This is a tough question for me, since I always support more options for more people in MMOs. However, I don't want anything like traditional 15-20+ man raids polluting this game. It's not just the gear grind that bothers me, it's what these big raids do to the community.
Also, not too keen to have live development resources go to raids.
So, in this case, I guess I just have to say "No", there are other games for that.
Now, if Arenanet wanted to create a seperate GW2 based raiding game, or even a Structured Raiding Sub-game that would work like structured PVP, except it would be large dungeon raids; funded and sold seperately? Maybe.
I love raiding, but .. there hasn't been a good raid in a long, long time. Ulduaar was the last time I truly enjoyed raiding. Too many gimmicks (I know Ulduaar had gimmicks too) ..
The unfortunate reality (at least how I perceive it) is that raiding doesn't love games anymore. There was a time when games were designed around raiding in large part. These days they are designed around doing the least amount possible to achieve the shiniest set of pixels.
So maybe not even worrying about raids is a good thing.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The unfortunate reality (at least how I perceive it) is that raiding doesn't love games anymore. There was a time when games were designed around raiding in large part. These days they are designed around doing the least amount possible to achieve the shiniest set of pixels.
A nice long discussion about the effects of making Trophies dirt-common on a player base trained to collect Trophies as the primary pasttime of a game seems to be in order.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Alders The more options the better.
yes and no. more options means less dev time per option, and more complexities due to overlap, especially in regard to pvp vs pve. one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I don't really know what "support" means in this context.
As far as other people having more options to have fun, I support that.
As far as me having fun, I don't care for raids and I have zero interest in cosmetic items. For that reason, I voted "noq." Just because I wouldn't use it. But if other people had fun with it, I wouldn't begrudge them that.
one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.
Don't personally consider that Blizzard's biggest mistake. Balancing PVE and PVP in the same environment has always been a fingernail-pulling level of challenge for developers. Nobody's got it right yet, not even the most popular game on Earth.
I'd look at it from the other side; how many times does it have to fail before devs stop trying to beat the square peg into a round hole?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite? Exclusive loot progression created just for PVP?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite? Exclusive loot progression created just for PVP?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite? Exclusive loot progression created just for PVP?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
Ah, a little playstyle inferiority complex. Thanks for explaining, no time for this...arguments about it tend to run fifty pages, or used to.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
Raiders usually can live with the hardest PvP gear is about as good as raid gear, but in GW2 all lvl 80 geqar will be balanced. That will be a rather hard thing to swallow for regular raiders.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite? Exclusive loot progression created just for PVP?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
Ah, a little playstyle inferiority complex. Thanks for explaining, no time for this.
Not in the least. It's a known fact that this is one of the biggest motivators for both raiders and developers who want to addict them to it. The only way developers can entice these addicts to replay raids ad nauseum is to make them feel like they are superior to regular gamers, both in gear and in gaming social status. Pavlov 101. Maybe I struck a nerve?
I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room. Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended. If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
Raiders usually can live with the hardest PvP gear is about as good as raid gear, but in GW2 all lvl 80 geqar will be balanced. That will be a rather hard thing to swallow for regular raiders.
I think Loke is right.
If we are going to talk about incentives, especially gear, we will have to seperate PVE from PVP. In terms of PvE, I know there are quite of bit of people who just enjoy the progression side of things and expect to be rewarded for their time and effort. When it comes to GW2, I think PvE'ers have a legitimate complaint. Trying to spin this shortcoming by saying "end game starts at level 1" just doesnt work.
PvP is another story. Competition and the thrill of victory are the only rewards needed.
I think the two cant exist in a game together and still work. So a balanced spread of gear across the board is necessary. The PvE'ers get the short end of the stick on this one.
This is GW2, there needs to be an evolution of the Raid if they are going to do it. I would rather see multi-team dungeons. Where multiple teams have to do various things in adungeon for a success. For instance, u get in and u must immediately split up. Things you do in one part of the dungeon effects other parts of the dungeon. The end can be a big raid boss or several bosses based on actions and choices.
The rewards would be cosmetic gear. Maybe the only person who can sell this stuff is at the end if the thing. ( i don't want to call it a raid let's bury that word)
If we are going to talk about incentives, especially gear, we will have to seperate PVE from PVP. In terms of PvE, I know there are quite of bit of people who just enjoy the progression side of things and expect to be rewarded for their time and effort. When it comes to GW2, I think PvE'ers have a legitimate complaint. Trying to spin this shortcoming by saying "end game starts at level 1" just doesnt work.
