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PVP moves to the forums

UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member

So, there's some guerrilla forum posting going on over in the PVP forums on the Official site. One of the subcribers posted a constructive thread where he made suggestions on what they could change to 'fix' pvp. His original post was outright deleted after significant community activity. Now, various posters are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole with the mods (always a good sign) and continue to post the original thread content in differing titled threads. Here's the original post:

 

 

 









Originally Posted by redmarx


allow me to preempt the responses: 



"biowarea and 1.2 are awesome you just haven't gotten used to the changes yet, well fine you predicted all the issues so biowarea should hire you and fire their lead developers, stop being an egomaniac, you're wrong, i'm an ea employee and i'm loving 1.2 and so are all these fictitious friends of mine, etc..."



here's the most important response: What is done is done, no use crying over 1.2 now, so what would you do to fix it?



Fine, i'll give it a shot. I expect to get flamed but alea iacta est, here we go:



General:



- put all the ctrl+x type keybinds on the keybinds menu so they can be changed. (looking at you "ambience")

- add option to remove or move the red text spam in the middle of the screen and its accompanying noise.

- allow buffs/debuffs to be resized and moved independently from unit frames.

- reduce some of the costs on the legacy stuff, as an aggregate it is simply too much, this isn't korea.

- merge the servers: Time to stop being arrogant, admit that you screwed up and the game needs this step to improve and draw new players. Cross-server queueing will only help if people have healthy guilds and a server community to come back to after the warzone is done.



Pvp rewards:



- rewards for losing become 75% of the rewards for winning in non-rated, 50% of the reward for winning in rated.

- if you get vote-kicked or leave a warzone early, you earn no rewards.

- reduce cost of pvp consumables.

- return to same credits, xp, etc rewards for warzones as pre-1.2.

- let unbalanced warzones shut down like they should.

- reduce the gap between recruit gear and bm gear by boosting the stats on recruit gear to help new players.

- add mods and enhancements to the pvp vendors covering stat combinations such as crit/surge, crit/power, etc - each costing 1/2 of the value of a bm or wh set piece.

- add a symbolic +1 to every stat on high rated warzone gear so it is ever so slightly better than war hero gear.



Class balance:



- equalise the expertise benefits to mitigation/healing/damage to the same ratios as pre-1.2.

- revert all class balance changes to pre-1.2 when the overall balance was frankly a lot better.



- after that (so going from pre-1.2 class balance), specific class balance changes for empire and republic mirror classes (i'll use empire terminology from here on) like so:

- reduce the duration of the uninterruptible buff on healing spec bounty hunter energy shield from 12 to 6 seconds.

- increase the number of targets benefiting from kolto missile to 8, increase the heal by 20%, reduce kolto residue to 3%/6%.

- reduce the cooldown of jolt for deception assassins to 6 seconds talented, and swap the positions of the talents fade and disjunction in their respective trees.

- for powertech, move puncture talent up to 4th tier of the advanced prototype tree.

- give snipers the 20% heal debuff, they do need it.

- remove friendly force pull extrication from sorcerors, give it to healing spec operatives with the same graphic as powertech grapple, replace extrication with a 25% damage reduction for 6 secs every 2mins defensive cooldown.

- reduce the damage of chain lightning by 10%.

- make thundering blast instant-cast and creeping terror do the same damage but over 6 seconds instead of 18 to encourage non-hybrid specs.

- reduce the damage of operative backstab by 20%, reduce its cooldown from 9 seconds to 6 seconds.

- since they cannot code an actual fix to the double hidden strike bug and the double force bending bug, simply use this bandaid: Dark infusion and hidden strike both have a 1.5 second cooldown (will prevent double dipping)

- increase the cooldown of undying rage to 3 mins with a talent in tier 4 of carnage tree to make it 90secs, keep camouflage at 50% with no booster talent.

- change juggernaut talent decimate to increase damage of smash by 5/10% rather than 10/20%.



