"Pay 2 win" really needs to be defined. The way many people use the term, payed expansion packs would fall under the purview of "P2W."
With WoW, for instance, if you don't buy the latest expansion pack, you can't reach max level, acquire any of the new/upgraded skills/talents, or use any of the new, more powerful items that require you reach the new max level to use, and can only be found in the new dungeons that you can't access, or created with tradeskills that you can't get to a high enough level.
I.e., those who pay money to buy the expansion packs have access to higher levels (which means higher stats), more powerfull abilities, and more powerful weapons, armor, potions, etc., than a non-paying player. Ergo, p2w.
Of course, most people would consider this to be absurd, but if "spending real money in order to recieve any sort of non-cosmetic item that confers any sort of advantage over a non-paying player" is how we are to define P2W, then it logically follows.
Expansion packs are for the most part different games. In your WoW example, those who did not buy the expansion pack would not be allowed on the new continent at all. And they would also not meet those other players in the same instanced battlegrounds (they were alwasy tiered by level and those of higher level would be in different battlegrounds).
If you are referring to those who buy the expansion pack, then go back to the lower level open world zones and prey on the lower level players, well, do you consider that fair? No. In those lower level zones the person who paid for the expansion pack did pay2win over the players that didn't.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
I'm aware of the fact, that some of the top tier players are making money from games, however now it has moved into the category of a job. And there's nothing wrong to have a job that's closly related to what you would call a hobby, most athletes have it this way - hell, I have it this way.
I don't think you are right about bribes - you simply can't draw a parallel between the CS and bribes. You have bought a product and they offer a complimentary product with the first product. However if it was a third party distributer service, which was banned from the game, then you might be able to draw the parallel - since you now got an unfair advantage.
Furthermore we are done to discussing the very perception of business and life, which is a derail. I will refer you to the OP, who states that it progression should come from time and effort. My argument is, that some people don't have the time to play as much as other people does, since they are working alot. They invest their time and effort to earn money, which they can choose to buy products from - products that in NO way will harm others, except letting them catch up.
Now do really think, there is ANY comparison between this and bribes?
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
Well, I must say I love your mathematical expression about it. Can I upvote this?
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
If what you are saying is true, that you can buy stuff - that in some way will aid a person in getting an advantage over a equally skilled person and geared for that matter, then we are talking about some completly different from the OP - and here I totally agree, this is PAY TO WIN, as long its not obtainable without the use of real currency.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
I'm aware of the fact, that some of the top tier players are making money from games, however now it has moved into the category of a job. And there's nothing wrong to have a job that's closly related to what you would call a hobby, most athletes have it this way - hell, I have it this way.
I don't think you are right about bribes - you simply can't draw a parallel between the CS and bribes. You have bought a product and they offer a complimentary product with the first product. However if it was a third party distributer service, which was banned from the game, then you might be able to draw the parallel - since you now got an unfair advantage.
Furthermore we are done to discussing the very perception of business and life, which is a derail. I will refer you to the OP, who states that it progression should come from time and effort. My argument is, that some people don't have the time to play as much as other people does, since they are working alot. They invest their time and effort to earn money, which they can choose to buy products from - products that in NO way will harm others, except letting them catch up.
Now do really think, there is ANY comparison between this and bribes?
So if I worked a lot and my hobby was gambling in Vegas, the pit boss should let me buy to win a hand? I'm confused on why people keep coorelating their work and a game. If you work you don't have the time to play...thats part of life, point blank. Maybe I'm just old fasioned.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Which is quite appropriate, as I was doing some navel gazing earlier when looking in the GW2 microtransaction shop. And I want to buy a world-megaphone - so that I may be the first to say something witty about Chuck Norris to the entire server.
Now, let's make a rhyme with the word "orange." OP - you start.
I think they took out the megaphones from the cash shop
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
I'm aware of the fact, that some of the top tier players are making money from games, however now it has moved into the category of a job. And there's nothing wrong to have a job that's closly related to what you would call a hobby, most athletes have it this way - hell, I have it this way.
I don't think you are right about bribes - you simply can't draw a parallel between the CS and bribes. You have bought a product and they offer a complimentary product with the first product. However if it was a third party distributer service, which was banned from the game, then you might be able to draw the parallel - since you now got an unfair advantage.
Furthermore we are done to discussing the very perception of business and life, which is a derail. I will refer you to the OP, who states that it progression should come from time and effort. My argument is, that some people don't have the time to play as much as other people does, since they are working alot. They invest their time and effort to earn money, which they can choose to buy products from - products that in NO way will harm others, except letting them catch up.
Now do really think, there is ANY comparison between this and bribes?
