There's a reason why WOW is the standard for MMOs and UO and EQ are just footnotes.
Because most gamers are easily fooled by heavily pre-scripted game mechanics that are designed for players to ultimately win in the end.
Completing a raid that countless tens if not hundreds of thousands of player have finished is not epic, despite how many times NPCs parrot it, and no matter how much purple text is thrown at you in loot windows.
Epic is a feeling, a subjective emotion tied to the enjoyment of an experience and the trill of it etc.
Who are you to define what others believe is epic or not?
Let me re-iterate...
Themepark games are generally tailored to make players feel like the hero by performing heroic deeds.
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. So Alliance held a meaningless raid on the crossroads and the Horde kicked them out of the zone? Ok... and? What did either side gain from the battle, other than keeping low level players from being able to complete their quests for a little while?
Not meaning to bash your story or anything, but battles like these in UO actually meant something and had consequences within the game world. I appologize if I don't share the same opinion with you when it comes to WoW's "epic" moments.
If you haven't participated in such scuffles I wouldn't expect you to know how much fun it is just to PVP in the world and push people back to arbitrary towns for one reason: It was FUN! You didn't need an objective or material reward. It was just a fun tug of war that all levels could participate in and have a good time. That's all it was, was fun.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. So Alliance held a meaningless raid on the crossroads and the Horde kicked them out of the zone? Ok... and? What did either side gain from the battle, other than keeping low level players from being able to complete their quests for a little while?
Not meaning to bash your story or anything, but battles like these in UO actually meant something and had consequences within the game world. I appologize if I don't share the same opinion with you when it comes to WoW's "epic" moments.
If you haven't participated in such scuffles I wouldn't expect you to know how much fun it is just to PVP in the world and push people back to arbitrary towns for one reason: It was FUN! You didn't need an objective or material reward. It was just a fun tug of war that all levels could participate in and have a good time. That's all it was, was fun.
Stuff like this used to happen all the time in Vanilla WoW. Its one of the things that made it at least somewhat enjoyable, even to an EQ fan like myself. Sadly, this doesn't happen anymore. Not on such a large scale, anyway. Players blow through levels at such a ridiculous rate, that those zones are largely uninhabited these days. Even the infamous "Barrens Chat" isnt what it used to be.
Nice OP. Reminded me of similar skirmishes between Tarren Mill and South Shore (i believe it was). In the big picture, these didn't change the game landscape or have a persistent effect beyond community building (or tearing down :P) on the realm forums and such. For players who participated, the old PvP ranking system was of some value as you could really get your honorable kills up and you actually had to watch out for dishonorable kills (if you were working on rank and such). And honestly, the World PvP was a nice alternative to multi-hour AV maches...There is some irony though. It seems one complaint about WoW's current state is that World PvP is severly diminished/quaranteened, however, when someone posts about the old World PvP, that get's belittled as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't right?
Having played a number of other games, I felt more when losing in SWG and EvE, but that doesn't mean WoW didn't have its own flavor of enjoyment. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
At any rate, thanks for the post OP (whether tongue-in-cheek or not) from a humble Knight-Lieutenant :P
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I agree, Crossroads had some fun times, lots of warring going on there while I was playing the game, and Tarren Mill/Southshore in HIllsbrad was even better back in the day, but no one really does a lot there anymore.
It picked up a bit when Cata came out 'cause there are some quests that lead you to the enemy town, but it didn't last long.
There's a reason why WOW is the standard for MMOs and UO and EQ are just footnotes.
Because most gamers are easily fooled by heavily pre-scripted game mechanics that are designed for players to ultimately win in the end.
Completing a raid that countless tens if not hundreds of thousands of player have finished is not epic, despite how many times NPCs parrot it, and no matter how much purple text is thrown at you in loot windows.
Epic is a feeling, a subjective emotion tied to the enjoyment of an experience and the trill of it etc.
Who are you to define what others believe is epic or not?
Let me re-iterate...
Themepark games are generally tailored to make players feel like the hero by performing heroic deeds.
