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Is Hype Is A MMO's Worst Enemy?

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  • RefMinorRefMinor Member UncommonPosts: 3,452
    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by Zekiah
    What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

    subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

    Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    image

     

    This is very true, look at CCP, the client costs a €5 and they don't charge for expansions, all the Dev incentive is to make a game it's audience want to stay subbed to.
  • ZekiahZekiah Member UncommonPosts: 2,483

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

    subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

    Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    image

     

    This is very true, look at CCP, the client costs a €5 and they don't charge for expansions, all the Dev incentive is to make a game it's audience want to stay subbed to.

    Exactly. They chose a long-term model full of open-ended content.

    Hmm, design a game around the theory of pleasing the customer instead of the suits. Imagine that. How "innovative". image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    I think it migth be done on purpose to increase box sales without being to concerned about keeping customers.

    I agree.  Most of us see MMORPGs as a service industry.  Distributors / Publishers see MMORPGs as a flash revenue stream from box sales.  It makes tons and tons of money.

    After release, limp along as long as it can.  Do a Free to Play conversion (screwing everyone who paid for the game) and then milk the whales who spend hundreds on cash shop items.    That too makes tons of money.

     

    I think this is the new norm.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • SythionSythion Member Posts: 422

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    image

    Thank you for the gentle serve.

    Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

    You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

    Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

    The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

    It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

    But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    image

    Thank you for the gentle serve.

    Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

    You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

    Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

    The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

    It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

    But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

    ok for the sake of debate lets flip the entire argument.

    if its not a conspiracy  then WTF are they thinking? at least the theory grants the developers with half a brain otherwise I really dont get it.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • ZekiahZekiah Member UncommonPosts: 2,483

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    image

    Thank you for the gentle serve.

    Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

    Basically, yes. Their goal, as corporate beasts, is to put in the least amount of effort for the most amount of money. The problem with SWTOR is, the foundation of their game is bad and they spent most of their money on the wrong areas.

    You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

    Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

    Yeah, they kinda goofed now, didn't they? They blew their wad mostly on one-time content and are left with a dead/lifeless world full of half-a$$ systems like space on rails, crafting etc. Now they're in a pickle and I'm guessing they're scrambling to:

    A) Throw out as much one-time content as possible to string gamers along

    B) Give in to whiners over any/everything they can 

    C) Hope and pray enough suckers hang around until they throw out something half-worthy

    No matter what they do, they're in a bit of trouble on this one. They got cocky and overshot, gamers are starting to wake up to what's going on.

    The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

    Nope, sorry. If they wanted what I want, they wouldn't be half-a$$ing everything. Space on rails? Really? Stationary NPCs that pretend to be fighting? No swimming? Dead, lifeless worlds with no ambiance? Linear questing/world content where you get smacked down if you want to deviate? Nope, not what I want at all, it's what they want us to want. Not gonna happen.

    It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

    So, you agree they're doing that then?

    But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

    No tin hat needed here, just simple observation of recent history. I would however like to inquire as to where you purchased those rose-colored specs though.

    image

    Above in red.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Member Posts: 731


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Zekiah
    Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.
    If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.
    But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.
    Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.
    Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.
    This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

    Thank you for the gentle serve.
    Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.
    You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.
    Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.
    The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.
    It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...
    But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.


    ok for the sake of debate lets flip the entire argument.
    if its not a conspiracy  then WTF are they thinking? at least the theory grants the developers with half a brain otherwise I really dont get it.

    You know, I was actually leaning towards the conspiracy theory at 1st, but then your comment about developers with half a brain and you know what?
    All kidding aside, I really think the devs did in fact NOT use their brains. THey chrged blindly into a project with no regard banking on (WoW Clone)+ (SW IP)=$$$$$$

    If you break down the game, it has nothing a successful MMO should have. It separates players from each other at every turn. It tells you your own story....but has an ending. It's like they tried to make a hybrid with what they did well SPRPG with what the best selling MMOs did well and marry them. But the SPRPG functions they build are inherently running in contention with what is the MM of the MMO. It's like they tried to combine the front halves of 2 FWD cars together as a hybrid. Yeah sure, if functions, but it's not really going to go anywhere.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

     




     

    You know, I was actually leaning towards the conspiracy theory at 1st, but then your comment about developers with half a brain and you know what?

    All kidding aside, I really think the devs did in fact NOT use their brains. THey chrged blindly into a project with no regard banking on (WoW Clone)+ (SW IP)=$$$$$$

    If you break down the game, it has nothing a successful MMO should have. It separates players from each other at every turn. It tells you your own story....but has an ending. It's like they tried to make a hybrid with what they did well SPRPG with what the best selling MMOs did well and marry them. But the SPRPG functions they build are inherently running in contention with what is the MM of the MMO. It's like they tried to combine the front halves of 2 FWD cars together as a hybrid. Yeah sure, if functions, but it's not really going to go anywhere.

    BUT, the key word here is IT. we really arent talking about one game, we are talking about several. So as I see it there is really only 3 possible stories here.

    1. conspiracy

    2. dev companies have no brains

    3. people actually do like those games and they are making money.

    The only one I take comfort in is number 1 but it very well could be number 3

     

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SythionSythion Member Posts: 422

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Nope, sorry. If they wanted what I want, they wouldn't be half-a$$ing everything. Space on rails? Really? ...

    So the most expensive game every made is half-a$$ing everything?

    Wow... maybe they should have invested $500 million instead!

    I'm sure investing half a billion dollars trying to appease you is just as financially viable as mimicking the general game design of the most successful and profitable game in history, and adding a bit extra features to appeal to a new set of consumers. For making that choice, they are obviously incompetent.

     

    image
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Sythion

    LoL sells XP potions.

    But XP barely matters in LoL.

    If you compare the power difference between a max and min level character in LoL, that's about 1 level in a MMORPG.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Member UncommonPosts: 793

    The worst enemy is bad design/implementation. Hype is just the sidekick to that villain!

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

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