Believe me, I understand your point of view. But I'm just relating the viewpoint of those who actually view gaming as having some fundamental principles, especially when it is a situation where one's actions affect others. When you "buy" yourself to a more advanced state via a cash shop in a game with competition (GW2 has PVP for example) you essentially have purchased your way over somebody else. You have impacted other people. Just like the bribery example impacts his coworkers. The guy bribing can pretend "whats the harm" but the harm is he got ahead of other people who "deserved" it more.
In multiplayer games, there are many rules we instinctively know we must all follow (you can even derive morals the same way you do in real life). I think most agree getting ahead by cheating is wrong in a multiplayer game right? I hope you feel that way, but maybe you don't. There are people that constantly seek out glitches and exploits for example, and I do not respect getting ahead that way either. I view getting ahead by paying real money is very similar to exploiting a glitch.
In other MMOs I was aware of glitches, but I personally never used them. It just felt wrong. As do cash shops that offer the same advantages in my opinion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
Gems can be used to get gold which you can use to buy influence which you can buy guildbuffs with that affect WvW Pvp, that's one example. Karma buff helps you get good gear faster which helps in WvW PvP etc.
I understand and respect your opinion that it doesn't affect the game much altho I don't agree.
Do you feel that the cash shop improves the game in any way? Would the game be worse without it?
For me the game would be better without the cash shop or with a cash shop with only cosmetic items since no in-game advantages, no matter how small, could be gained by using cash.
Im not sure, but I was under the impression that gear gotten in PVE, cant be used in PVP. PVP has its own gear rewards bought with a currency called Glory that you only get through accomplishing things in PVP. At least thats what I thought was the case. Could be wrong I guess.
As for the guild bonuses, yea thats a problem. Influence, is given through guild actions. We dont know how much gold you really need to buy Influence. Could be unreasonable compared to just earning it outright. However sigh.....there is the Cash Store item that allows you to boost your Influence for a bit. At least it was in the leak.
You both are wrong.
WvWvW uses pve items but it scales you to lvl 80 but you keep your gear.
Its true that you can buy influence with gold but for the meager 100g you get 10k influence. Buffs for WvWvW only cost 200 inflience or so, take 1 day to complete, and you CANT stack them.
Also there is no influence boost item, check again, thats only for preorders.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
What advantage can you get in WvW? At most you will get to level cap faster, but since your facing two other entire servers unless you on a server that has more people using XP boosts then the other server it should functionally balance itself out.
Even then if you have more max level characters on one server it will just get pushed higher up on the server brackets against other servers with similar number of max level characters. There is no bonus other than bragging rights for being higher up on the server brackets.
Getting to max level takes around 100 hours of game time, which is faster than WoW so no where near grinding.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
I'm aware of the fact, that some of the top tier players are making money from games, however now it has moved into the category of a job. And there's nothing wrong to have a job that's closly related to what you would call a hobby, most athletes have it this way - hell, I have it this way.
I don't think you are right about bribes - you simply can't draw a parallel between the CS and bribes. You have bought a product and they offer a complimentary product with the first product. However if it was a third party distributer service, which was banned from the game, then you might be able to draw the parallel - since you now got an unfair advantage.
Furthermore we are done to discussing the very perception of business and life, which is a derail. I will refer you to the OP, who states that it progression should come from time and effort. My argument is, that some people don't have the time to play as much as other people does, since they are working alot. They invest their time and effort to earn money, which they can choose to buy products from - products that in NO way will harm others, except letting them catch up.
Now do really think, there is ANY comparison between this and bribes?
Believe me, I understand your point of view. But I'm just relating the viewpoint of those who actually view gaming as having some fundamental principles, especially when it is a situation where one's actions affect others. When you "buy" yourself to a more advanced state via a cash shop in a game with competition (GW2 has PVP for example) you essentially have purchased your way over somebody else. You have impacted other people. Just like the bribery example impacts his coworkers. The guy bribing can pretend "whats the harm" but the harm is he got ahead of other people who "deserved" it more.
In multiplayer games, there are many rules we instinctively know we must all follow (you can even derive morals the same way you do in real life). I think most agree getting ahead by cheating is wrong in a multiplayer game right? I hope you feel that way, but maybe you don't. There are people that constantly seek out glitches and exploits for example, and I do not respect getting ahead that way either. I view getting ahead by paying real money is very similar to exploiting a glitch.
In other MMOs I was aware of glitches, but I personally never used them. It just felt wrong. As do cash shops that offer the same advantages in my opinion.