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
One huge assumption.. they gauge their heroic'ness on other players... a lot of people don't. BTW I'm not going to copy the definition of heroic.... but I'm fairly certain that commonality has nothing to do with it.
Going above and beyond the call of duty.. sure but this is a video game and the player decides that.
What did either side gain from the battle, other than keeping low level players from being able to complete their quests for a little while?
Not meaning to bash your story or anything, but battles like these in UO actually meant something and had consequences within the game world.
In UO what did these battles actually mean? At the end of the day, week, month, year...etc? Exactly what did they mean? I always love reading stuff like this where people say something in a game actually meant something over things that occured in another game for some other player.
All these games mentioned are the same, they are all games that are played for fun. Some people find/found others more fun then others. I personally didn't care for UO, got in early EQ beta and enjoyed it immensily for the next few years along with some other MMORPGS between then and now. WoW was enjoyable for a short period (30-45 days after release) and then it was no longer fun for me personally.
I can think of a lot of fun and memorable moments in every game I've played, but I can't honestly think that one of them had any real meaning. I've played every game to have fun, whether it was going on a corpse raid in EQ, being in the raid that killed the very first dragon in EQ, losing the city my guild spent months builing in Shadowbane or taking some other guilds city in the same game...etc. It was all fun, I would log out enjoying my day playing a game, but that was all it's every been.
Themepark games are generally tailored to make players feel like the hero by performing heroic deeds.
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
You can't quantify a feeling for anyone but yourself. What you find epic another might not, no matter the 'grand scheme' of things. Another interpretation of things (yours).
Even if everyone is given the same scenario, we still play within our bubble of experience, we don't experience everyone's journey simultaneously so cannot use it as comparison. Only the 'story' shared to us by the game at that precise moment can we gauge its appeal and epicness.
even at a low level, at level 10, just in the cross roads, questing in the barrens, NPC was like you gotta collect 12 bird beaks, I was like DAMNIT, and grinding and questing these birds, I heard the drums of war go off, alliance attacking cross roads, they was every where, I was like aw naw son, aw naw. Even at level 10 I knew I couldnt do much, but whats this? Not just level 60s, not just level 50s, but players of all levels from 10 to 60 attacking the cross roads, knowing the Xroads was a loss cause and running for my life in the distance I saw THE HORDE and not just players but THE HORDE, a whole raid coming in defense of the cross roads, all levels, all races, all classes.
It was a brutal war,as I watched from the hills and the sidelines, AOE was every where, bodies every where, the alliance being pushed back from the X-roads to astrannar, thats when the most epic war occured, lasting for hours on end, Astrannar vs Splintertree Post, pushing the alliance back to astrannar, thinking we won, a raid was coming behind us, as my hunter was picking off the level 10s and 12s to the sideline, we soon became fully surrounded by all sides, even though we lost at the end, even though we all died, even though we were all surrounded we did not go down with out a fight, we did not give up, we shown that day the power of the horde on that server was feirce.
Original point aside I’m curious as to why so many people feel that there has to be a reward or gain at the end of an event to make it “epic”? I could buy “worthwhile”, but “epic”? Not a single one of my most favorite MMO memories involve any type of reward, especially not the PvP ones.
I personally think that this attitude is somewhat detrimental to modern MMO environments. People aren’t willing to do things just for the “fun” of it or for the experience anymore, there needs to be a reward, and unless that is done right (as in DAoC) this often results in much more scripted experience due to players playing to maximize reward output instead of playing for the fun of it. Early WHO was a good example of this, where the opposing factions would just trade OW-PVP objectives as opposed to fight for them.
To tie back to OP’s post. I don’t’ know if I’d say that any of my most “epic” MMO memories came from WoW, but I sure as hell enjoyed what little OW PVP there was (such as the Barrens and Hillsbrad raids that he mentions) a lot more than the arena and bg pvp that replaced it.
