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It's my turn to beat the horse again.

1235

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  • AnkurAnkur Member Posts: 334

    Originally posted by Moaky07

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Innovative implies new. Sandbox ideas have been tried (in fact, very early MMO like UO) and failed to become mainstream. Old ideas never become innovative again.

    You can argue sandbox ideas are different from the mainstream MMOs .. which is probably true.

    There are plenty of cases, even outside of entertainment, where retro ideas are modernized to become innovative. Take "The Artist" for instance. Despite being a throwback to silent films, it's truly a modern movie, with modern story telling flow and cinematography.

    However, you are right in the sense that these old ideas are always implemented in new ways. I agree that to be mainstream, sandbox games will need to grow out of their boxes.

    What nariusseldon doesn't get, however, is that doing the same boring thing (in this case, themeparks) over and over again doesn't move the genre forward either. The reason those retro trends come back is because they were good ideas that are not the same as the norm.

    More of the same thing gets boring. In the 70's Pong was hugely popular. More and more pong without any variation caused the gaming market to crash.

    In the mid 80's, Super Mario caused a "revolution" and suddenly 2D platformers became popular. More and more 2D platformers without any variation nearly caused the gaming market to crash again.

    Later it was 3D fighters.

    Later still, 3D Platformers.

    Later still, FPS'.

    Each type of game that becomes popular gets done to death before the industry moves on to the next flavor of the month. Several years ago it was the themepart MMO's time in the limelight. The market has now been saturated with the same old same old over and over, and many people are beginning to want something else.

    For all the die-hards crying "No! My type of games are here to stay!" You are deluding yourselves. Themeparks will inevitably get old. We're already seeing it begin to happen. They wont disappear completely, just like 3D fighters, 3D platformers, and FPS' haven't disappeared completely, but the focus will, and has already began, shifting to a new direction. Whether that direction is something new, or something that hasn't been tried in a long time is yet to be seen.

    You keep telling yourself that.

     

     

    How many yrs now have we heard "sandboxes are going to be popular any minute now" on this site? 

     

     

    As long as folks enjoy PVE gaming,  themeparks are going to have numbers. Seeing as PVE gaming has been around since I started playing video games, in the late 70s, I sure dont see it going away.

     

     

     

    7 years and counting. DF was supposed to be the saviour than MO and some other titles (mostly shut down) in between and now AA. Yeah i clearly see the focus changing in future.

  • IndolIndol Member Posts: 189

    This is not about Sandbox vs. Themepark. It's about moving forward with the genre. It's inevitable and I for one can't wait.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Indol

    This is not about Sandbox vs. Themepark. It's about moving forward with the genre. It's inevitable and I for one can't wait.

    Realistic "moving forward" is happening, as the genre splinters off into newer sub-genres where growth can happen.

    Unrealistic "moving forward" (as defined by "omg new MMORPGs lose players upon release) isn't happening, because the specific type of MMORPGs we see are an established genre and no longer in an early period of rapid growth.  The market is saturated.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • RefMinorRefMinor Member UncommonPosts: 3,452
    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by Neanderthal