Lets get our assumptions straight. From what I have heard or learned about GW2, you can buy cosmetic items and experience boosts etc. You won't able to buy the sword of death touch. So basically, you wont be buying an advantage. I believe we agree that cosmestic items are out of this discussion? Under the assumption, that you can spend your TIME working for MONEY or you can spend your TIME grind EXP. Then EXP and MONEY goes hand in hand, they are equal, nothing more to it. This is my point.
Now i'll repeat myself and say, if you can buy better stats, stronger gear, pots of mass destruction or anything remotely equal to that, then I cannot stress enough how much I agree with you.
However this is NOT, what the OP is about. The OP is arguing that time-savers are pay-to-win. I take the opposition to this. I don't believe it's true. Let's take golden example, since you brought up the top-tier-elite-pro-gamers. League of Legends, they have the time-saving cash-shop items. People are competing at the very highest level of competition without the usage of these products, they dont influence the game. They save time. You will be able to use your TIME earning MONEY from with you can save TIME. You see, it's zero-sum-game.
Lets get our assumptions straight. From what I have heard or learned about GW2, you can buy cosmetic items and experience boosts etc. You won't able to buy the sword of death touch. So basically, you wont be buying an advantage. I believe we agree that cosmestic items are out of this discussion? Under the assumption, that you can spend your TIME working for MONEY or you can spend your TIME grind EXP. Then EXP and MONEY goes hand in hand, they are equal, nothing more to it. This is my point.
Now i'll repeat myself and say, if you can buy better stats, stronger gear, pots of mass destruction or anything remotely equal to that, then I cannot stress enough how much I agree with you.
However this is NOT, what the OP is about. The OP is arguing that time-savers are pay-to-win. I take the opposition to this. I don't believe it's true. Let's take golden example, since you brought up the top-tier-elite-pro-gamers. League of Legends, they have the time-saving cash-shop items. People are competing at the very highest level of competition without the usage of these products, they dont influence the game. They save time. You will be able to use your TIME earning MONEY from with you can save TIME. You see, it's zero-sum-game.
If time-savers are not pay2win, then for example a large number of Korean F2P grinders are not pay2win either (and they are almost universal viewed as pay2win). Contrary to the assertions of many GW2 cash shop advocates, a large number of F2P pay2win games do NOT have a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
Therefore, there is a gray area where many will consider it pay2win and many won't. It is a slippery slope at best. It gets even more leaning towards pay2win the more "grindy" type activities they add. For instance item repair. At some point if you need to grind gold constantly to keep up with item repair, allowing a cash shop purchase of "insta repair" will be pay2win as well
And GW2 has both of these features: ability to purchase quicker advancement and ability to purchase removal of other grind.'
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope even without a cash-shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I thought most people here complained over that you level too fast in modern mmos?
Why would I care if some schuck level up a lot faster than me? There are plenty of people getting powerleveled by their guildm what do you call that?
Pay2loose is actually more accurate since when I am maxed out I will have run all dungeons on the way in hard mode. I will learn a lot more when I level up and therefore be better when I reach 80.
XP pota really is only relevant in asian grinders where reaching max level without it might take a year.
As I see it are morons paying to miss a large part of the game, the part I think is most fun, I don't see how that is winning.
Or do you think that the faster you max out the better you are? Most people who buy a new MMO and powerlevel up within the first week quits before their month is up.
If time-savers are not pay2win, then for example a large number of Korean F2P grinders are not pay2win either (and they are almost universal viewed as pay2win). Contrary to the assertions of many GW2 cash shop advocates, a large number of F2P pay2win games do NOT have a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
Therefore, there is a gray area where many will consider it pay2win and many won't. It is a slippery slope at best. It gets even more leaning towards pay2win the more "grindy" type activities they add. For instance item repair. At some point if you need to grind gold constantly to keep up with item repair, allowing a cash shop purchase of "insta repair" will be pay2win as well
And GW2 has both of these features: ability to purchase quicker advancement and ability to purchase removal of other grind.'
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope even without a cash-shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
It is still not pay to win even if you never reach max level without paying.
Reaching max level in a MMO is not winning. Particularly not in a PvE game.
It is really bad though, but more pay2save time. But do you honestly think that mpost people wont have a maxed out GW2 character after a month?
Most people buying xp pots are altaholics that already have 2-3 maxed out characters in western games.
I thought most people here complained over that you level too fast in modern mmos?
Why would I care if some schuck level up a lot faster than me? There are plenty of people getting powerleveled by their guildm what do you call that?
Pay2loose is actually more accurate since when I am maxed out I will have run all dungeons on the way in hard mode. I will learn a lot more when I level up and therefore be better when I reach 80.
XP pota really is only relevant in asian grinders where reaching max level without it might take a year.
