test, but it has to be tried or there would be no progression.
The above is true, and yet it is not at all because nothing is that black and white.
It is an awesome statement that can be used to invalidate any argument from the "old", and the opposite statement is when you don't even know the old you are not qualified to say the new is better.
Black and white, goodnite.
ps. Where is my VR suit with full freedom and natural movement in a endless world, in 1990 I thought that would be the new in 201x.. this "new" just doesnt feel very new to me.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
2 hours ago i stepped into TERA game and after 20 min i stopped playing. Starter AREA of the game is bad but its something these days is prolly common. After start i come in world and i thought hmm nice looking realy nice looking. But then it started for me the fast downfall.
Hold hand the quest giver the oh so familiar quest we have done so manytimes in past kill 10x this collect 4x that.
Grahics alone dont do it for me anymore the whole gameplay UI combat mobs quests its all done before i can't cut it sorry TERA:(
Omg i was depressed after 20min and logout in this new game.
Sorry i realy can't play this kind of games anymore ive had it with this mediocre replay im eather burnout forever or maybe GW2 will give me back the enthousiastic feeling and fun back or im forever lost to mmo's im affraid.
If this is stagnant so be it i just can't play these games anymore they are prolly for new generation i grow out of this kind of games.
It's not a generational thing. It's an appreciation thing. I'm an old school gamer too, but I can see what games bring to the table. My bithcing (and I do more of it than a lot of other old school gamers do), comes because the genre doesn't try enough to evolve itself.
First everything was stuck on EQ based mechanics, and one or two little innovations were added. EQ with FFA PvP or EQ with a changable world with a vassal system, or EQ in space with random missions.
Then WoW came, and things changed, and the future looked bright. Quests could now be enjoyable, and people could enjoy content without having to "grind" to power up. Then everything followed the same process, but mostly did it worse (making quest grind the new thing). And now we have WoW with instanced and FFA PvP, WoW with combos and blood, WoW with hobbits, WoW with light sabers and VO, WoW with spandex and flight, WoW with action combat.
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
And while I've heard people refute my points on motivation for wanting the good old days, I've yet to hear one proponent suggest innovating past the good old days in any way.
It's not a generational thing. It's an appreciation thing. I'm an old school gamer too, but I can see what games bring to the table. My bithcing (and I do more of it than a lot of other old school gamers do), comes because the genre doesn't try enough to evolve itself.
First everything was stuck on EQ based mechanics, and one or two little innovations were added. EQ with FFA PvP or EQ with a changable world with a vassal system, or EQ in space with random missions.
Then WoW came, and things changed, and the future looked bright. Quests could now be enjoyable, and people could enjoy content without having to "grind" to power up. Then everything followed the same process, but mostly did it worse (making quest grind the new thing). And now we have WoW with instanced and FFA PvP, WoW with combos and blood, WoW with hobbits, WoW with light sabers and VO, WoW with spandex and flight, WoW with action combat.
And people here want the genre to go back to EQ-style games. It's literally backwards.
And while I've heard people refute my points on motivation for wanting the good old days, I've yet to hear one proponent suggest innovating past the good old days in any way.
I woud propose that innovation could be executed in a multi-faceted manner. You could go the direction things are headed and also take what was already given (backwards thinking) and make a refined version of that. WoW offered many improvements to the MMO genre, however it also destroyed alot of what made it enjoyable to not only the older generation but a corner of the new generation if given the same opportunity in a next gen environmant. I cannot think of one area of life where one would dump the wisdom of the past in order to create a better future. There was much to be said about what started this all out. If there was not, we wouldnt have what we do today. Why do we feel a need to consider the old template of MMORPGS as irrelevant? That makes no sense.Ive not played it yet so its pure speculation and what ive seen so far from all videos and previews seems going into right direction.
Im talking offcorse GW2, seems a good step in right direction and not a simple EQ/WoW clone, but a complete other game with alot of innovations we all want so much.
But again ive not played it and maybe its crap, for me thats expensive crap then if thats case i bought blindly CE but thats the risk i took and i wont come here screaming about when GW2 is not what i thought it would be future will tell:)
They often wax eloquently about the quality of the gamers being lower than it was in the past; which suggests a conceit about their own inherent superiority that may not be justified. But it's the sort of "everybody knows" folk wisdom that only grows by constant repetition; my grandfather was also certain that modern kids were somehow implicitly lacking. So was Plato.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So a couple of things to clarify here.
First off, refinement is not innovation. "EQ but better" is not innovation. It's Vanguard with worse crafting and no diplomacy card game.
Second, I don't think we should throw away the wisdom of the past, but I don't think we should throw away calculators and switch to abacuses because it helps you think more logically. The move to new things already incorporates the past, so there's no need to redo things the same way as before. Although, I will admit, there are times when there are certain things which are not given the full range of exploration that they should have been given, and need to be revisited (in all facets of life), EQ-style gameplay is not one of those things.
Third, I think there needs to be a little bit of analysis on why some of the existing old mechanics for MMOs were so great. Let's go over some of the common flaws-cum-communalizers. All of these seem like horrible gameplay experiences on the outside, but you have secret knowledge that points out just how much they actually enhanced your experience.
Resurrections. Sure, it might not seem like fun to have to wait for 10 minutes for someone to come resurrect you, but man, that sure brought people together a lot more than today's games, didn't it?
