I'm part of the problem. Despite the fact I know I'm not really happy with the design of modern MMO's I keep buying them, even if I end up unsubbing after 1-3 months.
Why? Because I've resigned myself to find the fun in each of them and enjoying what they have (rather than focus on what they lack) for as long as I can.
Only way I could see to stay in the genre and not drop out completely. I tried the single player game route, but MMO's have spoiled me and I can't go back to playing totally solo, at least not long term. (more than a month). Besides, single player titles have changed so much from those I really enjoyed in the 80's and 90s that I can't seem to enjoy them anymore. (where's my damn graph paper)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm part of the problem. Despite the fact I know I'm not really happy with the design of modern MMO's I keep buying them, even if I end up unsubbing after 1-3 months.
Why? Because I've resigned myself to find the fun in each of them and enjoying what they have (rather than focus on what they lack) for as long as I can.
Only way I could see to stay in the genre and not drop out completely. I tried the single player game route, but MMO's have spoiled me and I can't go back to playing totally solo, at least not long term. (more than a month). Besides, single player titles have changed so much from those I really enjoyed in the 80's and 90s that I can't seem to enjoy them anymore. (where's my damn graph paper)
Unless you've played them all, all those old style games are still out there and all playable on your PC when you look in the right places. Same goes for the older MMOs, but there are rules on these forums against talking about those types of servers.
That's ok, everyone's part of the problem. It's how the economy works.
Just spent the better part of a decade being dominated by a single developer; and it takes some time for that effect to fade.
The main idea of this thread is that we all move as a unit (to the 'not-crap' game). But I'd humbly submit that the Herd effect is how we all got into this mess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Then Devs would listen and make a good MMO. Rather than something that makes them some money for about 3 or 4 months then subsides.
I think there are two different business models involved here.
1. It looks to me like some MMORPG games are designed specifically to make money on box sales and place little emphasis on holding a subscriber base. The business model works very much like single player games. Hype the crap out of the game, even so far as to show features that barely exist or don't exist at all, sell the boxes, fire the devs, and laugh all the way tot he bank carrying large bags of money.
2. The other side treats MMORPGs as a service industry. Sell the client, development continues non-stop, hopefully make large amounts of money on subscription sales.
The problem with #2 is that it is risky in terms of return on investment. Holding a playerbase is difficult and very expensive. It's cheaper and less risky to produce overhyped crap and then walk away.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
That's ok, everyone's part of the problem. It's how the economy works.
Just spent the better part of a decade being dominated by a single developer; and it takes some time for that effect to fade.
Thats how I see it. The WoW mold is fading, we got some games comming out this year that are starting down a new path.
But there will always be players that have no problem spending $60 for a month or two of entertainment, its still a pretty cheap investment, you could spend that much on a movie and some popcorn for 2 people.
What you're saying is that some dev goes to a publisher with a plan which sounds like this "Give us 50M and we assure you that after 5 years in development and 2-3 years of possible subs, you'll make a profit".
That is precisely how it is done and not for MMOs only. It is a business plan for any business venture you are planning.
Of course along with this statement, there goes plenty of materials, numbers, data and studies - retention rates included. Then it is up to the publisher/investor to evaluate whether such project is reasonable, viable, profitable and worth putting their money in.
Yep, even "your own math" denies your OP... there is no fast bucks to be made off initial box sales. That simply does not work and I remind that you still failed to provide any numbers supporting your theory.
Originally posted by ActionMMORPG 1. It looks to me like some MMORPG games are designed specifically to make money on box sales and place little emphasis on holding a subscriber base.
This does not really work as I pointed out earlier. I would say you might see examples of such business on asian market but unlikely in western world where game development is very expensive.
I'm part of the problem. Despite the fact I know I'm not really happy with the design of modern MMO's I keep buying them, even if I end up unsubbing after 1-3 months.
Why? Because I've resigned myself to find the fun in each of them and enjoying what they have (rather than focus on what they lack) for as long as I can.
Only way I could see to stay in the genre and not drop out completely. I tried the single player game route, but MMO's have spoiled me and I can't go back to playing totally solo, at least not long term. (more than a month). Besides, single player titles have changed so much from those I really enjoyed in the 80's and 90s that I can't seem to enjoy them anymore. (where's my damn graph paper)
Unless you've played them all, all those old style games are still out there and all playable on your PC when you look in the right places. Same goes for the older MMOs, but there are rules on these forums against talking about those types of servers.
Well, back in the day, I'd say pretty much I played all old style single player RPG games, but the good news with my failing memory I don't remember much about them so a redo probably would be a good plan.
