My guess is they decided to appeal to the majority of the market and have some sort of character progression in an RPG. People like character progression. They like character progression so much that they have added it to other genres, such as FPS.
Big budget games will always be created for the widest possible audience. If you don't happen to fit into that widest possible audience. It's unfortunate, but your dollar isn't worth more than 5 dollars from 5 other people that are part of the widest possible audience that would be alienated if things were they way you want them. That would be my guess at least and I would agree with that thought process from a business standpoint.
To sum it all up, more people like it this way.
I would understand this if upscaling hampered the present progression in Guild Wars 2.
It simply would've allowed players who wanted to the opportunity to play with a higher level friend at their level temporarily. You get no extra skills, traits, attributes, or gear so you have a lot of incentive to actually level up. There is no "skipping content" because the PvE is not designed in a linear fashion, that is, with so much downscaling and ways to level up outside of PvE, your incentive to go do dynamic events is not because they give you experience, but because they're enjoyable.
I don't think giving players the ability to scale to the level of a higher leveled friend would hamper the progression experience for other players, or at least, it wouldn't for me.
It doesn't matter if it wouldn't matter to you. It does matter that there are likely multiple people that it would matter to for every one of you. People like progression not just for progression's sake, but to be able to "compete" with other players in PvE. Levels are a form of progression that people know and are comfortable with. I am certain there are people out there that would not buy the game if levels were completely "meaningless". I get it that levels would still matter, but I don't think most people that are comfortable with the status quo in the MMORPG genre would. The people that discuss MMORPGs here are a very small percentage of participants in the genre as a whole.
On a personal note, I prefer having to "earn" or "unlock" content by leveling. I agree with the removal of sidekick up and do think that it would trivialize levels to some degree. If they are going to allow sidekicking up and down, they may as well just remove levels completely and have you unlock skills to progress your character.
And here I thought Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be challenging that status quo.
Edit: I don't believe Anet would want to harbor the competetive aspect of leveling. That's condusive to elitism and an inherent barrier to community building within the server. And that's another one of the large overarching game philosophies that the game is supposed to be molded by.
Fact of life: Money always wins in a corporate endeavor. If there is more money in stretching away from the status quo rather than outright breaking away from it, that's what will happen in a product delivered by a corporate entity. I like Anet as a game developer, but they are still out to make a buck.
Well, then this undermines the sanctitity of ArenaNet as a developer for going back on their own design philosophy in exchange for more money. In other words, selling out.
However, I'd much rather believe that there was some gamebreaking issue with the technical limitations of upscaling that caused it to be removed from the game. I don't like to think that ArenaNet would be so hasty to ruin the reputation they've built, even with game design pressure from NCSoft to maximize profit.
I gotta say I'm a bit amazed at the posts in this thread it wasn't even two weeks ago when a few of us were addressing concerns with the cash shop no matter what issue we had it. Could have been we were discussing the lock boxes or gems for gold. There was always atleast 5 posts in those threads where the poster would go... so what if they sell exp pots we can just sidekick up so there is not a clear advantage to leveling faster.
Now the sidekick up feature is gone and suddenly noone liked it to begin with?
We can dream it was about balance, but this is what alot of us have been saying about cash shop games when the cash shop is integrated from the ground up.
"How are the players reacting to the idea of exp potions?"
"well there saying they don't care cause they can just sidekick up"
"So then we can sell more exp pots if we remove the sidekicking up feature?"
I'm actually really glad they no longer plan on sidekicking up. That was on my list of cons, albeit a small one, for GW2. I find that levels start to feel utterly insignificant in MMOs that allow you to automatically match the levels of others in whatever zone they happen to be. I know GW2 isn't going to be the most progression driven MMO ever, but with the absence of other traditional progression mechanics (which, let's face it, is a major hook for a great many players), they would be mistaken to diminish the value of basic character levels as well.
I also love the feeling of zone progression in MMOs, new areas I can only venture to once I become strong enough.
That's how I thought it always functioned in the first place, just down not up for PVE. The PVE side is still largely about progression so it wouldn't make much sense bypassing the entire thing by doing lvl 80 zones as a lvl 2.
I understand many peoples disappointment, but as far as I know "sidekicking" is still in GW2. Instead of being scaled up (lvl 1 > lvl 45) to higher levels, you're scaled down (lvl 45 > lvl 8) to lower levels. This feature still allows for friends and groups alike to participate in personal stories, content and level progression: A positive especially for newer players - Being that most content is dynamic, hopefully higher - levels may not experience the same story / progression they did at first.
Many reasons come to mind and in this thread as to why scaling up may have been removed:
1. Possible abuse.
2. Waypoints being an issue.
3. Cash-shop items being obsolete (exp-items) because of scaling up. (Higher-profit)
4. By-passing content at lvl 2, just to see the higher level content.
5. Appealing to the majority of the population who dis-like up-scaling. (Higher-profit)
IMO, This direction is a reasonable one, in that it reduces the amount of "head-aches" it could have had in the future. I don't really see the issue here, cuz for one - friends are still able to play with each-other, be in PvP or PvE.
Not including up-scaling for PvE really doesn't impact or alter the gameplay / experience / progression negatively, it actually encourages and motivates people to explore and level-up in the world of GW2.