As I see it are morons paying to miss a large part of the game, the part I think is most fun, I don't see how that is winning.
Or do you think that the faster you max out the better you are? Most people who buy a new MMO and powerlevel up within the first week quits before their month is up.
I couldn't agree more. I have waited for this game to long to boost through it. I'm taking the time and enjoying every minute I can!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope.
And yet, guildwars 2 is much c loser to your second example. Every level after 15 has a the same TTL as every other level. No inflating the xp per level to make it seem like the game is longer... I believe they said that each level takes about 90 minutes. That makes it 120 hours to max level played continuously(assuming you aren't stopping to do the exploration stuff, or use the auction house, or any number of other things that might make the game enjoyable). Someone who used cash shop items to make it faster(assuming they used a new one every time the last one expired) would go through 216 of the exp boosts, and would take 108 hours to make max level instead of 120... Has 12 hours somehow become P2W? By your logic, this would be "trivial" and not considered P2W, and yet you conclude that it is P2W...
Maybe you've never seen the math done that way, but it sure looks trivial to me...
How about some more math? Lets say, for the sake of argument, that each of the xp boosts costs 50 cents... That is 108 dollars to save 12 hours... how about if they cost a dollar a piece? 216$ to save 12 hours? If it is 1 cent each and it costs them $2.16, is it still P2W(since pretty much everyone should be able to afford that, if they are buying a $80 game)
The other thing is this concept of "win". "Win" implies competition, so who exactly are they winning against with these exp boosts? It won't be people in PvP, since PvP is normalized(level in WvW and level+gear in arena/e-sport)... And in PvE this is a coop game, and the most they will be is 12 hours ahead of someone who has put in the same time, and EVERYONE SCALES, so its not even like they can see content the other person can't get to...
I just don't understand how this is P2W and what, exactly, they are supposed to be winning, and who is losing(since in order to have a winner you have to have a loser). If no one is losing, and no one who is using these items is getting any advantage which is not trivial(in my estimation, and I think in yours as well) how exactly is it P2W?
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
Is Guild Wars 2 a Korean grinder? The game isn't even explicitly about getting to max level, which is what makes "Korean grinders" using cash to shorten that time "pay 2 win". As a level 2, I'm fairly certain I can have a level 80 upscale me in power to level 80, and I can participate in content at that level. That's a built in mechanic of the game. Furthermore, leveling curve is flat, and power is downscaled to the area you're in. Leveling does not mean as much as you may believe it does in GW2.
Also, those "advantages" that you mentioned would be so incredibly miniscule when the actual currency system in question relies on many people contributing influence to the guild, so to have any tangible impact on WvW, you'd need a massive guild with everyone in it using boosts to gain an advantageous amount of influence to have a decisive impact on WvW. And that's only temporary! On a game type that is NOT really about fair competition. They take measures to keep imbalances from breaking the game type, but players would need to spend anm inordinate amount of influence to truly "win" in that sen
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
Also, those "advantages" that you mentioned would be so incredibly miniscule when the actual currency system in question relies on many people contributing influence to the guild, so to have any tangible impact on WvW, you'd need a massive guild with everyone in it using boosts to gain an advantageous amount of influence to have a decisive impact on WvW. And that's only temporary! On a game type that is NOT really about fair competition. They take measures to keep imbalances from breaking the game type, but players would need to spend anm inordinate amount of influence to truly "win" in that sen
Then why are those "incredibly miniscule advantages" offered for sale in the cash shop? They are not cosmetic, so they must be something. So you are saying Anet is just relying on people being so stupid that they give them money to get nothing, not even a cosmetic item?
That argument just doesn't make sense to be honest.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
If time-savers are not pay2win, then for example a large number of Korean F2P grinders are not pay2win either (and they are almost universal viewed as pay2win). Contrary to the assertions of many GW2 cash shop advocates, a large number of F2P pay2win games do NOT have a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
Therefore, there is a gray area where many will consider it pay2win and many won't. It is a slippery slope at best. It gets even more leaning towards pay2win the more "grindy" type activities they add. For instance item repair. At some point if you need to grind gold constantly to keep up with item repair, allowing a cash shop purchase of "insta repair" will be pay2win as well
And GW2 has both of these features: ability to purchase quicker advancement and ability to purchase removal of other grind.'
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope even without a cash-shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
It is still not pay to win even if you never reach max level without paying.
Reaching max level in a MMO is not winning. Particularly not in a PvE game.
It is really bad though, but more pay2save time. But do you honestly think that mpost people wont have a maxed out GW2 character after a month?
Most people buying xp pots are altaholics that already have 2-3 maxed out characters in western games.