I just recently found a website that has a good inventory of old titles and gave serious thought to taking them up on their recent offer for a free copy of Fallout last weekend. (except, I have played all older Fallout titles several times through, truly some of my favorite games)
So yeah, I might go back and revisit some old friends, but still, I would miss the human interaction I get from MMO's, even though it is pretty slight these days.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What you're saying is that some dev goes to a publisher with a plan which sounds like this "Give us 50M and we assure you that after 5 years in development and 2-3 years of possible subs, you'll make a profit".
That is precisely how it is done and not for MMOs only. It is a business plan for any business venture you are planning.
Of course along with this statement, there goes plenty of materials, numbers, data and studies - retention rates included. Then it is up to the publisher/investor to evaluate whether such project is reasonable, viable, profitable and worth putting their money in.
Yep, even "your own math" denies your OP... there is no fast bucks to be made off initial box sales. That simply does not work and I remind that you still failed to provide any numbers supporting your theory.
It's not "fast bucks", it's money made after 3-5 years of development. There are studies made, data evaluated from graphics with average retention rates of other games over the years etc, that's obvious and it comes into the equation but the only "clear" thing is the box sales estimate, and this should be over development costs. If it's your first MMO as a dev, what would be the only real data that the publisher has from you? They wont just give you money because the idea sounds cool and they estimate that the people will love it and play it for 7 years, really, they want facts. Box sales are facts.
I dont see where my math fails me. What "numbers"? What do you expect me to provide? I do not have official data, and i doubt that you do. I know from some devs i spoke with that no one in the real world would finance a project to make profit in 8 years, and that it is insanely hard to get on the market if it's your first MMO and all they care about is how many boxes you sold for your other titles, but i dont want an argument with you, i'm not looking to prove you wrong or anything, If it makes you feel better, "you win" lol.
Read The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations. You may not agree with it but any thinking person will admit he does make a thought provoking case.
Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How’s that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
— RAH
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Read The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations. You may not agree with it but any thinking person will admit he does make a thought provoking case.
Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. Hows that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
RAH
Or we could go with L Ron Hubbard if we want to take our philosophy from populist Sci Fi writers.
Read The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations. You may not agree with it but any thinking person will admit he does make a thought provoking case.
Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. Hows that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
RAH
Or we could go with L Ron Hubbard if we want to take our philosophy from populist Sci Fi writers.
That idea has potential. Dianteics Online, or World of Scientology. With a few strategic decisions we could turn iit into a religion for the disillusioned. But only if we have aliens at end game. shhh. Nobody can know about that part until the end game.
Or we could go with L Ron Hubbard if we want to take our philosophy from populist Sci Fi writers.
Provided we consider Hubbard a Sci Fi writer, instead of a religious demagogue?
Hubbard's too easy a target. But you make a good point, are we getting into quotable-author-wang size measurement?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
1. It looks to me like some MMORPG games are designed specifically to make money on box sales and place little emphasis on holding a subscriber base. The business model works very much like single player games. Hype the crap out of the game, even so far as to show features that barely exist or don't exist at all, sell the boxes, fire the devs, and laugh all the way tot he bank carrying large bags of money.
That's both paranoid and illogical. If the money men behind the game were that insane and evil, they would just make and hype a single-player game without wasting the time, money and resources on the network and support infrastructures for 2-3 years of the development. Considering these same people intend on developing more games in the future, you're either suggesting they are either as short-sighted as they are diabolical, or you are suggesting that the industry can reliably bank on the average MMO gamer being far more gullible and patently stupid than any other demographic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
These is a saying which applies here, I think 'One man's trash, is another man's treasure'. I find a sort of two step process that seems to happen on these forums.
Step 1: Player decides that MMO X is trash, and because he thinks it's trash, everyone should think its trash. Said player will then move heaven and earth to convince you that your treasure should be considered trash.
Step 2: Another player, or three, sees that another player also views this MMO as trash, and a group/hive scenario begins, with everyone taking up arms and beginning the crusade anew and recruiting others to their cause, trying to beat the loyal opposition into submission.
The kicker to this, is that there are truly trash games out there, but it doesnt come in the relatively adolescent form of 'MMO sucks, because I dont like its combat system, so u shouldn't.', but in terms of game stability, bugs, and a host of other truly metric'd type of reasons.
The key is to evaluate ones own purpose in decrying a game.
Originally posted by simmihi If it's your first MMO as a dev, what would be the only real data that the publisher has from you?
They got your business plan for evaluation, regardless whether it is your first MMO or not.