"When a player is defeated, and not just downed, a random piece of their armor will be damaged. When a piece of armor is damaged, it imparts no penalty but serves as a warning. If a player is defeated while all of their armor is damaged, then a random piece of armor will break. When armor breaks, it ceases to provide any benefit to the player and must be repaired by visiting an armor-repair NPC in town. This NPC will charge a small sum of coins to repair any broken pieces of armor, and will repair any damaged armor as well. Having thus transferred the coin cost to the armor-repair NPC, we removed the multiplier on the cost of traveling to a waypoint when defeated."
Once you take armor out of the equation, it totally negates this penalty since their stats are boosted to make up for the lack of level. The upscaling has then eliminated Anet's philosophy that
“When a player is defeated, it’s important for there to be some sort of penalty associated with the defeat.…”
My take is that i wasn't planning on using upscaling anyway, however once i thought about your post and about the things i have read, i felt Anet, after looking at how this feature worked in actual gameplay, decided that as opposed to negating the effect of death on armor, they decided to remove upscaling.
(all items i quoted were from the Beta Development Update By Eric Flannum February 21st, 2012)
Thanks for pointing out a possible technical inability for this system to work in practice, I hadn't thought about the death penalty and such. But I was pretty positive it was the stats on their gear and health that would be boosted to the appropriate level they were sidekicked to, so without there gear, they would be just like any other true player of that level who lost their gear.
Also, I don't believe that would be the huge reason for them not having upscaling in the game. I'd like to think that the abilities for friends to play together whenever they want is a far more important development philosophy though. It is an integral part of the way the game was desaigned, from instant teleportation to free server transfers.
Well, the only sure response i can make to that since i don't work for anet would be this, If i spent a long time making 79 levels worth of content, i would sure as heck want you to play through it instead of using a feature to skip it. However, thats just me and i like a good story. I suppose if when you upscaled you didn't get any xp that would eliminate the "skip," but without any answers from anet, we are forced to only wonder.
Yeah. You may be disappointed that players can level entirely in WvW without touching dynamic events or personal story though.
Yes, I know. And don't get me wrong, i plan to play WvWvW a hell of a lot. But I also intend to work my way through all the PvE has to offer. Well, i guess with GW2, like all games, it simply becomes a question of what can they do to make you not want to play the game? And if so then what becomes the all shattering deal breaker? For me, this is not it. But for those who love to play with friends but don't have as much time to play and would like to not have to drag their buddies down to all their low level whatevers, I can understand the fustration of this change.
I'm sorry but the only one saying anything about the second coming is you. Fans of a game accept its flaws and strengths.
Many reasons come to mind and in this thread as to why scaling up may have been removed:
1. Possible abuse.
2. Waypoints being an issue.
3. Cash-shop items being obsolete (exp-items) because of scaling up. (Higher-profit)
4. By-passing content at lvl 2, just to see the higher level content.
5. Appealing to the majority of the population who dis-like up-scaling. (Higher-profit)
IMO, This direction is a reasonable one, in that it reduces the amount of "head-aches" it could have had in the future. I don't really see the issue here, cuz for one - friends are still able to play with each-other, be in PvP or PvE.
Not including up-scaling for PvE really doesn't impact or alter the gameplay / experience / progression negatively, it actually encourages and motivates people to explore and level-up in the world of GW2.
I think all of the above are contributing factors TBH. This game has very few hard time-sinks. Most of the aspects of the game that take a long time to do / get to are optional, and they really want people to stop and enjoy the content at their own pace. Instead of powering through areas just to get to max lvl.
Up-lvling through PvE would counter that philosophy, not to mention introduce the above problems you mentioned. Personally I'm not sad to see it's gone. The down-scaling is great imho, as long as they keep that in I'll be happy.
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP (i.e progress driven gameplay) to be able to partake in further pve content like in any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP (i.e progress driven gameplay) to be able to partake in further pve content like in any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
LOL. It also blows a hole a little bit in the argument that the EXP boosters in the cash shop are completely meaningless. Just sayin...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP to be able to partake in further pve content like any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
Its not hard to applaud.
Side kicking up seemed wonky to me anyways. Not something I ever intended to do. But side kicking down yes, thats a must. I cant tell you how many times Ive played something like WoW, and I have a RL friend in game, but he's level 25 and Im 40. And in order for us to play together I have to go play where he is (which is still the same in this case) except its no challenge at all. Its the most boring thing imaginable.
The only solution then is to level an alt to 25. Oh but guess what. By the time I do that he's 35. CRAP. In WoW I never could play with any of my real friends unless I didnt mind being bored out of my mind for hours. And they were bored too because I was killing everything in 4 seconds. Thats no fun for them either.
Now in GW2 thats not a worry. I can go play with a lower leveled friend and have a blast. Scalling up though, that just presents a whole slew of issues and before now I just figured, "Well maybe Anet has it figured out somehow." But between the loot issues, the fact that younger players would be skipping whole swaths of good content, etc etc, Im not surprised they took it out, and most here are relieved they did. I am because I figured it was going to create some problems perhaps, and it obviously did, so they removed HALF of the sidekicking feature.
But scaling down works fine and thats as it should be. Shows Anet has sense. So? *Applause* Feel free to be amused.
