Simply having those skills doesnt make it a Trinity based game. And also the Developers have said its not a Trinity based game from the start.
So you should understand why the probablity of you being right is so minimal, which is why I said you were Wrong, and you still are. We could sit here arguing all day, but your ignoring that facts which is what ultimately makes you wrong.
Lets see what youve ignored, and then you tell me if your still right.
THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE GAME SAID ITS NOT A TRINITY GAME, could they be decieving us and actually putting out the best damned trinity game ever made?
No, because that makes no sense, theres a difference between markting something to appeal to a mass market, and marketing something that goes AGAINST the MASS MARKET.
Since they are going AGAINST the MASS MMO market, they have nothing to gain by lying, thus either making them the stupidest dev team in the world or you Wrong.
So again, your wrong.
Guild Wars 2 is not a Trinity game because Anet says it is not.
This is the reason for the discussion, I'm making points which suggest that the statement of " We don't have a trinity" is much to broad , as the typical trinity roles will be performed.
Taken directly from the Guild Wars 2 Website "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control,[...]"
There will still be someone performing the Healers role and someone mitigating damage. It doesn't matter if those roles are able to do more, it doesn't matter than more than one character can perform that role. THE ROLE IS STILL BEING PERFORMED.
I'll avoid being a dick, keep the dicussions civil or I simply won't respond to you any longer.
I am going to laugh my butt off at this thread when I see a group of say 5 necromancers who all are built to spread around and use and transfer conditions/boons completely kick the crap out of the "everyone take a classic trinity role" group.
Or the group of all "defensive" builds kick the crap out of a "man we wish there was a trinity" group.
Guild Wars 2 does have a trinity, but with two main differences differences.
First one is that instead of tank-heal-DPS we have damage-support-control. While some classes have heavier armor than others, or more health, there's no class that will be able to continously get hit by a boss and survive, nor any class that will be able to keep it alive for too long. So basically there won't be any class devoted to tanking or healing, but people that do everything at some point, either damage (DPS), support (healing, providing protections and the like) and control (a bit like crowd control, like the guardian barriers or the ranger traps, to name a few).
The other one, and the biggest one IMHO, is that it isn't a "hard" trinity. I remember them saying somewhere that they wanted to really be a "bring the player, not the class" game, so while there is a trinity of sorts, every single class in the game can perform any of those roles, and will have to perform them at some point to really be effective. So there's no "oh, sorry, you're a mage and we need a tank here, you can't go". Also, if they achieve their goals as they've been stated, people won't say things like "oh, sorry, we need a healing specced elementalist for this one", and more "ok, for this fight when the boss does X we need you to attune yourself to water to help keeping us alive". They specifically said that it would be perfectly feasible to do a dungeon with, for example, 5 thieves.
And, at least to me, after watching several videos, doesn't seem they're too far off that goal. We'll see for ourselves when the game goes live (or, for those of us that pre-purchased, in the next beta.. )
Yes, there will be competitive PvP groups where they build their "team" on a balanced approach to making sure they have someone who is defensively oriented, someone who is healing oriented, someone who is nuke oriented, someone who is debuff oriented, buff oriented, DoT oriented, etc. etc. etc.
But what you are saying is ONE possible way to play the game.
There will be groups of all nukers who kick the crap out of balanced groups. There will be groups of all defensive players who kick the crap out of all nukers...
This still does not mean that there is a Trinity.
Spock this what I've been trying to convey the whole discussion ....
I don't care if you can play another way, I don't care that some groups won't run those types of groups. What I am saying is YOU CAN , thus there is in fact a Trinity present in Guild Wars 2. The only credible arguement against this is if these types of teams were at a significant disadvantage in competitive play and nothing leads me to believe the will be. The Guardians abilities to mitigate damage seem to be some of the strongest in the game currently, likewise so do the Engineers Healing / Support abilities.
It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.
