Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there.
You are attacking the poster, first you question his thought processes (projectionism), next his motives (agression). Your first argument is not an argument (arbitraty). Only your last statement can be considered as such.
To be fair the OP called his thread "Thought Exercise"
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
I honestly feel as though the post went over the heads of some people, or... maybe it's just fans of old systems clinging so hard to the past that they want to misrepresent things on some level. Can't tell. Not relevant.
Anyway, the point is is that you pay for the privelege of paying. If someone is able to pay less, they have less of an advantage. Therefore, the person who can pay more, can play more. Thus, that person will have more of an advantage. And logically that leads us to the conclusion that the person who can pay to subscribe more often is paying to win. Because they're paying for faster progression than the other guy is.
If someone can only pay for three months out of a year, and someone can pay for the whole year, then the latter is paying for a whole year's worth of advantages. Bringing in the 'play' element is obviously semantics, because everyone is going to be playing the game anyway. So essentially, a subscription viewed in this light can be as pay-to-win as a cash shop.
Either that, or, the point I'm trying to make is what someone else said: Pay-to-win doesn't really have a definition, and it's just a buzz word people use to hate on the MMORPG they don't like. I brought up the subscription argument because I find it less ridiculous than some of the other pay-to-win arguments I've seen going around about Guild Wars 2.
Go play for any length of time on a ROM PVP server and you'll quickly find out the meaning of Pay to Win.
And no, what ANET is doing with GW2 is not anything remotely resembling that system in ROM other than they both let you spend money in the cash shop.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I don't see nothing wrong with paying to play to win and playing to win games that have no pay to win methods lol. So yea Gw 2 and an sand park game will be it for me. It is interesting about expansions if you don't buy em you can't get the next gear interesting, and then so your restricting from content while already paying, that's very interesting. Someone in the other page said that and it is interesting and amusing.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for. Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win? Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
What games are those? You mean like perfect world?
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for. Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win? Again, just a thought exercise.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS .
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
+1 to both the above. Of course,clearly they are both wrong as Anet can do no wrong regardless of anything.
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
Edit: Oh, for those who thought that this was some duplicitious, nefarious scheme orchestrated to attack their personal freedoms, do note that this was a thinking exercise. I was basically pointing out that tehre's money involved in games no matter what you do, and that people with more money will always be better off in regards to entertainment than people with less - no matter what the game.
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
most just thought you'd lost your marbles, but yes, though grind to win, isnt the same as pay to win, as i am pretty sure you already know, but.. of course you might just have been trying to be controversial, or distract people from something else.
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
How is your blind support to the latest GW2 feature set getting people to "think about something"?
If GW2 wrapped their games in baby seal pup fur you would post "Do trees think and feel? The equivalency of plants and animals" in order to justify the removal of cardboard/paper game boxes. Your motivations are not very well hidden to be honest...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
most just thought you'd lost your marbles, but yes, though grind to win, isnt the same as pay to win, as i am pretty sure you already know, but.. of course you might just have been trying to be controversial, or distract people from something else.
It's funny.
Sometimes it's just a matter of trying to get people to look at something differently in order to question their long held values.
My only point with this really is that money is always involved in games, and that's obvious. You pay money, and you eventually win. The only difference is that the deliverance of 'win' may be delayed in one case versus another. That's why I find the concept absolutely fascinating. I mean, in a subscription game, we're not using skill to win, but rather time. So we're paying and then passing time to the aforementioned deliverance of win.
I know that pay-to-win and grind-to-win aren't the same thing, but I wanted to see how much I could bend perceptions in order to make people realise how much money is involved in both. I suppose what it ultimately comes down to is this: If you spend a subscription's worth on the cash shop every month in Guild Wars 2, will you be any worse off than in a subscription-based game? That's the question.
A straight subscription means you pay a certain amount of money to unlock all access to the game, everyone is on an equal footing from the start. How much, often, or well different players play the game is entirely up to them. In other words, you still have to PLAY the game to advance, you can't just pay money to have things handed to you which is what pay to win literally means.
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
How is your blind support to the latest GW2 feature set getting people to "think about something"?
If GW2 wrapped their games in baby seal pup fur you would post "Do trees think and feel? The equivalency of plants and animals" in order to justify the removal of cardboard/paper game boxes. Your motivations are not very well hidden to be honest...
You think I have motivations beyond getting people to look at things a little bit differently.
About that, you'd be wrong. I was just being controversial in order to make people question the things they believe they know. I think that all too often we believe we have established standards and then we use those established standards to attack something new. But how different are the new approaches from our standards, really? Are we even looking at our established standards correctly?
That people think I have motivations here is fascinating.