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP (i.e progress driven gameplay) to be able to partake in further pve content like in any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
"Well screw you then Mister Frodo. I'm gonna go play Arch Age and level up cooking some potatoes."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP to be able to partake in further pve content like any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
Its not hard to applaud.
Side kicking up seemed wonky to me anyways. Not something I ever intended to do. But side kicking down yes, thats a must. I cant tell you how many times Ive played something like WoW, and I have a RL friend in game, but he's level 25 and Im 40. And in order for us to play together I have to go play where he is (which is still the same in this case) except its no challenge at all. Its the most boring thing imaginable.
The only solution then is to level an alt to 25. Oh but guess what. By the time I do that he's 35. CRAP. In WoW I never could play with any of my real friends unless I didnt mind being bored out of my mind for hours. And they were bored too because I was killing everything in 4 seconds. Thats no fun for them either.
Now in GW2 thats not a worry. I can go play with a lower leveled friend and have a blast. Scalling up though, that just presents a whole slew of issues and before now I just figured, "Well maybe Anet has it figured out somehow." But between the loot issues, the fact that younger players would be skipping whole swaths of good content, etc etc, Im not surprised they took it out, and most here are relieved they did. I am because I figured it was going to create some problems perhaps, and it obviously did, so they removed HALF of the sidekicking feature.
But scaling down works fine and thats as it should be. Shows Anet has sense. So? *Applause* Feel free to be amused.
Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP to be able to partake in further pve content like any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
Its not hard to applaud.
Side kicking up seemed wonky to me anyways. Not something I ever intended to do. But side kicking down yes, thats a must. I cant tell you how many times Ive played something like WoW, and I have a RL friend in game, but he's level 25 and Im 40. And in order for us to play together I have to go play where he is (which is still the same in this case) except its no challenge at all. Its the most boring thing imaginable.
The only solution then is to level an alt to 25. Oh but guess what. By the time I do that he's 35. CRAP. In WoW I never could play with any of my real friends unless I didnt mind being bored out of my mind for hours. And they were bored too because I was killing everything in 4 seconds. Thats no fun for them either.
Now in GW2 thats not a worry. I can go play with a lower leveled friend and have a blast. Scalling up though, that just presents a whole slew of issues and before now I just figured, "Well maybe Anet has it figured out somehow." But between the loot issues, the fact that younger players would be skipping whole swaths of good content, etc etc, Im not surprised they took it out, and most here are relieved they did. I am because I figured it was going to create some problems perhaps, and it obviously did, so they removed HALF of the sidekicking feature.
But scaling down works fine and thats as it should be. Shows Anet has sense. So? *Applause* Feel free to be amused.
Yeah, but what about The Mists? Surely those same arguments could apply to them.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
it doesn't matter what ANet says at this point. they can do no wrong. everyone is so engrossed in chasing the high that is GW2. it seems the same fans that agree with ANet to no end are the ones that bash other games for taking features out that have/had been talked about for any significant amount of time. Kudos to you ANet, you have brainwashed us all.
Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.
Right and I figure thats the way it should be. I dont want to go play with a higher level in a zone that really in reality should be too dangerous for me. What just because Im with a friend I get stronger or am somehow more able? No Im not. Im a stupid level 14 and I have no business being here.
Meanwhile I dont care how good at kung fu you are. A wild boar could certainly hurt me, and as for Mr. Kung Fu master over here....same deal. Oh he may be able to strike some pressure points on the dumb animal or flip out of the way, but until he takes the thing down he's still in mortal danger as much as I am. Thats the way GW2 works now, and Im all for it.
Yea those 80s will have a ton of skills and that will sure help them, but a threat is a threat. Whether Im Neo from the Matrix, or Steve Urkel, a guy running at me with a knife is still a guy running at me with a knife. If Im not paying attention, Im dead. Even in a level one zone.
All Im saying is I feel this change makes things as they should be. Or at least smooths things out.
My guess is they decided to appeal to the majority of the market and have some sort of character progression in an RPG. People like character progression. They like character progression so much that they have added it to other genres, such as FPS.
Big budget games will always be created for the widest possible audience. If you don't happen to fit into that widest possible audience. It's unfortunate, but your dollar isn't worth more than 5 dollars from 5 other people that are part of the widest possible audience that would be alienated if things were they way you want them. That would be my guess at least and I would agree with that thought process from a business standpoint.
To sum it all up, more people like it this way.
I would understand this if upscaling hampered the present progression in Guild Wars 2.
It simply would've allowed players who wanted to the opportunity to play with a higher level friend at their level temporarily. You get no extra skills, traits, attributes, or gear so you have a lot of incentive to actually level up. There is no "skipping content" because the PvE is not designed in a linear fashion, that is, with so much downscaling and ways to level up outside of PvE, your incentive to go do dynamic events is not because they give you experience, but because they're enjoyable.
I don't think giving players the ability to scale to the level of a higher leveled friend would hamper the progression experience for other players, or at least, it wouldn't for me.
It doesn't matter if it wouldn't matter to you. It does matter that there are likely multiple people that it would matter to for every one of you. People like progression not just for progression's sake, but to be able to "compete" with other players in PvE. Levels are a form of progression that people know and are comfortable with. I am certain there are people out there that would not buy the game if levels were completely "meaningless". I get it that levels would still matter, but I don't think most people that are comfortable with the status quo in the MMORPG genre would. The people that discuss MMORPGs here are a very small percentage of participants in the genre as a whole.