    So....here we are in 2012, bored to death with the stale MMORPG market.  For some years now things have fallen into a fairly predictable cycle.  A new game is in development.  It gets hyped up and hyped up and hyped up.  People get all excited about it.  It releases and seems to be doing ok....then people get bored with it within a few months and the population starts to drop.  By the end of its' first year it has fallen to the status of yet another has-been game with a disappointing number of players still playing it.
    Do developers ever even try to figure out why this happens?  When they are alone in the quiet of the night, does ever a fleeting query drift through their consciousness?  Do they never ask, "Why?"
     ....Why.... 
    Maybe it would help to think first about why people get so excited about playing a game they have never tried.  What exactly is going on in peoples' minds when they are eagerly anticipating a new game?  Well, it's obvious right?  They are fantasizing about being in that alternate reality.
    Cards on the table guys, we all have our nerdy side or we wouldn't be here.   We have all daydreamed about being in a fantasy or Science Fiction reality.  But think about it; when you have those types of fantasies do you imagine yourself following a closed in and predetermined path or do you imagine yourself in a open world with all the freedom of the real world.  Do you fantasize about going off on adventures or do you fantasize about prefroming menial tasks for the local butchers, bakers and candlestick makers?
    The truth is that most people probably don't even try to define why they get excited about a game.  Most people probably would never stop to analyse their fantasies and compare that analysis with the design of a game.  People generaly just have these vague fantasies about entering the reality in which the game is based without bothering to try to pin everything down and label it.
    But see, here's the problem:  MMO games have been drifting further and further away from the shape of our fantasies when they should be trying to get closer.  Because...see...whether some people want to admit it or not, our dreams are sandboxes.  The next time you daydream about being in the Star Wars or Lord of the Rings universe just stop and think about it a little and ask yourself if your daydream resembles in any way the typical Themepark MMO.
    So...here we are in 2012, bored to death and just asking game developers to ponder this a bit.

    1. "Why" population drops after launch should be obvious.


    • Month #1 sales are the highest, purchased with players who think they might enjoy the game.

    • Not all of them do enjoy the game.

    • In fact no matter how amazing your game, the chances of keeping even 50% of your players playing a month later, and willing to pay more money to keep playing, are very low.

    • Month #2 sales aren't as high.  Meanwhile you've lost over half your month #1 sales.

    • Thus, population loss.

    This was true in every game you ever played (except in new market segments which were experiencing unusual growth; the current MMORPG market segment is not in such a state and will never experience that state again in its current form.)  But only recently did you realize it was happening in MMORPGs, so you've assumed that it's only modern games which are unappealing, when in fact early MMORPGs likely had considerably worse metrics.

    2. I think you're the first sandbox player who didn't want to be a shit-covered peasant.  Most sandbox player posts criticize adventure and heroics, saying that because not everyone is a hero in real life the game should represent everyone as some crappy non-heroic laborer.

    But yes, overall players tend to choose the games that don't make them shit-covered peasants.

    And those games tend to be themeparks.

    3. If MMORPGs drifted further and further from what players want, the genre would've stagnated and shrunk.  Instead the only strong criticism which could be applied to the genre is that it'd be really damn helpful if someone besides Blizzard knew how to put together fantastic core gameplay.  None of the post-WOW MMORPGs have managed to fully capture that magic (although RIFT and TOR came close.)   And what the genre really needs is someone to surpass that level of fun.

     

    I think 2 is more about not wanting everyone to be The One.
  • //\//\oo//\//\oo Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,767

    I disagree completely. The RPer has always been a minority. I think that it's due to the gameplay itself and the diminishing utility of it.

    Guildwars 2 is considered innovative, yet, in all honesty, it's pretty much the same beast with minor modifications. I will still be buying it, but it's definitely not the revolution the genre needed.

    If anything, it will force upcoming MMOs to pull out every card instead of carbon copy WoW and expect a good return (I'm looking at you, SWToR and Rift). 

     

     

     

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • VaultarVaultar Member Posts: 339

    I hate seeing threads like these when games like GW2 are right around the corner. Can you guys start whining and complaining about the genre getting stale at least AFTER GW2, Archeage and TSW are released?

    If these games won't satisfy you, then ur simply burnt out with the genre in general.

     

     

    Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985

    Originally posted by Vaultar

    I hate seeing threads like these when games like GW2 are right around the corner. Can you guys start whining and complaining about the genre getting stale at least AFTER GW2, Archeage and TSW are released?

    If these games won't satisfy you, then ur simply burnt out with the genre in general.

    Naw, man. Many of us are beyond tired of playing what is essentially the same game since 2004. Personally, I love this genre, but it has been in a sad state of stagnation for a dangerous amount of time. Blame the insane success of the king, or blame the current crop of clueless mmo developers - a field that unfortunately no longer attracts the artistic and creative minds that it once did. Take your pick.

