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Why can't we get a good PvP centered MMOG? [Poll]

YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

I mean for sure there is a need for one but every other big budget MMOG has PvE as first prio and PvP to get more subs. Why can't there be a good PvP focused MMOG?

Only one I know of was WAR and that was kind of craptastic. Other one's are all low budget games like Darkfall and is also full loot, FFA PvP which discourages people further.

Maybe that is the problem, that people seem to think you have to do FFA PvP with full loot to have a PvP centered MMOG? Because I really think you don't have to. Just like a PvE game does not have to be with extreme death penalties, neither does PvP MMOGs.

So what you think, should the industry produce a PvP focused, big budget MMOG?

 

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Comments

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    I voted "maybe".

    Not a big PvP'er so I wouldn't play it, but there's no reason not to appease those looking for their fix.

  • treysmoothtreysmooth Martinsville, INPosts: 626Member

    Sadly I think it has more to do with the game design choices of the companies that have tried in recent years more than budget.  Gear needs to be cheap/easy to get and made by the other players preferable.  I personally would like to see a lvl free game that would be similar to star wars galaxies pre cu as well.  The single most important thing imo is to set a skill cap(again like swg) to where you had to make tough choices and the game wasn't full of tank mages ftw.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I have a feeling most of these professional beta testers are pve players. Several games start with more pvp content, but then once they hit beta pvp always seems to be the thing to get cut to hit deadlines
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

    I am not sure that it is what OP is looking for, but it is a AAA PvP based game.

    I voted yes, I think a larger percentage of the MMOs should be PvP centered. Not all, far from it, but half would be nice or at least a third.

  • XNephalimXXNephalimX A city, TXPosts: 87Member

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    I have a feeling most of these professional beta testers are pve players. Several games start with more pvp content, but then once they hit beta pvp always seems to be the thing to get cut to hit deadlines

    Nah that has nothing to do with it. try, not everyone wants to spend their 15 bucks to kill you over and over and over. Thats why its never the first priority in any game. Sure pvp is fun for a lot of people, but its not fun for everyone.

    And op, :) one of the reasons for consequences in pvp is not always risk vs reward, its about not supporting 100% sociopathical gameplay.

  • ProfRedProfRed Duluth, GAPosts: 3,511Member

    Well you have Planetside and DAoC currently.  Planetside 2 is coming out soon, and also Game of Thrones browser based from BigPoint, but still a sandbox PvP game.

    Then you have EVE online currently, with World of Darkness in development which will likely use a similar system.  Darkfall 2.0 coming down the pipes and ArcheAge as well.  Guild Wars 2 is a game you can level from 2-80 in a RvR PvP zone.

    WAR is a joke.  I mean how unbelievably stupid do you have to be to make a game about world PvP and then put in instant zone into instanced warzones that reward players more than world PvP thus letting everyone advance for the entire game while never even being in the world?  I mean come on.  I called it in beta.  Whoever was in charge of this and making these decisions is one of the most out of touch idiots in his own genre.  Hmm went off on a little rant there...

    I do know where you are coming from though.  There is a definite line drawn between instanced full on action PvP like Tribes, Firefall, Call of Duty, PvP setups in most MMORPG's now verse a real supported open world PvP game. 

    The thing is for meaningful PvP you have to have consequences, win conditions, etc.  WAR keeps are practically a joke early.  GW2 I am worried that territory control will become meaningless.  There can be an advancement system, but the more consequences and penalties for death the more it means to win or lose and these are key things to make a successful PvP centered game.  The problem is this is where 'carebears' come into play.  They can't handle the consequences, the risk outweighs the reward, the stress is outweighs the enjoyment, etc. 

    So I took some cold medicine and I am simply rambling.  /endpost

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common

    I would argue GW1 meets your requirements of:

    1) PvP centered

    2) Is good.

  • PivotelitePivotelite Hamilton, ONPosts: 2,167Member

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

     Do you really think someone with 4000+ posts doesn't know about GW WvW PvP?