Engineer Skills :
Utility - Healing Turret, Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.
Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.
Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.
Ult : Supply Drop
Elementalist Skills :
Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.
Geyser : Aoe heal
Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover
Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage
Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover
Water Trident : Heal / Damage
----
Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.
The amount it heals isnt enough for it to be considered a healer.
- The 'spamable' heal Water Blast does less than 1% of someones health, as does Cone of Cold and Water Trident.
- The geyser does like 5% health (less than 1 hit of damage from most mobs) and has a long cooldown (20 seconds).
- Healing rain applies regeneration which every single profession has access to, and does not stack except in duration. Very long cooldown to uptime (45 second cooldown, 9 second duration).
- Some of those skills you listed cannot be used at the same time due to being on seperate weapons. (Staff gives healing rain, geyser and water blast. Dagger gives cone of cold, Offhand dagger gives cleansing wave, Scepter gives water trident).
So at most you can have 3 skills that heal other people, and a few traits with splash healing. And none of these skills are particularly powerful at healing. So no, theres no healing role in the game and there is not a significant amount of heals to support a party member.
Support? Yep. Healing? No. 95% of incoming healing will be from your own self heal.
Tank- "OMG I am taking so much damage I can't mitigate enough to do this!"
Healer- "OMG I can't heal enough damage to keep you alive I'm sorry try dodge rolling or something."
DPS-"I can't do enough burst damage to bring someone down before they have time to fight back and they keep healing themselves while raping my health bar! Help!"
Going to be funny to watch.
The real good players/groups will probably kill you without taking 10% damage - they don't need no stinking healers/tanks.
I'm not sure I agree with the analysis assessment in regards to how "the old way" worked, versus "this new way".
I'm assuming they've basically carried forward (generally speaking) what they implemented in the original GW. Ex WoW players will recall when the Isle of Quel'Danis opened and players popped into Magister's Terrace . . . . and ran face first into the one female boss with a random spawn class mix of four attendants. That acted almost like live players with aggro shifts, REFUSING to "respect" the Rules of the Trinity".
Remember that, you ex-WoW players?
Ummm, yes indeed, Magister's Terrace in WoW required a LOT of moving around during the fight. Why? The scenario ignored the traditional Trinity based aggro-table model by virtue of frequent repeating random aggro "swaps". In short, you couldn't "make" mobs stick to anyone. They decided on their own, frequently, who they wanted to bash.
The Trinity works because it's based on a predictable aggro table model. You'll see TAUNTS, aggro gain by DPS application or heal output. You manipulate encounters using those control sticks. Mobs heading for a healer? Throw a Taunt and watch them divert to the Tank like metal filings to a magnet. Throw a nuke at one and watch it divert to you so you can kite it back to the Tank. Need to PEEL a mob selectively? Again, manipulation of a "crude" aggro table mechanism.
The original Guild Wars doesn't follow this model. It's NOT new to GW2. The entire mob profile system in Guild Wars is basically . . . . Magister's Terrace. Makes you wonder if Blizz took a page from the Arenanet book when they designed Magisters, to see what would happen.
You have no taunts in GW. You can't always DPS a mob to you if you are in a group. When you pull a pack of mobs you'll see each mob negotiate to different targets, most often in my experience seemingly prioritized as follows:
1) Healers
2) Clothies (e.g. Mages/nukers)
3) Anyone else as a result of opportunity/proximity/level of health.
Your opener/puller might be the initial aggro target, but the moment the mobs get within range of the group you clearly see mobs heading for others based on a more complex aggro prioritization method.
In winning any engagement it's all about Fight Control. Bending the mobs or scenario to your will. Picking it apart and dismantling it.
In The Trinity Model that most often comes in the form of simple aggro table manipuation. Tank, taunt the mob(s) to you. DPS the Mobs to you. Move them to a desired position as a result, and keep them there for DPS to kill. Gain the boss;s attention so it won't hit others leaving a single target for healers to keep up. Gain the boss's attention so you can face it away from the group before it breathes fire or fires a cleave. Etc., etc.