    I hope the titles you mention bring the fresh air that this industry so desperately needs, but as time goes on, and all we see is more of the same, the future of this genre looks less and less bright.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap Member Posts: 600

    Originally posted by Vaultar

    I hate seeing threads like these when games like GW2 are right around the corner. Can you guys start whining and complaining about the genre getting stale at least AFTER GW2, Archeage and TSW are released?

    If these games won't satisfy you, then ur simply burnt out with the genre in general.

    My thoughts too.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    The problem is the genre is aimed at those without dreams.

    Why is this a problem?

    The goal of games is to entertain. I don't find MMOs particularly lacking in that department.

    Imagine people had been raised on the films of the Coen Brothers, Scorcese, Hitchcock or Kurosawa and then suddenly the only film you were allowed to watch was Transformers.

    Pro Tip:

    People are never, ever, ever going to respond well to the "elitist defense."

    "So, what do you think of the new Ford F150?"

    "Well, it certainly isn't a Jaguar or Mercedes but for the common man to drive to a sporting event to drink Budweiser with their blue-collar friends, I suppose it's adequet."

    *punches face*

    It's not a matter of being elitist.  He's simply comparing quality.  Not everyone is satified with mediocrity.

    And mediocrity is subjective, as is quality, there's nothing universal in it to compare. You're elitist if you think your subjective likes are superior to anothers.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • //\//\oo//\//\oo Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,767

    Originally posted by Distopia

     

    And mediocrity is subjective, as is quality, there's nothing universal in it to compare. You're elitist if you think your subjective likes are superior to anothers.

     

       It depends on whether you objectively define it, or not.

       If you give strict definitions e.g. a game having <= N quests is mediocre, then the criterion for your definition is satisfied objectively.

     

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • VaultarVaultar Member Posts: 339

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Vaultar

    I hate seeing threads like these when games like GW2 are right around the corner. Can you guys start whining and complaining about the genre getting stale at least AFTER GW2, Archeage and TSW are released?

    If these games won't satisfy you, then ur simply burnt out with the genre in general.

    Naw, man. Many of us are beyond tired of playing what is essentially the same game since 2004. Personally, I love this genre, but it has been in a sad state of stagnation for a dangerous amount of time. Blame the insane success of the king, or blame the current crop of clueless mmo developers - a field that unfortunately no longer attracts the artistic and creative minds that it once did. Take your pick.

    I hope the titles you mention bring the fresh air that this industry so desperately needs, but as time goes on, and all we see is more of the same, the future of this genre looks less and less bright.

    All three games mentioned bring their own freshness to the mmorpg genre. I don't even need to mention how they do so just because a bit of googling can tell you far more than I can here. it appears you are just assuming they will be all the same as old crap that has been released these past 8 years and are completely uninformed about these mmos.

    Go do a bit of research and watch the gameplay vids on what the games are offering. Hopefully you will see that these mmorpgs really do try to shake things in this currently stale genre (save for SW:TOR but which is again, debatable due to preferences).

    Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    1. "Why" population drops after launch should be obvious.


    • Month #1 sales are the highest, purchased with players who think they might enjoy the game.

    • Not all of them do enjoy the game.

    • In fact no matter how amazing your game, the chances of keeping even 50% of your players playing a month later, and willing to pay more money to keep playing, are very low.

    • Month #2 sales aren't as high.  Meanwhile you've lost over half your month #1 sales.

    • Thus, population loss.

    This was true in every game you ever played (except in new market segments which were experiencing unusual growth; the current MMORPG market segment is not in such a state and will never experience that state again in its current form.)  But only recently did you realize it was happening in MMORPGs, so you've assumed that it's only modern games which are unappealing, when in fact early MMORPGs likely had considerably worse metrics.

     

    The overhype of modern games is ofcourse a fair point.

    However i dont really agree with comparing mmos to other games in this respect, mmos have subscriptions and population, not just sales, it would be like comparing a cell network operator with a publishing company.

    The mindset, that a mmo is like any other game (buy->play->finish->forget) is one thing that i think is damaging in the long run, atleast in the sense what i and probably the OP expects the mmos to be.