On a personal note, I prefer having to "earn" or "unlock" content by leveling. I agree with the removal of sidekick up and do think that it would trivialize levels to some degree. If they are going to allow sidekicking up and down, they may as well just remove levels completely and have you unlock skills to progress your character.
And here I thought Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be challenging that status quo.
Edit: I don't believe Anet would want to harbor the competetive aspect of leveling. That's condusive to elitism and an inherent barrier to community building within the server. And that's another one of the large overarching game philosophies that the game is supposed to be molded by.
Fact of life: Money always wins in a corporate endeavor. If there is more money in stretching away from the status quo rather than outright breaking away from it, that's what will happen in a product delivered by a corporate entity. I like Anet as a game developer, but they are still out to make a buck.
Well, then this undermines the sanctitity of ArenaNet as a developer for going back on their own design philosophy in exchange for more money. In other words, selling out.
However, I'd much rather believe that there was some gamebreaking issue with the technical limitations of upscaling that caused it to be removed from the game. I don't like to think that ArenaNet would be so hasty to ruin the reputation they've built, even with game design pressure from NCSoft to maximize profit.
Appealing to a wider audience is not exactly maximizing profit. They could be charging a sub fee and would probably get it. You have to remember that Anet basically went all in on GW2. Anet as a company lives or dies on the success or failure of GW2. I have a feeling they would like to get to a point where they can develop and release a new game without the entire company's future being determined by the success of that game.
Fact is, they made a game that they believe will be fun. I assume they are trying to make it fun for the largest number of people possible, as that would be the most intelligent business decision. A small element of progression that caps and eventually everyone is even does not seem like "selling out".
GW1 had progression. Not just in lvl 1 to 20, but in accumulating the proper skills, gearing with the proper runes and proper weapon sets. A fresh lvl 20 is not going to be doing "elite hard mode runs" because they would be a liability to the team. It looks like the progression track is a little different in GW2, which makes sense because the game itself if pretty different.
I'm not sure that I buy into your "mass appeal" argument. As far as I knew, there wasn't mass disapproval of the upscaling system. The item shop exp item excuse that I've heard is even further off. For one, the exp item is just one of the things in the cash shop, so they're not going to cut out a major game feature for that. Not to mention that I'm sure they knew about putting in exp items when the were implementing the upscaling.
Personally, I like the idea of more content becoming available as I get stronger; it gives pertinence to my level, and gives me something more tangible to aim for. I'm not necessarily against upscaling, but it wasn't really a big deal to me. The people that whine endlessly about it are the same ones that put GW2 up on a pedestal and would've inevitably been disappointed anyway.
I'm not sure why people are immediately assuming the worst about ArenaNet's motivations. I'm going give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for a more official response. If the answer they gave so far is their complete explanation, then I can see cause for derision, however I believe there is more to it than that. Regardless, it's not nearly a deal breaker for me, and if they happen to announce something that is, then I simply won't play it. Throwing half-assed accusations around doesn't do anyone any good.
Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.
Right and I figure thats the way it should be. I dont want to go play with a higher level in a zone that really in reality should be too dangerous for me. What just because Im with a friend I get stronger or am somehow more able? No Im not. Im a stupid level 14 and I have no business being here.
Meanwhile I dont care how good at kung fu you are. A wild boar could certainly hurt me, and as for Mr. Kung Fu master over here....same deal. Oh he may be able to strike some pressure points on the dumb animal or flip out of the way, but until he takes the thing down he's still in mortal danger as much as I am. Thats the way GW2 works now, and Im all for it.
Yea those 80s will have a ton of skills and that will sure help them, but a threat is a threat. Whether Im Neo from the Matrix, or Steve Urkel, a guy running at me with a knife is still a guy running at me with a knife. If Im not paying attention, Im dead. Even in a level one zone.
All Im saying is I feel this change makes things as they should be. Or at least smooths things out.
Sorry mate, I just don't agree. Literary / film example, by your logic Frodo and the rest of the hobbits would have had to spend most of the series fighting bats, rats, and baby goblins, rather than mixing it up with orcs, trolls and Nazguls.
Now of course an MMO is not a film nor a book, but I see no reason that lower level adventures, with the help of more experienced companions, would have any more issue fighting tougher mobs so long as they didn't get a disproportionateamount of xp and loot. And since players can do EXACTLY this in the Mists at level one, don't tell me A-net has no way to balance this out properly.
So f*cking what if some players will bypass some of the content, its their choice to do so. And I'd be willing to bet quite a few of the PVP oriented players will do exactly this in the Mists anyway.
I thought people were fired up about this game because it was trying to break some of the annoying, or at least stagnant, MMO sterotypes. Why then do you think the best way they can handle this situation is by forcing higher level players to "dumb down" so they can wade through the exact same content they have already completed, in order to adventure with a friend of disproportionate level? Wouldn't it be funner for all involved for the one guy who is low level to venture out and test his metal against some snow ogers rather than get all the big boys to put themselves at a disadvantage to come help him stomp some house cats?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I thought people were fired up about this game because it was trying to break some of the annoying, or at least stagnant, MMO sterotypes. Why then do you think the best way they can handle this situation is by forcing higher level players to "dumb down" so they can wade through the exact same content they have already completed, in order to adventure with a friend of disproportionate level? Wouldn't it be funner for all involved for the one guy who is low level to venture out and test his metal against some snow ogers rather than get all the big boys to put themselves at a disadvantage to come help him stomp some house cats?
