I would say alot of folks complained enough that some classes were op'ed and in come the nerf's. Happens every game some sooner then later.
Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVP whiners. That or make skills that are PVP specific so that the nerf hammer doesn't affect players who don't PVP.
Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVE whiners.
The sheer volume of changes & their severity means they did a piss-poor job of balance for launch, I'm not convinced that's the case.
The way I see it is that content was criticised as being too easy, they decided to change their design philosophy & tighten up the content & make it much harder, these raft of balance changes indicate a bigger change in direction of the game than the developers are communicating to the players.
This kind of "setting the difficulty" is something that should have been decided upon pre-launch & during the beta phase, to push through a radical change of direction so early, when the game is bleeding out subs left & right is a huge gamble, it will either save the game's integrity or be the final nail in the coffin, but what is certain is that an awful lot of players are going to get really pissed off & are being told to swallow it.
I'm pretty certain they will regret this change of direction at this stage, I think it will backfire & while they think they are saving the game who will it be they will save it for? A tiny niche is who. They did not get the success they were after, this won't get it them either, simple truth is they wasted too much money on voicing every tiny little quest & did not invest enough in the endgame content that retains players, they banked on players recycling content playing alts, they have some of that, but the bigger audience was not interested in that.
Time will tell if they are shooting themselves in the foot or not, but I think they are.
I would say alot of folks complained enough that some classes were op'ed and in come the nerf's. Happens every game some sooner then later.
Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVP whiners. That or make skills that are PVP specific so that the nerf hammer doesn't affect players who don't PVP.
Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVE whiners.
PVE players aren't notorious for demanding nerfs. If devs ever caved in to PVE whiners there wouldn't be nerfs in the first place. So I'll take the PVE whiners any day over the whining PVPers who don't like to lose.
Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).
If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.
BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P
Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).
If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.
BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P
Using my class, trooper, as an example, 1.2 was a classic example of what not to do. Trooper needed changes, but only thanks to bioware own incompetence. They made the gunner tree revolve around grav shot and if they wanted to change that then they need to strip grav shot of some of its bonuses and put them on other abilities. But their design was to make the class a stationary turret with gunner, and this change goes against that which, is fine if they changed the whole tree to adapt to the change, but they just did a knee jerk change.
They needed to do the change properly and screwed it up, just like they did with operative, and for some reasonthe healing tree got the brunt of the damage. Poor decisions all round
Currently playing- SWG PreCU & GW 2 Have tried WoW, AoC, & Vanguard, SWG:NGE, GW, LOTRO & SWTOR Best MMO: SWG Worst MMO: SWTOR
Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).
If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.
BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P
Using my class, trooper, as an example, 1.2 was a classic example of what not to do. Trooper needed changes, but only thanks to bioware own incompetence. They made the gunner tree revolve around grav shot and if they wanted to change that then they need to strip grav shot of some of its bonuses and put them on other abilities. But their design was to make the class a stationary turret with gunner, and this change goes against that which, is fine if they changed the whole tree to adapt to the change, but they just did a knee jerk change.
They needed to do the change properly and screwed it up, just like they did with operative, and for some reasonthe healing tree got the brunt of the damage. Poor decisions all round
Yah, when they talked in guild summit about class changes to Merc/Commando it sounded like single skill spam is gone.
When i saw 1.2 patch notes i /facepalmed lol
Spells: incompetence to deal with problems in adequate way.
Originally posted by gtnbtfte
Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).
If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.
BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P
BS, my guild cleared NmM and we are one of top PvP guilds on the server, was one of the first to clear HM FPs....
We do have a bit of insight on such things im afraid. The GW2 topic started to pop more and more on guildchat/TS/guild forums. You see where this is going.
And just a note, Sorc/Sage healing was OP due to bugs, that, of course, havent been fixed in 3+ months. Our ops ran with 1 sage 1 commando healer and THAT was best combo for healing. Only smuggler wasnt on that level of healing, but still could heal if necessary (on rare occasions our regular healer/s werent available they performed adequatly)
And just a note, Sorc/Sage healing was OP due to bugs, that, of course, havent been fixed in 3+ months. Our ops ran with 1 sage 1 commando healer and THAT was best combo for healing. Only smuggler wasnt on that level of healing, but still could heal if necessary (on rare occasions our regular healer/s werent available they performed adequatly)
I see this as the reason the healing changes were done the way they were. They dont want healing to be the savior of the raid team, they want the raid team to think and work on all classes. They want healing to be 'performed adequatly' as you stated with the scoundrel, so they are bringing the other two in line with them. Instead of bringing that one up to a level above what they are looking for, they are bringing the other two down to where they feel they should have been all along.