A straight subscription means you pay a certain amount of money to unlock all access to the game, everyone is on an equal footing from the start. How much, often, or well different players play the game is entirely up to them. In other words, you still have to PLAY the game to advance, you can't just pay money to have things handed to you which is what pay to win literally means.
A straight subscription means you pay a certain amount of money to unlock all access to the game, everyone is on an equal footing from the start. How much, often, or well different players play the game is entirely up to them. In other words, you still have to PLAY the game to advance, you can't just pay money to have things handed to you which is what pay to win literally means.
Yes, but playing the game doesn't take any amount of skill. It would be like saying "Well, your delivery of 'win' is on the way, why not play Whack-a-Mole in the interim?"
Is it that different? It just seems that one has a delay on the delivery of win, and the other doesn't.
So here's an interesting question: Would people feel better if there was a time delay on cash shop items? For example 'you have to play 3 days before this item is delivered.' Something like that?
Edit: It's a shame I don't have much time to spend on these threads. Gotta scoot again, will check back later. But have a think on the above - and try to not see it as someone with insane motivations. It's just as innocent a question as it seems. If an item from a cash-shop had a play delay (by hours or days), would you feel more comfortable with the cash-shop than you were before?
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
How is your blind support to the latest GW2 feature set getting people to "think about something"?
If GW2 wrapped their games in baby seal pup fur you would post "Do trees think and feel? The equivalency of plants and animals" in order to justify the removal of cardboard/paper game boxes. Your motivations are not very well hidden to be honest...
You think I have motivations beyond getting people to look at things a little bit differently.
About that, you'd be wrong. I was just being controversial in order to make people question the things they believe they know. I think that all too often we believe we have established standards and then we use those established standards to attack something new. But how different are the new approaches from our standards, really? Are we even looking at our established standards correctly?
That people think I have motivations here is fascinating.
What is fascinating is that you actually believe people don't understand your motivations. At least remove your GW2 signature before pretending you don't have a bias here, and maybe use another account for your rabid pro-GW2 postings you have made in other threads.
Look, I have played the intellectual protagonist before as well, it is fun. But at least understand your own biases so you will be more effective at hiding your motivations if you want to appear the objective philosopher.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
A straight subscription means you pay a certain amount of money to unlock all access to the game, everyone is on an equal footing from the start. How much, often, or well different players play the game is entirely up to them. In other words, you still have to PLAY the game to advance, you can't just pay money to have things handed to you which is what pay to win literally means.
Yes, but playing the game doesn't take any amount of skill. It would be like saying "Well, your delivery of 'win' is on the way, why not play Whack-a-Mole in the interim?"
Is it that different? It just seems that one has a delay on the delivery of win, and the other doesn't.
RPGs are at their core about character advancement, therefore advancing your character is 'winning'. The standard sub model is about playing to win, regardless of if it's grinding or not. Cash shops tend to be about paying to 'win' or otherwise advance your characters, whether it be XP boosts, cosmetic items, etc, they're all forms of advancement in one way or another.
If you want to play a game where time invested has no impact on the outcome of combat, then pick up an RTS or FPS... because as I said earlier, RPGs are about character advancement.
As per claiming that current MMOs take no skill... well I praise you for your supreme skill level to which any and all gameplay is so beneath your ability that any ounce of such paltry "grinding" bores you... but you know what, some people actually enjoy the journey and not just the destination. And despite what you might think, not all MMO gameplay is brain dead easy... at least it hasn't always been, and doesn't have to be.
So here's an interesting question: Would people feel better if there was a time delay on cash shop items? For example 'you have to play 3 days before this item is delivered.' Something like that?
In short. Not really, no I wouldn't feel better about that. I think it comes down to choice. I choose not to be involved with a game that offers items beyond cosmetic or character transfer, rename, etc services. It's just MY opinion. I like quite a lot about GW2 but I personally choose to not play in a game that offers things beyond what *I* am comfortable with. If other people are comfortable with more that is GREAT! It's simply a personal desicion.
I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
Edit: Oh, for those who thought that this was some duplicitious, nefarious scheme orchestrated to attack their personal freedoms, do note that this was a thinking exercise. I was basically pointing out that tehre's money involved in games no matter what you do, and that people with more money will always be better off in regards to entertainment than people with less - no matter what the game.
There's nothing to think about. Plain subscription is not pay to win becouse you can not pay a higher subscription than another player's. It's the same fee for everybody and it does not affect your playing in any way (provided, ofc, you have payed it and you can actually play). It's crystal clear and not beeing able to see it is, simply put, beeing quite blunt.
With a fixed subscription, and provided they are not getting gold from China or similar, Onasis, Rockefeller and myself are on an even ground.