This promoted teamwork by live players. People had to LET tanks start, gain, and maintain aggro dominance. DPS had to watch their aggro. Tanks had to know when to move a mob, if needed, how to build aggro most efficiently, be aware of when to face mobs as needed, how to pickup wayward mobs with shouts/taunts.
So how is it done "the new way", a way outside "The Trinity"?
Guild Wars was an eye opener, to me boding VERY WELL for what GW2 is going to be like. In GW you have no Trinity. No "tank", per se. No taunts. Mobs with very smart/unpredictable/wayward target selection based on more parameters than just DPS or an arbitrary Taunt. All that being said, HOW do you fight/control/manipulate your opponents during fights?
Different paradigm = different tools, tactics, and strats. But it works well in the original GW:
1) Placement and positioning is very important upon contact with packs
2) Crowd control. No longer a sidelined convenience, which it is all to often relegated to in the traditional Trinity Model, but a core set of tools required to manage mobs during the course of an engagement.
3) Smart coordination of focus fire and interrupts.
In either model, Trinity or "new/hybrid", you will have roles that need to be filled. You'll need healers. You'll need DPS. You'll need crowd control. You'll need interrupts, buffage, and debuffage. Of course.
It all is supposed to still be TEAM play.
But I've found it's the mechanisms of mob control and manipulation (pve) that are really so different, requiring a shift in training and understanding and execution.
Guild Wars in generall was basically one, big, Magister's Terrace in mob conduct.
You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way.
Tank- "OMG I am taking so much damage I can't mitigate enough to do this!"
Healer- "OMG I can't heal enough damage to keep you alive I'm sorry try dodge rolling or something."
DPS-"I can't do enough burst damage to bring someone down before they have time to fight back and they keep healing themselves while raping my health bar! Help!"
Going to be funny to watch.
The real good players/groups will probably kill you without taking 10% damage - they don't need no stinking healers/tanks.
You are severly missing my point...
The tank will be using his skill sets to mitigate damage, that doesn't mean he is going to be the ONLY person infront of a mob. He will be using his skills to perform the tanking role within the system defined by Anets game design. The healer will be doing the same..
How is this so difficult to understand? The roles will be fullfilled within the designs of the game, different mechanics doesn't mean they aren't fullfilling a trinity role..
Being locked into a role doesn't make a trinity.... Why don't you understand this. You even said it yourself that your role is the primary focus/reason for you being in a group. If I play a Healer / Support Engineer I AM FULLFILLING the Healer portion of the Trinity system!
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
How is this so difficult to understand? The roles will be fullfilled within the designs of the game, different mechanics doesn't mean they aren't fullfilling a trinity role..
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Take the blinders off, there is a lot of structure to combat in GW2 - it's just a different structure than you are used to.
Competitive PvP in GW2 is pretty much 100% about player skill as all gear/levels/stats are set equal automatically.
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
I would have agreed with you prior to playing Guild Wars.
After playing it, I don't feel the same. It's not more watered down, it's actually much more dynamic, complex, and challenging.
However, let me clarify the key component that makes my statement true:
What ARENANET did in Guildwars. Arenanet got it right.
It wouldn't take much for someone else to get it wrong and end up with exactly what you've described. Mostly, in my experience, this comes from miscalibration of numerous game-play dynamics resulting in a less than desireable result.
For all that I would have absolutely agreed with you a couple of months ago, having played games that generated what you describe, I've found the combat dynamics in Guild Wars (the orignal/Factions/Nightfall) shows it can be done correctly.
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Lol I like the idea of having Unique classes also the idea of having all classes be Useful in all situations just in differant ways.. Trinity did not provide this. You were useful for one aspect of the game and that was it Nothing more nothing less You were dps, you were tank, you were heals... If you tried to be something othere then that you were no longer useful. This is stupid this is sad.