     

     

    On a side note, I voted yes because I think if done well tons of people will hang around for a long time for the competitive aspect that PvP brings, I mean I know people who played runescape for years just because of PvP'ing and look how basic that games combat is.

     

    I'd also like to add that no, I do not think full loot should be needed for a proper PvP MMO, but would never be a bad idea to have a seperate server on the game with full loot. That would always make the game appeal to a broader spectrum of players.

    image

  • SnoepieSnoepie RotterdamPosts: 470Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    I mean for sure there is a need for one but every other big budget MMOG has PvE as first prio and PvP to get more subs. Why can't there be a good PvP focused MMOG?

    Only one I know of was WAR and that was kind of craptastic. Other one's are all low budget games like Darkfall and is also full loot, FFA PvP which discourages people further.

    Maybe that is the problem, that people seem to think you have to do FFA PvP with full loot to have a PvP centered MMOG? Because I really think you don't have to. Just like a PvE game does not have to be with extreme death penalties, neither does PvP MMOGs.

    So what you think, should the industry produce a PvP focused, big budget MMOG?

     

    im not sure what you think or how you think about darkfall..

     

    But darkfall consits of a player clans and ecnomy..

     

    If kinda depends what your preff.. if you wanne have ffa pvp you can.. if you wanne be part of a clan you can also.

     

    So many people cry about the games.. there is no game i can play... i am a pvp freak..

     

    And the best game since UO have been made and is called darkfall online.. then people start complaining about the grind and so forth.. or there is no compatition in darkfall since i got a lowbie char..

     

    If you are a pvp freak.. believe me darkfall is your game..

  • seldinseldin Paris, ILPosts: 112Member Uncommon

    The reason you don't see and probably wont see a big budget PvP centered game as you call it is that there is a much smaller market for it.  They are much harder to impliment balance and everyone will constantly complaign about this class or that class is overpowered in pvp.  They are so many more challenges to just pvp and most gamers want some sort of PvE so you can make a game that is PvE which is almost a requirement for the game and add PvP as an extra or have to have almost 2 games in one when you make PvP as a requirement.  Plus you are starting to get a oversaturated mmo market.  It is becoming marder and harder to make a mmo trhat going to be a blockbuster because most gamers have too big of expectations.  A brand new mmo will havve bugs and not be polished or perfect.  They evolve and ther is not one mmo out there that did not struggle some at release and evolve into what they are today.  The final problem you going to find is that the PvPers are a fractured bunch.  They all want something different.  If you have it FFA you will get complaints, if in not full loot you will get complaints whereas PvE is much more unified in what they want and you can get more of a following with them.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    did someone say planetside 2?

     

    if not... WHY NOT!?

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by Pivotelite

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

     Do you really think someone with 4000+ posts doesn't know about GW WvW PvP?

     

    This is 2012 and there are people that don't "believe" evolution happens, so I've stopped assuming people automatically know what I do.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,247Member Uncommon

    IMO, it's not so much the MMO part of that, it's the RPG part; progressive advancement which gives artificial skill, ultimately  based on the amount of time spent within a game.

    That kind of PvP has no value to me, even before factoring how people tend to play it, which usually involves finding somebody who is less powerful than their character and killing them.

    Sure, I know that a player that knows their character, and the opponents weaknesses best also has an edge.  An edge that can overcome "levels/skill points" to an extent.

    But actual, 100% skill based games ALWAYS play to that edge, and ONLY to that edge.  So why would someone be interested in PvP'ing in a game where 80% of the outcome is determined by who's the highest level and who raided for 20 hours straight to get the Holy Handaxe of Homunculus Halitosis?

    And most importantly, what kind of player is drawn to THAT in lieu of a 100% actual skill based PvP game?  Answer that question, HONESTLY, and you'll realize that the problem has little to do with the games, themselves.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Volkon


    Originally posted by Pivotelite


    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

     Do you really think someone with 4000+ posts doesn't know about GW WvW PvP?