RvRvR advantages can be purchased in the cash shop. To some (including me) RvRvR was the most intriguing aspect of GW2. If it is soiled by a pay2win cash shop ("miniscule" advantages some say but advantages nontheless) then that ruins the experience for me.
I understand some say "Just deal with it no big deal" but many people think there is a code of conduct when it comes to PVP. No cheating, no glitching, no exploiting, and no cash shop. Thats the way I see it. Either be more skilled or work harder, but don't rely on anything outside of that please.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
T
R
E
A
L
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
Also, those "advantages" that you mentioned would be so incredibly miniscule when the actual currency system in question relies on many people contributing influence to the guild, so to have any tangible impact on WvW, you'd need a massive guild with everyone in it using boosts to gain an advantageous amount of influence to have a decisive impact on WvW. And that's only temporary! On a game type that is NOT really about fair competition. They take measures to keep imbalances from breaking the game type, but players would need to spend anm inordinate amount of influence to truly "win" in that sen
Then why are those "incredibly miniscule advantages" offered for sale in the cash shop? They are not cosmetic, so they must be something. So you are saying Anet is just relying on people being so stupid that they give them money to get nothing, not even a cosmetic item?
That argument just doesn't make sense to be honest.
You're right! I even questioned the existence of these items in the first place because experience boosts mean squat to me. Leveling is as about a non-factor as it was in Guild Wars 1. It just takes longer. And the actually boost on this items are kind of hilariously small too. But suppose the purchasing of these items did translate into clear power disparities by some odd stretch of the imagination. It's only temporary, and WvW is not about equal footing and fair competition.
You'd have about as much right to complain as you would if you got jumped by 7 mesmers in the Eternal Battleground while you were alone. In a game type measuring in the hundreds of player, WvW harbors power and numerical differences, so if you're annoyed that some players may have "cheated their way to level 80", then go do structured PvP where it's not actually possible for them to do anything remotely close to the aforementioned.
Then why are those "incredibly miniscule advantages" offered for sale in the cash shop? They are not cosmetic, so they must be something. So you are saying Anet is just relying on people being so stupid that they give them money to get nothing, not even a cosmetic item?
That argument just doesn't make sense to be honest.
Because people will buy them, and they cost basically nothing. Never underestimate how little some people care about a few dollars here and there.
The big money makers in the shops are going to be stuff like the minipets, magical plant food, account options and cosmetics. The boosts will only be used by people who can only play an hour or so a week and want to get as much out of it as possible and not power gamers.
If time-savers are not pay2win, then for example a large number of Korean F2P grinders are not pay2win either (and they are almost universal viewed as pay2win). Contrary to the assertions of many GW2 cash shop advocates, a large number of F2P pay2win games do NOT have a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
Therefore, there is a gray area where many will consider it pay2win and many won't. It is a slippery slope at best. It gets even more leaning towards pay2win the more "grindy" type activities they add. For instance item repair. At some point if you need to grind gold constantly to keep up with item repair, allowing a cash shop purchase of "insta repair" will be pay2win as well
And GW2 has both of these features: ability to purchase quicker advancement and ability to purchase removal of other grind.'
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope even without a cash-shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
It is still not pay to win even if you never reach max level without paying.
Reaching max level in a MMO is not winning. Particularly not in a PvE game.
It is really bad though, but more pay2save time. But do you honestly think that mpost people wont have a maxed out GW2 character after a month?
Most people buying xp pots are altaholics that already have 2-3 maxed out characters in western games.
RvRvR advantages can be purchased in the cash shop. To some (including me) RvRvR was the most intriguing aspect of GW2. If it is soiled by a pay2win cash shop ("miniscule" advantages some say but advantages nontheless) then that ruins the experience for me.
I understand some say "Just deal with it no big deal" but many people think there is a code of conduct when it comes to PVP. No cheating, no glitching, no exploiting, and no cash shop. Thats the way I see it. Either be more skilled or work harder, but don't rely on anything outside of that please.
1.) It's PvPvE...
Structured PvP is what you're really looking for if you want those codes of conduct to be in play.
2.) We have yet to see the actual impact of these "RvR advantages" that can be purchased in the shop, but assuming it's worse case scenario: you have have a server with a mega guild that has throw away influence left over from the the disgusting amounts of real money ALL of it's members spent in the shop... this is why there are two other servers that can offset the differences by setting all blasters to incinerate on the server that's been running the map for the better half of a day.
These problems are inevitably mitigated by the structure of the game itself. If the above is that much of a dealbreaker to you, then it's on you. You shouldn't misrepresent or overblow the details with vague rhetoric. Many of the uninformed could easily visit some of these posts and assume GW2 is a full blown pay to win pew pew money fest dollar mongering grindfest.