Just like in a shooter a sniper can prodvie cover fire just as well as a machine gunner if not more deadly. If that is what the player is good at. The trinity limited your choices to 3.. You talk about skill there is no skill in being a tank, or a dps or a healer.. Because when you pick your class you know your job and what needs to be done.. Thats that and there is nothing more to it. Only when everything is Equal does player skill stand out becuase that is when player skill actually matters.
Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.
Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me
To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.
Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)
GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3, WOW you showed them!
I watched the PAX video and that's all he did. He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around. Then got too close and was killed..... There is skill in dodging but none in aiming. Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.
There are no rotations and you don't spam anything other than the "basic" attack really, so you may have watched but you certainly didn't understand.
Every single skill (except for basic attack) is situational and the person who blows all their skills up front is going to lose/die 99% of the time.
It's all about cooldown management and timing.
A huge part of the game also is choosing what skills you even have on your bar in the first place as you only get access to 10 at a time. That's it.
It's a system of opportunity cost. In order to have X you can't also have Y at the same time, etc.
So a lot of the skill is in build making before combat even starts.
Wanted to add in a few things since I tried both games.
I'll ask a question and I am not trying to say which is better.
If Tera didn't have animation locks, put the right clicking on the number one and the dodge or you know secondary skill onto the number two you'll have Guild Wars 2 combat. That's how similar they are.
GW 2 how ever if you use to the the non action combat you can Auto target and can only do so for your standard 1 skill.
You can also, have an auto cast, but you must click it in order to use it.
Tera and Guild Wars 2 are not that far off from each other, Guild Wars 2 just doesn't lock skills need that be a bad or good thing, that's up to you.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Take the blinders off, there is a lot of structure to combat in GW2 - it's just a different structure than you are used to.
Competitive PvP in GW2 is pretty much 100% about player skill as all gear/levels/stats are set equal automatically.
That type of PvP is exactly like a FPS game in which all the guns have the same stats, with just a different skin. Which will accomplish what you say which it really is all player skill, but the side effect of that is killing any real combat strategy.
to me player skills means alot, but without deep strategy involved, its all easy mode superficial fluff. FOr me I need both aspects player skill and strategy.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Whoa there. Take a deep breath and step outside of the box. Why does there need to be structure? By breaking out of the norm, new and better things are created, and thus innovation occurs. Don't knock it till you've tried it.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed: And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" ~Lord George Gordon Byron
Comments
Guild Wars 2 is not a Trinity game because Anet says it is not.
This is the reason for the discussion, I'm making points which suggest that the statement of " We don't have a trinity" is much to broad , as the typical trinity roles will be performed.
Taken directly from the Guild Wars 2 Website "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control,[...]"
There will still be someone performing the Healers role and someone mitigating damage. It doesn't matter if those roles are able to do more, it doesn't matter than more than one character can perform that role. THE ROLE IS STILL BEING PERFORMED.
I'll avoid being a dick, keep the dicussions civil or I simply won't respond to you any longer.
they still have a trinity i believe but it is different.
i believe its:
damage
control
augment
and everyone is partially responsible for all three of these.
I am going to laugh my butt off at this thread when I see a group of say 5 necromancers who all are built to spread around and use and transfer conditions/boons completely kick the crap out of the "everyone take a classic trinity role" group.
Or the group of all "defensive" builds kick the crap out of a "man we wish there was a trinity" group.
Guild Wars 2 does have a trinity, but with two main differences differences.
First one is that instead of tank-heal-DPS we have damage-support-control. While some classes have heavier armor than others, or more health, there's no class that will be able to continously get hit by a boss and survive, nor any class that will be able to keep it alive for too long. So basically there won't be any class devoted to tanking or healing, but people that do everything at some point, either damage (DPS), support (healing, providing protections and the like) and control (a bit like crowd control, like the guardian barriers or the ranger traps, to name a few).
