Crowd funding

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,172

    when gaming is treated as a 'service' which is a trend coming then release date doesn't really matter.

    At that point the word is meaningless

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  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABMember RarePosts: 2,582

    I only invest in projects after much investigation and research into the developers. Once vetted I may pledge a nominal amount that covers the price of the game and a perk or 2 that interests me (typically beta access).

     

    Only game I have pledged for is Camelot Unchained and so far the enjoyment alone of being even a small part of it's development is worth the money. Great small dev team with obvious talent making a game exactly fitting my background in gaming. I highly suggest others be equally diligent in their research and choose the correct fit. Always be aware you are investing in potential instead of a product.

    You stay sassy!

  • ElandrialElandrial atlanta, GAMember UncommonPosts: 163
    Originally posted by dubyahite
    Overall I like the idea, but I'm worried about whats going to happen.   I mean, so far we have yet to see any of the results from tI'his. What will happen if some company fails to deliver a product after getting all this money from fans?    I just feel like this some of these companies might be rushing into this after seeing the success with the Double Fine Kickstarter.  Are they all really prepared to make these games and not crap out on us halfway through the develpment?   I find it hard to believe that just because there is no publisher involved, the same problems that often kill a project can't happen to these companies. How many of them are going to be successful at this?   If a high perentage or all of them are successful and actually release the games, then it will be good. I just don't think this is a sustainable source of funding for these companies.   There is no return on investment for the people that are giving them this money. They may get some swag, a copy of the game, and their name in the credits, but how should they feel when one of these games is a mega-success? If you donate 100 dollars to a company, and they take in a million dollars overall from Kickstarter but go on to make 50 million dollars off the game, then what do the "investors" get?   It definitely takes away the risk from investment, but it also takes away the reward.  Most people probably don't care, they just want to have the game that they love remade. I have no problem with that, it's fine. But these companies are essentially going to be developing video games at no cost to themselves. No matter what they make it's all profit because the cost was shouldered by consumers.   And if the game fails to release or is terrible or takes ten years to come out, the people that get screwed are gamers.        Edit: I don't want to be entirely negative. Those are just my reservations. I think this is going to allow us to play games that would otherwise not be made and that is a good thing.  I am just worried that some companies won't hold up their end of the deal

    investment is risky ,but crowd funding is all risks and no rewards.they could of course create 'stocks' and you buy the 'stocks' thus own a part of the company.of course the problem with this is they will give themselves a bunch of stocks at no costs.thus dilluting the 'stocks' that people put money in.

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAMember Posts: 451
    There out to make money... you're there to give it to them... what else is there to know?
  • BentusiBentusi DrammenMember Posts: 10
    Originally posted by Lence
    Whats your opinion on crowd funding at the moment? It's nice to see old-school devs or people with brilliant ideas get funded directly by fans. no more money to publishers, taxes etc.. but 100% goes to developers. I'm pretty sure big publishers are afraid of this.

    FTL and Pillars of Eternity alone prove that crowd funding is the future. One fresh idea and one return to an old concept, abandoned for no particular reason by all the big companies, and people run to it like an oasis in the desert. Altogether I would say that there are at least 50 available genres and sub genres in computer gaming, and presently the major publishers are releasing games in five of them: 3DRPG, RTS, 4x, sports simulation and FPS. Anything that`s neither of these should have a decent chance of succeeding with crowd funding, and even more so as new audiences become familiar with abandoned genres.

     

         

  • deshall4deshall4 Seattle, WAMember Posts: 3
    Originally posted by Bentusi
    Originally posted by Lence
    Whats your opinion on crowd funding at the moment? It's nice to see old-school devs or people with brilliant ideas get funded directly by fans. no more money to publishers, taxes etc.. but 100% goes to developers. I'm pretty sure big publishers are afraid of this.

    FTL and Pillars of Eternity alone prove that crowd funding is the future. One fresh idea and one return to an old concept, abandoned for no particular reason by all the big companies, and people run to it like an oasis in the desert. Altogether I would say that there are at least 50 available genres and sub genres in computer gaming, and presently the major publishers are releasing games in five of them: 3DRPG, RTS, 4x, sports simulation and FPS. Anything that`s neither of these should have a decent chance of succeeding with crowd funding, and even more so as new audiences become familiar with abandoned genres.