There are no "real data" nor box sales are facts, there are no box sales before the game is released.
If you do not have "the numbers", do not make claims based on them.
I clearly proved how unreasonable such venture as "let's create many questionable-quality-low-on-content games with some flashy new features, just to sell the box" would be - it is unrealistic to expect any reasonable profit just from box sales of such product.
As pointed out by Loktofeit above, it makes very little business sense.
MMOs are there to make money from longevity, not racking up high initial sales and fade off.
These is a saying which applies here, I think 'One man's trash, is another man's treasure'. I find a sort of two step process that seems to happen on these forums.
Step 1: Player decides that MMO X is trash, and because he thinks it's trash, everyone should think its trash. Said player will then move heaven and earth to convince you that your treasure should be considered trash.
Step 2: Another player, or three, sees that another player also views this MMO as trash, and a group/hive scenario begins, with everyone taking up arms and beginning the crusade anew and recruiting others to their cause, trying to beat the loyal opposition into submission.
The kicker to this, is that there are truly trash games out there, but it doesnt come in the relatively adolescent form of 'MMO sucks, because I dont like its combat system, so u shouldn't.', but in terms of game stability, bugs, and a host of other truly metric'd type of reasons.
The key is to evaluate ones own purpose in decrying a game.
This I agree with. The majority of people who have so much of an interest in MMO's that they frequent forums to discuss the future of MMOs is a small percentage. The majority of MMO players (particularly those who jumped on deck during the mainstream themepark era) are not concerned with these matters. They want polish, the ability to jump in and make progress when they log in with no fuss, good graphics and population. If these are the criteria for the general MMO player than the market is spot on. For those of us who seek more, it is a travesty. Its either sugar or shit, and a good majority think its sugar according to what is making money and what is not.
Sorry but the masses are addicted to games. They just can't stop buying! Who cares how good it is, as long as I have a game to play I feel err normal !
Comments
I'm part of the problem. Despite the fact I know I'm not really happy with the design of modern MMO's I keep buying them, even if I end up unsubbing after 1-3 months.
Why? Because I've resigned myself to find the fun in each of them and enjoying what they have (rather than focus on what they lack) for as long as I can.
Only way I could see to stay in the genre and not drop out completely. I tried the single player game route, but MMO's have spoiled me and I can't go back to playing totally solo, at least not long term. (more than a month). Besides, single player titles have changed so much from those I really enjoyed in the 80's and 90s that I can't seem to enjoy them anymore. (where's my damn graph paper)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Unless you've played them all, all those old style games are still out there and all playable on your PC when you look in the right places. Same goes for the older MMOs, but there are rules on these forums against talking about those types of servers.
That's ok, everyone's part of the problem. It's how the economy works.
Just spent the better part of a decade being dominated by a single developer; and it takes some time for that effect to fade.
The main idea of this thread is that we all move as a unit (to the 'not-crap' game). But I'd humbly submit that the Herd effect is how we all got into this mess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think there are two different business models involved here.
1. It looks to me like some MMORPG games are designed specifically to make money on box sales and place little emphasis on holding a subscriber base. The business model works very much like single player games. Hype the crap out of the game, even so far as to show features that barely exist or don't exist at all, sell the boxes, fire the devs, and laugh all the way tot he bank carrying large bags of money.
2. The other side treats MMORPGs as a service industry. Sell the client, development continues non-stop, hopefully make large amounts of money on subscription sales.
The problem with #2 is that it is risky in terms of return on investment. Holding a playerbase is difficult and very expensive. It's cheaper and less risky to produce overhyped crap and then walk away.
Thats how I see it. The WoW mold is fading, we got some games comming out this year that are starting down a new path.
But there will always be players that have no problem spending $60 for a month or two of entertainment, its still a pretty cheap investment, you could spend that much on a movie and some popcorn for 2 people.
That is precisely how it is done and not for MMOs only. It is a business plan for any business venture you are planning.
Of course along with this statement, there goes plenty of materials, numbers, data and studies - retention rates included. Then it is up to the publisher/investor to evaluate whether such project is reasonable, viable, profitable and worth putting their money in.
Yep, even "your own math" denies your OP... there is no fast bucks to be made off initial box sales. That simply does not work and I remind that you still failed to provide any numbers supporting your theory.
This does not really work as I pointed out earlier. I would say you might see examples of such business on asian market but unlikely in western world where game development is very expensive.
Well, back in the day, I'd say pretty much I played all old style single player RPG games, but the good news with my failing memory I don't remember much about them so a redo probably would be a good plan.
