I hope there is a way to police these folks and I hope GW2 comes down hard on them.
People who buy gems can trade for gold, so if people want to buy gold they can do it indirectly. Gold farmers, who can't really be trusted with credit card information, have to compete with a source of gold that can be trusted.
There was a video of a man who works for a gold-farming company in World of Warcraft. He isn't a gold-farmer, he is just the man that finds the demand for it and then requests a gold-farming company to fill the order. Anyways, he said that they are at the mercy of the game companies and that the only reason they exist in games with subscription fees is because usually the gold cannot be purchased in a way that is safe for the customers. When the customers have a safe way to buy gold, the farmers cannot sustain themselves.
Do you have a link to the video...or I can hunt for it if you remember any key words.
Apparently they choose the stupid easy route that damages the integrity of the game. Legalized RMT. Pretty stupid and I hope they change it. How do you keep gold sellers out of a game that you have to pay to have access to? Banning them. Arenanet did not ban bots in GW1 until people complained, then they did it once and did not keep up with it. Anyone who played can remember the streams of monk bots with Chinese Engrish names running out of towns like Riverside province, Bergan hotsprings ETC.
Gems are just legalized RMT and Anet is now the RMT. Chinese farmers can't compete with that, but now you can just buy your prestiege, commander position and anything else you want with $$. Except since Anet's doing it, you won't get banned for it. Oh yeah, and Anet gets to fill their pockets.
Also, NCSoft doesn't care about bots or farmers starting from way back in Lineage II they were free to walk around and do as they please. Maybe even earlier, but that's the first NCSoft game I've played.
in a sub model game, the company relies on subs so doesn't really want to ban as many as you'd think. the gold sellers take up a good number of subs and pay for it. losing them, is losing money.
ftp model, it costs the company nothing to ban your account, because you already bought the box. the company can afford to be more aggressive and creative when dealing with them. admittedly, subpar ftp games don't often do much because they're not as competent or concerned.
however, given anet's obvious love of gaming, i don't see goldsellers being a terrifying issue. combine their cash shop options geared directly toward countering gold sellers by putting that into the players' hands, and you pretty much do away with the aggressive model of gold selling. i think it will be rabid for a few weeks and then die down.
while you won't catch me doing the gems for gold thing, i'd much prefer that method to choking on goldseller spam and having them following me around in robot mode.
So this is another reason to get away from a sub-scription based game...but why oh why are they all over the FTP Aion?
Anet actually did a good job keeping out spam bots. The problem was that they didn't keep out farming bots. A literal river of bot monks flowing out of town means someone is buying gold somewhere. I think it's as simple as going to a search engine and typing in guild wars gold. They don't really need to advertise.
Legalized RMT Gems are not the answer. They may deal with the bots, but they don't get rid of the inherent problem of people cheating by buying gold. They just threw out the rule that it was illegal. See every MMO in history where it was illegal to buy gold. It goes against fairplay.
Stop buying their warez. Seriously, someone is buying fold...and by someone I mean a LOT of someone's...otherwise, they would have given up ages ago.
Personally, I don't really care if people blow real money on virtual stuff, but then I am not that into PVP. /shrug its just a game to me, I guess.I do hate the general chat spamming and messages that come with it, though.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
in a sub model game, the company relies on subs so doesn't really want to ban as many as you'd think. the gold sellers take up a good number of subs and pay for it. losing them, is losing money.
ftp model, it costs the company nothing to ban your account, because you already bought the box. the company can afford to be more aggressive and creative when dealing with them. admittedly, subpar ftp games don't often do much because they're not as competent or concerned.
however, given anet's obvious love of gaming, i don't see goldsellers being a terrifying issue. combine their cash shop options geared directly toward countering gold sellers by putting that into the players' hands, and you pretty much do away with the aggressive model of gold selling. i think it will be rabid for a few weeks and then die down.
while you won't catch me doing the gems for gold thing, i'd much prefer that method to choking on goldseller spam and having them following me around in robot mode.
So this is another reason to get away from a sub-scription based game...but why oh why are they all over the FTP Aion?
reposted with the bit highlighted you didn't read.
I hope there is a way to police these folks and I hope GW2 comes down hard on them.
People who buy gems can trade for gold, so if people want to buy gold they can do it indirectly. Gold farmers, who can't really be trusted with credit card information, have to compete with a source of gold that can be trusted.
