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What is your definition of Pay2Win?

evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game.  Basically, it's armor, or weapons (or anything else) that are overpowered compared to what you can find in the game itself, especially if those things can be used against other players.

 

Areas in the game that are necessary for progression but are locked unless you pay for them are also (by definition) Pay2Win.

 

I would even go so far as to say that it could be gear that allows you to, say get through a 5 man dungeon by yourself, if you can't also get that gear in game.   Or if it's extremely difficult to get that gear in the game.

 

There has been a lot of talk lately about Pay2Win Cash Shops in games, but I believe most of that talk is hyperbole and/or misinformed.  What do you think?

 

 

 

Edit:  Added the comment about areas in the game.

image

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

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Comments

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    It's both broad and narrow at the same time: 

    Anything that allows another player, through payment of cash, to have a detrimental affect on my gaming experience, is P2W. 

    It doesn't even require competition.  Of course, it makes it easier that I don't give a damn what other players are doing most of the time and if they are leveling faster than me or have shinier kit.  THAT does NOT adversely affect my enjoyment.  However, I know for many, that it does.  Maybe I'm just not the jealous type.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Pay to win, to me, is required purchases from a cash shop needed to either progress through content (locked otherwise) or to compete in PvP. If you can buy a sword for example that practically ensures you'll beat someone that didn't, that's pay to win. If the advanced areas of the game are completely locked off to you unless you cough up the cash, that's pay to win.

     

    Necessary advantages.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Being P2W or not is a gray area. Someone may perceive something as P2W when others may think its not. Therefore I go case by case. Making a strict definition would be entirely subjective and/or completely useless.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

    No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

    Once upon a time....

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

    No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

    So if you buy a pretty dress for your caster and I don't buy one for my burly warrior dude, you win? Personally your definition feels quite a bit too loose. Character slots for altoholics certainly aren't pay to win, but by your definition they seem to be.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • bleyzwunbleyzwun West Orange, NJPosts: 1,100Member Common

    P2W for me is anything that gives the player more power through money.  I don't consider exp boosts to be p2w, since most pvp happens at end game.  

    For me it's more like someone buying a whole set of gear in a few minutes,  that would otherwise take another person a long time to get.  

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Pay to win, to me, is required purchases from a cash shop needed to either progress through content (locked otherwise) or to compete in PvP. If you can buy a sword for example that practically ensures you'll beat someone that didn't, that's pay to win. If the advanced areas of the game are completely locked off to you unless you cough up the cash, that's pay to win.

     

    Necessary advantages.

    That's pretty much the way I look at it too.  I should have included the locked areas of a game that are necessary progression in my OP because I agree that would be Pay2Win also.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    Easy enough if they have Crit pot, full heal pots, haste pots all only from the CS it iwll be P2W. If they don't have these types of items we probably don't need to worry much.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

    No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

    This is what I meant about a definition being useless. WIth this definition, nearly all (if not all) would be classified as P2W. If you want to nitpick Eve Online, Guild Wars 1, World of Tanks, League of Legends... all of these would be put in the same basket with Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online etc. - games with serious cash shop advantage.

    There is a degree how severely the cash shop affects games.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by Dragonantis

    Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

    I'm assuming you mean things like XP boosts.  Does that include if those boosts are also found in game?

    And, why?  What does it matter to you if I advance to level 50 faster than you?

    Does having the abilitly to play a game for 8 hours a day versus someone who plays for 4 hours a day also constitute an unfair advantage?  I would say that someone who can play for 8 hours a day has the ability to advance character wealth and ability far beyond the "normal" player.  "Normal" being defined as someone who typically can devote less than, say, 4 hours per day to a game.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

    No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

    I think you should stop using money alltogether, since spending money on enything is pay to win from your perspective, maybe eggs or apples are a better currency for you.

    If a Cash Shop is P2W or not doesn't simply rely on the items in the shop but also on their context in the game. An item can be P2W in one game but  not so in another. An Exp boost in a game where levelling is important and higher levels have a vast advantage is P2W, but in a game where levelling is flat and your level is more or less meaning less it isn't P2W. 

    It's all about context, yet only a very small group understands this.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    P2W is kind of an "after the fact" thing
    If after a period of time, if I have been consistently using the cash shop, if I am better off than you for it, then it's pay to win.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Aside from the obvious 'anything with stats'...

    Anything that offers players a way to expediate, procure, or otherwise bypass content beyond regular gameplay.