Right now as a sage I can heal circles around any damage hitting my team in HMs, on my soundrel it takes work by everyone on the team to survive them. My opinion, thats what they intended. No easy mode.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I see this as the reason the healing changes were done the way they were. They dont want healing to be the savior of the raid team, they want the raid team to think and work on all classes. They want healing to be 'performed adequatly' as you stated with the scoundrel, so they are bringing the other two in line with them. Instead of bringing that one up to a level above what they are looking for, they are bringing the other two down to where they feel they should have been all along.
Right now as a sage I can heal circles around any damage hitting my team in HMs, on my soundrel it takes work by everyone on the team to survive them. My opinion, thats what they intended. No easy mode.
While its true that they want to make PvE content "harder" by nerfing overall healing, where does that leave PvP?
Nowhere. Sage/sorc healers will be unplayable in rated WZs because they 2,5s heal will be interrupted every time and they are most squishy and easiest to kill.
And how will merc/ops healers do in new healing regime is to be seen.
Nothing like reading selected parts of patch notes and then freaking out.
In 1.2, a lot of "under the hood" changes are also being made to the math behind the game; specifically how healing is done and how damage is calculated, both PvE and PvP. They're also taking a second pass at diminishing returns balancing for secondary stats.
Yes, endgame raiding will become harder which is exactly their stated purpose in making these changes. Well-geared, skilled Sages never ran out of Force. Likewise, Troopers and Ammo. They would like those resources to be limited, and this is their solution. Bioware is *not* the first game developer to make changes so that limited resources are actually limited.
The Public Test Server is up and available to all subscribers, so you could actually check out the changes and see what you thought, and possibly offer some informed feedback. I'd think that would be more satisfying than screaming about the sky falling...
Nothing like reading selected parts of patch notes and then freaking out.
In 1.2, a lot of "under the hood" changes are also being made to the math behind the game; specifically how healing is done and how damage is calculated, both PvE and PvP. They're also taking a second pass at diminishing returns balancing for secondary stats.
Yes, endgame raiding will become harder which is exactly their stated purpose in making these changes. Well-geared, skilled Sages never ran out of Force. Likewise, Troopers and Ammo. They would like those resources to be limited, and this is their solution. Bioware is *not* the first game developer to make changes so that limited resources are actually limited.
The Public Test Server is up and available to all subscribers, so you could actually check out the changes and see what you thought, and possibly offer some informed feedback. I'd think that would be more satisfying than screaming about the sky falling...
Except people DO play on PTS:
a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats
or
b) everyone on PTS is a moron
AND
resurces are not limited and never were limited, my ammo/energy/heat/ammo....regens just fine at specified rate.
a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats
or
b) everyone on PTS is a moron
Well, either you can believe the developers or not...
"Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.
That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.”
I would say most of the data comes from metrics within the game rather than forum whining. As to the OP, it's their game and they know what they intended each class to do.
Juding by the state of the genre, I doubt any developer knows jack about their MMO
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Nerfs happen cause developer does research and feels one or more classes are either over powered or under- Nothing strange or unusual there. People get upset because they are used to their character being over powered and want to keep it that way
Ever notice people who complain that every time they pick a class it gets nerfed implying that they somehow always seem to be playing the OP classes. lol.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
This game is utter fail , I tried to become a fanboy but it is just bad I cant justify staying for another month. Im super bored but watching tv seems more fun than playing this game .
What game developers fail to realise is that POWER = FUN . NERF = CANCELLED ACCOUNTS.
when I level up or gain a skill I want that skill to give me the feeling of power . If something does too much damage, increase defense or hitpoints . Dont reduce , increase!
a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats
or
b) everyone on PTS is a moron
Well, either you can believe the developers or not...
"Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.
That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.”
-Georg Zoeller
Or i can believe actual numbers and stuff on PTS and put aside PR talk.
The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch. Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.
The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch. Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.
If by fixing you mean;
make good class/specs better and bad class/specs worse
Originally posted by NasherUK The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch. Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.
If by fixing you mean; make good class/specs better and bad class/specs worse they you are completely right.
^ lol that's exactly what BW did with classes in 1.2, made already good and powerful marauder better and made the least played operatives worse, and pyrotech/assault tree in BH/trooper- it's meant to be bursty and deadly provided you have heat/ammo to spare otherwise in 1.2 it's a waiting game on railshot/HIB procs and why nerf power shot on merc?.
Also tank assassin/shadows are severely flawed and I have no idea why Bioware doesn't see this since they haven't touched the class with 1.2.
Another thing, why are they making it that you can only use a stimpack once per fight? It's hard to get out of combat in pvp (stealthers gets an advantage) and this'll be a problem in Eterny Vault and Karraga's Palace.
