Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Thought exercise: Is a subscription pay-to-win?

Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

Again, just a thought exercise.

«1345678

Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,903Member Uncommon

    My first thought was, would this be a result of constant upward progression or due to a sub model? It seems to me that it would have more to do with the progression. As this could be the case in any MMO that features 100% upward progression F2P or otherwise, rather than horizontal progression such as how GW2 is designed.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon

    An alternative thought exercise: a subscription is just paying for convenience. Let's say that you pay for four moths and grind some really amazing shit. I can pay for one month out of that four and still equal your amazingness - if I quit my job, sleep a few hours a night, and don't mind my wife leaving me because I do nothing but play videogames 20 hours a day.


    So paying the extra three months subscription is purely paying for convenience - the convenience of keeping my job, my wife, and my sleeping patterns. :-)

  • NaralNaral Solway, MNPosts: 751Member

    At the end of the day, imho, the person that puts the most value into a game will potentially get the most out of it. Like anything else in life, this is the logical progression.

    Now, the energy that person puts into the game can come in different forms. The person who pays for the sub is putting in the amount of time he or she works to pay for it, then the time in the game. If they spend 10 hours a day playing the game (I feel sorry for them) then they *should* be further along, and technically "winning" over the person who plays 10 hours a week.

    The person in a p2w game is paying with money he or she earned working to pay for the items that give them the same progression.

    I think people who object to the pay 2 win mentality, are really objecting to the fact that folks who want to win are not putting time into the game, or playing the game, but rather putting money in to pay to be ahead. It makes game play less important, and spending money you earn IRL more important.  In a competitive atmosphere, it puts the favor in the hands of the person with the most discretionary income and the will to spend it on virtual items.  People obviously have inequal amounts of time and money available, and no one likes to think they are not getting a fair shot, so neither system will appeal to all people, period.

    We all spend time with these games, or we would not be here on this forum. However, I feel we each value our time in unique ways. The fun for me playing any MMORPG is actually playing the game and makling friends. I do not mind paying for products if they are of a value to me, but I HATE buying a game, then having the rules changed after devoting time and money to the game (that is where my resentment comes in, the changing of a sub game to a pay to win game).

    You bring up a valid idea, I think, though I disagree. Just nice to have a civil discussion, however. =) Wonder if it will stay that way. I also wonder if this would not be better suited for a general forum, rather than a GW2 forum.

     

     

     

  • FonclFoncl UppsalaPosts: 197Member

    It depends on what your definition of pay to win is ofcourse and everyone has a different one. Many people who don't like the cash shop call it P2W and those who like it or don't mind it do not want it to be called P2W. Everyone has the same information about  the cash shop, I don't understand why so many people get hung up on what you call it.

     

    The cash shop and subscription model is what it is no matter what you call it, call it whatever you want for all I care. Comparing the cash shop or subscription model to other games doesn't change what it is either, let's just judge GW2's cash shop and subscription model on their own merits imo.

  • rhavokrhavok Murfreesboro, TNPosts: 117Member

    Well, I am not sure how the cash shop works out in GW2 and I don't want to give false information about it, so I won't make assumptions as to what is for sale in it.

    However, with WoW, or any other P2P game.  That fifteen dollars is only for access to the world, and that is all it promises.  There is no promise of exceptional gear, exp gain, increased bag space, or a novelty armor appearance.   In a subscription game, I cannot pay extra to level faster, run faster, have more storage, or anything else.  A person who can spend more money than another has no real advantage over someone who can't.

    In a game with a cash-shop, you have the edge if you have more money to spend.  Even if it is as simplistic as buying bag space.  That money promises a slight advantage over someone who does not pay the money.

    Just my thoughts.

  • Havok2allHavok2all Roswell, GAPosts: 188Member Uncommon

    Subscription provides a level playing field. Everyone, whether hardcore or casual, pay same rate each month. It then comes down to time and effort to acquire better performance equipment.

    P2W, a person with a lot of disposable income can acquire the best performance equipment in a quarter of the time as someone who attempts to get the same equipment through time and effort (if possible).

