Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.
So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.
Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.
Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.
So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.
Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.
Protip - downloading music illegally IS stealing.
I don't think it is in Sweden.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.
So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.
Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.
No all I am saying is they want a piece of that multi million dollar business
I don't think that's fair. The only smoke in this thread seems to be coming from subscription model supporters, who either don't comprehend the OP, or who do understand it, but aren't offering any reasonimg behind why time is somehow less valuable than money.
There also appears to be a huge gap in knowledge about how this game is structured, and how far cash items can actually take you.
Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I honestly feel as though the post went over the heads of some people, or... maybe it's just fans of old systems clinging so hard to the past that they want to misrepresent things on some level. Can't tell. Not relevant.
Either that, or, the point I'm trying to make is what someone else said: Pay-to-win doesn't really have a definition, and it's just a buzz word people use to hate on the MMORPG they don't like. I brought up the subscription argument because I find it less ridiculous than some of the other pay-to-win arguments I've seen going around about Guild Wars 2.
Some old games were not about winning! They were about doing whatever you wanted to do, be it sit in a cantina playing music, dancing, chatting, hanging out, etcc. Being a humble merchant running a shop, cutting out your own little niche within the big picture, selling things no one else did. These were true virtual worlds, you could have just about any objective you wanted in these games, they didn't focus just on combat or e-hardness as many later games have. They were all about having fun in your own way.
In short old players have a totally different perspective on what these games were about.
I completely agree, While I’m not technically an 'Old' player having started my addiction in only 2004. I started playing, and to this day continue to play, under this mindset, or perspective if you will. My world wasn't there to be won but to enjoy, not meaning to imply you can’t enjoy winning; merely stating enjoyment is my primary goal not some objective win condition that I would then derive enjoyment out of reaching. I played my MMO to live in a world and to- 'cut my own little niche' in it, and simply enjoy my virtual 'life' for 'life's' sake. And I can't help but feel pity, even though I realize it shallow of me, for players who couldn't and can't enjoy themselves without being the best, is it a nice feeling to be the best- yes, but I find it small and arrogant to be unable to enjoy something without the need to win win win. I understand the disappointment of having lost but I draw the line at letting that feeling control my happiness.
Book Time:
With that said I find Play-to-Win games, and the associated mindset, to be even more reprehensible; if you want to be good at something you should be good because of hard work and dedication or natural skill, not because you have a larger income. A larger amount of free time while unfair, like a larger income, is much less so as money can give you an edge (in Pay-to-Wins) that is insurmountable- the returns from buying items is fixed; a larger amount of free time simply gets you an edge faster as its returns are diminishing. All things else being equal a person with 400 hours played is only going to be negligibly better than someone with 200 hours, and until they make a game where you can get better and better to no end, and they can't, this will always hold true.
To draw it back to the topic: Is "Pay-to-Win" real or simply empty Jargon, and is P2P different in its level of 'unfairness'?
To the first part- Both, the term can be used in an objective way with meaning or simply as hate-spew in an attempt to devalue a game, although coming from someone 'hype'd about guildwars 2 I find your protestation of empty hate-spew to be funny (Although you personally seem to be clear of this vice so thank you for that) But you are correct in that "P2W" is thrown about much too carelessly. I find your way of addressing the issue to be misguided however, if that is indeed what you mean to convey as the post mearly comes off as a thinly veiled attempt to justify "P2W" while appreaing impartial. Although perhaps that is my bias as someone who dislikes "P2W", although if it is; the point of your post was to change my mind, that much is clear whether you will say so or not, and so the post is still misguided in it's approach.
To the second part- for this portion I will pull a play from the Richard Dawkins playbook, because sometimes this play is the most appropriate response: I find your argument so riddled with stupidity and logical fallacy that I refuse to address it any further than I have in my second paragraph and this brief explanation of why I feel that is an acutate description of it. It is like trying to argue that you shouldn't have to pay for a product and a service and/or arguing that one can obtain two comparable dependant variables (Skill) without some controlled, equal, variable(s) (time et al.); the independant variable being the person.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
Playing the Devils advocate; to insure that there is no pay to win....how about if instead of a monthly subscription we pay an hourly amount...
Taking this scenario...
I pay to play for 10 hours...I use up my time in one day
Another player pays for 10 hours...but that person only plays one hour per day for 10 days....