Something the OP reminded me I still had, one of the few times in EQ I did have fun. We spent about 30-45 minutes before we started to get overran so we hit the docks. The best part was waiting for the next boat full of horde to show up, literally dropped them all in about 30 seconds.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. So Alliance held a meaningless raid on the crossroads and the Horde kicked them out of the zone? Ok... and? What did either side gain from the battle, other than keeping low level players from being able to complete their quests for a little while?
Not meaning to bash your story or anything, but battles like these in UO actually meant something and had consequences within the game world. I appologize if I don't share the same opinion with you when it comes to WoW's "epic" moments.
let me make a wild guess. They were... fun? to people who participated? heck they were even interesting enough for a lvl 10 newbie who ran away, that he made a topic about it.
Fun. why is it bad if youre just having fun, and not getting any leet medals of leetness, for your time spent having fun? wasnt that rewarding enough?
since when is it a must for every single moment spent in a game to be closely tied to some sort of character advancement? Or even have 'consequences within the game world', as you put it.
tldr: it WAS his epic moment, it was epic moment for many people who participated in such a raid. And it did have consequences too. Newbies, some scared and terrified would run away screaming, while others would join and try to push the attacking force back. Every newbie (and vet) was in fact affected by such an event, and many of them had fun doing it. It was their epic moment.
Even if it doesnt fit your description of 'your own' epic moments, it doesnt mean it was not 'epic' to some other people.
I couldn't agree more. I don't need carrots and incentives to have fun in a game. I don't need the game to give meaning to every single thing I do. But the sandbox fanbois need meaning for everything they do yet they criticise item treadmills. They can't simply have fun, it seems.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
even at a low level, at level 10, just in the cross roads, questing in the barrens, NPC was like you gotta collect 12 bird beaks, I was like DAMNIT, and grinding and questing these birds, I heard the drums of war go off, alliance attacking cross roads, they was every where, I was like aw naw son, aw naw. Even at level 10 I knew I couldnt do much, but whats this? Not just level 60s, not just level 50s, but players of all levels from 10 to 60 attacking the cross roads, knowing the Xroads was a loss cause and running for my life in the distance I saw THE HORDE and not just players but THE HORDE, a whole raid coming in defense of the cross roads, all levels, all races, all classes.
It was a brutal war,as I watched from the hills and the sidelines, AOE was every where, bodies every where, the alliance being pushed back from the X-roads to astrannar, thats when the most epic war occured, lasting for hours on end, Astrannar vs Splintertree Post, pushing the alliance back to astrannar, thinking we won, a raid was coming behind us, as my hunter was picking off the level 10s and 12s to the sideline, we soon became fully surrounded by all sides, even though we lost at the end, even though we all died, even though we were all surrounded we did not go down with out a fight, we did not give up, we shown that day the power of the horde on that server was feirce.
Should have played UO, stuff like this was a constant minus the kill x birds for my Blue Socks of Doom thing. Many younger people have WoW as there UO. It is what it is.
Should have played UO, stuff like this was a constant minus the kill x birds for my Blue Socks of Doom thing. Many younger people have WoW as there UO. It is what it is.
I did play UO and no.
before Trammel? Because he is right.
PvP in Felucca was a lot better after Trammel.
Factions!
More people + everyone fairly "even" due to "leveling" in Trammel + more purpose to PvP (capture/control) = Win, Win, Win
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
Games, like all other enteratinment, are illusions. If they can sell the illusion that you are a hero . that is enough.
In fact, it is silly to claim anything "real" associated with a VIDEO GAME. You think you are a real hero if you play a harsher game?
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
Games, like all other enteratinment, are illusions. If they can sell the illusion that you are a hero . that is enough.
In fact, it is silly to claim anything "real" associated with a VIDEO GAME. You think you are a real hero if you play a harsher game?
A harsher game creates what many consider a better, or more plausible, illusion of heroicness.
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
Games, like all other enteratinment, are illusions. If they can sell the illusion that you are a hero . that is enough.
In fact, it is silly to claim anything "real" associated with a VIDEO GAME. You think you are a real hero if you play a harsher game?
I can only speak for myself when I say that the idea the mainstream as feed us that the reason we play is so that we can have a heroic lifestyle that we lack in real life is down right insanity. again speaking for myself.