Those are all the changes i feel qualified to make. There might be others that i have missed, i'm just writing this post as i go along. Evaluate the changes for 1 week, tweak class balance, then introduce rated warzones pre-season. Evaluate again for 1-2 weeks, tweak class balance, and then launch season 1.



Finally 2 very important things for biowarea:



- let people make level 50s on pts: There was no testing done for 1.2 because of this simple yet somehow inexplicably lacking process, give players the tools, add a npc that sells xp for free, it's that simple. The ranked warzone failure was due entirely to this, because all your "ranked warzone focus testing" on 1.2 pts had no participants.



- stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice: They know your game better than you do. You might think you have solid internal metrics but you are wrong, your metrics are ****. Your best players analyse the metagame better than you can, with better contextual knowledge from actual gameplay experience, so listen to them carefully and you won't make mistakes like 1.2 again.



So many negative changes occurred because biowarea listened to the players who don't really understand the game and don't approach pvp in an analytical manner - learn to filter the feedback so you can ignore the whining of bad/inexperienced/incoherent players and listen to the analysis and experience of good players. 



How can you differentiate the two? 



You need to listen to people who have been level 50 in dedicated pvp guilds for a long time, who play in premades and spot the imbalances, and further down the line those with the highest ratings - engage with them and turn pvp class balance matters into a dialogue rather than a soliloquy.



...





Ps: Get ilum working. There's a long and well-written thread on this pvp forum for you to read and use for a full ilum redesign. Why have you ignored that thread? Swallow your misplaced pride, use the solutions savvy players are offering you for free, and get it done.


 


When mods get down into the dirt like this, it never ends well. Teala was right, "TORtanic" indeed.

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Comments

  • OpapanaxOpapanax Rochester, NYPosts: 973Member

    Moderators over there have been in a constant fued against this for months. I've seen many, many constructive post deamed unsuitable for thier forums. They get moved sometimes and placed in necro threads that are so conveluted with other stuff it's impossible to get any POV through.

    I don't know it seems like it's beginning to boil over a bit on those forums. I mean they can't ban and mod out everything the swarm of shit is pilling up over there. /shrug

    I don't see why people put themselves through the headache right now. Should just break parts with SWTOR for a bit and let them get a hold of things. I guess it's not up to the players to do that, cause as long as they keep getting charged for those misteps the more they're gonna post stuff.

    I can only imagine what the "Biodrones" are posting in response, the regurgetated shit that's been passed through secret EA e-mail channels to their proxies..

    Their giving people Gamers Stockhom Syndrome over there..

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon

     
    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

  • SuiMeSuiMe GeelongPosts: 16Member

    The PvP in  TOR is going down exactly  the same road it did in WAR with exactly the same excuses from the devs.

    It won't get better because they  won't listen and know better than their players (sic)

    Brick wall, meet head  :-(

    ________________________
    It's a game, ffs.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Praetalus

     

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

    That sounds like what BW would say instead of listening.

    That entire post is right, whether people agree or not.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member



    Originally posted by SuiMe
    It won't get better because they  won't listen and know better than their players (sic)

    Now I never really read comments, interviews, or posts from bioware before their games started to suck.  So take this with a grain of salt but bioware devs are easily some of the most arrogant people I have ever heard. They always talk like they know what you really want and if you don't like there stuff it is never because it's bad but because it's either just different or you don't understand it.  

    Also their forum mods were jerks in beta as well.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

    Originally posted by Praetalus

     

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

    Seems to me that the guy who posted that feedback is trying to save a game he really loves. If the devs read that post in that light, it would do a lot of good for the game and for the core of the community.

     

    The main point, to me, is not that the devs  have to make the changes or do what the poster says.

     

    The real issue is about how EA/BW approach feedback from clearly intelligent and concerned members of their community (i.e., paying customers who care) that would make a huge difference for the better of SWTOR.