     

         

    Crowdfunding may be the future. But do you get a refund if the game gets cancelled or closed? or the company goes away somewhere you dont know?

  • HeraseHerase LondonMember RarePosts: 877
    Originally posted by deshall4
    Originally posted by Bentusi
    Originally posted by Lence
    Whats your opinion on crowd funding at the moment? It's nice to see old-school devs or people with brilliant ideas get funded directly by fans. no more money to publishers, taxes etc.. but 100% goes to developers. I'm pretty sure big publishers are afraid of this.

    FTL and Pillars of Eternity alone prove that crowd funding is the future. One fresh idea and one return to an old concept, abandoned for no particular reason by all the big companies, and people run to it like an oasis in the desert. Altogether I would say that there are at least 50 available genres and sub genres in computer gaming, and presently the major publishers are releasing games in five of them: 3DRPG, RTS, 4x, sports simulation and FPS. Anything that`s neither of these should have a decent chance of succeeding with crowd funding, and even more so as new audiences become familiar with abandoned genres.

     

         

    Crowdfunding may be the future. But do you get a refund if the game gets cancelled or closed? or the company goes away somewhere you dont know?

    I doubt it, it like when you invest in stocks, could go wrong you lose out or go right, only difference is you don't gain money you get a nice game to play for a year or so. When investing it's your choice and you should know the risks, read up on the company, understanding their business plans and so on, unfortunately gamers don't seem to do that. I think this is why were seeing quite a rise in paid access, players don't ask vital questions they just pay now complain later, so if things go tits up players only have themselves to blame

  • lostincombatfindingslostincombatfindings thjlopMember Posts: 27
    You need to crowd fund Gustav Okpu and his Wife Britany Spears for life.We just got married ONLINE. Anyone say NAY. NO.Now fuck off.
  • NadiaNadia Topsham, MaineMember UncommonPosts: 11,866
  • TamoVamoTamoVamo PragueMember Posts: 24
    Originally posted by Nadia
    This is what a $55,000 Kickstarter potato salad party looks like http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/1/6880201/potato-stock-kickstarter-potato-salad-zack-danger-brown

    :D I remember this. Not bad at all, at least some people socialized and ate.

  • DetectiveChatDetectiveChat ParisMember Posts: 29

    Crowdfunding is definitely on the decline at the moment.

    You need only look at campaigns like the Black Glove and Human Resources. Admittedly, they were both incredibly ambitious but from trusted creators. 

    If anything, it'll likely dip and then level back out to just be another option for creators. I personally, can't wait for us to reach that point. We've seen too many scams and broken promises at this early stage as every person and their dog announces a campaign.

    Got milk?

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Originally posted by DetectiveChat
    Crowdfunding is definitely on the decline at the moment. You need only look at campaigns like the Black Glove and Human Resources. Admittedly, they were both incredibly ambitious but from trusted creators.  If anything, it'll likely dip and then level back out to just be another option for creators. I personally, can't wait for us to reach that point. We've seen too many scams and broken promises at this early stage as every person and their dog announces a campaign.

    Sorry, but you're going to have to give some info here. There have been a total of 13 games either cancelled or put on hiatus of over 300 that I've personally sampled. That hardly seems it's pandemic like you're talking about. You are right, though. People are becoming more cautious about what they invest in. It's not necessarily a bad thing, either. We should be asking developers to come to the table with more. I think back to the Project for "Shaker" with John Romero and Brenda Brathwaite. Like, honestly, who wouldn't want to see that game made? In the end, though, it didn't happen because there was no substance. I think that people are becoming more informed and more selective, which can only serve to improve the amount of content they bring into their Kickstarter. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • DetectiveChatDetectiveChat ParisMember Posts: 29

    Numerous campaigns have been cancelled, fallen short of target, returned for second campaigns and a few scams. 

    The biggest issue is how it's all moderated. Thankfully, Kickstarter is starting to change but people are still feeling burned. 

    I'm not saying it's a bad method, more just one that needs to change.