For me the game is purely exploring, mechanics, challenge, I dont care if I am a knight or a poor begger in the game itself and a raise at work isnt going to change my love of games.
sorry for the rant
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I actually feel sorry for the players whos first MMO was WoW, seriously, all kidding aside I feel for them.
These people were cheated, robbed of thier innocence, I wish I could ease thier pain, if only there were some way!
My first MMO was UO and that was great. My second MMO was EQ and that was terrible. My third MMO was WoW and that was great.
Point is EQ is overrated and it is just meh. I feel sorry for people who's first MMO was EQ and they praise it till this very day. It was a mediocre grindy game and WoW did it much better.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Comments
Let me re-iterate...
Themepark games are generally tailored to make players feel like the hero by performing heroic deeds.
The problem with that, is that the definition of being a hero means that one performs well above and beyond the expectations of themselves and their peers. Yet this is paradoxal because when everyone is performing "heroic deeds", then no one is actually a hero.
Themepark games may be great at presenting scenarios to players that make it seem like they're special little snowflakes performing impossible feats... but the reality is they're just jumping through the same hoops as everyone else in a system rigged for them to win. So even though some players might get an epic feeling from certain gameplay elements, in msot cases when taken in context in the grand scheme they're not doing anything special compared to most other gamers.
If you haven't participated in such scuffles I wouldn't expect you to know how much fun it is just to PVP in the world and push people back to arbitrary towns for one reason: It was FUN! You didn't need an objective or material reward. It was just a fun tug of war that all levels could participate in and have a good time. That's all it was, was fun.
TheNewGuy: Ultima Online (Catskills)
You've used entirely too many commas. Did you breathe at all while typing that?
I agree, it goes on an epic downhill journey from that point on though.Stuff like this used to happen all the time in Vanilla WoW. Its one of the things that made it at least somewhat enjoyable, even to an EQ fan like myself. Sadly, this doesn't happen anymore. Not on such a large scale, anyway. Players blow through levels at such a ridiculous rate, that those zones are largely uninhabited these days. Even the infamous "Barrens Chat" isnt what it used to be.
Nice OP. Reminded me of similar skirmishes between Tarren Mill and South Shore (i believe it was). In the big picture, these didn't change the game landscape or have a persistent effect beyond community building (or tearing down :P) on the realm forums and such. For players who participated, the old PvP ranking system was of some value as you could really get your honorable kills up and you actually had to watch out for dishonorable kills (if you were working on rank and such). And honestly, the World PvP was a nice alternative to multi-hour AV maches...There is some irony though. It seems one complaint about WoW's current state is that World PvP is severly diminished/quaranteened, however, when someone posts about the old World PvP, that get's belittled as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't right?
Having played a number of other games, I felt more when losing in SWG and EvE, but that doesn't mean WoW didn't have its own flavor of enjoyment. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
At any rate, thanks for the post OP (whether tongue-in-cheek or not) from a humble Knight-Lieutenant :P
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
@OP
I agree, Crossroads had some fun times, lots of warring going on there while I was playing the game, and Tarren Mill/Southshore in HIllsbrad was even better back in the day, but no one really does a lot there anymore.
It picked up a bit when Cata came out 'cause there are some quests that lead you to the enemy town, but it didn't last long.
One huge assumption.. they gauge their heroic'ness on other players... a lot of people don't. BTW I'm not going to copy the definition of heroic.... but I'm fairly certain that commonality has nothing to do with it.
Going above and beyond the call of duty.. sure but this is a video game and the player decides that.
On topic: As much as it rubs people on these forums the wrong way.. the OP's premise is correct.
WoW had many really epic moments... a few still, but most were early on.
First one for me? - entering Darnassus for the first time.
AW NAW SON!
In UO what did these battles actually mean? At the end of the day, week, month, year...etc? Exactly what did they mean? I always love reading stuff like this where people say something in a game actually meant something over things that occured in another game for some other player.