^ lol that's exactly what BW did with classes in 1.2, made already good and powerful marauder better and made the least played operatives worse, and pyrotech/assault tree in BH/trooper- it's meant to be bursty and deadly provided you have heat/ammo to spare otherwise in 1.2 it's a waiting game on railshot/HIB procs and why nerf power shot on merc?.
Most likely some overly sensititve force sensitives who suck at PVP couldn't stand the fact they were getting their clocks cleaned by these classes. There was nothing wrong with Mercs. Their best abilities require them to stand in one place while firing off, which makes them very vulnerable to mobile classes. Any knight,agent, or similiar class can beat a Merc one on one.
Also tank assassin/shadows are severely flawed and I have no idea why Bioware doesn't see this since they haven't touched the class with 1.2.
I agree with you here. Tanks classes could use an increase.
Another thing, why are they making it that you can only use a stimpack once per fight? It's hard to get out of combat in pvp (stealthers gets an advantage) and this'll be a problem in Eterny Vault and Karraga's Palace.
Because one stim should be more than enough. Allowing too many turns the contest winner into whomever has the most stims;/buffs. Skill takes a back seat in those situations. The current level is fine.
Stealth players can pop out of sight, but troopers and bounty hunters can pop them back in. It's not as bad as other games where Stealth classes can just pop in and out at will with no chance stop them.
There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.
1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.
There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.
1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.
Uh yes, people quitting and FOTMs/bigger class imbalances will make the game better, i see it now, thanks for clarification.
There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.
1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.
Yah because everyone parsed the classes out before release and found out sorcs were the best class oh wait no logs how did they do this ? Id insult you but i got enough warnings on this crap of a site.
FYI the most OP class is vanguard/powertech 1 mil damage in warzones and you die 16 times you want a screenshot as proof ? Sorc isnt nearly as OP maybe alittle too much damage because we never run out of force, but far from powertech/vanguard OP.
Comments
made me laugh
Not really? Guess you don't speak for everyone, do you?
Yes and it's a shame that devs don't stand their ground against the PVE whiners.
The sheer volume of changes & their severity means they did a piss-poor job of balance for launch, I'm not convinced that's the case.
The way I see it is that content was criticised as being too easy, they decided to change their design philosophy & tighten up the content & make it much harder, these raft of balance changes indicate a bigger change in direction of the game than the developers are communicating to the players.
This kind of "setting the difficulty" is something that should have been decided upon pre-launch & during the beta phase, to push through a radical change of direction so early, when the game is bleeding out subs left & right is a huge gamble, it will either save the game's integrity or be the final nail in the coffin, but what is certain is that an awful lot of players are going to get really pissed off & are being told to swallow it.
I'm pretty certain they will regret this change of direction at this stage, I think it will backfire & while they think they are saving the game who will it be they will save it for? A tiny niche is who. They did not get the success they were after, this won't get it them either, simple truth is they wasted too much money on voicing every tiny little quest & did not invest enough in the endgame content that retains players, they banked on players recycling content playing alts, they have some of that, but the bigger audience was not interested in that.
Time will tell if they are shooting themselves in the foot or not, but I think they are.
PVE players aren't notorious for demanding nerfs. If devs ever caved in to PVE whiners there wouldn't be nerfs in the first place. So I'll take the PVE whiners any day over the whining PVPers who don't like to lose.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Trooper/BH and Sages/inq have been far ahead of other classes in every aspect (DPS and healing specs).
If you play endgame and look around you at other players you will see it. I play smuggler and troopers/sages friends in my guild see that they are OP. No one is denying it because they see how other classes perform in ops every week.
BW is doing the right thing here and could spend pages going through specifics that we see every week but cba :P
Using my class, trooper, as an example, 1.2 was a classic example of what not to do. Trooper needed changes, but only thanks to bioware own incompetence. They made the gunner tree revolve around grav shot and if they wanted to change that then they need to strip grav shot of some of its bonuses and put them on other abilities. But their design was to make the class a stationary turret with gunner, and this change goes against that which, is fine if they changed the whole tree to adapt to the change, but they just did a knee jerk change.
They needed to do the change properly and screwed it up, just like they did with operative, and for some reasonthe healing tree got the brunt of the damage. Poor decisions all round
Currently playing- SWG PreCU & GW 2
Have tried WoW, AoC, & Vanguard, SWG:NGE, GW, LOTRO & SWTOR
Best MMO: SWG
Worst MMO: SWTOR
Yah, when they talked in guild summit about class changes to Merc/Commando it sounded like single skill spam is gone.
When i saw 1.2 patch notes i /facepalmed lol
Spells: incompetence to deal with problems in adequate way.