I just recently found a website that has a good inventory of old titles and gave serious thought to taking them up on their recent offer for a free copy of Fallout last weekend. (except, I have played all older Fallout titles several times through, truly some of my favorite games)
So yeah, I might go back and revisit some old friends, but still, I would miss the human interaction I get from MMO's, even though it is pretty slight these days.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not "fast bucks", it's money made after 3-5 years of development. There are studies made, data evaluated from graphics with average retention rates of other games over the years etc, that's obvious and it comes into the equation but the only "clear" thing is the box sales estimate, and this should be over development costs. If it's your first MMO as a dev, what would be the only real data that the publisher has from you? They wont just give you money because the idea sounds cool and they estimate that the people will love it and play it for 7 years, really, they want facts. Box sales are facts.
I dont see where my math fails me. What "numbers"? What do you expect me to provide? I do not have official data, and i doubt that you do. I know from some devs i spoke with that no one in the real world would finance a project to make profit in 8 years, and that it is insanely hard to get on the market if it's your first MMO and all they care about is how many boxes you sold for your other titles, but i dont want an argument with you, i'm not looking to prove you wrong or anything, If it makes you feel better, "you win" lol.
Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How’s that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
— RAH
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. Hows that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
RAH
Or we could go with L Ron Hubbard if we want to take our philosophy from populist Sci Fi writers.Rather read The Wisdom of Heinlein, thanks.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. Hows that again? I missed something."
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"
RAH
Or we could go with L Ron Hubbard if we want to take our philosophy from populist Sci Fi writers.
That idea has potential. Dianteics Online, or World of Scientology. With a few strategic decisions we could turn iit into a religion for the disillusioned. But only if we have aliens at end game. shhh. Nobody can know about that part until the end game.They should stop acting less like gamers and more like customers cause only then they would understand how much power they have in the mmo genre.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Provided we consider Hubbard a Sci Fi writer, instead of a religious demagogue?
Hubbard's too easy a target. But you make a good point, are we getting into quotable-author-wang size measurement?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That's both paranoid and illogical. If the money men behind the game were that insane and evil, they would just make and hype a single-player game without wasting the time, money and resources on the network and support infrastructures for 2-3 years of the development. Considering these same people intend on developing more games in the future, you're either suggesting they are either as short-sighted as they are diabolical, or you are suggesting that the industry can reliably bank on the average MMO gamer being far more gullible and patently stupid than any other demographic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Step 1: Player decides that MMO X is trash, and because he thinks it's trash, everyone should think its trash. Said player will then move heaven and earth to convince you that your treasure should be considered trash.
Step 2: Another player, or three, sees that another player also views this MMO as trash, and a group/hive scenario begins, with everyone taking up arms and beginning the crusade anew and recruiting others to their cause, trying to beat the loyal opposition into submission.
The kicker to this, is that there are truly trash games out there, but it doesnt come in the relatively adolescent form of 'MMO sucks, because I dont like its combat system, so u shouldn't.', but in terms of game stability, bugs, and a host of other truly metric'd type of reasons.
The key is to evaluate ones own purpose in decrying a game.
I self identify as a monkey.
Provided we consider Hubbard a Sci Fi writer, instead of a religious demagogue?
Hubbard's too easy a target. But you make a good point, are we getting into quotable-author-wang size measurement?
Actually, I only really made my comment as I dislike Heinlein so his wang quotient is not high to me.They got your business plan for evaluation, regardless whether it is your first MMO or not.
There are no "real data" nor box sales are facts, there are no box sales before the game is released.
If you do not have "the numbers", do not make claims based on them.
I clearly proved how unreasonable such venture as "let's create many questionable-quality-low-on-content games with some flashy new features, just to sell the box" would be - it is unrealistic to expect any reasonable profit just from box sales of such product.
As pointed out by Loktofeit above, it makes very little business sense.
MMOs are there to make money from longevity, not racking up high initial sales and fade off.
This I agree with. The majority of people who have so much of an interest in MMO's that they frequent forums to discuss the future of MMOs is a small percentage. The majority of MMO players (particularly those who jumped on deck during the mainstream themepark era) are not concerned with these matters. They want polish, the ability to jump in and make progress when they log in with no fuss, good graphics and population. If these are the criteria for the general MMO player than the market is spot on. For those of us who seek more, it is a travesty. Its either sugar or shit, and a good majority think its sugar according to what is making money and what is not.Sorry but the masses are addicted to games. They just can't stop buying! Who cares how good it is, as long as I have a game to play I feel err normal !
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/