    Ultimately, a service is a success if it grows, even if the grow is miniscule, i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market, Aion still had a time of growth (and it was crappy by its own standards), and even if modern mmos would drop from 1m users to 200k after launch, i would expect them to have a growth period after the population stabilizes to be able to call them a success.

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Member Posts: 222

    A couple comments to an interesting discussion.

    Development and pre launch hype: Why do players get so excited about a game in development? The same reason people get excited about a wrapped christmas present. The mystery and potential and less about the present for once it is opened it is known and quantified. It can still be enjoyed and appreciated but its lessened. When an mmo is announcened and information of overall ideas released (without details) people start coming up with their perfect idea of a game and think "Yes finally a game that is going to have what I always wanted!" When details come out about what reality those who agreed with it are vindicated that their perfect game is coming. For those that had a different idea they have been betrayed!

    Boredom with a game after a few months: Think back to your first MMO. Is it your favorite? I think for most people it is because it was their "first love". We had no idea what an MMO might be so whatever is presented to us is awesome. Lots to do with your friends with 24-7 playtime? Great! Then as we start seeing what else is out there with games we start realizing what we like and dont like. A new game comes out and it has to meet our list of 25 demands or its garbage.

     

     

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by corpusc

    Originally posted by jpnz

    I always ask 'if these people really want 'sandboxes' why aren't the current sandboxes doing well?' 

    Sadly, I never receive an answer. :(

     

    But hey, just keep telling yourself that 'sandboxes' are the majority.

    I'll just look at the past 7 years of market that proves you wrong.

     

    it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with FFA full loot PVP could it?  hmmmmmmmm!

     

    you know i've seen that answer many many times on this forum.

     

    being a sandbox and being FFA PVP are not intrinsically tied to each other. 

    but if you're gonna be so short-sighted as to use the past 7 years of limited thinking as proof of anything, i guess you might be so limited as to think that current examples are proof that......... that is all that will ever exist.

    Since this reply was derailed a few pages ago, I'll answer it.

    If FFA Full Loot PVP is the issue then why isn't "A Tale in the desert" popular?

    It isn't that hard to know what is popular and what isn't in the MMO space as it has largely been unchanged the past 7 years.

     

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by corpusc


    Originally posted by jpnz

    I always ask 'if these people really want 'sandboxes' why aren't the current sandboxes doing well?' 

    Sadly, I never receive an answer. :(

     

    But hey, just keep telling yourself that 'sandboxes' are the majority.

    I'll just look at the past 7 years of market that proves you wrong.

     

    it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with FFA full loot PVP could it?  hmmmmmmmm!

     

    you know i've seen that answer many many times on this forum.

     

    being a sandbox and being FFA PVP are not intrinsically tied to each other. 

    but if you're gonna be so short-sighted as to use the past 7 years of limited thinking as proof of anything, i guess you might be so limited as to think that current examples are proof that......... that is all that will ever exist.

    Since this reply was derailed a few pages ago, I'll answer it.

    If FFA Full Loot PVP is the issue then why isn't "A Tale in the desert" popular?

    It isn't that hard to know what is popular and what isn't in the MMO space as it has largely been unchanged the past 7 years.

     



    Because A Tale in the Desert has no PvX of any kind. No PvP, no PvE. I love ATITD but a 0 PvX game is never gonna be popular.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     



    Because A Tale in the Desert has no PvX of any kind. No PvP, no PvE. I love ATITD but a 0 PvX game is never gonna be popular.

    Making excuses why game 'XYZ' is not popular doesn't really address the discussion though.

    The discussion is that MMOs are moving in the 'wrong' direction.

    To who though? For the vast majority of people that plays MMOs, it certainly is moving in the right direction as more people are playing MMOs than ever before. 

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Shakes420Shakes420 Member Posts: 23

    Originally posted by Banaghran

     

     i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market 

     

     

    Im just spit-balling here, but could one of the reasons "themepark" styled MMO's get all the attention is their ease of conversion into a F2P model.