BS, my guild cleared NmM and we are one of top PvP guilds on the server, was one of the first to clear HM FPs....
We do have a bit of insight on such things im afraid. The GW2 topic started to pop more and more on guildchat/TS/guild forums. You see where this is going.
And just a note, Sorc/Sage healing was OP due to bugs, that, of course, havent been fixed in 3+ months. Our ops ran with 1 sage 1 commando healer and THAT was best combo for healing. Only smuggler wasnt on that level of healing, but still could heal if necessary (on rare occasions our regular healer/s werent available they performed adequatly)
I see this as the reason the healing changes were done the way they were. They dont want healing to be the savior of the raid team, they want the raid team to think and work on all classes. They want healing to be 'performed adequatly' as you stated with the scoundrel, so they are bringing the other two in line with them. Instead of bringing that one up to a level above what they are looking for, they are bringing the other two down to where they feel they should have been all along.
Right now as a sage I can heal circles around any damage hitting my team in HMs, on my soundrel it takes work by everyone on the team to survive them. My opinion, thats what they intended. No easy mode.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
While its true that they want to make PvE content "harder" by nerfing overall healing, where does that leave PvP?
Nowhere. Sage/sorc healers will be unplayable in rated WZs because they 2,5s heal will be interrupted every time and they are most squishy and easiest to kill.
And how will merc/ops healers do in new healing regime is to be seen.
Nothing like reading selected parts of patch notes and then freaking out.
In 1.2, a lot of "under the hood" changes are also being made to the math behind the game; specifically how healing is done and how damage is calculated, both PvE and PvP. They're also taking a second pass at diminishing returns balancing for secondary stats.
Yes, endgame raiding will become harder which is exactly their stated purpose in making these changes. Well-geared, skilled Sages never ran out of Force. Likewise, Troopers and Ammo. They would like those resources to be limited, and this is their solution. Bioware is *not* the first game developer to make changes so that limited resources are actually limited.
The Public Test Server is up and available to all subscribers, so you could actually check out the changes and see what you thought, and possibly offer some informed feedback. I'd think that would be more satisfying than screaming about the sky falling...
Except people DO play on PTS:
a) Theres no "under the hood changes" or those are minimalistic like adjusting ratings for higher stats
or
b) everyone on PTS is a moron
AND
resurces are not limited and never were limited, my ammo/energy/heat/ammo....regens just fine at specified rate.
Play DDO to see what limied resources are.
Well, either you can believe the developers or not...
"Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.
That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.”
-Georg Zoeller
Juding by the state of the genre, I doubt any developer knows jack about their MMO
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I actually do feel REALLY bad for smugglers.
First the new armor set, now a healing nerf? Ouch
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Ever notice people who complain that every time they pick a class it gets nerfed implying that they somehow always seem to be playing the OP classes. lol.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This game is utter fail , I tried to become a fanboy but it is just bad I cant justify staying for another month. Im super bored but watching tv seems more fun than playing this game .
What game developers fail to realise is that POWER = FUN . NERF = CANCELLED ACCOUNTS.
when I level up or gain a skill I want that skill to give me the feeling of power . If something does too much damage, increase defense or hitpoints . Dont reduce , increase!
Or i can believe actual numbers and stuff on PTS and put aside PR talk.
The changes are far from class breaking. BW seem to at least research and test changes before applying them, unlike blizzard who constantly over-nerf/buff with every other patch. Certain classes/specs were clearly better, now they are trying to fix that.
If by fixing you mean;
make good class/specs better and bad class/specs worse
they you are completely right.
Also tank assassin/shadows are severely flawed and I have no idea why Bioware doesn't see this since they haven't touched the class with 1.2.
Another thing, why are they making it that you can only use a stimpack once per fight? It's hard to get out of combat in pvp (stealthers gets an advantage) and this'll be a problem in Eterny Vault and Karraga's Palace.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
There is a reason everyone plays a Sorcerer, you can lay on the hyperbole a mile thick but ballance is needed, rage quit, puke and die or ease down off the ledge and actually play the game.
1.2 the begining of the next wave of fps players moving on to something else, I hope.
Uh yes, people quitting and FOTMs/bigger class imbalances will make the game better, i see it now, thanks for clarification.
Yah because everyone parsed the classes out before release and found out sorcs were the best class oh wait no logs how did they do this ? Id insult you but i got enough warnings on this crap of a site.
FYI the most OP class is vanguard/powertech 1 mil damage in warzones and you die 16 times you want a screenshot as proof ? Sorc isnt nearly as OP maybe alittle too much damage because we never run out of force, but far from powertech/vanguard OP.