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    If you put a limit on spend on a game of $100 a month of P2W items then It is a fair game, it's just the entrance fee is $100 and min max spends will soon appear, but all those playing will know after $100 the game is real and not just a virtual shopping game. All a subscription does is provide that level playing field and takes shopping out of the game, lol, play something like Hello Kitty if you want to be a pretend shopper.
  • CromicaCromica West Fargo, NDPosts: 657Member Uncommon

    P2P is even playing field.

    GW2 is not P2W, anyone that thinks this know nothing.

  • JazKW347JazKW347 Vandalia, OHPosts: 54Member

    The only game this would definitively apply to, without a doubt would have to be Champions Online. The difference is very apparent.

    image
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    No... not even close.

    P2W (read: pay to win) is fairly self-explanatory. It implies that you need to drop down real cash to have the advantage over other players. Subscriptions do not give you an advantage over other players. The most advantage you can get from subscriptions would be paying for multiple accounts (which isn't unique to the subscription model), and would require you setup a system specifically for playing multiple characters all at once.

    P2W can only be used to describe systems in which paying real money gives a clear and (implied game-breaking) advantage over other players. Games like Silkroad or Allods are great examples of this.

    People will always misuse this term and the stigma that comes with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it has a very clear meaning attached to it.

  • KelthiusKelthius Troup, TXPosts: 298Member



    Originally posted by Havok2all
    Subscription provides a level playing field. Everyone, whether hardcore or casual, pay same rate each month. It then comes down to time and effort to acquire better performance equipment.
    P2W, a person with a lot of disposable income can acquire the best performance equipment in a quarter of the time as someone who attempts to get the same equipment through time and effort (if possible).

    Well put.
     
    In the case of GW2, I believe it depends on whether or not gear differences really are cosmetic alone.

    image
  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

    Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

    Again, just a thought exercise.

    The Cash Shop model has been the taboo in the genre denounced and rejected because of the influence it has on the games that use them. And they given the stigma of P2W and/or F2P

    P2P had always been the acceptable methods by which we judged a legitimate pay model.

    Now that GW2 rolls around announcing that it will have a CS and that it's most certainly more than fluff itmes we now have to change the definitions of P2P and P2W models to suit and beneifit our prescious GW2? And now the Cash Shop model is not only accepted but embraced?

    Really?

    I can't believe I am reading this nonsense.

    All hail the cash shop! The savior of the MMO genre!

  • gladosrev2gladosrev2 BialystokPosts: 203Member

    Of course a sub is pay to win, the purest form of it. Isn't it obvious? If you pay a sub, and I don't, in games that allow both, who will have access to more content, and features?

    People seem to totally forget we live in a FTP era where subs are optional. Sure there are still disnosaurs like WoW that stick to the old 'sub only' model but who gives a damn about it.

    My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    if everybody pays, and not everybody wins, then no.

    image

  • CavodCavod Brookfield, WIPosts: 295Member

    No OP, you're confusing PAY to win with PLAY to win.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    In a Sub model, you win because you want it more than the other guy

    Simple as that. You want to be great in WoW's areans...Practice and get better, Sky's the limit.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    It's only conceivable if there is an F2P constituant that really puts them behind a subscription player in a PvP situation. Rewards, and time/effort aside, if there is some kind of AA system that makes any subbed player *that* much more effective than a non-player, then it can be construed as a P2W.

    Just about anything can be construed as P2W, though... if you try hard enough.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • grinderygrindery Williamsburg, OHPosts: 34Member

    Dream_chaser, after reading the slew of threads you have started in the last week or so I have come to one conclusion. You really hate the time vs reward factor in mmo's. Yes you put a pretty spin on it, however, the arguements originate with a very base premise.

    As long as mmo's have a system of progression those who spend the most time in the game will have the better things. I mean it's a rule of the world, just like it happens in games it happens in life (for the most part.)

    Now, is a subscription a different form of pay 2 win? Maybe, it's certainly argueable that it is. It's also argueable that it's not, whoever can spin the prettiest words for the case can indeed make a strong point. Just like they can with cash shops. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

    In cash shop games, time is simply replaced by money. Where as in subscription games, even though every pays the same amount, time is the main currency.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    No, it's flawed..Would go further, but I have a feeling plenty have...Everyone in a sub game, that does not provide a cash shop that has more than cosmetic stuff in it, or provides more benefits that affect your power based on sub length is on equal ground...Someone may put more time into getting things, but it's no extra cost, and nothing is stopping anyone from doing it...You don't have to pay a credit card transaction to go on a raid or to loot a item.