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
Earlier in this thread I posted this......This is how it all started. But the second was from an earlier post It explains what happened after it was implemented
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
As I have said before:
"Don't tell me your philosophy until I know your policy"
What he said means nothing. Just because they "believe" in it doesn't mean they won't do it.
I am not impresseed and I have seen it before.
Announcement Concerning a New Anarchy Online In-Game Store
That being said I just said "Item Store". Before anyone gets upset (probably already too late) speculating about us selling BOC or RBP in this store let me assure you that the general guidelines we set out years ago of not selling "power" for money is still very much in force. The items/services available from the store will focus on social and convenience uses only.ON
If my explanation of this in the previous thread caused any confusion I apologize as it was not my intention to deceive anyone on the subject. It is already possible to generate a great deal of this "advantage" through the expenditure of credits in-game and I'm certain we can all admit where some of these credits are coming from...this is a much more secure alternative for everyone.
Guess what?
It's 100% hands down no holds barred total P2W shop.
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
Originally posted by Theocritus
Alot of people are bashing FUncom in this thread, but I'm here to tell you that I have played AO since 2005 and haven't spent a dime yet......Yeah they may put things in the cash shop that some players feel aren't fair but you don't have to buy them......Same with AoC...You dont have to spend a dime to play....Quit blaming the companies when the fault lies with the consumers.
You are 100% correct. you do not need to spend a dime in the cash shop. But the player next to you is. He's buying Tokens and OFAB Armor.
Well, so what? Tokens are just mission points and OFAB is only best in slot for 1 to 3 pieces.
But they aren't buying them to use them, they are buying them to re-sell them ingame for hundreds of millions of credits a pop.
From there, that player will reach out and contact people like this guy
Who will be happy to take those credits the other player just traded tokens that were paid for with real Dollars/Euros
He will level the other player's character from 1 to 220 (for about 1/2 billion cr) and then equip him with every piece of NODROP best in slot raid gear in the game. Because FunCom love Loot Right sellers. Afterall, those Loot Right Sellers encourage cash shop purchases. Why else would such a broken mechanic exist in a game where up to 30 minutes after a boss dies, anyone in the game can be warped in and brought into the team and allowed to loot? For a hefty fee of course.
Don't believ me? FC outright killed 2 of the markets in the game wher eplayers can earn money prior to endgame. (S10--No more bounties and Token Guns People don't buy the guns anymore, they resell token packs)
Why did they do that? CS sales went up. Before I left, all those die hard anti cash shop players who voiced so many concerns were now all talking about how much they were personally bugeting for the cash shop.....It's just easier than farming.
This is how AO is done now. Not rare, not uncommon, but prevalent. Just look at that thread, it's one of many and there is no lack of people posting for his "service".
Good luck finding groups now too. And once Ao goes live with the instant level packs (yes, that's correct, by a buff that grants instant levels...BOOM level one to level 220 at the right click of a button.) That's going to do wonders for the people in LFT.
And let's not forget the already over priced AAA sub fee they still charge.
See IMHO it is a marketing ploy and again one which no Major dev has charged full price before, MO has what 100 people playing it? I can always go to my local gamestop and cancel my pre order if I did not like the so called beta. Here they are sucking you in charging full price for a marketing ploy, it is not a real Beta let's get serious but if you think it is ok for them to do that knock yourself out on $50. Me I stand behind my principles I did not buy ME3 because of the day 1 DLC nor will I play this due to the cash shop and BS beta scam.
Betas really aren't suppose to be about getting players to decide whether they want to buy the game or not. That's what demos and trials are for. Betas are usually about testing the game (usually the public betas being stress tests on the servers) with a larger amount of people than their QA and Testers. Preorders are to get a gauge of how many people are going to buy the game (especially Collector's Editions). Besides, GW2 also has a free beta too that requires no prepurchase.
We're going off topic a bit here.
Again I must redspectfully disagree with you, but if you think that it is ok to charge full price for a guaranteed spot in this so called beta test that is your prerogative.
Alot of people like to take out stuff and quote it out of context. GW2 just announced gems currency.
Every dick would theorycraft gens and CS which is not official yet by using assumptions and just accused Anet blatantly.
If you wanna accused someone, you need to have black and white to back it up.
As for prepurchased Anet might be thinking in this way, their fan based would definitely buy their game
no matter when the game come out.
So why not give their prepuchasing fans some cool stuff and a confirmed Beta spot.