Yeah, that is the very viewpoint the proponents of this system had.
I agree with you that I don't think technical limitations had to do with this decision. Because statboosting up is still a mechanic in WvW and the oposing viewpoint is very compelling as well: it makes for a more realistic and challenging world when there are threats and powers which you can not viably stand up to from the get go.
As there's no player threat in the main game world either, making all pve content too accesible and easy would destroy the last bit of challenge and excitement of that world in many players' perception, I think.
+ They embrace the good old progress driven gameplay concept, i.e. work and/or pay for advancement to get the most out of your character. A mechanic which still happens to be a cornerstone of any kind of rpg. Makes sense from a business perspective too (not just for subscription models).
Mainly those two reasons: leave some challenge in the world + give people compelling reasons to keep progressing and thus playing.
edit: It just isn't so very paradigm shifty anymore, innit?
But it's a good thing that people's expectations of the amount of "revolution" GW2 will offer is a bit tempered.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but one problem I can find with sidekicking people up, is the fact that a higher level person can just take a lower one with through all the skillchallenges in all of the areas. While this wouldn't be as powerful as a standard 'powerleveling' service, it would give incentive to skip content in favor of unlocking skills earlier. The sad thing about a lot of gamers is that when there is something to abuse/exploit, they will do it.
Hmm, our discussion makes me wonder about something else;
Will the sidekicking down be determined by the area level you are in, the event level or by the party level you're in? (I'm a bit confused because it's called "sidekicking" down, i.e. the word sidekick suggests a relation with other players).
If it is determined by being part of a lower leveled party it still allows for higher leveled people to drop group and go crazy as a level 80 super hero on lower level content and take away the challenge. I.e. There will still be easy mode "boosting" lowbies if this is the case. So I hope it's area or event and not group related. Anyone know?
Sidekicking down is zone bound, while sidekicking up would have involved being in a party with some higher level player. If you now enter a zone that is intended for lower level players, you get leveled down to the level of that zone, plus a few levels, so that the content isn't to *hard*. I believe this was mentioned in one of the Yogcast vid's.
Hmm, our discussion makes me wonder about something else;
Will the sidekicking down be determined by the area level you are in, the event level or by the party level you're in? (I'm a bit confused because it's called "sidekicking" down, i.e. the word sidekick suggests a relation with other players).
If it is determined by being part of a lower leveled party it still allows for higher leveled people to drop group and go crazy as a level 80 super hero on lower level content and take away the challenge. I.e. There will still be easy mode "boosting" lowbies if this is the case. So I hope it's area or event and not group related. Anyone know?
Haven't been able to find out exactly what the process will be.
MikkelB does bring up an interesting thought. Just how game changing will these unlockable abilites be and how will they function when a high level sidekicks down?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I like the idea of sidekicking down. Though sidekicking up was just something I was going to elect not to do. One of the best moments of my mmo life was when I made it from Bastok to Sandoria at level 5 in Final Fantasy XI. I like the idea of being in a dangerous place and discovering locations I am not suppose to be in yet.
I like the idea of sidekicking down. Though sidekicking up was just something I was going to elect not to do. One of the best moments of my mmo life was when I made it from Bastok to Sandoria at level 5 in Final Fantasy XI. I like the idea of being in a dangerous place and discovering locations I am not suppose to be in yet.
I can understand the excitment in such exploration. In the days if vanillia Wow I used to run level one toons to other race starting areas or enemy teritory just for the fun of doing so.
That said though I personally would have prefered a system where I could just jump in with my mates to fight the good fight, rather than forcing them to come wuss out to help me grind through the "kill ten rats" portion of the game they've already seen. Guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.
Right and I figure thats the way it should be. I dont want to go play with a higher level in a zone that really in reality should be too dangerous for me. What just because Im with a friend I get stronger or am somehow more able? No Im not. Im a stupid level 14 and I have no business being here.
Meanwhile I dont care how good at kung fu you are. A wild boar could certainly hurt me, and as for Mr. Kung Fu master over here....same deal. Oh he may be able to strike some pressure points on the dumb animal or flip out of the way, but until he takes the thing down he's still in mortal danger as much as I am. Thats the way GW2 works now, and Im all for it.
Yea those 80s will have a ton of skills and that will sure help them, but a threat is a threat. Whether Im Neo from the Matrix, or Steve Urkel, a guy running at me with a knife is still a guy running at me with a knife. If Im not paying attention, Im dead. Even in a level one zone.
All Im saying is I feel this change makes things as they should be. Or at least smooths things out.
Sorry mate, I just don't agree. Literary / film example, by your logic Frodo and the rest of the hobbits would have had to spend most of the series fighting bats, rats, and baby goblins, rather than mixing it up with orcs, trolls and Nazguls.