The other one, and the biggest one IMHO, is that it isn't a "hard" trinity. I remember them saying somewhere that they wanted to really be a "bring the player, not the class" game, so while there is a trinity of sorts, every single class in the game can perform any of those roles, and will have to perform them at some point to really be effective. So there's no "oh, sorry, you're a mage and we need a tank here, you can't go". Also, if they achieve their goals as they've been stated, people won't say things like "oh, sorry, we need a healing specced elementalist for this one", and more "ok, for this fight when the boss does X we need you to attune yourself to water to help keeping us alive". They specifically said that it would be perfectly feasible to do a dungeon with, for example, 5 thieves.
And, at least to me, after watching several videos, doesn't seem they're too far off that goal. We'll see for ourselves when the game goes live (or, for those of us that pre-purchased, in the next beta..
)
What can men do against such reckless hate?
Spock this what I've been trying to convey the whole discussion ....
I don't care if you can play another way, I don't care that some groups won't run those types of groups. What I am saying is YOU CAN , thus there is in fact a Trinity present in Guild Wars 2. The only credible arguement against this is if these types of teams were at a significant disadvantage in competitive play and nothing leads me to believe the will be. The Guardians abilities to mitigate damage seem to be some of the strongest in the game currently, likewise so do the Engineers Healing / Support abilities.
If you have to change the definition of what the Trinity is THAT much in order for it to fit, then it is no longer the Trinity it is something else.
The amount it heals isnt enough for it to be considered a healer.
- The 'spamable' heal Water Blast does less than 1% of someones health, as does Cone of Cold and Water Trident.
- The geyser does like 5% health (less than 1 hit of damage from most mobs) and has a long cooldown (20 seconds).
- Healing rain applies regeneration which every single profession has access to, and does not stack except in duration. Very long cooldown to uptime (45 second cooldown, 9 second duration).
- Some of those skills you listed cannot be used at the same time due to being on seperate weapons. (Staff gives healing rain, geyser and water blast. Dagger gives cone of cold, Offhand dagger gives cleansing wave, Scepter gives water trident).
So at most you can have 3 skills that heal other people, and a few traits with splash healing. And none of these skills are particularly powerful at healing. So no, theres no healing role in the game and there is not a significant amount of heals to support a party member.
Support? Yep. Healing? No. 95% of incoming healing will be from your own self heal.
How is it changing the definition of what a Trinity is?
Trinity : Someone heals damage, Someone tanks damage, Someone deals damage.
Whats changed?
* Side-Note : Heading to work, thanks for the discussion this morning I've enjoyed it.
Early GW2 competitive PvP-
Tank- "OMG I am taking so much damage I can't mitigate enough to do this!"
Healer- "OMG I can't heal enough damage to keep you alive I'm sorry try dodge rolling or something."
DPS-"I can't do enough burst damage to bring someone down before they have time to fight back and they keep healing themselves while raping my health bar! Help!"
Going to be funny to watch.
The real good players/groups will probably kill you without taking 10% damage - they don't need no stinking healers/tanks.
I'm not sure I agree with the analysis assessment in regards to how "the old way" worked, versus "this new way".
I'm assuming they've basically carried forward (generally speaking) what they implemented in the original GW. Ex WoW players will recall when the Isle of Quel'Danis opened and players popped into Magister's Terrace . . . . and ran face first into the one female boss with a random spawn class mix of four attendants. That acted almost like live players with aggro shifts, REFUSING to "respect" the Rules of the Trinity".
Remember that, you ex-WoW players?
Ummm, yes indeed, Magister's Terrace in WoW required a LOT of moving around during the fight. Why? The scenario ignored the traditional Trinity based aggro-table model by virtue of frequent repeating random aggro "swaps". In short, you couldn't "make" mobs stick to anyone. They decided on their own, frequently, who they wanted to bash.