PvP is another story. Competition and the thrill of victory are the only rewards needed.
I think the two cant exist in a game together and still work. So a balanced spread of gear across the board is necessary. The PvE'ers get the short end of the stick on this one.
It's not a spin, it's how the game is designed.
GW1 isn't that different in this regards. It's the primary difference between lateral and vertical progression. Thus for, most players have been used to games that are ~ 95% vertical progression. Anet's design model flips that on it's head. The vertical just isn't that significant in this game (it's basically about as much as just getting to the point where you can equip a full set of skills / traits) Passed that, it's all about unlocking more customization for your character. Not unlike how in games like BF3, the more you play, the more weapons you get to pick from, and the more variety you have in your loadout.
It can work, it has worked in the past, the general public just isn't used to seeing it in an MMO.
the question should be: would raiders raid purely for cosmetic reward?
This ^
Though, it's already been shown that this game isn't for traditional raiders (or at least, traditional raiders that are opposed to any other system of play). It's a different sort of game, not a game that's labelled as different w/ the exact same mechanics as wow.
Oh yeah i would support raiding content that has just cosmetic rewards, since than in my option the content's actually diffiuclty would be more of a draw to do the content, and maybe even making the raiding content more about lore or other such thigns in the game compared to being abotu gear solely. Now would hardcore raiders want this is a better question, as you do have those that seek to use it as a badge of honor, but then you have those that like challenging pve content that need alot more players to actually do (it is the challenge not the gear that makes them play this content.). It is like those pvpers that use the fact that playing against an actual player over a AI is going to be more fun, when it is a matter of what each player seeks in their playing over what you play agianst that determines how fun it is, and so we get the carebear (pvers) and hardcore (pvers) labels that try to say one style of play is better than another. To me I prefer to have similar rewards for content i do weither that is pve or pvp content, but i want the real difference being how diffiulty the content is from each other, or what gain from it thru playing thru it (such as lore, conclusions to events that I have been playing thru, or additional playstyles.). To me when i play pve content i see the quests as being the prologue as well as first few chapters of a book/story, the small group content such as group quests or instances as being the middle of the story when some things are explain yet more is revealed, and then the raiding content is the actual conclusion of the book showing how all of the previous content being connected even some you never thought it was.
Comments
This is a tough question for me, since I always support more options for more people in MMOs. However, I don't want anything like traditional 15-20+ man raids polluting this game. It's not just the gear grind that bothers me, it's what these big raids do to the community.
Also, not too keen to have live development resources go to raids.
So, in this case, I guess I just have to say "No", there are other games for that.
Now, if Arenanet wanted to create a seperate GW2 based raiding game, or even a Structured Raiding Sub-game that would work like structured PVP, except it would be large dungeon raids; funded and sold seperately? Maybe.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I love raiding, but .. there hasn't been a good raid in a long, long time. Ulduaar was the last time I truly enjoyed raiding. Too many gimmicks (I know Ulduaar had gimmicks too) ..
The unfortunate reality (at least how I perceive it) is that raiding doesn't love games anymore. There was a time when games were designed around raiding in large part. These days they are designed around doing the least amount possible to achieve the shiniest set of pixels.
So maybe not even worrying about raids is a good thing.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The more options the better.
A nice long discussion about the effects of making Trophies dirt-common on a player base trained to collect Trophies as the primary pasttime of a game seems to be in order.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
yes and no. more options means less dev time per option, and more complexities due to overlap, especially in regard to pvp vs pve. one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I don't really know what "support" means in this context.
As far as other people having more options to have fun, I support that.
As far as me having fun, I don't care for raids and I have zero interest in cosmetic items. For that reason, I voted "noq." Just because I wouldn't use it. But if other people had fun with it, I wouldn't begrudge them that.
Don't personally consider that Blizzard's biggest mistake. Balancing PVE and PVP in the same environment has always been a fingernail-pulling level of challenge for developers. Nobody's got it right yet, not even the most popular game on Earth.
I'd look at it from the other side; how many times does it have to fail before devs stop trying to beat the square peg into a round hole?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Being that guild wars 1 had dungeons/instances that only gave cosmetic weapons and took 40-60 minutes it was still fun.
The only reason why players want an advantage in gear is because they are scared their skills arent up to par with their foe in pvp.
-I am here to perform logic
I wouldn´t mind....
But if you think you are not going to have a challenge experience at some dungeons/areas of the game as big as raids.....
...it´s because you don´t know ArenaNet.