  • spookydomspookydom BristolPosts: 1,782Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Praetalus

     

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

    Seems to me to come from a very frustrated person with a lot of passion for the game.

    image

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SuiMe

    The PvP in  TOR is going down exactly  the same road it did in WAR with exactly the same excuses from the devs.

    It won't get better because they  won't listen and know better than their players (sic)

    Brick wall, meet head  :-(

    My thoughts as well. In beta the devs rarely communicated with testers, and when they did grace the forums to discuss something, if you weren't a fanboi, bum kisser, your opinion was deleted or ignored. BW egos were off the chart, and still are.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member


    Originally posted by Praetalus
    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.
    I concur. I have no idea whether the class balancing ideas are right or wrong because I don't play SWTOR but "listen only to premade members and highest ranked players" is just plain wrong in any case. I was once a member of Malice, one the best PvP guilds in WAR. And we never posted crap like this on WAR official forums.

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • BardusBardus Cornet, ALPosts: 460Member

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by Praetalus

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.





    I concur. I have no idea whether the class balancing ideas are right or wrong because I don't play SWTOR but "listen only to premade members and highest ranked players" is just plain wrong in any case. I was once a member of Malice, one the best PvP guilds in WAR. And we never posted crap like this on WAR official forums.

     

    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.

    -just saying

    image

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member

    As expected, the mods won the battle by banning the 10-15 people who kept reposting the original thread. But, BW continues to lose the war. Anytime your mods have to be THAT heavy handed to keep control of the forums, you're displaying just how weak your position is.

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,148Member Uncommon

    SWToR not a very good PvP game, imo.  I will often do my daily PvP quest and all that and it is fun enough.  But I wouldn't call it anywhere even close to balanced.  Nor is it very complex or as engaging as other games I play.

    But for me SWToR is mostly about the PvE anyways.  I know well now that 2-sided wars do not make for very good PvP games. 

    image
  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Bardus


    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     


    Originally posted by Praetalus

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.




    I concur. I have no idea whether the class balancing ideas are right or wrong because I don't play SWTOR but "listen only to premade members and highest ranked players" is just plain wrong in any case. I was once a member of Malice, one the best PvP guilds in WAR. And we never posted crap like this on WAR official forums.

     

    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.

    -just saying

     

    Ooh, nice.
  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member


    Originally posted by Bardus
    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.
    Did you play WAR at launch? The game could only be salvaged FF XIV style and even then who knows how many people would return...
     
    Anyway, I didn't mean posting criticism and suggestions is bad. I meant three things:
    1) Elitistic or patronizing attitude doesn't add credibility.
    2) Listening to a select minority exclusively will keep only the said minority happy (at best).
    3) It's definitely not fair and not realistic as long as every player pays the same monthly fee.

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SuiMe

    The PvP in  TOR is going down exactly  the same road it did in WAR with exactly the same excuses from the devs.

    It won't get better because they  won't listen and know better than their players (sic)

    Brick wall, meet head  :-(

    Its amazing how people can invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a product's development but allow the same failed practices to take over.  I guess thats what you get when you allow EA to run things.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon

    "stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice: They know your game better than you do. You might think you have solid internal metrics but you are wrong, your metrics are ****. Your best players analyse the metagame better than you can, with better contextual knowledge from actual gameplay experience, so listen to them carefully and you won't make mistakes like 1.2 again."

    This is where the problem lies in most cases and people never learn, that or they do it on purpose so they can then cry foul when it's removed 'but. but.. my post was constructive". You lose that when you speak in such a way as demonstrated above. I'd say this toward any company bad experiences or not. From SOE, FC, to Bioware, they're not going to raise much of an eye on a moderation level, until people start speaking like this toward the company or each other.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by Bardus

    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.







    2) Listening to a select minority exclusively will keep only the said minority happy (at best).

    3) It's definitely not fair and not realistic as long as every player pays the same monthly fee.

     

     

    Listen to the players that are on 1-2 hours a night or listen to the ones that are on all the time and crunching the numbers, hmm...