So here's an interesting question: Would people feel better if there was a time delay on cash shop items? For example 'you have to play 3 days before this item is delivered.' Something like that?
Edit: It's a shame I don't have much time to spend on these threads. Gotta scoot again, will check back later. But have a think on the above - and try to not see it as someone with insane motivations. It's just as innocent a question as it seems. If an item from a cash-shop had a play delay (by hours or days), would you feel more comfortable with the cash-shop than you were before?
No, it wouldn't.
The only way I can tolerate a cash shop in a game is if it is kept entirely cosmetic. Even then it's a very fine line for me.
Unfortunately for GW2, things are still up in the air in these regards.
So here's an interesting question: Would people feel better if there was a time delay on cash shop items? For example 'you have to play 3 days before this item is delivered.' Something like that?
Edit: It's a shame I don't have much time to spend on these threads. Gotta scoot again, will check back later. But have a think on the above - and try to not see it as someone with insane motivations. It's just as innocent a question as it seems. If an item from a cash-shop had a play delay (by hours or days), would you feel more comfortable with the cash-shop than you were before?
No, it wouldn't.
The only way I can tolerate a cash shop in a game is if it is kept entirely cosmetic. Even then it's a very fine line for me.
Unfortunately for GW2, things are still up in the air in these regards.
Even for cosmetic items, I am not ok with them if they mimic an item that you otherwise need to work for in game. Such as defeating a difficult boss or reaching a difficult achievement (like 20 PVP victories in a row). I'm ok with cosmetic items if they don't imply any form of achievement.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
However, that really isn't P2W. P2W comes from the fact that your month old player can increase his progression rate to reach or surpass the 4 month old player. The one month old playerd didn't achieve this by putting more effort (time) in that one month, but did so by increasing their progression via the cash shop.
Lol Dream you should not have ask that due to the cash shop already not being p2w because the game mechanics negate em anyway. If an level 80 buys an xp boost or a boost of any kind that all recolves around convince and not a stat difference is he going to be stronger than another level 80. No actually that applies to every aspect of the game. He just gets through his experience faster but still can't defeat you easily or at all depending on your skill. Boosters in this game just help you catch up faster but not really leave everyone else in the dust while using em. It is what it is but aye it's not a pay to win cash shop as of right now yet it will be said. Also cosmetic items are like a cooks outfit and what not as of right now. Can't wait to beta test it myself.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Comments
I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there.
You are attacking the poster, first you question his thought processes (projectionism), next his motives (agression). Your first argument is not an argument (arbitraty). Only your last statement can be considered as such.
To be fair the OP called his thread "Thought Exercise"Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Go play for any length of time on a ROM PVP server and you'll quickly find out the meaning of Pay to Win.
And no, what ANET is doing with GW2 is not anything remotely resembling that system in ROM other than they both let you spend money in the cash shop.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This..
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS
.
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
What games are those? You mean like perfect world?I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
what you are talking about would be called -
P&P2W = pay and play to win.
how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...
Hehe...I agree.
There were a lot of folks trying to act like the OP was profound and cerebral or some such...but I thought it was just silly.
Paying to have ACCESS to something is not paying to win...sorry. The logic in the post would mean that someone who pays a monthly fee for a gym is paying to win in the world of fitness because he has access to work out equipment. It's ridiculous. No matter what kind of equipment he has access to, the access itself does NOTHING to make him more fit...and that's the dividing line.
If you want to look at "P2W" in the land of fitness...look at steroids. These function very similarly to exp boosters that you buy at a CS
.
Yup, very simply put and I 100% agree.
And by the way the OP wasn't trying to be cerebral but rather duplicitous. A quite obvious attempt at diverting attention from games with pay2win cash shops and justifying how they really aren't pay2win...
+1 to both the above. Of course,clearly they are both wrong as Anet can do no wrong regardless of anything.I love what this thread has done, even if people don't agree with me.
Sometimes it's good to just get people thinking about something. And that's often my aim.
Edit: Oh, for those who thought that this was some duplicitious, nefarious scheme orchestrated to attack their personal freedoms, do note that this was a thinking exercise. I was basically pointing out that tehre's money involved in games no matter what you do, and that people with more money will always be better off in regards to entertainment than people with less - no matter what the game.
most just thought you'd lost your marbles, but yes, though grind to win, isnt the same as pay to win, as i am pretty sure you already know, but.. of course you might just have been trying to be controversial, or distract people from something else.
How is your blind support to the latest GW2 feature set getting people to "think about something"?
If GW2 wrapped their games in baby seal pup fur you would post "Do trees think and feel? The equivalency of plants and animals" in order to justify the removal of cardboard/paper game boxes. Your motivations are not very well hidden to be honest...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
It's funny.