     

    I won't debate WoW, because I can't, I only played the beta, just putting this in here in advance if anyone replies and counters with WoW, which was used by the OP.

     

     

  • EzekelEzekel Why do you need to know?, NCPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    In a Sub model, you win because you want it more than the other guy

    Simple as that. You want to be great in WoW's areans...Practice and get better, Sky's the limit.

    And if you want to be the best in GW2 you practice and get better.

    Competitive PvP in GW2 has no gear grind, gives you access to all skills and traits and you have access to it after the ten minute starting area. Everything you gain from PvPing gives you Glory which can be used to unlock new cosmetic armor and weapons but none of it has any better stats then what new comers get.

    In WoW first you have to get to level 80, and then you have to grind to get gear so you have a chance at winning. Not to mention that they have a completely seperate gear grind for both PvP and PvE so you can have max level PvE and still have no chance of winning in the arena until you grind PvP gear, and vice versa.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by Ezekel

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    In a Sub model, you win because you want it more than the other guy

    Simple as that. You want to be great in WoW's areans...Practice and get better, Sky's the limit.

    And if you want to be the best in GW2 you practice and get better.

    Competitive PvP in GW2 has no gear grind, gives you access to all skills and traits and you have access to it after the ten minute starting area. Everything you gain from PvPing gives you Glory which can be used to unlock new cosmetic armor and weapons but none of it has any better stats then what new comers get.

    In WoW first you have to get to level 80, and then you have to grind to get gear so you have a chance at winning. Not to mention that they have a completely seperate gear grind for both PvP and PvE so you can have max level PvE and still have no chance of winning in the arena until you grind PvP gear, and vice versa.

    Microtransactions not witstanding, If you want to say that the subscription model planned for GW2 is best suited for this game as opposed to the standard WoW types, and that likewise, GW2 is probably not the best example of a game that would benefit from a $15/mo pay plan, I can agree with this.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    In most sub games, because the standard model is an extremely long power grind...

    ... it's 'have a lot of spare time' 2 win.

    Basically sub games reward people who are willing to dedicate their lives tothe game.

    Some people feel that they can love a game, but have a brief schedule due to lots of RL constraints, but that they're being punished for that and would like to move some of their RL efforts to where they can catch up with people who have no lives.  So they're okay with the idea of converting RL money to catch up with people who have an excess of spare time.

    Of course the problem with that is then you can have somebody with no life who ALSO has a lot of money.

    Which is why I hate the idle rich.

    Stupid rich people with spare time.

    (Note.  I will be incredibly hypocritical if I ever win the lottery, and totally disavow I ever said any of this)

  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLPosts: 338Member

    I wouldn't say it's pay to win, because the subscription is required to play the game. Everyone has to pay it. If you don't pay it that means you're not playing the game, and you're not disadvantaged because you're not paying. You're disadvantaged because you're not playing, assuming it was a grind game. If it's not a grind game, then your only problem would be you can't access the game.

    In subscription games you get everything in the game (Except for greed riddled games like WoW). Before the age of DLC, you got everything on the disc as well in console online games.

    You can't pay more of a subscription to get a bigger advantage against someone in a P2P game.

  • zellmerzellmer Fakesville, WIPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

    Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

    Again, just a thought exercise.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

    Seriously, realize it if you're anything but outraged at the cash shop or making justifications about it...

     

  • MMOarQQMMOarQQ BoogalululuPosts: 636Member

    I'm going to pitch a concept here... a game where you log in and are immediately presented with a picture of your mother (or mother figure) and are told in a soothing voice, " You're a winner champ. Nobody is better than you. Mommy loves you".

    NO time investment required.

    NO monetary investment required.

    NO intelligence required.

    EVERYBODY WINS!

    NO ONE IS SAD!

     

    Mark my words people. THIS is the future of MMOs.

«1345678
Sign In or Register to comment.