There was a video of a man who works for a gold-farming company in World of Warcraft. He isn't a gold-farmer, he is just the man that finds the demand for it and then requests a gold-farming company to fill the order. Anyways, he said that they are at the mercy of the game companies and that the only reason they exist in games with subscription fees is because usually the gold cannot be purchased in a way that is safe for the customers. When the customers have a safe way to buy gold, the farmers cannot sustain themselves.
Do you have a link to the video...or I can hunt for it if you remember any key words.
in a sub model game, the company relies on subs so doesn't really want to ban as many as you'd think. the gold sellers take up a good number of subs and pay for it. losing them, is losing money.
ftp model, it costs the company nothing to ban your account, because you already bought the box. the company can afford to be more aggressive and creative when dealing with them. admittedly, subpar ftp games don't often do much because they're not as competent or concerned.
however, given anet's obvious love of gaming, i don't see goldsellers being a terrifying issue. combine their cash shop options geared directly toward countering gold sellers by putting that into the players' hands, and you pretty much do away with the aggressive model of gold selling. i think it will be rabid for a few weeks and then die down.
while you won't catch me doing the gems for gold thing, i'd much prefer that method to choking on goldseller spam and having them following me around in robot mode.
So this is another reason to get away from a sub-scription based game...but why oh why are they all over the FTP Aion?
reposted with the bit highlighted you didn't read.
I read it but it didn't register in the brain. If Aion wants to survive they need to be concerned.
other than buying gems with stolen credit cards and reselling, which is more of an Anet issue than ours, how one the sellers get the gold... GW2 is pretty much botproof. I am sure there are ways but not easily and why would it benefit them? If we need gold and we have cash to buy it we can sell gems.. but what do we really need gold for? There are no pots/enchants to buy for our 4 day raid schedule. There are crazy high repair costs, no huge needed gold sinks... there are some sure but none will make our play time LESS fun.. they only make it MORE fun.
Back on bots.. how would a bot work? Combat is too complex for a bot. Unless things go back to actual farmers doing it, which would probably be too much money for them to make a profit, I don't see what they could do to fund a gold selling market.
I just don't think we need to worry much about this.. going back tot he worry coming from Aion.. there are many reason to need money in that game.. many many more than in GW2.. That is probably why there is still gold sellers selling
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
For the same reason you wanted to keep them out of GW1. Just because gear is largely cosmetic, as it was in GW1, doesn't mean gold sellers can't damage the economy, as they did in GW1. It was a hard war that Anet eventually won (sort of) and hopefully one they've learned lessons from come GW2, especially with the decision on making cash shop money (gems) tradeable with gold.
Oh and how to keep them out of a game, I doubt you're going to find a suitable answer on the forums considering developers themselves haven't quite figured it out yet. The gem system puts the economy and gold flow more into the players' hands than in most games, and that helps to cut off many gold sellers at the knees, but it's not a perfect solution. Nothing ever really is. The only way to truly stop gold sellers is to make it unprofitable for them to do business, and unless you can get everyone to agree to never buy gold from them (good luck with that) it's not going to happen.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Game design is the biggest culprit. If a player can't make the funds needed just through normal adventuring activities and they are forced to either grind or participate in other activities that they don't want to do ( craft, play the market, raid) then they are going to be more susceptable to gold sellers who take away the pain of grinding for a mount or new armor that should have been attainable at the level it's made for.
I'm sure most have noticed the trend in today's games where casuals are being marketed for, but not necessarily catered to. They make gold acquisition within games a chore, at least in our point of view, probably not for the hardcores that dominate this board. Personally, if a mount is avaialable at level 20, the game should have presented methods of attainment for any play style, not just hardcores, grinders and crafters. It always irritated me in WoW, that I could never come up with the cash needed for my mount at 40 and I was tempted quite often to buy gold, because I'd rather quit than to be forced to grind or play in a manner that doesn't suit me. instead, I ended up re-rolling to druid / warlock / paladin, since I get a mount / form for free. So I can deeply sympathize with those who do buy gold and I can also see that the developers and the way they still design their games are the real reason why it's so incredibly rampant.