All these games mentioned are the same, they are all games that are played for fun. Some people find/found others more fun then others. I personally didn't care for UO, got in early EQ beta and enjoyed it immensily for the next few years along with some other MMORPGS between then and now. WoW was enjoyable for a short period (30-45 days after release) and then it was no longer fun for me personally.
I can think of a lot of fun and memorable moments in every game I've played, but I can't honestly think that one of them had any real meaning. I've played every game to have fun, whether it was going on a corpse raid in EQ, being in the raid that killed the very first dragon in EQ, losing the city my guild spent months builing in Shadowbane or taking some other guilds city in the same game...etc. It was all fun, I would log out enjoying my day playing a game, but that was all it's every been.
You can't quantify a feeling for anyone but yourself. What you find epic another might not, no matter the 'grand scheme' of things. Another interpretation of things (yours).
Even if everyone is given the same scenario, we still play within our bubble of experience, we don't experience everyone's journey simultaneously so cannot use it as comparison. Only the 'story' shared to us by the game at that precise moment can we gauge its appeal and epicness.
Skater Gnome, is that you??
Original point aside I’m curious as to why so many people feel that there has to be a reward or gain at the end of an event to make it “epic”? I could buy “worthwhile”, but “epic”? Not a single one of my most favorite MMO memories involve any type of reward, especially not the PvP ones.
I personally think that this attitude is somewhat detrimental to modern MMO environments. People aren’t willing to do things just for the “fun” of it or for the experience anymore, there needs to be a reward, and unless that is done right (as in DAoC) this often results in much more scripted experience due to players playing to maximize reward output instead of playing for the fun of it. Early WHO was a good example of this, where the opposing factions would just trade OW-PVP objectives as opposed to fight for them.
To tie back to OP’s post. I don’t’ know if I’d say that any of my most “epic” MMO memories came from WoW, but I sure as hell enjoyed what little OW PVP there was (such as the Barrens and Hillsbrad raids that he mentions) a lot more than the arena and bg pvp that replaced it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjqQILRsKQ
Something the OP reminded me I still had, one of the few times in EQ I did have fun. We spent about 30-45 minutes before we started to get overran so we hit the docks. The best part was waiting for the next boat full of horde to show up, literally dropped them all in about 30 seconds.
I couldn't agree more. I don't need carrots and incentives to have fun in a game. I don't need the game to give meaning to every single thing I do. But the sandbox fanbois need meaning for everything they do yet they criticise item treadmills. They can't simply have fun, it seems.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
before Trammel? Because he is right.
Funny, I experienced exactly the same problem
There must be something wrong with us...............
PvP in Felucca was a lot better after Trammel.
Factions!
More people + everyone fairly "even" due to "leveling" in Trammel + more purpose to PvP (capture/control) = Win, Win, Win
Games, like all other enteratinment, are illusions. If they can sell the illusion that you are a hero . that is enough.
In fact, it is silly to claim anything "real" associated with a VIDEO GAME. You think you are a real hero if you play a harsher game?
A harsher game creates what many consider a better, or more plausible, illusion of heroicness.
I actually feel sorry for the players whos first MMO was WoW, seriously, all kidding aside I feel for them.
These people were cheated, robbed of thier innocence, I wish I could ease thier pain, if only there were some way!
No offence but crossroad raiding/defending while it being fun was never even remotely epic to me.
Sieges on Lineage2 or aoc .. now thats a different story heck.
Even battlegrounds on aoc had epic moments like these (mostly epic fail for the opposint team) (just look at the kills)
I can only speak for myself when I say that the idea the mainstream as feed us that the reason we play is so that we can have a heroic lifestyle that we lack in real life is down right insanity. again speaking for myself.
For me the game is purely exploring, mechanics, challenge, I dont care if I am a knight or a poor begger in the game itself and a raise at work isnt going to change my love of games.
sorry for the rant
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
My first MMO was UO and that was great. My second MMO was EQ and that was terrible. My third MMO was WoW and that was great.
Point is EQ is overrated and it is just meh. I feel sorry for people who's first MMO was EQ and they praise it till this very day. It was a mediocre grindy game and WoW did it much better.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.