     

    This is 2012 and there are people that don't "believe" evolution happens, so I've stopped assuming people automatically know what I do.

     

    After being here for nearly a year I am no longer sure evolutionary theory is watertight.
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Originally posted by Pivotelite

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

     Do you really think someone with 4000+ posts doesn't know about GW WvW PvP?

     

    This is 2012 and there are people that don't "believe" evolution happens, so I've stopped assuming people automatically know what I do.

     

    After being here for nearly a year I am no longer sure evolutionary theory is watertight.

    You officially made me laugh at work. :)

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Voted yes, but I love ffa full loot PVP it just brings somthing special to the game.. but i could make do with a high budget MMORPG + some sandbox features :) will have to wait and see what AA is like in a few years i guess :)

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    I would argue GW1 meets your requirements of:
    1) PvP centered
    2) Is good.

    edit, nvm, mis read

    image
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  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    ... Why can't there be a good PvP focused MMOG? ...

    For the same reason that there is no good PvE focused MMOG around: big studios have stopped to make good games.

    As MMORPGer you currently have two alternatives:

    1. Play an AAA themepark, level fast to the level cap, then spend your time in instances PvE-ing or in instances PvP-ing.

    2. Play an underdeveloped, buggy and unfinished indie game.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    So what you think, should the industry produce a PvP focused, big budget MMOG?

    Can you get, say, three of five mmo players to agree on what "good" PVP is in order to maximize your odds?  Two of five?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Depends on how it's built.

    Does PvP have any meaning (i.e. what are we fighting for)?  Is there any incentive to plan ahead / strategize and not to charge mindlessly into battle?

    I'm not interested in playing Unreal Tournament Online or any type of instanced battlegrounds / arenas.

     

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Seems to me Guild Wars 2 and their World v World PvP is pretty much what you're looking for.

    I am not sure that it is what OP is looking for, but it is a AAA PvP based game.

    I voted yes, I think a larger percentage of the MMOs should be PvP centered. Not all, far from it, but half would be nice or at least a third.

    Well if in GW 2 the main focus of the game, which means the bulk of content and dev resources, are on PvP then it is what I am looking for. Is that the case with GW 2?

    Because I am well aware of the World vs World vs World PvP that GW 2 is offering but will it be the main focus? Basically I want an MMORPG that for, once, puts PvE in the backseat.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    I vote yes.  I don't want to play it, but for the love of gaming, give these pvp crazy people a home, so they will get the hell out of the MMOs I enjoy!

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    IMO, it's not so much the MMO part of that, it's the RPG part; progressive advancement which gives artificial skill, ultimately  based on the amount of time spent within a game.

    That kind of PvP has no value to me, even before factoring how people tend to play it, which usually involves finding somebody who is less powerful than their character and killing them.

    Sure, I know that a player that knows their character, and the opponents weaknesses best also has an edge.  An edge that can overcome "levels/skill points" to an extent.

    But actual, 100% skill based games ALWAYS play to that edge, and ONLY to that edge.  So why would someone be interested in PvP'ing in a game where 80% of the outcome is determined by who's the highest level and who raided for 20 hours straight to get the Holy Handaxe of Homunculus Halitosis?

    And most importantly, what kind of player is drawn to THAT in lieu of a 100% actual skill based PvP game?  Answer that question, HONESTLY, and you'll realize that the problem has little to do with the games, themselves.

    BING-effing-O.

    image
  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Break PvP into categories:

    small team based = skill based (gw2??)

    faction instances = big zerg based (gw2??)

    large faction based = world/group war based (eve?)

    open world dog eat dog = darkfall?

    Integrated world pvp = eve somewhat but maybe Pathfinder if it is successful?

     

    Anyway just illustrations...

    I think something like what Pathfinder aims for Big Open World where pvp can  happen is ideal as pvp should enhance other systems as much as other systems enhancing...

    Planetside 2 , Firefall and Dust xxx all look interesting from this way.

     

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