I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.
This is why I always skip to the bottom of a long post before reading it through.
They may have a compelling argument, but they sure don't know how to conclude. You get all these ridiculous grasps at pre-emptive retaliation, defensiveness, veiled threats, insults, and assumptions disguised as mystical sayings, and more. It's just so great to read sometimes, even if it brings the end of the post some other direction.
It's like you guys haven't taken a composition course in your life. Learn how to end your essays.
On topic:
Yep, they are pay to win. Just like subscriptions are pay to win. Just like buying the box of a game is paying to win. Turns out that everything you do is pay to win! Who would have guessed?
I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.
This is why I always skip to the bottom of a long post before reading it through.
They may have a compelling argument, but they sure don't know how to conclude. You get all these ridiculous grasps at pre-emptive retaliation, defensiveness, veiled threats, insults, and assumptions disguised as mystical sayings, and more. It's just so great to read sometimes, even if it brings the end of the post some other direction.
It's like you guys haven't taken a composition course in your life. Learn how to end your essays.
On topic:
Yep, they are pay to win. Just like subscriptions are pay to win. Just like buying the box of a game is paying to win. Turns out that everything you do is pay to win! Who would have guessed?
Comments
If u dont like the idea of "time convenience item", dont play any mmo then, because all mmo has this kind of item.
WOW: The Most Well Known Non-Free Non-Browser Client-Based 3D Fantasy MMORPG In Some Parts of the World.
Expansion packs are for the most part different games. In your WoW example, those who did not buy the expansion pack would not be allowed on the new continent at all. And they would also not meet those other players in the same instanced battlegrounds (they were alwasy tiered by level and those of higher level would be in different battlegrounds).
If you are referring to those who buy the expansion pack, then go back to the lower level open world zones and prey on the lower level players, well, do you consider that fair? No. In those lower level zones the person who paid for the expansion pack did pay2win over the players that didn't.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I'm aware of the fact, that some of the top tier players are making money from games, however now it has moved into the category of a job. And there's nothing wrong to have a job that's closly related to what you would call a hobby, most athletes have it this way - hell, I have it this way.
I don't think you are right about bribes - you simply can't draw a parallel between the CS and bribes. You have bought a product and they offer a complimentary product with the first product. However if it was a third party distributer service, which was banned from the game, then you might be able to draw the parallel - since you now got an unfair advantage.
Furthermore we are done to discussing the very perception of business and life, which is a derail. I will refer you to the OP, who states that it progression should come from time and effort. My argument is, that some people don't have the time to play as much as other people does, since they are working alot. They invest their time and effort to earn money, which they can choose to buy products from - products that in NO way will harm others, except letting them catch up.
Now do really think, there is ANY comparison between this and bribes?
This argument completely ignores the advantages that can be purchased in RvRvR. Many GW2 cash shop advocates always conveniently gloss over this fact.
But even if that weren't true (which it is), paying money to avoid grind is how the F2P Korean grinders work. So not having to spend time grinding is considered by most an advantage.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Well, I must say I love your mathematical expression about it. Can I upvote this?
If what you are saying is true, that you can buy stuff - that in some way will aid a person in getting an advantage over a equally skilled person and geared for that matter, then we are talking about some completly different from the OP - and here I totally agree, this is PAY TO WIN, as long its not obtainable without the use of real currency.
So if I worked a lot and my hobby was gambling in Vegas, the pit boss should let me buy to win a hand? I'm confused on why people keep coorelating their work and a game. If you work you don't have the time to play...thats part of life, point blank. Maybe I'm just old fasioned.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I think they took out the megaphones from the cash shop
Believe me, I understand your point of view. But I'm just relating the viewpoint of those who actually view gaming as having some fundamental principles, especially when it is a situation where one's actions affect others. When you "buy" yourself to a more advanced state via a cash shop in a game with competition (GW2 has PVP for example) you essentially have purchased your way over somebody else. You have impacted other people. Just like the bribery example impacts his coworkers. The guy bribing can pretend "whats the harm" but the harm is he got ahead of other people who "deserved" it more.
In multiplayer games, there are many rules we instinctively know we must all follow (you can even derive morals the same way you do in real life). I think most agree getting ahead by cheating is wrong in a multiplayer game right? I hope you feel that way, but maybe you don't. There are people that constantly seek out glitches and exploits for example, and I do not respect getting ahead that way either. I view getting ahead by paying real money is very similar to exploiting a glitch.
In other MMOs I was aware of glitches, but I personally never used them. It just felt wrong. As do cash shops that offer the same advantages in my opinion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
You both are wrong.