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
spamming and account theft I think that pretty much sums it up for GW2
And let's not leave out the fact that some people doing the actual farming are actually slave labor. There have been stories about prison staff in China and elsewhere making prisoners work as gold farmers 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with punishments for not meeting their quota. Before anyone says something about that not being a bad gig for a prisoner, remember that a lot of prisoners in some of these nations aren't actually criminals, but political prisoners and no matter how good a game is, being forced to gold farm 12/7/365 would drive anyone insane in fairly short order!
I hope there is a way to police these folks and I hope GW2 comes down hard on them.
People who buy gems can trade for gold, so if people want to buy gold they can do it indirectly. Gold farmers, who can't really be trusted with credit card information, have to compete with a source of gold that can be trusted.
There was a video of a man who works for a gold-farming company in World of Warcraft. He isn't a gold-farmer, he is just the man that finds the demand for it and then requests a gold-farming company to fill the order. Anyways, he said that they are at the mercy of the game companies and that the only reason they exist in games with subscription fees is because usually the gold cannot be purchased in a way that is safe for the customers. When the customers have a safe way to buy gold, the farmers cannot sustain themselves.
Do you have a link to the video...or I can hunt for it if you remember any key words.
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
They'll handle it in a same way they do in GW1... Whoever is reported of gold selling or suspicious activity - perma ban with a nice Dhuum animation shortly after the reports occur..
And let's not leave out the fact that some people doing the actual farming are actually slave labor. There have been stories about prison staff in China and elsewhere making prisoners work as gold farmers 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with punishments for not meeting their quota. Before anyone says something about that not being a bad gig for a prisoner, remember that a lot of prisoners in some of these nations aren't actually criminals, but political prisoners and no matter how good a game is, being forced to gold farm 12/7/365 would drive anyone insane in fairly short order!
since bots work in most games, cheap labor isn't used much anymore. With bots really not working in GW2 this is a concern for GW2 over others. I wish that those buying gold cared about that : /.
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
For the same reason you wanted to keep them out of GW1. Just because gear is largely cosmetic, as it was in GW1, doesn't mean gold sellers can't damage the economy, as they did in GW1. It was a hard war that Anet eventually won (sort of) and hopefully one they've learned lessons from come GW2, especially with the decision on making cash shop money (gems) tradeable with gold.
Oh and how to keep them out of a game, I doubt you're going to find a suitable answer on the forums considering developers themselves haven't quite figured it out yet. The gem system puts the economy and gold flow more into the players' hands than in most games, and that helps to cut off many gold sellers at the knees, but it's not a perfect solution. Nothing ever really is. The only way to truly stop gold sellers is to make it unprofitable for them to do business, and unless you can get everyone to agree to never buy gold from them (good luck with that) it's not going to happen.
How are they harmful? Inflate costs... provide new players an advantage? what is it that makes them so evil. Im sorry i have been playing in mmos for over 10 years now and i was never like DAM gold sellers, but one time in atlantica when i couldn't find mobs to kill.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
spamming and account theft I think that pretty much sums it up for GW2
And let's not leave out the fact that some people doing the actual farming are actually slave labor. There have been stories about prison staff in China and elsewhere making prisoners work as gold farmers 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with punishments for not meeting their quota. Before anyone says something about that not being a bad gig for a prisoner, remember that a lot of prisoners in some of these nations aren't actually criminals, but political prisoners and no matter how good a game is, being forced to gold farm 12/7/365 would drive anyone insane in fairly short order!
Rofl so play games or quary stone?
We knwo most are not in prison, we know most make more money then they would otherwise in better conditions, we know this helps not hurts them. We know it helps the person buying the good, we know this helps others who seel goods (devalued currency), We know this hurts person who never sells and attempts to best gold farmer at their own game.
Lets see what do you need money for in gw2? Stuff that looks cool? Oh no game breaking. Really this is what has you up in arms.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
For the same reason you wanted to keep them out of GW1. Just because gear is largely cosmetic, as it was in GW1, doesn't mean gold sellers can't damage the economy, as they did in GW1. It was a hard war that Anet eventually won (sort of) and hopefully one they've learned lessons from come GW2, especially with the decision on making cash shop money (gems) tradeable with gold.
Oh and how to keep them out of a game, I doubt you're going to find a suitable answer on the forums considering developers themselves haven't quite figured it out yet. The gem system puts the economy and gold flow more into the players' hands than in most games, and that helps to cut off many gold sellers at the knees, but it's not a perfect solution. Nothing ever really is. The only way to truly stop gold sellers is to make it unprofitable for them to do business, and unless you can get everyone to agree to never buy gold from them (good luck with that) it's not going to happen.