Now of course an MMO is not a film nor a book, but I see no reason that lower level adventures, with the help of more experienced companions, would have any more issue fighting tougher mobs so long as they didn't get a disproportionateamount of xp and loot. And since players can do EXACTLY this in the Mists at level one, don't tell me A-net has no way to balance this out properly.
So f*cking what if some players will bypass some of the content, its their choice to do so. And I'd be willing to bet quite a few of the PVP oriented players will do exactly this in the Mists anyway.
I thought people were fired up about this game because it was trying to break some of the annoying, or at least stagnant, MMO sterotypes. Why then do you think the best way they can handle this situation is by forcing higher level players to "dumb down" so they can wade through the exact same content they have already completed, in order to adventure with a friend of disproportionate level? Wouldn't it be funner for all involved for the one guy who is low level to venture out and test his metal against some snow ogers rather than get all the big boys to put themselves at a disadvantage to come help him stomp some house cats?
Well, if we're using LOTR, Frodo and his party were not "leveled" enough to be in the zone they were in, thus they snuck pass,. As a matter of fact a lot of Lord of the Rings involved them sneaking passed things. That's why I don't care for leveling up to the area. I love the feeling of being somewhere I was not suppose to be. AT no point did Frodo go head to head with an orc band in the 1st film. It would have been suicide.
When game designing, something may sound cool, but you have to look at why you did it in the first place. The point of sidekicking was to allow you to always be able to play with your friends. In order to enjoy a fine wine, you have to sip it, and kicking up could have encouraged drinking it like a 40 oz.
Haven't been able to find out exactly what the process will be.
MikkelB does bring up an interesting thought. Just how game changing will these unlockable abilites be and how will they function when a high level sidekicks down?
It's was just something that struck me. I don't think it will matter that much though, because of the way the skills work. You need to unlock everything anyway, it's just the order in which players will unlock their skills that will differ from others. Plus, you can only use three of them at once, so the benefits will be in the area of flexibility. However, if sidekicking up would be allowed and it would be easier to aquire these skill points, this would give them an advantage in The Mist I suppose.
Another (minor) advantage would be the aquirement of elite skills. From my understanding you can only use those at level 30, but in one of the Yogcast vid's (I believe the one of the Norn starting area) I saw that you could purchase one of the transformation elite skills from a karma vendor. Granted, it was expensive, but if there are more of those vendors that sell elite skills in high level area's, it could be exploited too. Though this is just speculation from my part
Comments
I gotta say I'm a bit amazed at the posts in this thread it wasn't even two weeks ago when a few of us were addressing concerns with the cash shop no matter what issue we had it. Could have been we were discussing the lock boxes or gems for gold. There was always atleast 5 posts in those threads where the poster would go... so what if they sell exp pots we can just sidekick up so there is not a clear advantage to leveling faster.
Now the sidekick up feature is gone and suddenly noone liked it to begin with?
We can dream it was about balance, but this is what alot of us have been saying about cash shop games when the cash shop is integrated from the ground up.
"How are the players reacting to the idea of exp potions?"
"well there saying they don't care cause they can just sidekick up"
"So then we can sell more exp pots if we remove the sidekicking up feature?"
I'm actually really glad they no longer plan on sidekicking up. That was on my list of cons, albeit a small one, for GW2. I find that levels start to feel utterly insignificant in MMOs that allow you to automatically match the levels of others in whatever zone they happen to be. I know GW2 isn't going to be the most progression driven MMO ever, but with the absence of other traditional progression mechanics (which, let's face it, is a major hook for a great many players), they would be mistaken to diminish the value of basic character levels as well.
I also love the feeling of zone progression in MMOs, new areas I can only venture to once I become strong enough.
That's how I thought it always functioned in the first place, just down not up for PVE. The PVE side is still largely about progression so it wouldn't make much sense bypassing the entire thing by doing lvl 80 zones as a lvl 2.
I understand many peoples disappointment, but as far as I know "sidekicking" is still in GW2. Instead of being scaled up (lvl 1 > lvl 45) to higher levels, you're scaled down (lvl 45 > lvl 8) to lower levels. This feature still allows for friends and groups alike to participate in personal stories, content and level progression: A positive especially for newer players - Being that most content is dynamic, hopefully higher - levels may not experience the same story / progression they did at first.
Many reasons come to mind and in this thread as to why scaling up may have been removed:
1. Possible abuse.
2. Waypoints being an issue.
3. Cash-shop items being obsolete (exp-items) because of scaling up. (Higher-profit)
4. By-passing content at lvl 2, just to see the higher level content.
5. Appealing to the majority of the population who dis-like up-scaling. (Higher-profit)
IMO, This direction is a reasonable one, in that it reduces the amount of "head-aches" it could have had in the future. I don't really see the issue here, cuz for one - friends are still able to play with each-other, be in PvP or PvE.
Not including up-scaling for PvE really doesn't impact or alter the gameplay / experience / progression negatively, it actually encourages and motivates people to explore and level-up in the world of GW2.
Yes, I know. And don't get me wrong, i plan to play WvWvW a hell of a lot. But I also intend to work my way through all the PvE has to offer. Well, i guess with GW2, like all games, it simply becomes a question of what can they do to make you not want to play the game? And if so then what becomes the all shattering deal breaker? For me, this is not it. But for those who love to play with friends but don't have as much time to play and would like to not have to drag their buddies down to all their low level whatevers, I can understand the fustration of this change.