    Got milk?

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Originally posted by DetectiveChat
    Numerous campaigns have been cancelled, fallen short of target, returned for second campaigns and a few scams.  The biggest issue is how it's all moderated. Thankfully, Kickstarter is starting to change but people are still feeling burned.  I'm not saying it's a bad method, more just one that needs to change.

    What's your point? If campaigns are being cancelled or falling short or just simply failing to be funded, then that simply shows that people are becoming more educated. There is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6000 projects which have been created in the Video Games category. Of those, there are 1300 which were actually successfully funded. That's less than 25%. 

     

    If we were to extrapolate my 13 in 300 to 1200 then we're still talking about around 4% of projects. Of these projects, there are actually a large number which DO issue refunds. There are others which have been unsuccessful, but will work with other KS projects which are similar in nature, in order to provide their backers with something for their money. There has been litigation started against one project which was a scam...... but it wasn't a video game. In fact, I have heard of zero Kickstarter Video Game projects where there has been a class action lawsuit started. Again, if you find one, feel free to bring it up, I'm always looking to expand my knowledge on the subject. Just one. 

     

    So what is the percentage of scams? I'd say zero percent. There isn't anyone out there who has had a a video game project successfully funded with the intent of NOT delivering a final product. I'll make that assertion quite confidently because I have done my research. I've actually poured a tens of hours into this very argument because people simply rely on propaganda and Internet hate instead of going to Gemba for themselves and actually getting factual information. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DetectiveChatDetectiveChat ParisMember Posts: 29
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by DetectiveChat
    Numerous campaigns have been cancelled, fallen short of target, returned for second campaigns and a few scams.  The biggest issue is how it's all moderated. Thankfully, Kickstarter is starting to change but people are still feeling burned.  I'm not saying it's a bad method, more just one that needs to change.

    What's your point? If campaigns are being cancelled or falling short or just simply failing to be funded, then that simply shows that people are becoming more educated. There is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6000 projects which have been created in the Video Games category. Of those, there are 1300 which were actually successfully funded. That's less than 25%. 

     

    If we were to extrapolate my 13 in 300 to 1200 then we're still talking about around 4% of projects. Of these projects, there are actually a large number which DO issue refunds. There are others which have been unsuccessful, but will work with other KS projects which are similar in nature, in order to provide their backers with something for their money. There has been litigation started against one project which was a scam...... but it wasn't a video game. In fact, I have heard of zero Kickstarter Video Game projects where there has been a class action lawsuit started. Again, if you find one, feel free to bring it up, I'm always looking to expand my knowledge on the subject. Just one. 

     

    So what is the percentage of scams? I'd say zero percent. There isn't anyone out there who has had a a video game project successfully funded with the intent of NOT delivering a final product. I'll make that assertion quite confidently because I have done my research. I've actually poured a tens of hours into this very argument because people simply rely on propaganda and Internet hate instead of going to Gemba for themselves and actually getting factual information. 

    Crisis Heart Brawlers - It's been two years with minimal information and a broken partnership but they still haven't announced whether they'll be refunding or not.

    iControlpad 2 - Similar situation where the project was eventually cancelled but no one has been refunded yet.

    Moon Rift -  A smaller project, but people are out of pocket for varying amount regardless.

    And I was referring to crowdfunding in general, not just video games or Kickstarter specifically. While I'm sure many people intend to complete their projects, that doesn't give them a free pass. They're still taking someone's money for a product and not delivering.

    Just because there isn't a class action lawsuit doesn't mean it's not a scam either. Plenty of issues aren't taken to court for numerous reasons. 

    Got milk?

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Originally posted by DetectiveChat
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by DetectiveChat
    Numerous campaigns have been cancelled, fallen short of target, returned for second campaigns and a few scams.  The biggest issue is how it's all moderated. Thankfully, Kickstarter is starting to change but people are still feeling burned.  I'm not saying it's a bad method, more just one that needs to change.

    What's your point? If campaigns are being cancelled or falling short or just simply failing to be funded, then that simply shows that people are becoming more educated. There is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6000 projects which have been created in the Video Games category. Of those, there are 1300 which were actually successfully funded. That's less than 25%. 