How are they harmful? Inflate costs... provide new players an advantage? what is it that makes them so evil. Im sorry i have been playing in mmos for over 10 years now and i was never like DAM gold sellers, but one time in atlantica when i couldn't find mobs to kill.
I started a character on Aion to keep busy while waiting for GW2. I noticed so many gold sellers in the newbie areas...it was disgusting.
I can ignore them, yes, but I found they also were taking away some of my fun of the game.
How are ... or rather how should GW2 handle gold sellers so they don't negatively impact our game play?
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
For the same reason you wanted to keep them out of GW1. Just because gear is largely cosmetic, as it was in GW1, doesn't mean gold sellers can't damage the economy, as they did in GW1. It was a hard war that Anet eventually won (sort of) and hopefully one they've learned lessons from come GW2, especially with the decision on making cash shop money (gems) tradeable with gold.
Oh and how to keep them out of a game, I doubt you're going to find a suitable answer on the forums considering developers themselves haven't quite figured it out yet. The gem system puts the economy and gold flow more into the players' hands than in most games, and that helps to cut off many gold sellers at the knees, but it's not a perfect solution. Nothing ever really is. The only way to truly stop gold sellers is to make it unprofitable for them to do business, and unless you can get everyone to agree to never buy gold from them (good luck with that) it's not going to happen.
How are they harmful? Inflate costs... provide new players an advantage? what is it that makes them so evil. Im sorry i have been playing in mmos for over 10 years now and i was never like DAM gold sellers, but one time in atlantica when i couldn't find mobs to kill.
*sighs*........
I will respond in kind.
*"farts*..........
Thank you for your actual comments of any type, beyond your clearly evident comfirmation bias... (That is sarcastic)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvHcoqru7I
Apparently they choose the stupid easy route that damages the integrity of the game. Legalized RMT. Pretty stupid and I hope they change it. How do you keep gold sellers out of a game that you have to pay to have access to? Banning them. Arenanet did not ban bots in GW1 until people complained, then they did it once and did not keep up with it. Anyone who played can remember the streams of monk bots with Chinese Engrish names running out of towns like Riverside province, Bergan hotsprings ETC.
Gems are just legalized RMT and Anet is now the RMT. Chinese farmers can't compete with that, but now you can just buy your prestiege, commander position and anything else you want with $$. Except since Anet's doing it, you won't get banned for it. Oh yeah, and Anet gets to fill their pockets.
Also, NCSoft doesn't care about bots or farmers starting from way back in Lineage II they were free to walk around and do as they please. Maybe even earlier, but that's the first NCSoft game I've played.
So this is another reason to get away from a sub-scription based game...but why oh why are they all over the FTP Aion?
With B2P and no free demo announced, gold sellers will have a hard and expensive time advertising their service ingame.
Anet actually did a good job keeping out spam bots. The problem was that they didn't keep out farming bots. A literal river of bot monks flowing out of town means someone is buying gold somewhere. I think it's as simple as going to a search engine and typing in guild wars gold. They don't really need to advertise.
Legalized RMT Gems are not the answer. They may deal with the bots, but they don't get rid of the inherent problem of people cheating by buying gold. They just threw out the rule that it was illegal. See every MMO in history where it was illegal to buy gold. It goes against fairplay.
Stop buying their warez. Seriously, someone is buying fold...and by someone I mean a LOT of someone's...otherwise, they would have given up ages ago.
Personally, I don't really care if people blow real money on virtual stuff, but then I am not that into PVP. /shrug its just a game to me, I guess.I do hate the general chat spamming and messages that come with it, though.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
reposted with the bit highlighted you didn't read.
O M G....everyone go out and change your passwords RIGHT now! This vid should be reviewed by anyone who plays a mmo.
I read it but it didn't register in the brain. If Aion wants to survive they need to be concerned.
other than buying gems with stolen credit cards and reselling, which is more of an Anet issue than ours, how one the sellers get the gold... GW2 is pretty much botproof. I am sure there are ways but not easily and why would it benefit them? If we need gold and we have cash to buy it we can sell gems.. but what do we really need gold for? There are no pots/enchants to buy for our 4 day raid schedule. There are crazy high repair costs, no huge needed gold sinks... there are some sure but none will make our play time LESS fun.. they only make it MORE fun.