    Anything that is not purely cosmetic, with the exception 'vanity' items that look like very difficult to obtain rewards available through normal gameplay.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

    No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

    So if you buy a pretty dress for your caster and I don't buy one for my burly warrior dude, you win? Personally your definition feels quite a bit too loose. Character slots for altoholics certainly aren't pay to win, but by your definition they seem to be.

    Exactly. What do you have in that scenario that I don't have. On the other hand, I have the dress that you can't have. Maybe you don't want that dress, but I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other guys playing MMOs that would.

    And I can sell that dress for game gold to them, and turn around and buy that uber gear that you can't afford yet.

    And even if the game won't let me sell it, Ima dancin' in a pretty dress and you ain't.

    Once upon a time....

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    Originally posted by Dragonantis

    Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

    I'm assuming you mean things like XP boosts.  Does that include if those boosts are also found in game?

    And, why?  What does it matter to you if I advance to level 50 faster than you?

    Does having the abilitly to play a game for 8 hours a day versus someone who plays for 4 hours a day also constitute an unfair advantage?  I would say that someone who can play for 8 hours a day has the ability to advance character wealth and ability far beyond the "normal" player.  "Normal" being defined as someone who typically can devote less than, say, 4 hours per day to a game.

    Nope I said nothing about levels, what I meant was people having the means through a cash shop and money to directly advance the power of thier characters far beyond a normal player, playing normally at their own pace.

    Its understandable that many people dont have the time to devote to these types of games, but when they introduce systems like this, the main ones that actually exploit it are people who can actually play for long extended periods, people with not much time to devote to a game dont pay as much as those that do.

    Thus the reason why people have a problem with cash shops in the first place and the Pay-2-Win model.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game. 

     

    How can you not add " convenience items " to P2W?   There isn't a single game out there where more advanced toon does not mean they have an advantage over you.

    Call me crazy, but I don't know of a single P2W game that offers their Cash shop items in game.   On the rare occasion that they do there are extra stipulations, available in unsufficient quantites, or are a limited time event only.  Normally they are there to " break the purchase barrier " by giving the player a taste of " convenience " that they offer.

  • MeltdownMeltdown Home, NHPosts: 1,184Member Uncommon

    To me, pay2win means one of two things.

     

    1, There is no possible way to obtain the same item (or result of said item) without paying money. Note this only applies to non-cosmetic items.

    2. There is a severe balance issue between the amount of time spent in-game to obtain the same results of $10 from the cash shop. Meaning if it takes you 6 hours of playtime to obtain something that costs $10 in the cash shop, that is probably reasonable. But if it takes you 100 hours of playtime to obtain something that costs $10 in the cash shop, then there is a severe balance issue and the developers are forcing you to buy.

     

    #1 Is a clear advantage, I have "sword of killing you +5" and you can't get it without paying. 

    #2 is a bit fuzzier and essentially means that either you can spend money on the game to get an advantage or say goodbye to your friends, family, wife, job etc. just to get some minor item that costs barely anything. 

    "They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Pay to Win is any game you have to continue to pay for after you buy it. Anything else is symantics based on whatever doesnt make the individual look bad so he can stroke his epeen.

    Yeah, I said it. Deal.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • troublmakertroublmaker St. George''s, NFPosts: 337Member

    I'll bite the bullet.

    Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.

    Race changing in World of Warcraft is a Pay2Win exchange because it allows you to trade out a weak race for a stronger one.  The argument here is if the person race changing did not invest the extra money they'd be playing worse.

    The most common Pay2Win cash shop component is not gear, it is power ups.  A lot of times in Pay2Win model of free to play games they will give you a pretty crippled character.  You can purchase power ups to make it into a normal character like any other game.

    Another Pay2Win model is class unlocks.  For free you can play the crappy classes.  For a subscription or a purchase you can play better characters.  This is the model League of Legends uses in which it gives you some free characters but will offer all of the powerful ones for money.  In this model there is no attempt to balance classes.

    The final kind of pay to win is when you are getting gear kits or gear enhancers that will make your current gear better.

    Some things can act as a Play2Win model in some games but not others.  Mounts are generally an aesthetic purchase.  However if the mount has health or makes you go faster than the free mounts or is available sooner to people who pay, it is Pay2Win.  For example having a Level 20 mount in Age of Conan's hardcore server will allow you to run away from fights and chase down and camp people easier.

    Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube:

  • MeltdownMeltdown Home, NHPosts: 1,184Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by troublmaker

    I'll bite the bullet.

    Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.