     

    If we were to extrapolate my 13 in 300 to 1200 then we're still talking about around 4% of projects. Of these projects, there are actually a large number which DO issue refunds. There are others which have been unsuccessful, but will work with other KS projects which are similar in nature, in order to provide their backers with something for their money. There has been litigation started against one project which was a scam...... but it wasn't a video game. In fact, I have heard of zero Kickstarter Video Game projects where there has been a class action lawsuit started. Again, if you find one, feel free to bring it up, I'm always looking to expand my knowledge on the subject. Just one. 

     

    So what is the percentage of scams? I'd say zero percent. There isn't anyone out there who has had a a video game project successfully funded with the intent of NOT delivering a final product. I'll make that assertion quite confidently because I have done my research. I've actually poured a tens of hours into this very argument because people simply rely on propaganda and Internet hate instead of going to Gemba for themselves and actually getting factual information. 

    Crisis Heart Brawlers - It's been two years with minimal information and a broken partnership but they still haven't announced whether they'll be refunding or not.

    iControlpad 2 - Similar situation where the project was eventually cancelled but no one has been refunded yet.

    Moon Rift -  A smaller project, but people are out of pocket for varying amount regardless.

    And I was referring to crowdfunding in general, not just video games or Kickstarter specifically. While I'm sure many people intend to complete their projects, that doesn't give them a free pass. They're still taking someone's money for a product and not delivering.

    Just because there isn't a class action lawsuit doesn't mean it's not a scam either. Plenty of issues aren't taken to court for numerous reasons. 

    Thanks for the links. These are pretty crazy links. Actually, I haven't seen either of those game projects, so I don't think they were in my sampling at all. I went entirely off a 3rd party list of games, but I do want to look at all 1200 projects (at some point) because I'm sort of a data geek. I focus only on video games, myself. Hardware projects and physical projects are much more challenging, I agree. There are definitely some successes, things like Ouya (hasn't really become as successful as I would have thought), Oculus Rift, etc. They're definitely a different ball of wax, though. 

     

    I think that video games are more difficult because of unknowns, though. Games like Moon Rift scare the bejesus out of me. 6K in funding? Really? That being said, Chivalry was only looking for 50K, I believe, which is way under what it probably cost to develop. I think that many use it as a marketing platform, but games asking for so little actually end up killing themselves because they have probably burned through their KS funding before they even get a dollar in their pocket. 

     

    Oh, and I'm not saying the Crowdfunding doesn't have it's issues, either. I'd actually like to see a lawsuit or 10. Especially in video games. It really needs to have risk associated with it to prevent those projects coming in that end up tainting the crowdfunding model. 

     

    As for other crowdfunding sites, I don't do it. There are some out there now which allow the company to keep the money even if they don't hit their target? That just blows my mind. If I need 50K to make something, then why on Earth would I take $1000? That sort of thing scares me and I think THAT is a slippery slope. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinMember Posts: 2,735
    Originally posted by Lence
    Whats your opinion on crowd funding at the moment? It's nice to see old-school devs or people with brilliant ideas get funded directly by fans. no more money to publishers, taxes etc.. but 100% goes to developers. I'm pretty sure big publishers are afraid of this.

    It not really my business what others do with their money. Why do gamers feel the need to control what other gamers spend their money on?

  • DetectiveChatDetectiveChat ParisMember Posts: 29

    Hardware is much more difficult to anticipate because manufacturing is often an unknown field for start-ups.

    But in terms of games, a lot of people have very little understanding of how much development actually costs and crowdfunding made that worse initially. Hopefully now, people are seeing that even major companies have to secure greater budgets mid-project.

    The smaller projects are often one-person developers but they tend to not inspire confidence because of the low targets and it's often an issue when they overshoot that target.

    Sites like Indiegogo that allow for flexible funding are a very different issue though, it's odd to think a company can forecast a budget and take away even less than that. If anything, they should be increasing that estimate!

    Got milk?

  • FlankssFlankss dallas, TXMember Posts: 1

    Heres a new one a group of gamers are putting together...I hope they get funded because they have a big community from Stronghold Kingdoms. What do you guys think?