WvWvW uses pve items but it scales you to lvl 80 but you keep your gear.
Its true that you can buy influence with gold but for the meager 100g you get 10k influence. Buffs for WvWvW only cost 200 inflience or so, take 1 day to complete, and you CANT stack them.
Also there is no influence boost item, check again, thats only for preorders.
What advantage can you get in WvW? At most you will get to level cap faster, but since your facing two other entire servers unless you on a server that has more people using XP boosts then the other server it should functionally balance itself out.
Even then if you have more max level characters on one server it will just get pushed higher up on the server brackets against other servers with similar number of max level characters. There is no bonus other than bragging rights for being higher up on the server brackets.
Getting to max level takes around 100 hours of game time, which is faster than WoW so no where near grinding.
Lets get our assumptions straight. From what I have heard or learned about GW2, you can buy cosmetic items and experience boosts etc. You won't able to buy the sword of death touch. So basically, you wont be buying an advantage. I believe we agree that cosmestic items are out of this discussion? Under the assumption, that you can spend your TIME working for MONEY or you can spend your TIME grind EXP. Then EXP and MONEY goes hand in hand, they are equal, nothing more to it. This is my point.
Now i'll repeat myself and say, if you can buy better stats, stronger gear, pots of mass destruction or anything remotely equal to that, then I cannot stress enough how much I agree with you.
However this is NOT, what the OP is about. The OP is arguing that time-savers are pay-to-win. I take the opposition to this. I don't believe it's true. Let's take golden example, since you brought up the top-tier-elite-pro-gamers. League of Legends, they have the time-saving cash-shop items. People are competing at the very highest level of competition without the usage of these products, they dont influence the game. They save time. You will be able to use your TIME earning MONEY from with you can save TIME. You see, it's zero-sum-game.
If time-savers are not pay2win, then for example a large number of Korean F2P grinders are not pay2win either (and they are almost universal viewed as pay2win). Contrary to the assertions of many GW2 cash shop advocates, a large number of F2P pay2win games do NOT have a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
Therefore, there is a gray area where many will consider it pay2win and many won't. It is a slippery slope at best. It gets even more leaning towards pay2win the more "grindy" type activities they add. For instance item repair. At some point if you need to grind gold constantly to keep up with item repair, allowing a cash shop purchase of "insta repair" will be pay2win as well
And GW2 has both of these features: ability to purchase quicker advancement and ability to purchase removal of other grind.'
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope even without a cash-shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage."
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I thought most people here complained over that you level too fast in modern mmos?
Why would I care if some schuck level up a lot faster than me? There are plenty of people getting powerleveled by their guildm what do you call that?
Pay2loose is actually more accurate since when I am maxed out I will have run all dungeons on the way in hard mode. I will learn a lot more when I level up and therefore be better when I reach 80.
XP pota really is only relevant in asian grinders where reaching max level without it might take a year.
As I see it are morons paying to miss a large part of the game, the part I think is most fun, I don't see how that is winning.
Or do you think that the faster you max out the better you are? Most people who buy a new MMO and powerlevel up within the first week quits before their month is up.
It is still not pay to win even if you never reach max level without paying.
Reaching max level in a MMO is not winning. Particularly not in a PvE game.
It is really bad though, but more pay2save time. But do you honestly think that mpost people wont have a maxed out GW2 character after a month?
Most people buying xp pots are altaholics that already have 2-3 maxed out characters in western games.
I couldn't agree more. I have waited for this game to long to boost through it. I'm taking the time and enjoying every minute I can!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
And yet, guildwars 2 is much c loser to your second example. Every level after 15 has a the same TTL as every other level. No inflating the xp per level to make it seem like the game is longer... I believe they said that each level takes about 90 minutes. That makes it 120 hours to max level played continuously(assuming you aren't stopping to do the exploration stuff, or use the auction house, or any number of other things that might make the game enjoyable). Someone who used cash shop items to make it faster(assuming they used a new one every time the last one expired) would go through 216 of the exp boosts, and would take 108 hours to make max level instead of 120... Has 12 hours somehow become P2W? By your logic, this would be "trivial" and not considered P2W, and yet you conclude that it is P2W...
Maybe you've never seen the math done that way, but it sure looks trivial to me...
How about some more math? Lets say, for the sake of argument, that each of the xp boosts costs 50 cents... That is 108 dollars to save 12 hours... how about if they cost a dollar a piece? 216$ to save 12 hours? If it is 1 cent each and it costs them $2.16, is it still P2W(since pretty much everyone should be able to afford that, if they are buying a $80 game)
The other thing is this concept of "win". "Win" implies competition, so who exactly are they winning against with these exp boosts? It won't be people in PvP, since PvP is normalized(level in WvW and level+gear in arena/e-sport)... And in PvE this is a coop game, and the most they will be is 12 hours ahead of someone who has put in the same time, and EVERYONE SCALES, so its not even like they can see content the other person can't get to...
I just don't understand how this is P2W and what, exactly, they are supposed to be winning, and who is losing(since in order to have a winner you have to have a loser). If no one is losing, and no one who is using these items is getting any advantage which is not trivial(in my estimation, and I think in yours as well) how exactly is it P2W?
Is Guild Wars 2 a Korean grinder? The game isn't even explicitly about getting to max level, which is what makes "Korean grinders" using cash to shorten that time "pay 2 win". As a level 2, I'm fairly certain I can have a level 80 upscale me in power to level 80, and I can participate in content at that level. That's a built in mechanic of the game. Furthermore, leveling curve is flat, and power is downscaled to the area you're in. Leveling does not mean as much as you may believe it does in GW2.
Also, those "advantages" that you mentioned would be so incredibly miniscule when the actual currency system in question relies on many people contributing influence to the guild, so to have any tangible impact on WvW, you'd need a massive guild with everyone in it using boosts to gain an advantageous amount of influence to have a decisive impact on WvW. And that's only temporary! On a game type that is NOT really about fair competition. They take measures to keep imbalances from breaking the game type, but players would need to spend anm inordinate amount of influence to truly "win" in that sen
Then why are those "incredibly miniscule advantages" offered for sale in the cash shop? They are not cosmetic, so they must be something. So you are saying Anet is just relying on people being so stupid that they give them money to get nothing, not even a cosmetic item?
That argument just doesn't make sense to be honest.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
RvRvR advantages can be purchased in the cash shop. To some (including me) RvRvR was the most intriguing aspect of GW2. If it is soiled by a pay2win cash shop ("miniscule" advantages some say but advantages nontheless) then that ruins the experience for me.
I understand some say "Just deal with it no big deal" but many people think there is a code of conduct when it comes to PVP. No cheating, no glitching, no exploiting, and no cash shop. Thats the way I see it. Either be more skilled or work harder, but don't rely on anything outside of that please.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
You're right! I even questioned the existence of these items in the first place because experience boosts mean squat to me. Leveling is as about a non-factor as it was in Guild Wars 1. It just takes longer. And the actually boost on this items are kind of hilariously small too. But suppose the purchasing of these items did translate into clear power disparities by some odd stretch of the imagination. It's only temporary, and WvW is not about equal footing and fair competition.
You'd have about as much right to complain as you would if you got jumped by 7 mesmers in the Eternal Battleground while you were alone. In a game type measuring in the hundreds of player, WvW harbors power and numerical differences, so if you're annoyed that some players may have "cheated their way to level 80", then go do structured PvP where it's not actually possible for them to do anything remotely close to the aforementioned.
Because people will buy them, and they cost basically nothing. Never underestimate how little some people care about a few dollars here and there.
The big money makers in the shops are going to be stuff like the minipets, magical plant food, account options and cosmetics. The boosts will only be used by people who can only play an hour or so a week and want to get as much out of it as possible and not power gamers.
1.) It's PvPvE...
Structured PvP is what you're really looking for if you want those codes of conduct to be in play.
2.) We have yet to see the actual impact of these "RvR advantages" that can be purchased in the shop, but assuming it's worse case scenario: you have have a server with a mega guild that has throw away influence left over from the the disgusting amounts of real money ALL of it's members spent in the shop... this is why there are two other servers that can offset the differences by setting all blasters to incinerate on the server that's been running the map for the better half of a day.
These problems are inevitably mitigated by the structure of the game itself. If the above is that much of a dealbreaker to you, then it's on you. You shouldn't misrepresent or overblow the details with vague rhetoric. Many of the uninformed could easily visit some of these posts and assume GW2 is a full blown pay to win pew pew money fest dollar mongering grindfest.
This is why I always skip to the bottom of a long post before reading it through.
They may have a compelling argument, but they sure don't know how to conclude. You get all these ridiculous grasps at pre-emptive retaliation, defensiveness, veiled threats, insults, and assumptions disguised as mystical sayings, and more. It's just so great to read sometimes, even if it brings the end of the post some other direction.
It's like you guys haven't taken a composition course in your life. Learn how to end your essays.
On topic:
Yep, they are pay to win. Just like subscriptions are pay to win. Just like buying the box of a game is paying to win. Turns out that everything you do is pay to win! Who would have guessed?
Le gasp!