Prepuchased is not meant for you tho cos you are not their fans.
All I read from your yeh yeh is that you just want to try their free Beta thats all.
And no I am not a Anet fanbois, its just I hate people accused someone without a black and white proof.
To me this assuming people are the piece of crap cos their poisonous assumptions can do a lot of people harm then helping.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
An alternative thought exercise: a subscription is just paying for convenience. Let's say that you pay for four moths and grind some really amazing shit. I can pay for one month out of that four and still equal your amazingness - if I quit my job, sleep a few hours a night, and don't mind my wife leaving me because I do nothing but play videogames 20 hours a day.
So paying the extra three months subscription is purely paying for convenience - the convenience of keeping my job, my wife, and my sleeping patterns. :-)
No you can't do that there is a limit in how much honor / valor you can earn for each week you need to grind all those 4 month if you want the same gear he has doesn't matter how many hour a day you play... you pay more, more gear you get, that simple.
Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play. Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.
My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game. And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY. If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
I honestly feel as though the post went over the heads of some people, or... maybe it's just fans of old systems clinging so hard to the past that they want to misrepresent things on some level. Can't tell. Not relevant.
Either that, or, the point I'm trying to make is what someone else said: Pay-to-win doesn't really have a definition, and it's just a buzz word people use to hate on the MMORPG they don't like. I brought up the subscription argument because I find it less ridiculous than some of the other pay-to-win arguments I've seen going around about Guild Wars 2.
Some old games were not about winning! They were about doing whatever you wanted to do, be it sit in a cantina playing music, dancing, chatting, hanging out, etcc. Being a humble merchant running a shop, cutting out your own little niche within the big picture, selling things no one else did. These were true virtual worlds, you could have just about any objective you wanted in these games, they didn't focus just on combat or e-hardness as many later games have. They were all about having fun in your own way.
In short old players have a totally different perspective on what these games were about.
I completely agree, While I’m not technically an 'Old' player having started my addiction in only 2004. I started playing, and to this day continue to play, under this mindset, or perspective if you will. My world wasn't there to be won but to enjoy, not meaning to imply you can’t enjoy winning; merely stating enjoyment is my primary goal not some objective win condition that I would then derive enjoyment out of reaching. I played my MMO to live in a world and to- 'cut my own little niche' in it, and simply enjoy my virtual 'life' for 'life's' sake. And I can't help but feel pity, even though I realize it shallow of me, for players who couldn't and can't enjoy themselves without being the best, is it a nice feeling to be the best- yes, but I find it small and arrogant to be unable to enjoy something without the need to win win win. I understand the disappointment of having lost but I draw the line at letting that feeling control my happiness.
So true, as an example back then (when death actually mattered in games). I didn't care about running into a crowd of leet dudes and having them Black -bar me (due to doing it over and over) as I got a nice laugh out of their posturing and leetness, this type of player has always existed, but today they prosper, due to the wider MMO market we have today. They have an over-abundance of players to piss off and that's what they're in it for. This is a human trait, not a gaming trait, they will be found in every game.
Back to my original point I started to make. That was one of my niche's (watching the leets be leet), it was highly amusing, as I tend to have a morbid curiosity about human behavior. Not to say that's why I play MMO's lol, it's just an interest of mine in general. Anywho you are so spot on in the above post, it was all about you doing what you felt like doing if all you think about is winning, that's on you.
Sorry about the formatting lol, my stuff is in yellow.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
WTF are you talking about sorry but your post made zero sense just go to their home page and look at what you get for the Pre Purchase it is in Black and white, pretty simple actually and it is in black and white.
My issue with it is no other major Dev has charged full price for a guaranteed spot in beta, has never happened, what part do you not understand, but I will link it for you ok.
Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play. Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.
My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game. And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY. If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.
game, set, match
So the answer here is to pay for playtime...like we used to do many years ago...we paid by the hour. It wasn't fun...really wasn't.
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Read all the other threads... they cover it in depth.
Originally posted by Distopia Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others.
I think the OP has a point. Traditionally, time sink MMO's have favoured those with the most time to play. They got the best gear, the highest PvP rank (anyone remember the original Gladiator gear treadmill in vanilla WoW?), the most gold, and sometimes access to content not available to those with limited time to play.
This is advantageous in MMO's because gear especially allows you a dominance in PvP over other players who may be equally skilled, but haven't invested the appropriate amounts of time. Is it fair that I have to work 8 hours, while someone else plays and out levels me, and can then unquestionably beat me in PvP?