The Trinity works because it's based on a predictable aggro table model. You'll see TAUNTS, aggro gain by DPS application or heal output. You manipulate encounters using those control sticks. Mobs heading for a healer? Throw a Taunt and watch them divert to the Tank like metal filings to a magnet. Throw a nuke at one and watch it divert to you so you can kite it back to the Tank. Need to PEEL a mob selectively? Again, manipulation of a "crude" aggro table mechanism.
The original Guild Wars doesn't follow this model. It's NOT new to GW2. The entire mob profile system in Guild Wars is basically . . . . Magister's Terrace. Makes you wonder if Blizz took a page from the Arenanet book when they designed Magisters, to see what would happen.
You have no taunts in GW. You can't always DPS a mob to you if you are in a group. When you pull a pack of mobs you'll see each mob negotiate to different targets, most often in my experience seemingly prioritized as follows:
1) Healers
2) Clothies (e.g. Mages/nukers)
3) Anyone else as a result of opportunity/proximity/level of health.
Your opener/puller might be the initial aggro target, but the moment the mobs get within range of the group you clearly see mobs heading for others based on a more complex aggro prioritization method.
In winning any engagement it's all about Fight Control. Bending the mobs or scenario to your will. Picking it apart and dismantling it.
In The Trinity Model that most often comes in the form of simple aggro table manipuation. Tank, taunt the mob(s) to you. DPS the Mobs to you. Move them to a desired position as a result, and keep them there for DPS to kill. Gain the boss;s attention so it won't hit others leaving a single target for healers to keep up. Gain the boss's attention so you can face it away from the group before it breathes fire or fires a cleave. Etc., etc.
This promoted teamwork by live players. People had to LET tanks start, gain, and maintain aggro dominance. DPS had to watch their aggro. Tanks had to know when to move a mob, if needed, how to build aggro most efficiently, be aware of when to face mobs as needed, how to pickup wayward mobs with shouts/taunts.
So how is it done "the new way", a way outside "The Trinity"?
Guild Wars was an eye opener, to me boding VERY WELL for what GW2 is going to be like. In GW you have no Trinity. No "tank", per se. No taunts. Mobs with very smart/unpredictable/wayward target selection based on more parameters than just DPS or an arbitrary Taunt. All that being said, HOW do you fight/control/manipulate your opponents during fights?
Different paradigm = different tools, tactics, and strats. But it works well in the original GW:
1) Placement and positioning is very important upon contact with packs
2) Crowd control. No longer a sidelined convenience, which it is all to often relegated to in the traditional Trinity Model, but a core set of tools required to manage mobs during the course of an engagement.
3) Smart coordination of focus fire and interrupts.
In either model, Trinity or "new/hybrid", you will have roles that need to be filled. You'll need healers. You'll need DPS. You'll need crowd control. You'll need interrupts, buffage, and debuffage. Of course.
It all is supposed to still be TEAM play.
But I've found it's the mechanisms of mob control and manipulation (pve) that are really so different, requiring a shift in training and understanding and execution.
Guild Wars in generall was basically one, big, Magister's Terrace in mob conduct.
Fun stuff.
Wherever you go, there you are.
What has changed?
GW2: Everyone heals damage, everyone takes damage, everyone deals damage.
/thread
guild wars 2 still has a trinity but no one is locked into it
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/
You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way.
EQ2 fan sites
If you are not locked into one of those three, it is not a Trinity.
Trinity = dedicated roles.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.
Everyone will be switching between damage, support, and control second by second as the situation dynamically changes.
Sure, your skills/build may make you better at one or more of those three, but you will never be "stuck" only doing one or two of those three.
No role locking, no Trinity.
You are severly missing my point...
The tank will be using his skill sets to mitigate damage, that doesn't mean he is going to be the ONLY person infront of a mob. He will be using his skills to perform the tanking role within the system defined by Anets game design. The healer will be doing the same..