No, because the instant you put any traditional raiding content into the game, it's guaranteed that the whining raiders and the capitulating developers would create exclusive loot progression just for raiders, just like every single MMO out there that started with or added raiding at a later date.
No way, the game doesn't need more instances and as for open raids it already have things close to them.
Um, except that PVE gear was always there, and what happened was the opposite? Exclusive loot progression created just for PVP?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Currently, PvP gear is no better and no worse than PvE gear. Raiders would not tolerate equality, it's the mainstay of raiding to be exclusive and superior to other play styles.
Ah, a little playstyle inferiority complex. Thanks for explaining, no time for this...arguments about it tend to run fifty pages, or used to.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Raiders usually can live with the hardest PvP gear is about as good as raid gear, but in GW2 all lvl 80 geqar will be balanced. That will be a rather hard thing to swallow for regular raiders.
Not in the least. It's a known fact that this is one of the biggest motivators for both raiders and developers who want to addict them to it. The only way developers can entice these addicts to replay raids ad nauseum is to make them feel like they are superior to regular gamers, both in gear and in gaming social status. Pavlov 101. Maybe I struck a nerve?
Interesting to see the poll at exactly 50/50.
I can see raids containing gear that is partly cosmetic but not completely.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room. Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended. If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.
I say NO To Raids!
Ratero.
I think Loke is right.
If we are going to talk about incentives, especially gear, we will have to seperate PVE from PVP. In terms of PvE, I know there are quite of bit of people who just enjoy the progression side of things and expect to be rewarded for their time and effort. When it comes to GW2, I think PvE'ers have a legitimate complaint. Trying to spin this shortcoming by saying "end game starts at level 1" just doesnt work.
PvP is another story. Competition and the thrill of victory are the only rewards needed.
I think the two cant exist in a game together and still work. So a balanced spread of gear across the board is necessary. The PvE'ers get the short end of the stick on this one.
No.
This is GW2, there needs to be an evolution of the Raid if they are going to do it. I would rather see multi-team dungeons. Where multiple teams have to do various things in adungeon for a success. For instance, u get in and u must immediately split up. Things you do in one part of the dungeon effects other parts of the dungeon. The end can be a big raid boss or several bosses based on actions and choices.
The rewards would be cosmetic gear. Maybe the only person who can sell this stuff is at the end if the thing. ( i don't want to call it a raid let's bury that word)
the question should be: would raiders raid purely for cosmetic reward?
It's not a spin, it's how the game is designed.
GW1 isn't that different in this regards. It's the primary difference between lateral and vertical progression. Thus for, most players have been used to games that are ~ 95% vertical progression. Anet's design model flips that on it's head. The vertical just isn't that significant in this game (it's basically about as much as just getting to the point where you can equip a full set of skills / traits) Passed that, it's all about unlocking more customization for your character. Not unlike how in games like BF3, the more you play, the more weapons you get to pick from, and the more variety you have in your loadout.
It can work, it has worked in the past, the general public just isn't used to seeing it in an MMO.
Simply put: Yes I would.
Why? Cause if I get raid gear and it looks fugly but there is a raid where I can have some truely bad ass looking gear I am gonna go for it!
This ^
Though, it's already been shown that this game isn't for traditional raiders (or at least, traditional raiders that are opposed to any other system of play). It's a different sort of game, not a game that's labelled as different w/ the exact same mechanics as wow.
Oh yeah i would support raiding content that has just cosmetic rewards, since than in my option the content's actually diffiuclty would be more of a draw to do the content, and maybe even making the raiding content more about lore or other such thigns in the game compared to being abotu gear solely. Now would hardcore raiders want this is a better question, as you do have those that seek to use it as a badge of honor, but then you have those that like challenging pve content that need alot more players to actually do (it is the challenge not the gear that makes them play this content.). It is like those pvpers that use the fact that playing against an actual player over a AI is going to be more fun, when it is a matter of what each player seeks in their playing over what you play agianst that determines how fun it is, and so we get the carebear (pvers) and hardcore (pvers) labels that try to say one style of play is better than another. To me I prefer to have similar rewards for content i do weither that is pve or pvp content, but i want the real difference being how diffiulty the content is from each other, or what gain from it thru playing thru it (such as lore, conclusions to events that I have been playing thru, or additional playstyles.). To me when i play pve content i see the quests as being the prologue as well as first few chapters of a book/story, the small group content such as group quests or instances as being the middle of the story when some things are explain yet more is revealed, and then the raiding content is the actual conclusion of the book showing how all of the previous content being connected even some you never thought it was.