How about if I then take the money I earned in that 8 hours, and purchase a potion that makes me level twice as fast, and I eventually catch him, and we PvP on even footing? That is somehow "not fair" because I invested money over time? My time is money, but the lines are becoming more blurred between the virtual and the real.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play. Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.
My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game. And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY. If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.
game, set, match
EXCEPT...
If you have 2 people that are both playing, you can gain more power if you play more than the other person. That's the OP's original point. The imbalance simply revolves around time invested instead of money invested. I think you may have missed the OP's point.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.
Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?
Again, just a thought exercise.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others.
I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there. My point wasn't about whether it effects others it's about how progression is nothing but a reward for time spent. You will never get anywhere in an RPG without spending time. The reward is all about how much time you spend, that is progression in a nutshell, Sub model or revenue stream has nothing at all to do with that.
Think about this, what is Anets chief message on RMT?
Is it not, nothing will give an advantage over time? Meaning progression is the reward for time spent?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
Comments
Protip - downloading music illegally IS stealing.
I don't think it is in Sweden.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No all I am saying is they want a piece of that multi million dollar business
Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
@Distopia
I completely agree, While I’m not technically an 'Old' player having started my addiction in only 2004. I started playing, and to this day continue to play, under this mindset, or perspective if you will. My world wasn't there to be won but to enjoy, not meaning to imply you can’t enjoy winning; merely stating enjoyment is my primary goal not some objective win condition that I would then derive enjoyment out of reaching. I played my MMO to live in a world and to- 'cut my own little niche' in it, and simply enjoy my virtual 'life' for 'life's' sake. And I can't help but feel pity, even though I realize it shallow of me, for players who couldn't and can't enjoy themselves without being the best, is it a nice feeling to be the best- yes, but I find it small and arrogant to be unable to enjoy something without the need to win win win. I understand the disappointment of having lost but I draw the line at letting that feeling control my happiness.
Book Time:
With that said I find Play-to-Win games, and the associated mindset, to be even more reprehensible; if you want to be good at something you should be good because of hard work and dedication or natural skill, not because you have a larger income. A larger amount of free time while unfair, like a larger income, is much less so as money can give you an edge (in Pay-to-Wins) that is insurmountable- the returns from buying items is fixed; a larger amount of free time simply gets you an edge faster as its returns are diminishing. All things else being equal a person with 400 hours played is only going to be negligibly better than someone with 200 hours, and until they make a game where you can get better and better to no end, and they can't, this will always hold true.
To draw it back to the topic: Is "Pay-to-Win" real or simply empty Jargon, and is P2P different in its level of 'unfairness'?
To the first part- Both, the term can be used in an objective way with meaning or simply as hate-spew in an attempt to devalue a game, although coming from someone 'hype'd about guildwars 2 I find your protestation of empty hate-spew to be funny (Although you personally seem to be clear of this vice so thank you for that) But you are correct in that "P2W" is thrown about much too carelessly. I find your way of addressing the issue to be misguided however, if that is indeed what you mean to convey as the post mearly comes off as a thinly veiled attempt to justify "P2W" while appreaing impartial. Although perhaps that is my bias as someone who dislikes "P2W", although if it is; the point of your post was to change my mind, that much is clear whether you will say so or not, and so the post is still misguided in it's approach.
To the second part- for this portion I will pull a play from the Richard Dawkins playbook, because sometimes this play is the most appropriate response: I find your argument so riddled with stupidity and logical fallacy that I refuse to address it any further than I have in my second paragraph and this brief explanation of why I feel that is an acutate description of it. It is like trying to argue that you shouldn't have to pay for a product and a service and/or arguing that one can obtain two comparable dependant variables (Skill) without some controlled, equal, variable(s) (time et al.); the independant variable being the person.
Playing the Devils advocate; to insure that there is no pay to win....how about if instead of a monthly subscription we pay an hourly amount...
Taking this scenario...
I pay to play for 10 hours...I use up my time in one day
Another player pays for 10 hours...but that person only plays one hour per day for 10 days....
Is this the type of equity you all want?
ugh.
I have been exceptionally vocal against the shop in GW2.
I have come under a lot of fire for it, but I have my reasons. I don't want to see what happened in my last game happen again.
Please understand, I am trying to make sure this game is and stays awsome.