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176402693/empires-of-europe-0?ref+hero_thanks

  • FranciscourantFranciscourant qcMember UncommonPosts: 356
    Originally posted by Flankss
    Heres a new one a group of gamers are putting together...I hope they get funded because they have a big community from Stronghold Kingdoms. What do you guys think? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176402693/empires-of-europe-0?ref+hero_thanks

    I love their video on Kickstarter, showing the weapons and character models. Hope they get funded!

  • NightHaveNNightHaveN VirginiaMember UncommonPosts: 1,035

    Hasn't crowd funding gone too far?  I think yes.

     

    For example.  When you go to buy a car, you check information about the car, you go to a dealer and try the car before expending your money on it.  Similar things apply to TVs, home theaters,  game consoles, computer parts.  You look up about it, or if not, either try to use it personally or check it at the store, again before spending blindly money on it.

     

    Kickstarter and other crowd funding, they simply put some text, a couple of screenshots and then ask for lots of money.  And the insane part is that people is actually paying it.  For example today I looked at Crowfall campain, and they have:

    • 600 spent $150 - equals a year for practically any sub AAA game.
    • 517 spent $175
    • 600 spent $215
    • 861 spent $250
    • and keeps going from here

    For a game there is not a 100% guarantee that will be released, or released with the features the campaign was aiming at.  At the beginning the campaign was well planned, but looks like at the last week they starting adding random things just to keep money running.  

     

    How times have changed.  In the 80s people have access to betas for free,  and pay for a published game, either good or bad.  Later in this decade people started to pay for betas, and now people pay for development that doesn't guarantee anything at all...   What the developer is gonna do.. refund the money if goals cannot be actually implement or worse,  the studio goes bankrupt and closes?

     

  • lobotarulobotaru Naperville, ILMember UncommonPosts: 165

    I think crowd funding has great potential for mid-tier and lower tier titles. Now if we could just get major publishers to let go of those valuable low-end IPs like Megaman so we can actually do something with them, the world would be a better place.

    For MMORPGs, I think it is more difficult. We'd need a completely different approach to getting a game made. It'd almost be better for fans to make a kickstarter with a culmination of brilliant ideas in mind, build a war chest, and then buy the design team. The problem, as I see it, is that MMOs have become so stuck in its own cliches and traditions that no developer could start a successful campaign without the negative stigma. Fans, on the other hand, could maneuver around that stigma. How we would get a kickstarter of that kind started up is another thing entirely.

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKMember UncommonPosts: 2,166
    What I dislike about crowd-funding is those millionaire being there. I understand why, I would also prefer to do a project without risking a lot of my own money. I also find it wierd when a company is claiming to have been extreamly successful with there crow-founded game that they going to make a part two and there is a campaign up....either you previous game was not highly successful or again just people who want to start a project without the risk (once again completely understandable).

    However it is overall a good solution for a lot of indy developer of developers for a ninche market. 
  • MKerogazovMKerogazov New ZealandMember, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 8
    Crowd-funding is good for sequels and follow-ups when you have a solid fun-base for your original game and don't have enough funds to sustain you or your company to go on the next spiral. Also it would work well for some brilliant ideas, but those are rare :( I was thinking about it quite a bit (I'm an indie game developer), but it's sort of begging people to give you money with no return (except for early subscriptions and what-nots that worth nothing) and no warranties... Hmm... still not sure about that...
  • PurplePoloPlayerPurplePoloPlayer Denver, ColoradoMember UncommonPosts: 126
    I am quite hopeful that crowdfunding will be the future for the niche gamer.

    My favorite MMO's of all time are Dark Age of Camelot, EVE, and World of Tanks.  I've been looking for a home title ever since and I think it will be up to the crowdfunded games to fill the gap.  I'm currently backing Star Citizen, Camelot Unchained, and several other titles.  

    Along the way we will end up getting burned by some smaller developers who get in over their heads.   But, I think we're going to see some great titles evolve out of crowdfunding.  I think 2017 will be a good year for the MMO player.
    Check out my stream at www.twitch.tv/purplepoloplayer!
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