Back on bots.. how would a bot work? Combat is too complex for a bot. Unless things go back to actual farmers doing it, which would probably be too much money for them to make a profit, I don't see what they could do to fund a gold selling market.
I just don't think we need to worry much about this.. going back tot he worry coming from Aion.. there are many reason to need money in that game.. many many more than in GW2.. That is probably why there is still gold sellers selling
With no mob tapping, the question is why should we?
Also with small gear impact why should we?
CAn you give me a reason why gold sellers are evil ?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
For the same reason you wanted to keep them out of GW1. Just because gear is largely cosmetic, as it was in GW1, doesn't mean gold sellers can't damage the economy, as they did in GW1. It was a hard war that Anet eventually won (sort of) and hopefully one they've learned lessons from come GW2, especially with the decision on making cash shop money (gems) tradeable with gold.
Oh and how to keep them out of a game, I doubt you're going to find a suitable answer on the forums considering developers themselves haven't quite figured it out yet. The gem system puts the economy and gold flow more into the players' hands than in most games, and that helps to cut off many gold sellers at the knees, but it's not a perfect solution. Nothing ever really is. The only way to truly stop gold sellers is to make it unprofitable for them to do business, and unless you can get everyone to agree to never buy gold from them (good luck with that) it's not going to happen.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Don't buy from them
Game design is the biggest culprit. If a player can't make the funds needed just through normal adventuring activities and they are forced to either grind or participate in other activities that they don't want to do ( craft, play the market, raid) then they are going to be more susceptable to gold sellers who take away the pain of grinding for a mount or new armor that should have been attainable at the level it's made for.
I'm sure most have noticed the trend in today's games where casuals are being marketed for, but not necessarily catered to. They make gold acquisition within games a chore, at least in our point of view, probably not for the hardcores that dominate this board. Personally, if a mount is avaialable at level 20, the game should have presented methods of attainment for any play style, not just hardcores, grinders and crafters. It always irritated me in WoW, that I could never come up with the cash needed for my mount at 40 and I was tempted quite often to buy gold, because I'd rather quit than to be forced to grind or play in a manner that doesn't suit me. instead, I ended up re-rolling to druid / warlock / paladin, since I get a mount / form for free. So I can deeply sympathize with those who do buy gold and I can also see that the developers and the way they still design their games are the real reason why it's so incredibly rampant.
spamming and account theft I think that pretty much sums it up for GW2
And let's not leave out the fact that some people doing the actual farming are actually slave labor. There have been stories about prison staff in China and elsewhere making prisoners work as gold farmers 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with punishments for not meeting their quota. Before anyone says something about that not being a bad gig for a prisoner, remember that a lot of prisoners in some of these nations aren't actually criminals, but political prisoners and no matter how good a game is, being forced to gold farm 12/7/365 would drive anyone insane in fairly short order!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
They'll handle it in a same way they do in GW1... Whoever is reported of gold selling or suspicious activity - perma ban with a nice Dhuum animation shortly after the reports occur..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zxvmb8HbA4s#t=27s
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
since bots work in most games, cheap labor isn't used much anymore. With bots really not working in GW2 this is a concern for GW2 over others. I wish that those buying gold cared about that : /.
Heh , it's like asking how to keep the ice cream truck from passing by your house on a hot summer day , you simply don't. :P
How are they harmful? Inflate costs... provide new players an advantage? what is it that makes them so evil. Im sorry i have been playing in mmos for over 10 years now and i was never like DAM gold sellers, but one time in atlantica when i couldn't find mobs to kill.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Rofl so play games or quary stone?
We knwo most are not in prison, we know most make more money then they would otherwise in better conditions, we know this helps not hurts them. We know it helps the person buying the good, we know this helps others who seel goods (devalued currency), We know this hurts person who never sells and attempts to best gold farmer at their own game.
Lets see what do you need money for in gw2? Stuff that looks cool? Oh no game breaking. Really this is what has you up in arms.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
*sighs*........
I will respond in kind.
*"farts*..........
Thank you for your actual comments of any type, beyond your clearly evident comfirmation bias... (That is sarcastic)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I cant see them going out of their way to stop it. You brought their box, your just another notch in their belt now.
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