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985

    Originally posted by Vaultar

    All three games mentioned bring their own freshness to the mmorpg genre. I don't even need to mention how they do so just because a bit of googling can tell you far more than I can here. it appears you are just assuming they will be all the same as old crap that has been released these past 8 years and are completely uninformed about these mmos.

    Go do a bit of research and watch the gameplay vids on what the games are offering. Hopefully you will see that these mmorpgs really do try to shake things in this currently stale genre (save for SW:TOR but which is again, debatable due to preferences).

    I am well aware of these games, but this is far from my first rodeo. While I do have hope (especially for Archeage), I'm at the point now where I'll believe it after I've played it.  

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • EnoshEnosh Member Posts: 140

    Originally posted by Indol

    To anyone somehow arguing against the creation of innovative or sandbox games: why? all you're doing is saying "you shouldn't have as much fun as me." As ludicrous as that sounds, it's what regularly goes on around here.

    Themepark players have a near endless pool of games to choose from.

     Sandbox/'Something New' players have a fraction of the games to choose from and even those are mostly very buggy or under-supported.

     A better balance looks like it may be coming in the next couple of years finally which is the good news.

     The bad news is: people still feel the need to speak out against other people's interests for absolutely no reason other than to be a jerk. It doesn't hurt anyone to have more options.

    ell, then maybe sandbox fans should go and support a sandbox game instead of whining on the forums why themepark game x isn't a sandbox [mod edit]

  • EmwynEmwyn Member Posts: 546

    Originally posted by Shakes420

    Originally posted by Banaghran

     

     i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market 

     

     

    Im just spit-balling here, but could one of the reasons "themepark" styled MMO's get all the attention is their ease of conversion into a F2P model.

    whoah that's a scary thought but maybe true.

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Member Posts: 1,036

    Originally posted by Moaky07

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Innovative implies new. Sandbox ideas have been tried (in fact, very early MMO like UO) and failed to become mainstream. Old ideas never become innovative again.

    You can argue sandbox ideas are different from the mainstream MMOs .. which is probably true.

    There are plenty of cases, even outside of entertainment, where retro ideas are modernized to become innovative. Take "The Artist" for instance. Despite being a throwback to silent films, it's truly a modern movie, with modern story telling flow and cinematography.

    However, you are right in the sense that these old ideas are always implemented in new ways. I agree that to be mainstream, sandbox games will need to grow out of their boxes.

    What nariusseldon doesn't get, however, is that doing the same boring thing (in this case, themeparks) over and over again doesn't move the genre forward either. The reason those retro trends come back is because they were good ideas that are not the same as the norm.

    More of the same thing gets boring. In the 70's Pong was hugely popular. More and more pong without any variation caused the gaming market to crash.

    In the mid 80's, Super Mario caused a "revolution" and suddenly 2D platformers became popular. More and more 2D platformers without any variation nearly caused the gaming market to crash again.

    Later it was 3D fighters.

    Later still, 3D Platformers.

    Later still, FPS'.

    Each type of game that becomes popular gets done to death before the industry moves on to the next flavor of the month. Several years ago it was the themepart MMO's time in the limelight. The market has now been saturated with the same old same old over and over, and many people are beginning to want something else.

    For all the die-hards crying "No! My type of games are here to stay!" You are deluding yourselves. Themeparks will inevitably get old. We're already seeing it begin to happen. They wont disappear completely, just like 3D fighters, 3D platformers, and FPS' haven't disappeared completely, but the focus will, and has already began, shifting to a new direction. Whether that direction is something new, or something that hasn't been tried in a long time is yet to be seen.

    You keep telling yourself that.

     

     

    How many yrs now have we heard "sandboxes are going to be popular any minute now" on this site? 

     

     

    As long as folks enjoy PVE gaming,  themeparks are going to have numbers. Seeing as PVE gaming has been around since I started playing video games, in the late 70s, I sure dont see it going away.