Sometimes it's just a matter of trying to get people to look at something differently in order to question their long held values.
My only point with this really is that money is always involved in games, and that's obvious. You pay money, and you eventually win. The only difference is that the deliverance of 'win' may be delayed in one case versus another. That's why I find the concept absolutely fascinating. I mean, in a subscription game, we're not using skill to win, but rather time. So we're paying and then passing time to the aforementioned deliverance of win.
I know that pay-to-win and grind-to-win aren't the same thing, but I wanted to see how much I could bend perceptions in order to make people realise how much money is involved in both. I suppose what it ultimately comes down to is this: If you spend a subscription's worth on the cash shop every month in Guild Wars 2, will you be any worse off than in a subscription-based game? That's the question.
OP's logic is...
Well I can't comment on it since there isn't any.
A straight subscription means you pay a certain amount of money to unlock all access to the game, everyone is on an equal footing from the start. How much, often, or well different players play the game is entirely up to them. In other words, you still have to PLAY the game to advance, you can't just pay money to have things handed to you which is what pay to win literally means.
You think I have motivations beyond getting people to look at things a little bit differently.
About that, you'd be wrong. I was just being controversial in order to make people question the things they believe they know. I think that all too often we believe we have established standards and then we use those established standards to attack something new. But how different are the new approaches from our standards, really? Are we even looking at our established standards correctly?
That people think I have motivations here is fascinating.
I agree.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Yes, but playing the game doesn't take any amount of skill. It would be like saying "Well, your delivery of 'win' is on the way, why not play Whack-a-Mole in the interim?"
Is it that different? It just seems that one has a delay on the delivery of win, and the other doesn't.
So here's an interesting question: Would people feel better if there was a time delay on cash shop items? For example 'you have to play 3 days before this item is delivered.' Something like that?
Edit: It's a shame I don't have much time to spend on these threads. Gotta scoot again, will check back later. But have a think on the above - and try to not see it as someone with insane motivations. It's just as innocent a question as it seems. If an item from a cash-shop had a play delay (by hours or days), would you feel more comfortable with the cash-shop than you were before?
What is fascinating is that you actually believe people don't understand your motivations. At least remove your GW2 signature before pretending you don't have a bias here, and maybe use another account for your rabid pro-GW2 postings you have made in other threads.
Look, I have played the intellectual protagonist before as well, it is fun. But at least understand your own biases so you will be more effective at hiding your motivations if you want to appear the objective philosopher.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
RPGs are at their core about character advancement, therefore advancing your character is 'winning'. The standard sub model is about playing to win, regardless of if it's grinding or not. Cash shops tend to be about paying to 'win' or otherwise advance your characters, whether it be XP boosts, cosmetic items, etc, they're all forms of advancement in one way or another.
If you want to play a game where time invested has no impact on the outcome of combat, then pick up an RTS or FPS... because as I said earlier, RPGs are about character advancement.
As per claiming that current MMOs take no skill... well I praise you for your supreme skill level to which any and all gameplay is so beneath your ability that any ounce of such paltry "grinding" bores you... but you know what, some people actually enjoy the journey and not just the destination. And despite what you might think, not all MMO gameplay is brain dead easy... at least it hasn't always been, and doesn't have to be.
In short. Not really, no I wouldn't feel better about that. I think it comes down to choice. I choose not to be involved with a game that offers items beyond cosmetic or character transfer, rename, etc services. It's just MY opinion. I like quite a lot about GW2 but I personally choose to not play in a game that offers things beyond what *I* am comfortable with. If other people are comfortable with more that is GREAT! It's simply a personal desicion.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
There's nothing to think about. Plain subscription is not pay to win becouse you can not pay a higher subscription than another player's. It's the same fee for everybody and it does not affect your playing in any way (provided, ofc, you have payed it and you can actually play). It's crystal clear and not beeing able to see it is, simply put, beeing quite blunt.
With a fixed subscription, and provided they are not getting gold from China or similar, Onasis, Rockefeller and myself are on an even ground.
No, it wouldn't.
The only way I can tolerate a cash shop in a game is if it is kept entirely cosmetic. Even then it's a very fine line for me.
Unfortunately for GW2, things are still up in the air in these regards.
Even for cosmetic items, I am not ok with them if they mimic an item that you otherwise need to work for in game. Such as defeating a difficult boss or reaching a difficult achievement (like 20 PVP victories in a row). I'm ok with cosmetic items if they don't imply any form of achievement.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
However, that really isn't P2W. P2W comes from the fact that your month old player can increase his progression rate to reach or surpass the 4 month old player. The one month old playerd didn't achieve this by putting more effort (time) in that one month, but did so by increasing their progression via the cash shop.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.