Corpse runs. These were rough! But that's the hole point! MMOs used to be challenging, but now they're just hand holding cake walks. And the thrill of getting your corpse back, knowing what was on the line if you failed... exhilerating!
Mob trains, Mob speed, Chase to zone, Aggro ranges. Again, it makes things rough, but EQ really let you know what was on the line! If you weren't careful and skilled (same thing) then you could have a guaranteed death on your hands!
Unsoloability. Sure, you couldn't do everything yourself, or at least most classes couldn't. But that's the point of these tough games! By forcing people to work together you really create the community that makes these games strive!
Few quests. Okay, so there was definitely a grind in EQ, but so what? Today's quest driven games just spew worthless nonsense anyway, and they have actually made the world LESS interactive by taking away any sense of discovery or exploration.
So these are all valid points someone defending the good old days might bring up. But when we look at them more closely, some gaps start to appear in the logic.
Do we really need flawed mechanics like a resurrections, and the inability to solo to bring us together in groups, or is there a better way? Arguably, a lot of today's games bring people together better than the old ones, just in different ways that appear quite alien and may seem a little shallow at first.
Do corpse runs and crazy mob antics really provide difficulty? Well, it certainly provides a risk/reward situation, but that's not necesarily difficult content. That's just content that enforces risk management. Would the challenge of a game be better off rewarding skill rather than caution?
While I actually agree that today's quest grind system has taken away the sense of exploration, it doesn't have to be that way. There are several games coming out that are focusing on that aspect of the game pretty heavily.
So, when it comes down to it, EQ definitely did not have misudnerstood but objectively superior mechanics. It had flawed gameplay mechanics that became ingrained as part of your gameplay experience, and so are subjectively superior to you. That's normal. That's what happens with any art form (liberal use of the term) that we try to analyze and judge versus a similar piece of work.
However, it does not mean that anyone should cater to you, or that you should feel slighted because they don't. Your opinion has been formed in a way that is not able to improve the art form in its current direction, and so should not be considered in when we look for ways to do so.
Isnt it strange that in these social network times, mmorpgs are getting less social
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
It seems then that the Original Logic is agreed upon by many.
Yes I agree too that Refinement is not Innovation. And I agree as well that old school players do not just ignore any new innovations added. Onthe contrary, new innovations are appreciated, but new innovation's recognition and acknowledgement often get trumped because so many other features got dropped in the process.
And in the end, innovation or not, if the experience get simplified and a game does not deliver an experience on par with what came before it that the old schoolers may have experienced, the game as a whole will still be viewed as a regression overall.
The difference I beleive between old school players and newer players is that old school players evaluate the complete experience and do not get excited by a single feature often promoted to death by the marketing machine of the new MMOs.
It is all sparkling Dust to many of the oldschooler and what counts is the hands on overall experience.
And it is normal to see things like that, if you are new to drinking wine then all wines can be Great and have a sumptuous Flavor but if you have been around for a while you devellop an ability to differentiate a good wine from a not so good wine.
And yes, I agree as well, todays MMO's have become so mechanical at the expense of Social Interaction and features.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Where's this thought that old MMOs had more to them than new MMOs coming from?
I mean, if we don't count things that are just bad design (like the stuff I went over in detail about EQ in my post above), then almost every MMO that comes out has comparatively more features than the previous generation both in gameplay and social interaction.
The content might be more streamlined, the gameplay easier, and people no longer have to make friendships to succeed, but there are definitely not less features than before.
And I don't see any old time players being excited about any new features. I've never seen someone say "I LOVE that SW:ToR has a personal story, now if they just included corpse runs my MMO search would be over forever!" Or anything like it.
Though, again, GW2 might be an exception for some old school players. I get the impression that most people who liked EQ aren't really looking forward to GW2 though.
Whipper snappers.
Yes I played SWTOR.
What is there to be excited about?
What personal story? It is the same story for everyone with a few variation possibilities depending on the left or riht choices some players will make in the dialogs....
Some people sound like seeing a Chocolate bar for the first time in their lives.
Compared to what old Schoolers Experienced REAL Personal Stories in the World MMO's that they played...TOR is for kindergarden.
Wing Commander 1, had personal story back in 1990, 22 years ago...you think it impresses anyone who has experienced this? Nothing new for the old schoolers...nothing innovative.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
We have never grown stagnant. MMO's is whats become stagnant. Developers have learned that they can make a streamlined P.O.S game cheeply and feed it to the MMO playerbase, knowing that it will not last longer than 90 days, and knowing that it doesnt have to to make a profit. Just look at the games in the past, with the most recent being TOR that game released in december which was about 4 months ago, and they are just despritaly throwing out free game time. Game will probably be f2p in another 4 months. Nothing on the horizion is going to change the trend anytime soon. TSW will just be another shallow mmo good for a couple months, GWII wont be anything special either. When developers go back to making worlds with some depth then that will be some fresh water in the stagnant MMO pool.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Right, definately agree. Which brings me to the point that the OP made that we stagnate and become set in our ways. I think if you look at it from another direction, perhaps it is the MMO industry which has stagnated and become stuck in their ways or worse in some cases, looking for short cuts at every turn. Some of us are bored of seeing the same ole thing coming down the track especially if the same ole thing is half baked. I can look back at past games I have played and had great fun in, even before MMO's. Games like the King's Quest series and think wow that was fun
But I wouldn't necessarily want to be buying games that looked like that today, though I still enjoy puzzle games like Drawn 1 & 2 etc they aren't the same really.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P