    1) Not once in my post did I mention the word "sandbox". Please don't read things that aren't there.

    2) Sandbox =/= PvP. A sandbox only implies that the player is not coralled from one zone to the next like cattle. There CAN be PvE sandboxes, or even hybrids of sandbox and themeparks. Sandparks, they're commonly called.

    3) I love PvE. Don't be so quick to make assumtions about people. Or rather, I should say I love PvE done well. See, like everything, PvE can be done well, or it can be done poorly. Now whats well or poor is totally a matter of opinion, but when PvE hasn't changed in 8 years, it does become stagnant.

  • DecoyTrooperDecoyTrooper Member Posts: 239

    GW2 has playable hairy-chested humans and will beat The Secret World by a long shot. SWTOR failed hard. MoP panda's will make Chuck cry as we get closer to the end of the world. Pac-Man is still fun. Can you believe that?

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Member Posts: 1,036

    Originally posted by DecoyTrooper

    GW2 has playable hairy-chested humans and will beat The Secret World by a long shot. SWTOR failed hard. MoP panda's will make Chuck cry as we get closer to the end of the world. Pac-Man is still fun. Can you believe that?

    Some children mouth off to their parents. Green Tea is a flavor of ice cream. If a cat dies once it apparently loses all 9 lives at the same time. Real life doesn't have a reset button. A cookie is just a cookie but Newtons are fruit and cake. Not sure where this is going, please elaborate.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    The overhype of modern games is ofcourse a fair point.

    However i dont really agree with comparing mmos to other games in this respect, mmos have subscriptions and population, not just sales, it would be like comparing a cell network operator with a publishing company.

    The mindset, that a mmo is like any other game (buy->play->finish->forget) is one thing that i think is damaging in the long run, atleast in the sense what i and probably the OP expects the mmos to be.

    Ultimately, a service is a success if it grows, even if the grow is miniscule, i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market, Aion still had a time of growth (and it was crappy by its own standards), and even if modern mmos would drop from 1m users to 200k after launch, i would expect them to have a growth period after the population stabilizes to be able to call them a success.

    Well across all MMORPGs, the service has grown, and is probably still growing.

    Like cellphone companies, the market is saturated.  There just aren't many people left with interest in the product who don't have it yet.  It's possible cell revenue is still growing quickly, but customer count growth has undoubtedly slowed.

    Unlike cellphone companies, the market is immensely fragmented.  Customers are spread across a hundred different MMORPGs.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    The overhype of modern games is ofcourse a fair point.

    However i dont really agree with comparing mmos to other games in this respect, mmos have subscriptions and population, not just sales, it would be like comparing a cell network operator with a publishing company.

    The mindset, that a mmo is like any other game (buy->play->finish->forget) is one thing that i think is damaging in the long run, atleast in the sense what i and probably the OP expects the mmos to be.

    Ultimately, a service is a success if it grows, even if the grow is miniscule, i am wary of accepting that over the course of 2009 something fundamental has changed in the mmo market, Aion still had a time of growth (and it was crappy by its own standards), and even if modern mmos would drop from 1m users to 200k after launch, i would expect them to have a growth period after the population stabilizes to be able to call them a success.

    Well across all MMORPGs, the service has grown, and is probably still growing.

    Like cellphone companies, the market is saturated.  There just aren't many people left with interest in the product who don't have it yet.  It's possible cell revenue is still growing quickly, but customer count growth has undoubtedly slowed.

    Unlike cellphone companies, the market is immensely fragmented.  Customers are spread across a hundred different MMORPGs.

    Well, and how about, say, 2001-2010, was the market not saturated and fragmented by your standards? The market was not saturated and fragmented for Aion and in a broader online games sense for Minecraft.

    To me it sounds like a cop out, like managers of a 6 season tv show arguing that the ratings went down because the show is old, not because half of the writing staff was fired last year and the main actor is on drugs and it shows...

    Or as usual, saying that wow went from popular to old in a time of few months around the launch of wotlk :)

    Flame on!

    :)

     

     

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