I'm sorry but the only one saying anything about the second coming is you. Fans of a game accept its flaws and strengths.
I think all of the above are contributing factors TBH. This game has very few hard time-sinks. Most of the aspects of the game that take a long time to do / get to are optional, and they really want people to stop and enjoy the content at their own pace. Instead of powering through areas just to get to max lvl.
Up-lvling through PvE would counter that philosophy, not to mention introduce the above problems you mentioned. Personally I'm not sad to see it's gone. The down-scaling is great imho, as long as they keep that in I'll be happy.
This is a huge 180 on their "everyone can participate anywhere, instantly" philosophy that blows a big chunk out of the idea some people had about this game being such a paradigm shift. You'll still need to focus on leveling up and concern yourself with gaining XP (i.e progress driven gameplay) to be able to partake in further pve content like in any other mmorpg.
I don't mind their direction change though, as I was opposing sidekicking up from the very start but please allow me to be amused by so many of the fans suddenly applauding this.
My brand new bloggity blog.
LOL. It also blows a hole a little bit in the argument that the EXP boosters in the cash shop are completely meaningless. Just sayin...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Its not hard to applaud.
Side kicking up seemed wonky to me anyways. Not something I ever intended to do. But side kicking down yes, thats a must. I cant tell you how many times Ive played something like WoW, and I have a RL friend in game, but he's level 25 and Im 40. And in order for us to play together I have to go play where he is (which is still the same in this case) except its no challenge at all. Its the most boring thing imaginable.
The only solution then is to level an alt to 25. Oh but guess what. By the time I do that he's 35. CRAP. In WoW I never could play with any of my real friends unless I didnt mind being bored out of my mind for hours. And they were bored too because I was killing everything in 4 seconds. Thats no fun for them either.
Now in GW2 thats not a worry. I can go play with a lower leveled friend and have a blast. Scalling up though, that just presents a whole slew of issues and before now I just figured, "Well maybe Anet has it figured out somehow." But between the loot issues, the fact that younger players would be skipping whole swaths of good content, etc etc, Im not surprised they took it out, and most here are relieved they did. I am because I figured it was going to create some problems perhaps, and it obviously did, so they removed HALF of the sidekicking feature.
But scaling down works fine and thats as it should be. Shows Anet has sense. So? *Applause* Feel free to be amused.
"Well screw you then Mister Frodo. I'm gonna go play Arch Age and level up cooking some potatoes."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Yeah, side kicking down is very nice. You won't outgrow content and become a demi-god when you venture back to lower leveled areas to help others. Even though you'll still have access to more abilities and functionality so we'll have to see about how that will pan out. The same with the stat boosting to level 80 in WvW: the true 80's will probably have a lot more oomph due to many advantages other than gained through level stats. But anyway, that's not what they changed. It's the sidekicking up.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Yeah, but what about The Mists? Surely those same arguments could apply to them.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
it doesn't matter what ANet says at this point. they can do no wrong. everyone is so engrossed in chasing the high that is GW2. it seems the same fans that agree with ANet to no end are the ones that bash other games for taking features out that have/had been talked about for any significant amount of time. Kudos to you ANet, you have brainwashed us all.
I've got the straight edge.
Right and I figure thats the way it should be. I dont want to go play with a higher level in a zone that really in reality should be too dangerous for me. What just because Im with a friend I get stronger or am somehow more able? No Im not. Im a stupid level 14 and I have no business being here.
Meanwhile I dont care how good at kung fu you are. A wild boar could certainly hurt me, and as for Mr. Kung Fu master over here....same deal. Oh he may be able to strike some pressure points on the dumb animal or flip out of the way, but until he takes the thing down he's still in mortal danger as much as I am. Thats the way GW2 works now, and Im all for it.
Yea those 80s will have a ton of skills and that will sure help them, but a threat is a threat. Whether Im Neo from the Matrix, or Steve Urkel, a guy running at me with a knife is still a guy running at me with a knife. If Im not paying attention, Im dead. Even in a level one zone.
All Im saying is I feel this change makes things as they should be. Or at least smooths things out.
I'm not sure that I buy into your "mass appeal" argument. As far as I knew, there wasn't mass disapproval of the upscaling system. The item shop exp item excuse that I've heard is even further off. For one, the exp item is just one of the things in the cash shop, so they're not going to cut out a major game feature for that. Not to mention that I'm sure they knew about putting in exp items when the were implementing the upscaling.
Personally, I like the idea of more content becoming available as I get stronger; it gives pertinence to my level, and gives me something more tangible to aim for. I'm not necessarily against upscaling, but it wasn't really a big deal to me. The people that whine endlessly about it are the same ones that put GW2 up on a pedestal and would've inevitably been disappointed anyway.
I'm not sure why people are immediately assuming the worst about ArenaNet's motivations. I'm going give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for a more official response. If the answer they gave so far is their complete explanation, then I can see cause for derision, however I believe there is more to it than that. Regardless, it's not nearly a deal breaker for me, and if they happen to announce something that is, then I simply won't play it. Throwing half-assed accusations around doesn't do anyone any good.
