There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all.
You refuse to listen. I've explained it ad nauseum. I've explained it several times in my previous post. And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.
You refuse to listen. I've explained it ad nauseum. I've explained it several times in my previous post. And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.
See I can write the same t hing because the argument looks identical to me from my side. I explained it and you refuse to accept it.
You have not explained why the fight is not decided from the start because you are 20% better at twitch, or intelligence, or latency in connection.
-I've explained, though I don't understand why I have to, that despite these things, a repeated competition has different outcomes EVERY TIME. This is why the same team doesn't win the Superbowl, every year. And why the "best team" sometimes doesn't even MAKE IT to the Superbowl every year. This is why I can race the same people in NFS, end up in 1st place the first time, and end up dead last the next.
The other person has just as little chance to win as the person fighting against someone with 20% larger health pool.
The difference being that the person in your game didn't get 20% more health by being a better player. They just played for longer. Having more experience playing the game is enough advantage on its own.
We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.
That is just flat out false. Again, there would be no point in rematches in sports, chess, or any kind of competitive activity if that were true. PEOPLE ARE NOT ROBOTS, and even the simplest game is dynamic enough to yield different outcomes.
Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.
They are always going to win.
Again, NOT TRUE. But they will have an artificial advantage akin to cranking up the handicap for one of the players in a Tekken match. And in a standard progression based MMO design, level progression is basically a handicap system that gives an advantage to the player who's played the longest, which makes absolutely no sense; and is why RPG PvP sucks.
It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.
You'd have to live in a bubble to believe this to be true. It just simply is not.
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all.
There doesn't have to be a real reason.
Ever played PONG?
Everyone throws chess around. Ever had a reason to play chess? Yeah to have fun.
PvP can be built around that idea.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.
Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.
They are always going to win.
It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.
You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins.
Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in.
In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag.
We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.
Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.
They are always going to win.
It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.
You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins.
Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in.
In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag.
Actually I made a post about just that topic a while ago.
You are right. That in fact supports the point I was making. The same function only in a much more black box way is what causes the football teams in the other poster's example to switch around so much.
The illusion that he is under is produced because you cannot figure out why you won or lost as easily in pure PvP. The player BELIEVES they are in control of their fate when the reason they lost isn't out in the open. That is why people refer to an artificial advantage.
Now obviously in some games this can get pretty ridiculous. Like being 5 levels higher and being able to kill 4 people 5 levels lower at once. But that is more incredibly shitty design than a fault of stat based progression.
....because too many games treat pvp as a niche bolted on feature that you add on to a pve centered game, you want great pvp you must design a game with pvp in mind from the ground up, doesn't mean you have to neglect pve in favor of pvp , but pvp must be your focus from a design standpoint in all phases of a game ......that is why .....
I am for the record a 100% PvE Player now.... I voted Yes because for years I have seen several PvP MMOs get released, but none of them hold a candle to DAoC's RvR PvP for DAoC pre-TOA. I used to PvP back then so I know a little about it at least.
As to why can't we get a good PvP centric MMO made?
Simple. The decision makers are not PvPers.
The people in the MMO Industry that make the design decisions on how MMOs are made are NOT PvP Players. Not anymore anyways. They are Investors, Accountants, Marketers, etc. They are too busy in real life to take the time that is really needed to play MMOs as a PvP Player. They have probably played a few times, entered a few arenas or world PvP... just enough to be able to look a stock holder in the face and say "Yes I PvP".
That doesn't mean they have any more of a clue how to PvP than I do.
If you don't know how to PvP it is almost impossible for you to create a good PvP MMO.... only by getting really Lucky can you pull it off.
When MMOs were first made years ago almost all the decision makers were Players and most were PvPers. If you want a good PvP MMO find a Dev Team that also makes the real decisions for content and features, and who are also PvP Players.
Comments
There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,
There doesn't have to be a real reason.
Ever played PONG?
Everyone throws chess around. Ever had a reason to play chess? Yeah to have fun.
PvP can be built around that idea.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins.
Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in.
In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag.
Actually I made a post about just that topic a while ago.
You are right. That in fact supports the point I was making. The same function only in a much more black box way is what causes the football teams in the other poster's example to switch around so much.
The illusion that he is under is produced because you cannot figure out why you won or lost as easily in pure PvP. The player BELIEVES they are in control of their fate when the reason they lost isn't out in the open. That is why people refer to an artificial advantage.
Now obviously in some games this can get pretty ridiculous. Like being 5 levels higher and being able to kill 4 people 5 levels lower at once. But that is more incredibly shitty design than a fault of stat based progression.
....because too many games treat pvp as a niche bolted on feature that you add on to a pve centered game, you want great pvp you must design a game with pvp in mind from the ground up, doesn't mean you have to neglect pve in favor of pvp , but pvp must be your focus from a design standpoint in all phases of a game ......that is why .....
voted Yes.
I am for the record a 100% PvE Player now.... I voted Yes because for years I have seen several PvP MMOs get released, but none of them hold a candle to DAoC's RvR PvP for DAoC pre-TOA. I used to PvP back then so I know a little about it at least.
As to why can't we get a good PvP centric MMO made?
Simple. The decision makers are not PvPers.
The people in the MMO Industry that make the design decisions on how MMOs are made are NOT PvP Players. Not anymore anyways. They are Investors, Accountants, Marketers, etc. They are too busy in real life to take the time that is really needed to play MMOs as a PvP Player. They have probably played a few times, entered a few arenas or world PvP... just enough to be able to look a stock holder in the face and say "Yes I PvP".
That doesn't mean they have any more of a clue how to PvP than I do.
If you don't know how to PvP it is almost impossible for you to create a good PvP MMO.... only by getting really Lucky can you pull it off.
When MMOs were first made years ago almost all the decision makers were Players and most were PvPers. If you want a good PvP MMO find a Dev Team that also makes the real decisions for content and features, and who are also PvP Players.
Hint: The RePopulation.