And burrying our heads in the sand and making excuses for ANet won't work.
The following was cut from a thread where a similar conversation took place, but it explains my POV clearly and why I am so vocal.
[Pasted from other threads]
Earlier in this thread I posted this......This is how it all started. But the second was from an earlier post It explains what happened after it was implemented
Alot of people like to take out stuff and quote it out of context. GW2 just announced gems currency.
Every dick would theorycraft gens and CS which is not official yet by using assumptions and just accused Anet blatantly.
If you wanna accused someone, you need to have black and white to back it up.
As for prepurchased Anet might be thinking in this way, their fan based would definitely buy their game
no matter when the game come out.
So why not give their prepuchasing fans some cool stuff and a confirmed Beta spot.
Prepuchased is not meant for you tho cos you are not their fans.
All I read from your yeh yeh is that you just want to try their free Beta thats all.
And no I am not a Anet fanbois, its just I hate people accused someone without a black and white proof.
To me this assuming people are the piece of crap cos their poisonous assumptions can do a lot of people harm then helping.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
You sure have. You treat it like other companies that DO have bad cash shops. Even when Anet has a track record of a cash shop that doesn't imbalance gameplay.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
No you can't do that there is a limit in how much honor / valor you can earn for each week you need to grind all those 4 month if you want the same gear he has doesn't matter how many hour a day you play... you pay more, more gear you get, that simple.
game, set, match
Yes, you are right....But why is it OK?
They have already deviated from that model.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
WTF are you talking about sorry but your post made zero sense just go to their home page and look at what you get for the Pre Purchase it is in Black and white, pretty simple actually and it is in black and white.
My issue with it is no other major Dev has charged full price for a guaranteed spot in beta, has never happened, what part do you not understand, but I will link it for you ok.
https://buy.guildwars2.com/collectors-edition/
So the answer here is to pay for playtime...like we used to do many years ago...we paid by the hour. It wasn't fun...really wasn't.
Read all the other threads... they cover it in depth.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others.
I think the OP has a point. Traditionally, time sink MMO's have favoured those with the most time to play. They got the best gear, the highest PvP rank (anyone remember the original Gladiator gear treadmill in vanilla WoW?), the most gold, and sometimes access to content not available to those with limited time to play.
This is advantageous in MMO's because gear especially allows you a dominance in PvP over other players who may be equally skilled, but haven't invested the appropriate amounts of time. Is it fair that I have to work 8 hours, while someone else plays and out levels me, and can then unquestionably beat me in PvP?
How about if I then take the money I earned in that 8 hours, and purchase a potion that makes me level twice as fast, and I eventually catch him, and we PvP on even footing? That is somehow "not fair" because I invested money over time? My time is money, but the lines are becoming more blurred between the virtual and the real.
Because for whatever reason a ANET can do no wrong, just like Bioware before SWTOR but worse now.
No, not even close.
If you want to, using your suedo-logic, to imply that a subscription is actually a forced pay-to-win then keep riding that unicorn. There is no advantage one subscriber has over another.
Subscription = Pay to play.
Pay to Win = Buying a grey shitty sword in Stormwind, running outside and rocking a boar that's 80 levels lower than you. The ultimate power.
EXCEPT...
If you have 2 people that are both playing, you can gain more power if you play more than the other person. That's the OP's original point. The imbalance simply revolves around time invested instead of money invested. I think you may have missed the OP's point.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
But what I don't understand is, this is not unique, Yes, FunCom is an exception. they are infamous in the industry, But NCSoft is also. Are they not exerting a big influence on how this shop is to be run?
I just don't understand how someoen can read that post.....Assuming you believe what i said there and not think...wait a minute. I don't want that in my game.
Sure there is...
If player 1 plays 40 hours a week and player 2 can only play for 10 hours...there is a big difference.
Player 1 should pay four times what player 2 pays to make them equal. Otherwise player 1 is cheating player 2 by getting more for his money.
I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there. My point wasn't about whether it effects others it's about how progression is nothing but a reward for time spent. You will never get anywhere in an RPG without spending time. The reward is all about how much time you spend, that is progression in a nutshell, Sub model or revenue stream has nothing at all to do with that.
Think about this, what is Anets chief message on RMT?
Is it not, nothing will give an advantage over time? Meaning progression is the reward for time spent?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am sure NCSoft is without a doubt behind this.