    TOR is in the shape it's in because they're already listening to the wrong people; to the ultra casuals.  It's why there's no community, no long term outlook, no MMO or Star Wars feeling to the game.  When gear is way too easy to get and the content that delivers said gear is either way too easy or just buggy, it's time to start listening to the players that have long term vested interest.

    I'm not saying build a game around hardcore players, i'm just saying they know the game better than anyone else, including BW.

     

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by Bardus

    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.





    Did you play WAR at launch? The game could only be salvaged FF XIV style and even then who knows how many people would return...

     

    Anyway, I didn't mean posting criticism and suggestions is bad. I meant three things:

    1) Elitistic or patronizing attitude doesn't add credibility.

    2) Listening to a select minority exclusively will keep only the said minority happy (at best).

    3) It's definitely not fair and not realistic as long as every player pays the same monthly fee.

     

    Ahhh, so classes shouldnt be balanced since army of terribads whines about something?

    rofl

    thats why SWTOR will fail, because thats exactly what they are doing. Listening to people that pretty much dont know what they are doing. Direct result of that is PvP/PvE that is MORE imbalanced than after alegged "balance" patch.

    Ah well, dont play any more so dont really care that much, but when PvP is denerating so fast - yah, theyre doing it WRONG lol

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member


    Originally posted by Alders
    and crunching the numbers, hmm...
    I didn't say anything about numbers. :) Relevant math, logic and statistics should add value to opinions. But this has nothing to do with running a premade or being a member of a specific guild.
     

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Alders

    I'm not saying build a game around hardcore players, i'm just saying they know the game better than anyone else, including BW.

     

    Knowing how to play a game, isn't the same thing as understanding how the game is put together. I only MOD games myself, but some of that requires a level of work you find in everyday development, depending on how much scripting you need for your mod.

    The main thing you learn is that one thing can break many things even when its focused on the most simple or basic function.

    As an example one wrong variable in a dialogue script can break every single piece of dialogue as well as the npcs in general associated to the questline its tied to in Skyrim. That mistake could be something so simple you don't think about it. Kind of like writing their instead of there when you're in a rush.

    When it comes to combat, it can get a lot more delicate than in those areas above. Many gamers just don't seem to understand building a game is not as they think it is. If they did we wouldn't have all of these "how can one patch break so much stuff!!" threads we see for every game.

    They don't understand in many cases a feature is working during testing, but something else bugs outs or breaks else where during the transition to a live build, and the feature comes out broken. It happens all the time whether it is a major or minor mishap.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    The devs won't listen and the fanbois give them some (poor) excuses to do so. I only ever played one beta weekend of SWTOR and I knew after that first weekend that the game was complete and utter shit, I've played MMOKRPGs with more of a reason to keep you in em than SWTOR had.

     

    From my POV I hope SWToR crashes and burns and takes BW and a good piece of EA with it, it is just better for everyone involved.

     

    To anyone getting ready to lynch me for saying BW should go up in flames: It is very likely that the BW you know and loved has been dead for some time now, it tanked ME3's ending, it shit all over the carpet with TOR and if this is how things are looking I'd rather never see a Dragon Age 3 (loved the first, enjoyed the 2nd).

    image
  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    The person who posted the original thread on the swtor forums was banned for making the thread and can no longer post.

    image

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by spookydom

    Originally posted by Praetalus

     

    That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

    Seems to me to come from a very frustrated person with a lot of passion for the game.

    Could be but he's right PvP is quite a mess in TOR right now and Gabe is lost in the process.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    The error in your thinking is this:

    "If only EA would make better games, they would make more profit."

    They know they sell tons of games, no matter how mediocre their games are. They make their profit, because 90% of all gamers never go to any forums and just buy from hearsay or because they know and love the IP. That is why EA mostly buys existing and succesful studios, milks their franchises as long as it lives from former glory and then buy the next studio when it stops working. Expect them to buy the next studio soon, since Bioware apparently doesn't deliver as expected anymore.