How is this so difficult to understand? The roles will be fullfilled within the designs of the game, different mechanics doesn't mean they aren't fullfilling a trinity role..
Being locked into a role doesn't make a trinity.... Why don't you understand this. You even said it yourself that your role is the primary focus/reason for you being in a group. If I play a Healer / Support Engineer I AM FULLFILLING the Healer portion of the Trinity system!
/sigh
Work ... *shakes fist*
you go have a guardian TANK a boss and see what happens
my bet is he will die in like 30sec after blowing his CDs
or the boss will go hit one of the other players.
no agro tables = no tanks
self heals are atleast 3x better than any heal a support can do
no direct heals = no healers
you adapt to the situation as needed
you have support/control/damage
your not gonna go into a fight with 1 support 1 control and 3 dmg
ppl will b switching on the fly depending on whats needs
if theres alot of dmg swap weapons and start buffing and small heals on group members
if boss needs to b slowed swtich to weapons that can cripple
you dont even need every role you dont NEED a support to do dungeons
the holy trinity is dead deal with it
Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out.
GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.
The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, yes it does!
That is the point you are missing.
Mechanics are EVERYTHING.
I agree with you
EQ2 fan sites
gw2 isnt watered down it's going to b pretty difficult by the looks of it
Take the blinders off, there is a lot of structure to combat in GW2 - it's just a different structure than you are used to.
Competitive PvP in GW2 is pretty much 100% about player skill as all gear/levels/stats are set equal automatically.
I would have agreed with you prior to playing Guild Wars.
After playing it, I don't feel the same. It's not more watered down, it's actually much more dynamic, complex, and challenging.
However, let me clarify the key component that makes my statement true:
What ARENANET did in Guildwars. Arenanet got it right.
It wouldn't take much for someone else to get it wrong and end up with exactly what you've described. Mostly, in my experience, this comes from miscalibration of numerous game-play dynamics resulting in a less than desireable result.
For all that I would have absolutely agreed with you a couple of months ago, having played games that generated what you describe, I've found the combat dynamics in Guild Wars (the orignal/Factions/Nightfall) shows it can be done correctly.
My opinion anyway.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Lol I like the idea of having Unique classes also the idea of having all classes be Useful in all situations just in differant ways.. Trinity did not provide this. You were useful for one aspect of the game and that was it Nothing more nothing less You were dps, you were tank, you were heals... If you tried to be something othere then that you were no longer useful. This is stupid this is sad.
Just like in a shooter a sniper can prodvie cover fire just as well as a machine gunner if not more deadly. If that is what the player is good at. The trinity limited your choices to 3.. You talk about skill there is no skill in being a tank, or a dps or a healer.. Because when you pick your class you know your job and what needs to be done.. Thats that and there is nothing more to it. Only when everything is Equal does player skill stand out becuase that is when player skill actually matters.
Wanted to add in a few things since I tried both games.
I'll ask a question and I am not trying to say which is better.
If Tera didn't have animation locks, put the right clicking on the number one and the dodge or you know secondary skill onto the number two you'll have Guild Wars 2 combat. That's how similar they are.
GW 2 how ever if you use to the the non action combat you can Auto target and can only do so for your standard 1 skill.
You can also, have an auto cast, but you must click it in order to use it.
Tera and Guild Wars 2 are not that far off from each other, Guild Wars 2 just doesn't lock skills need that be a bad or good thing, that's up to you.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
That type of PvP is exactly like a FPS game in which all the guns have the same stats, with just a different skin. Which will accomplish what you say which it really is all player skill, but the side effect of that is killing any real combat strategy.
to me player skills means alot, but without deep strategy involved, its all easy mode superficial fluff. FOr me I need both aspects player skill and strategy.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Whoa there. Take a deep breath and step outside of the box. Why does there need to be structure? By breaking out of the norm, new and better things are created, and thus innovation occurs. Don't knock it till you've tried it.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron