So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Nothing in the cash shop is exclusive to people with a major in finance. How exactly will it help you catch up to people who have more time and use time convenience items ontop of that?
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Give me a friggin break. You expect people who arent rich of their asses to spend job money on extra virtual items.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
I'm retired military. I payed social security for 24 years in service and pay social security with my retirement check. That guy hates us! lol
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
I'm retired military. I payed social security for 24 years in service and pay social security with my retirement check. That guy hates us! lol
You made me smile. And thanks for servin'. Proud to be a vet and proud to be a gamer (no they're not equivalent, obviously), but I was even more proud when I felt like I was contributing more to society, ya know? Sometimes you just have to stand up and speak your mind.
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
A lot of rambling for nothing. Explain to me how someone hitting the level cap sooner than you gives them that much of an advantage? There will always be someone better than you no matter what. I could understand people getting worried if they were selling items or stuff only obtainable via gems (which isn't the case), but obviously people have no clue what the definition of "pay 2 win" is.
That's like telling someone they can't play more than 2 hours because that's all the time you have, and if they do they'd be at an advantage, which they wouldn't really. MMORPG weren't meant to be races to level cap.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
I'm retired military. I payed social security for 24 years in service and pay social security with my retirement check. That guy hates us! lol
You made me smile. And thanks for servin'. Proud to be a vet and proud to be a gamer, but I was even more proud when I felt like I was contributing more to society, ya know? Sometimes you just have to stand up and speak your mind.
Sorry for the momentary derail.
Game on.....
LOL you made me smile with the "Game on..."! Well I do very much understant what you are talking about. TY too.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
A lot of rambling for nothing. Explain to me how someone hitting the level cap sooner than you gives them that much of an advantage? There will always be someone better than you no matter what. I could understand people getting worried if they were selling items or stuff only obtainable via gems (which isn't the case), but obviously people have no clue what the definition of "pay 2 win" is.
That's like telling someone they can't play more than 2 hours because that's all the time you have, and if they do they'd be at an advantage, which they wouldn't really. MMORPG weren't meant to be races to level cap.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
Yep, compete in PvE leveling with all of those people that are on your team in WvWvW PvP. If they get to level 80 first, they will always be better than everyone else. Forever, period.
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
So the lvl 5 guy can earn as many rewards in game as the lvl 80 guy? Oh thats right, you are talking hogwash.
There is always an advantage to being higher lvl than the next guy. Lets not stop there though....the guy paying thru the nose, in the cash shop, can also pad his bank with bought money besides. If there was no advantage to money or levels, they wouldnt be there in the first place.
Repeat after me.....PAY TO WIN.
EQ was my first MMO, and I believe in earning what I have in game by putting the time in. For a forum that is supposedly about "working" in games, there sure are a lot of folks here defending cash shops.
Between cash shops, and having GW2 ready made for porting to consoles, I would say Anet made the perfect kiddie game.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
I'm retired military. I payed social security for 24 years in service and pay social security with my retirement check. That guy hates us! lol
You made me smile. And thanks for servin'. Proud to be a vet and proud to be a gamer (no they're not equivalent, obviously), but I was even more proud when I felt like I was contributing more to society, ya know? Sometimes you just have to stand up and speak your mind.
Sorry for the momentary derail.
Game on.....
This is not only meant for you.
However, Im glad that some people choose to serve their contry in their foreign affairs, even though I do not agree in the methods being used.
I can see from your post, that you did not take any offense from my post - and I believe, that if you take an offense from a post like this, there is some truth to it. In my honest opinion you have paid your dues, but why am I telling you this. Im pretty sure you already know it.
I have absolutely no problem with helping people out, if they are entitled to it. I live in Denmark, one of the highest taxed and most social responsible countries in the world, however there are so many people just piggy-bagging the system. My political views are somewhat irrelevant, however I think Denmark is the best contry in the world and I happily pay 50-60% of my salary to the greater good of Denmark and the people living here - I coach soccer every summer for charity reasons.
I understand, that my post can come of in the wrong way, if you want it to be. I still believe, that people whine to danm much - I don't like the idea of a cash-shop either, but as long as it is only cosmetic and time convience my argument about disadvantage is still valid.
And to the guys, rambling about my major in finance and wealth - maybe you should have gotten an education aswell, there are plenty of jobs to go around, including flipping burgers. You and others are so short sighted, im in no way rich in Danish standards, however compared to the minimum wage of the US i might be. You are just forgetting one simple fact, you aren't paying a subscription for the game at hand - you are used to pay 15$/month for a game, this one is practically free compared to that. If anything you just got richer in terms of spending power. Do you read me?
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
Not 100% familiar with GW2's system, but in a typical system, I don't see how advancing faster has anything to do with power.
I am a former Anarchy Online player. and the game from inception had powerlevleing. It also has one of it's professions that is able to cast player buffs that increase XP gain rates.
I've never seen this in an of itself as power. Infact. In many cases it's a detrement. You get to far up in level and don't have the resouces to match so you end up gimped for you level.
I don't see the Cash shop as P2W ---so far well, except for gems.
The overall problem with items of convienience is when everyone starts using them and then now you have a large and growing number of players who are using the cash shop for their economy. So they stop farming. Once you get large numbers of people to stop farming, they aren't crafting. Now even more people have to turn to the cash shop.
Of course you will have the non cash shop users still farming and they probably have an easier time colleting with less competition for the mats, but when they come back with their mats or crafted items to sell, they have to over come the inflation caused by the shop.
Thing is, There WILL be gold trading. And there will be sinks added to balance.
Now, when you have an inflated economy that has been elevated through the purchasing of gems, You have just hurt the non cash shop users. They can't compete because the game's sinks will adjust to the inflation.
Before we can determine the level...if any of P2W, I think we need to know what the sinks are.
OP: It depends on game design. If we're talking about a game where a difference in character level would pre-determine the outcome of the battle, then yes. Being able to essentially buy levels constitute a Pay to Win scenario. Otherwise, I don't think it would matter. Max level characters will just have more options of abilities to choose from.
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
Gems can be used to get gold which you can use to buy influence which you can buy guildbuffs with that affect WvW Pvp, that's one example. Karma buff helps you get good gear faster which helps in WvW PvP etc.
I understand and respect your opinion that it doesn't affect the game much altho I don't agree.
Do you feel that the cash shop improves the game in any way? Would the game be worse without it?
For me the game would be better without the cash shop or with a cash shop with only cosmetic items since no in-game advantages, no matter how small, could be gained by using cash.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
A lot of rambling for nothing. Explain to me how someone hitting the level cap sooner than you gives them that much of an advantage? There will always be someone better than you no matter what. I could understand people getting worried if they were selling items or stuff only obtainable via gems (which isn't the case), but obviously people have no clue what the definition of "pay 2 win" is.
That's like telling someone they can't play more than 2 hours because that's all the time you have, and if they do they'd be at an advantage, which they wouldn't really. MMORPG weren't meant to be races to level cap.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
Yep, compete in PvE leveling with all of those people that are on your team in WvWvW PvP. If they get to level 80 first, they will always be better than everyone else. Forever, period.
In PvP, everyone is the same level. 80. It doesnt matter if you are level 1. If you enter PvP you are 80.
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
Gems can be used to get gold which you can use to buy influence which you can buy guildbuffs with that affect WvW Pvp, that's one example. Karma buff helps you get good gear faster which helps in WvW PvP etc.
I understand and respect your opinion that it doesn't affect the game much altho I don't agree.
Do you feel that the cash shop improves the game in any way? Would the game be worse without it?
For me the game would be better without the cash shop or with a cash shop with only cosmetic items since no in-game advantages, no matter how small, could be gained by using cash.
Im not sure, but I was under the impression that gear gotten in PVE, cant be used in PVP. PVP has its own gear rewards bought with a currency called Glory that you only get through accomplishing things in PVP. At least thats what I thought was the case. Could be wrong I guess.
As for the guild bonuses, yea thats a problem. Influence, is given through guild actions. We dont know how much gold you really need to buy Influence. Could be unreasonable compared to just earning it outright. However sigh.....there is the Cash Store item that allows you to boost your Influence for a bit. At least it was in the leak.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
Although I agree with you here, most full blown GW2 fans will call foul and for some reason want the cash shop. I will wait and see what happens. I like the idea of earning my way through life and game.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
G
E
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
"Pay 2 win" really needs to be defined. The way many people use the term, payed expansion packs would fall under the purview of "P2W."
With WoW, for instance, if you don't buy the latest expansion pack, you can't reach max level, acquire any of the new/upgraded skills/talents, or use any of the new, more powerful items that require you reach the new max level to use, and can only be found in the new dungeons that you can't access, or created with tradeskills that you can't get to a high enough level.
I.e., those who pay money to buy the expansion packs have access to higher levels (which means higher stats), more powerfull abilities, and more powerful weapons, armor, potions, etc., than a non-paying player. Ergo, p2w.
Of course, most people would consider this to be absurd, but if "spending real money in order to recieve any sort of non-cosmetic item that confers any sort of advantage over a non-paying player" is how we are to define P2W, then it logically follows.
So what you are basically saying is that you got no job and want to be the meanst bad-ass in GW2?
I mean, get freaking real. Talk about making investments into the game in terms of time and effort. Now I have a major in finance and I'll give you a hint in the right direction.
TIME IS MONEY.
So when time is money, why shouldnt you be able to use both inorder to progress in GW2? - You are talking about disadvantages, why the fuck should I have a disadvantage from having a job, working my ass off, paying taxes - so that unemployed people can turn in social security each month, while pwning my ass in GW2?
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Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.
Comments
Excuse me Mr. High and Mighty Employed Man, but some of those unemployed people are elderly and some are disabled. They also spent most of their working lives paying into the system, so it's rather cruel for you to insult them out of what....jealousy? Do you WANT to have only one leg from serving in the military? Or maybe paranoid schizophrenia sounds like fun to you? I don't think so. Really...think before you type.
I agree with most of what you were MEANING to say there, but you're walkin' a fine line with some of it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Nothing in the cash shop is exclusive to people with a major in finance. How exactly will it help you catch up to people who have more time and use time convenience items ontop of that?
Give me a friggin break. You expect people who arent rich of their asses to spend job money on extra virtual items.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
I'm retired military. I payed social security for 24 years in service and pay social security with my retirement check. That guy hates us! lol
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't there about twelve of these threads on here all about the same thing?
I think you are very correct. It must be a hot subject. A couple days ago they locked several just to let us start new ones.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
You made me smile.
And thanks for servin'. Proud to be a vet and proud to be a gamer (no they're not equivalent, obviously), but I was even more proud when I felt like I was contributing more to society, ya know? Sometimes you just have to stand up and speak your mind.
Sorry for the momentary derail.
Game on.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
These items make it quicker to hit level 80.
However, what exactly is the real benefit of that? Besides some kind of personal satisfaction? If you want to play with your friend and he's not using the Cash Shop XP booster then you still can, but when you do, you COME DOWN to his level. Woops.
Then there's the fact that it doesnt affect PVP. As it has its own monetary and rewards program.
So win how? In what way? Against other players? No. It just helps you get to 80 faster, for whatever reason you might want that.
There's economical concerns with this system, but WINNING implies competition. Mobs will not be defeated easier this way, so thats not WINNING. It doesnt carry over in to PVP so thats not WINNING.
Therefore there is no pay to WIN. Leveling may be made easier, but the difficulty of the mobs and PVP stays the same. So winning anything doesnt come into it.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
LOL you made me smile with the "Game on..."! Well I do very much understant what you are talking about. TY too.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Yep, compete in PvE leveling with all of those people that are on your team in WvWvW PvP. If they get to level 80 first, they will always be better than everyone else. Forever, period.
So the lvl 5 guy can earn as many rewards in game as the lvl 80 guy? Oh thats right, you are talking hogwash.
There is always an advantage to being higher lvl than the next guy. Lets not stop there though....the guy paying thru the nose, in the cash shop, can also pad his bank with bought money besides. If there was no advantage to money or levels, they wouldnt be there in the first place.
Repeat after me.....PAY TO WIN.
EQ was my first MMO, and I believe in earning what I have in game by putting the time in. For a forum that is supposedly about "working" in games, there sure are a lot of folks here defending cash shops.
Between cash shops, and having GW2 ready made for porting to consoles, I would say Anet made the perfect kiddie game.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
This is not only meant for you.
However, Im glad that some people choose to serve their contry in their foreign affairs, even though I do not agree in the methods being used.
I can see from your post, that you did not take any offense from my post - and I believe, that if you take an offense from a post like this, there is some truth to it. In my honest opinion you have paid your dues, but why am I telling you this. Im pretty sure you already know it.
I have absolutely no problem with helping people out, if they are entitled to it. I live in Denmark, one of the highest taxed and most social responsible countries in the world, however there are so many people just piggy-bagging the system. My political views are somewhat irrelevant, however I think Denmark is the best contry in the world and I happily pay 50-60% of my salary to the greater good of Denmark and the people living here - I coach soccer every summer for charity reasons.
I understand, that my post can come of in the wrong way, if you want it to be. I still believe, that people whine to danm much - I don't like the idea of a cash-shop either, but as long as it is only cosmetic and time convience my argument about disadvantage is still valid.
And to the guys, rambling about my major in finance and wealth - maybe you should have gotten an education aswell, there are plenty of jobs to go around, including flipping burgers. You and others are so short sighted, im in no way rich in Danish standards, however compared to the minimum wage of the US i might be. You are just forgetting one simple fact, you aren't paying a subscription for the game at hand - you are used to pay 15$/month for a game, this one is practically free compared to that. If anything you just got richer in terms of spending power. Do you read me?
Not 100% familiar with GW2's system, but in a typical system, I don't see how advancing faster has anything to do with power.
I am a former Anarchy Online player. and the game from inception had powerlevleing. It also has one of it's professions that is able to cast player buffs that increase XP gain rates.
I've never seen this in an of itself as power. Infact. In many cases it's a detrement. You get to far up in level and don't have the resouces to match so you end up gimped for you level.
I don't see the Cash shop as P2W ---so far well, except for gems.
The overall problem with items of convienience is when everyone starts using them and then now you have a large and growing number of players who are using the cash shop for their economy. So they stop farming. Once you get large numbers of people to stop farming, they aren't crafting. Now even more people have to turn to the cash shop.
Of course you will have the non cash shop users still farming and they probably have an easier time colleting with less competition for the mats, but when they come back with their mats or crafted items to sell, they have to over come the inflation caused by the shop.
Thing is, There WILL be gold trading. And there will be sinks added to balance.
Now, when you have an inflated economy that has been elevated through the purchasing of gems, You have just hurt the non cash shop users. They can't compete because the game's sinks will adjust to the inflation.
Before we can determine the level...if any of P2W, I think we need to know what the sinks are.
OP: It depends on game design. If we're talking about a game where a difference in character level would pre-determine the outcome of the battle, then yes. Being able to essentially buy levels constitute a Pay to Win scenario. Otherwise, I don't think it would matter. Max level characters will just have more options of abilities to choose from.
Gems can be used to get gold which you can use to buy influence which you can buy guildbuffs with that affect WvW Pvp, that's one example. Karma buff helps you get good gear faster which helps in WvW PvP etc.
I understand and respect your opinion that it doesn't affect the game much altho I don't agree.
Do you feel that the cash shop improves the game in any way? Would the game be worse without it?
For me the game would be better without the cash shop or with a cash shop with only cosmetic items since no in-game advantages, no matter how small, could be gained by using cash.
Well, how would you feel if somebody paid your boss for the promotion you wanted, even though you worked harder and were more skilled? It really is that simple. I've discussed this before in other threads using real world parallels that make this "time=money so you should be able to do both" argument seem silly. In real life, we all admire 2 of the following 3 ways of getting ahead:
1) Getting ahead by having great skill, great ideas, great tactics, and overall making all the right moves
2) Getting ahead by working hard, getting up early, working late, taking the time to do things right
3) Getting ahead by bribing your boss, having daddy get you a job through his connections, cheating, etc.
It really is the same in a virtual gaming world. If you don't earn it either via in-game skill or in-game work, you have not achieved a thing in-game and nobody will respect you. That is how I view it.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
In PvP, everyone is the same level. 80. It doesnt matter if you are level 1. If you enter PvP you are 80.
Im not sure, but I was under the impression that gear gotten in PVE, cant be used in PVP. PVP has its own gear rewards bought with a currency called Glory that you only get through accomplishing things in PVP. At least thats what I thought was the case. Could be wrong I guess.
As for the guild bonuses, yea thats a problem. Influence, is given through guild actions. We dont know how much gold you really need to buy Influence. Could be unreasonable compared to just earning it outright. However sigh.....there is the Cash Store item that allows you to boost your Influence for a bit. At least it was in the leak.
I'm in no way pro cash-shop, as you would have learned, reading my second post. However your arguments are invalid from the fact, that this is not a job. It's entertainment, a time killer, it will pass. And we pay for our entertainment everywhere, the movies, football matches, or what ever you like to spend your time on.
You have the right view in both bullets 1 and 2, but the third bullet is rubbish. Even though "bribing" exists, it will kill a company, country or any other organsation slowly from the single fact, that the skilled people will move away inorder to be awarded for their prowess, leaving the less skilled in the organisation. Now what happens? - The organisation will disolve, slowly, but it will disappear. There's is tons of examples, mainly former USSR countries.
Although I agree with you here, most full blown GW2 fans will call foul and for some reason want the cash shop. I will wait and see what happens. I like the idea of earning my way through life and game.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
The real world is part entertainment as well. And the virtual world is part work, particularly an MMO with an integrated economy. There is respect in a gaming world as well, particularly a PVP gaming world but even in the PVE oriented gaming worlds there are people who are respected in guilds, on servers, etc. In fact, the elite of the elite PVPers actually make real money in the real world off of their gaming prowess. People instinctively understand who deserves their fame and who doesn't.
As for the third bullet, not sure what your complaint is. Clearly people are given priviledge in this world based on connections and personal wealth. And that way of advancement in general is given less respect than high skill or hard work. At least among the people I associate with.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
"Pay 2 win" really needs to be defined. The way many people use the term, payed expansion packs would fall under the purview of "P2W."
With WoW, for instance, if you don't buy the latest expansion pack, you can't reach max level, acquire any of the new/upgraded skills/talents, or use any of the new, more powerful items that require you reach the new max level to use, and can only be found in the new dungeons that you can't access, or created with tradeskills that you can't get to a high enough level.
I.e., those who pay money to buy the expansion packs have access to higher levels (which means higher stats), more powerfull abilities, and more powerful weapons, armor, potions, etc., than a non-paying player. Ergo, p2w.
Of course, most people would consider this to be absurd, but if "spending real money in order to recieve any sort of non-cosmetic item that confers any sort of advantage over a non-paying player" is how we are to define P2W, then it logically follows.
This is not a parallel to any system used in a game that I'm aware of. Because you cannot pay for the exclusive priviledge of power. At least in other games, both players can pay for that same power, but in your analogy, the person who spent their time working and were more skilled can not obtain that position because someone else payed to secure it first. This has even lower relevance in Guild Wars 2, where time does not equal power. Since the only things players can purchase outside of cosmetic or utility items is time, then no power is gained. No one's "getting ahead".
If you're just talking about leveling, then there's a similar imbalance where a person who started first has the inherent advantage to "get ahead" leveling to max. But making it to max level first means absolutely nothing because power plateaus at max.
Money = Time in GW2, but Time=/= power/advantage in any form. They're just buying time.