    They don't need to make good games to have their profit. They just need a majority to believe it long enough so they sell enough copies. They brush you off because they can, and we few critical gamers are a minority, and 90% of all game mags in their hands as well. As proven by the absurd high ratings of games lik DA2, ME3 and SWTOR. Even if you like these games, NONE of them was worth the 90%+ ratings by far. The Empire of Evil aka EA has enough power and influence that we critical gamers no longer matter.

     


    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    I know the person who posted the original thread on the swtor forums, he was banned for making the thread and can no longer post.

    If that is true, it just shows how this company has fallen.

    The principle for fair debate has been for over 2000 years "audiatur et altera pars" - the other side may be heard as well. If you kill that principle, you ruin reason itself.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    This was posted by the original poster redmarx on darthhater.com (a SWTOR fansite run by Curse) and was also deleted (guess darthhater got an email from EA):

    wowmarx wrote:

    I only posted it once, and didn't repost it anywhere. I didn't even add to it, I simply let others discuss the thread, which they did, and the discussion was fantastic, cooperative and constructive.

    Dozens - really, dozens - of people said it was the "post of the  year" and "the best PVP post" and "Bioware should hire this person", etc.

    It had hundreds of posts agreeing with it. I wanted to thank people at some point in the thread, and reply to my PMs etc, but I was banned before I could.

    The entire thread was quietly deleted. I can't even reply to all the PMs I got thanking me for writing the post and saying that they agreed.

    They even deleted my forum signature, when I click on that feature it says "Sorry, you are not permitted to have a signature."

    This seems like rather special treatment.

    Someone posted about the deletions of both the original post and the re-posts others did of the original post - and that thread got closed, no doubt it will be deleted shortly also:

     



    ErthAnjil

    Joined: Dec 2011

    Mods Banning players | Today , 04:37 AM

       

    Is there anything we can do about the mods abusing their power permanently banning anyone for posting redmarx post? I think it's getting out of hand with them trying to silence us for a post of constructive criticism that a majority of the players agreed with.

      

    Vaipyr's Avatar

    Vaipyr

    Joined: Jan 2012

    Today , 04:40 AM

       

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ErthAnjil

    Is there anything we can do about the mods abusing their power permanently banning anyone for posting redmarx post? I think it's getting out of hand with them trying to silence us for a post of constructive criticism that a majority of the players agreed with.

    The same 12 or so people spamming it over and over =/= majority. Also the bans were well justified.

     

    http://sigs.enjin.com/sig-swtor/dd2c081cbedbe6c4.png

     

    ekaikaforge's Avatar

    ekaikaforge

    Joined: Jun 2011

    Today , 04:41 AM

       

    What is wrong with a thread of ideas to fix PvP?



    Can a yellow name please explain why that discussion violates the forum rules? There are a hundred other idea threads out there.

       

     

    Ardim's Avatar

    Ardim

    Joined: Sep 2009

    Today , 04:42 AM

       

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ekaikaforge

    What is wrong with a thread of ideas to fix PvP?



    Can a yellow name please explain why that discussion violates the forum rules? There are a hundred other idea threads out there.

    This. Honestly :/

     

    The Alabaster Legacy

    Server: Canderous Ordo

    Isaac: Sith Marauder Skradin: Mercenary Washington: Operative

     

    Arzhanin's Avatar

    Arzhanin

    Joined: Jul 2010

    Today , 04:53 AM

       

    Hello folks,



    While we understand you can get frustrated at moderation actions taken which you do not agree with, please note that discussion of specific moderation actions is not allowed on the forum. This includes discussion regarding content that was part of a post that was moderated.



    If you have a concern about moderation or specific moderation action taken by us, you may feel free to e-mail communitysupport@swtor.com, so that we can receive your concerns directly.



    We'll be closing this thread now. Thanks for your understanding.

     

    image

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