    Race changing in World of Warcraft is a Pay2Win exchange because it allows you to trade out a weak race for a stronger one.  The argument here is if the person race changing did not invest the extra money they'd be playing worse.

    The most common Pay2Win cash shop component is not gear, it is power ups.  A lot of times in Pay2Win model of free to play games they will give you a pretty crippled character.  You can purchase power ups to make it into a normal character like any other game.

    Another Pay2Win model is class unlocks.  For free you can play the crappy classes.  For a subscription or a purchase you can play better characters.  This is the model League of Legends uses in which it gives you some free characters but will offer all of the powerful ones for money.  In this model there is no attempt to balance classes.

    The final kind of pay to win is when you are getting gear kits or gear enhancers that will make your current gear better.

    Some things can act as a Play2Win model in some games but not others.  Mounts are generally an aesthetic purchase.  However if the mount has health or makes you go faster than the free mounts or is available sooner to people who pay, it is Pay2Win.  For example having a Level 20 mount in Age of Conan's hardcore server will allow you to run away from fights and chase down and camp people easier.

    While I agree with you about the race change in WoW (never really thought about that) I would disagree about class unlocks  in a few examples including the one you mentioned (LoL).

     

    Anyone who plays League of Legends competitively plays a lot. And every new champion that LoL comes out with is purchasable via IP (which you earn through normal play). Although anyone who plays LoL competitively will tell you that such an assumption that the new champs are "better" is absolutely absurd.

     

    Another example I would site for class unlocks would be EQ which just went F2P with cash shop, the free classes are Warrior/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue. I don't know about anyone else, but Warrior/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue are CORE group components of that game, and Cleric is probably one of the "most powerful" classes in the game.

     

    I'm sure there are examples of class unlocks which are completely unbalanced, but mentioning LoL makes me... lol. Everything else I agree with you.

    "They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Being P2W or not is a gray area. Someone may perceive something as P2W when others may think its not. Therefore I go case by case. Making a strict definition would be entirely subjective and/or completely useless.

     

    And going case by case is entirely subjective and because of that, essentially useless.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by thinktank001

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game. 

     

    How can you not add " convenience items " to P2W?   There isn't a single game out there where more advanced toon does not mean they have an advantage over you.

    Call me crazy, but I don't know of a single P2W game that offers their Cash shop items in game.   On the rare occasion that they do there are extra stipulations, available in unsufficient quantites, or are a limited time event only.  Normally they are there to " break the purchase barrier " by giving the player a taste of " convenience " that they offer.

     

    Imagine there was a cap to character advancement.  Even a cap that wasn't difficult for the "average" player to obtain.  Would it still be P2W if convenience items allowed someone to hit this cap more quickly?  Even if it cuts the time in half, the player that gets to that cap more quickly is at the same spot as the player that gets there slower once they are both at the cap.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Originally posted by killion81

    Originally posted by thinktank001


    Originally posted by evolver1972

    My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game. 

     

    How can you not add " convenience items " to P2W?   There isn't a single game out there where more advanced toon does not mean they have an advantage over you.

    Call me crazy, but I don't know of a single P2W game that offers their Cash shop items in game.   On the rare occasion that they do there are extra stipulations, available in unsufficient quantites, or are a limited time event only.  Normally they are there to " break the purchase barrier " by giving the player a taste of " convenience " that they offer.

     

    Imagine there was a cap to character advancement.  Even a cap that wasn't difficult for the "average" player to obtain.  Would it still be P2W if convenience items allowed someone to hit this cap more quickly?  Even if it cuts the time in half, the player that gets to that cap more quickly is at the same spot as the player that gets there slower once they are both at the cap.

    Yes.

    A short-term advantage is still an advantage.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Yes.

    A short-term advantage is still an advantage.

    I said the same thing about Realm buffs. The idea that a company would reward part of their playerbase a buff was moronic and it was always done in a way that the more powerful side even MORE powerful.

    It became a, hey if we have the most no life having players on our side we will completely DESTORY the other side because we will be better equiped and have a higher chance of getting the buff!

    Guess what? It didnt break the game. People on all sides still had a ton of fun. one side got to stroke their epeen more often and pretend their real lives have meaning...and the game world continued.

    The fact that so many people are pissed at the CHANCE that someone may be able to buy an item they themselves are willing to put 10000000 hours into getting are just showing that they want a game that will only reward them so they can act important.

    Its about time a major player does not care about time = reward. and goes back to FUN = REWARD.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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