Sorry mate, I just don't agree. Literary / film example, by your logic Frodo and the rest of the hobbits would have had to spend most of the series fighting bats, rats, and baby goblins, rather than mixing it up with orcs, trolls and Nazguls.
Now of course an MMO is not a film nor a book, but I see no reason that lower level adventures, with the help of more experienced companions, would have any more issue fighting tougher mobs so long as they didn't get a disproportionate amount of xp and loot. And since players can do EXACTLY this in the Mists at level one, don't tell me A-net has no way to balance this out properly.
So f*cking what if some players will bypass some of the content, its their choice to do so. And I'd be willing to bet quite a few of the PVP oriented players will do exactly this in the Mists anyway.
I thought people were fired up about this game because it was trying to break some of the annoying, or at least stagnant, MMO sterotypes. Why then do you think the best way they can handle this situation is by forcing higher level players to "dumb down" so they can wade through the exact same content they have already completed, in order to adventure with a friend of disproportionate level? Wouldn't it be funner for all involved for the one guy who is low level to venture out and test his metal against some snow ogers rather than get all the big boys to put themselves at a disadvantage to come help him stomp some house cats?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Yeah, that is the very viewpoint the proponents of this system had.
I agree with you that I don't think technical limitations had to do with this decision. Because statboosting up is still a mechanic in WvW and the oposing viewpoint is very compelling as well: it makes for a more realistic and challenging world when there are threats and powers which you can not viably stand up to from the get go.
As there's no player threat in the main game world either, making all pve content too accesible and easy would destroy the last bit of challenge and excitement of that world in many players' perception, I think.
+ They embrace the good old progress driven gameplay concept, i.e. work and/or pay for advancement to get the most out of your character. A mechanic which still happens to be a cornerstone of any kind of rpg. Makes sense from a business perspective too (not just for subscription models).
Mainly those two reasons: leave some challenge in the world + give people compelling reasons to keep progressing and thus playing.
edit: It just isn't so very paradigm shifty anymore, innit?
But it's a good thing that people's expectations of the amount of "revolution" GW2 will offer is a bit tempered.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but one problem I can find with sidekicking people up, is the fact that a higher level person can just take a lower one with through all the skillchallenges in all of the areas. While this wouldn't be as powerful as a standard 'powerleveling' service, it would give incentive to skip content in favor of unlocking skills earlier. The sad thing about a lot of gamers is that when there is something to abuse/exploit, they will do it.
Hmm, our discussion makes me wonder about something else;
Will the sidekicking down be determined by the area level you are in, the event level or by the party level you're in? (I'm a bit confused because it's called "sidekicking" down, i.e. the word sidekick suggests a relation with other players).
If it is determined by being part of a lower leveled party it still allows for higher leveled people to drop group and go crazy as a level 80 super hero on lower level content and take away the challenge. I.e. There will still be easy mode "boosting" lowbies if this is the case. So I hope it's area or event and not group related. Anyone know?
My brand new bloggity blog.
Sidekicking down is zone bound, while sidekicking up would have involved being in a party with some higher level player. If you now enter a zone that is intended for lower level players, you get leveled down to the level of that zone, plus a few levels, so that the content isn't to *hard*. I believe this was mentioned in one of the Yogcast vid's.
Haven't been able to find out exactly what the process will be.
MikkelB does bring up an interesting thought. Just how game changing will these unlockable abilites be and how will they function when a high level sidekicks down?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I like the idea of sidekicking down. Though sidekicking up was just something I was going to elect not to do. One of the best moments of my mmo life was when I made it from Bastok to Sandoria at level 5 in Final Fantasy XI. I like the idea of being in a dangerous place and discovering locations I am not suppose to be in yet.
I can understand the excitment in such exploration. In the days if vanillia Wow I used to run level one toons to other race starting areas or enemy teritory just for the fun of doing so.
That said though I personally would have prefered a system where I could just jump in with my mates to fight the good fight, rather than forcing them to come wuss out to help me grind through the "kill ten rats" portion of the game they've already seen. Guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Well, if we're using LOTR, Frodo and his party were not "leveled" enough to be in the zone they were in, thus they snuck pass,. As a matter of fact a lot of Lord of the Rings involved them sneaking passed things. That's why I don't care for leveling up to the area. I love the feeling of being somewhere I was not suppose to be. AT no point did Frodo go head to head with an orc band in the 1st film. It would have been suicide.
When game designing, something may sound cool, but you have to look at why you did it in the first place. The point of sidekicking was to allow you to always be able to play with your friends. In order to enjoy a fine wine, you have to sip it, and kicking up could have encouraged drinking it like a 40 oz.
It's was just something that struck me. I don't think it will matter that much though, because of the way the skills work. You need to unlock everything anyway, it's just the order in which players will unlock their skills that will differ from others. Plus, you can only use three of them at once, so the benefits will be in the area of flexibility. However, if sidekicking up would be allowed and it would be easier to aquire these skill points, this would give them an advantage in The Mist I suppose.
Another (minor) advantage would be the aquirement of elite skills. From my understanding you can only use those at level 30, but in one of the Yogcast vid's (I believe the one of the Norn starting area) I saw that you could purchase one of the transformation elite skills from a karma vendor. Granted, it was expensive, but if there are more of those vendors that sell elite skills in high level area's, it could be exploited too. Though this is just speculation from my part