Theme Park(new gamers) vs Sandbox(oldschool gamers)

evicton

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by gimmesome

My appologies for assuming you were trolling Cau.

 

I guess I couldn't help but defend lol

Its all about assumptions really. I do not consider skyrim a sandbox because you can't alter the landscape, and you can only really buy premade houses AFAIK. Classless is also possible in themeparks.

I really think its just a non linear themepark. You can go where you want its true, but isnt that mostly a function of level scaling?

Different people put the line in the sand, damn you you filthy pun, in different places.

And this is the real reason most companies stay away from making a sandbox title. What is a sandbox title for one person is a non linear themepark for another. Every single feature seems to lower the number of your target audience.

Story- Add it/ don't add it. Your target audience got smaller, cause some people want it and others don't

FFA PVP- This is a big one and can potentially cut your target audience in half. 

Now if you decide to go with ffa pvp you can then decide if you want full loot or not.

I've kinda convinced myself a pure sandbox mmo target audience may be the most hardest niche market to devolop a game for. On top of all this difficulty where every choice dramaticly affects your products reception you have no real proof even if you make the greatest sandbox every made. You can make as much money as even a f2p themepark. 

 

 

Themeparks work the same way. Some features are make or break for many people in themeparks too. Besides, I still liked skyrim and paid for and played it. It not being a sandbox didn't stop me.

With a thempark game you can answer yes, no, no to those same questions with no impact on your playerbase. With a sandbox however you answer those question will define if its a game they will even play if you listen to alot of sandboxers.

If you lose a part of you potential themepark audience its still more likely to be larger then your potential target audience with a themepark.

Look at it this way, if you remove all pvp from HiSec in eve, how many subs do you lose, versus say making a safe area from pvp on all pvp servers in a themepark (most themeparks already do this) the impact for themepark would be very small. 

Look at the whole incara in Eve (I'm not picking on eve but its the most successful sandbox). The adition of cash shops plus leaked corporate memos had eve losing subs + in game protests. Yet tons of themeparks add cash shops and they thrive eve lost a significant amount of subs, enough to make the company back peddle.

Lexin

Well I started with FFXI so I can't be placed in either. But if I had to choose judging by what I know about both Sandbox and Themepark then I would choose Sandbox.

evilastro

Its got nothing to do with younger / older generations. The difference is in the numbers. Back in the 'good old days' there werent anywhere near as many MMO players. It was a niche market and grind, community and time wasting was pretty much the name of the game for the MMO crowd. Then came WoW, and delivered a watered down experience for the casual gamer. The same proportion of old EQ1 / DAOC players still love the old school MMO style, its just they are outnumbered by the casual WoW gamers now.

So who do MMO developers target? The niche? Or the majority? Throw in the fact that sandboxers / old school MMOers are quite jaded, bitter and very harsh on any failures to deliver the perfect MMO world.... thats why we are where we are.

niceguy3978

Originally posted by troublmaker

I disagree with the "us" vs "them" mentality in agism.

I was a child of the 80s and my friend owned an Atari and my dad had an IBM.

Playing for me even imaginary playing was structured.  It had rules and it had a path to follow.  You can't play Ninja Turtles or He-Mann at the same time.  It just doesn't make sense and ruins the fantasy.  It was very linear as you were always going after the "bad guy" of the time.

When you play tag it has rules.  You can't just run anywhere at all or else your parents will get worried and get angry at you.

Games of the 80s were all linear.  All of those flight simulators, Pacman, and text investigation puzzles.  All of them were designed to be played the exact same way every single time to assure success.  You couldn't just leave the map of Pacman... you'd just re-appear from another corner... like a constant Portal.

Packaging games in a linear manner is not something generational having to do with the 90s, 2000s, and 2010s.  Everyone has this glorified view of "when I was a kid."  I'm sure we've all heard these stories of our parents walking up hill both ways.  Same shit here.

The reason why games are being made theme park is simply because the big gaming market right now is 21-35 and these are people who grew up with linear theme-park games.  The 10-21 crowd who you have deemed as the people purchasing theme parks and hating sandboxes are the second highest buying audience.

I saw a similar argument made about RTS games and RPGs whereas dumb people play RPGs and smart people play RTS'.

I mean you want that to be true if you play an RTS but there is no data to support that supposition.  All it is, is a grandios claim that makes you feel better about yourself.

EDIT: Also the NES came out in 85 so I'm not entirely sure what console-less computer-less 80s you were living in.

Pretty much this.  While I never had an Atari, I did have an Intellivision, and a Texas Instruments computer (don't remember hte model number) that I had to program the games myself and save them onto cassette tapes.  I started on Ultima in January 1999 and thought it was great that I could be in the world with all these other people.  Then I jumped ship for EQ1 when it came out, so I went from sandbox to the first available themepark.  Then when wow came out I jumped ship again and played on and off for 7 years.  So, I grew up in the same generation and I prefer themeparks.

Ironically, my son on the other hand loves EVE.  I like the fact that he plays eve because I only have to pay for a few months out of the year, most months he buys his own ingame.  Though I do not let him get on vent/teamspeak ect.  I let him listen in if he is on the other computer in my room so I can listen in, otherwise not allowed. 

Moaky07

Originally posted by phantomghost

Originally posted by Ecoces

well if you played EQ1 and loved that game don't lump yourself in as a sandbox player. EQ1 was a themepark i don't know why people say its a sandbox.

It was more of a sandbox.

 

You had to obtain gear, spells, and skills to play your role.  You had to learn your role which was defined by the class you chose to play.  Each role could have minor changes.  Maybe you would focus your war as a tank maybe as a dps... depended on what was needed.

 

You had consequences.  You could attack (on purpose or by accident) a friendly npc.  If you died you loss xp, you had to go on a corpse run.

 

You never had a direct path to follow.  You had variety of things to do.  If you did not want all of your spells you would not go farm for them.  It was not just a simple, go to a trainer and he teaches you everything, the only option for you is, do I buy it or not.

The game was not laid out so that you could run from a low level zone and never have to cross through a high level zone to get to another low level zone.  If I wanted to level somewhere at level 25, I may have needed to run through a level 50 zone to get there.

You did not follow  quests that lead you from one zone to another.

 

If you believe EQ is a themepark MMO, you do not know anything.

 

I am not saying it was a pure sandbox mmo, but it certainly was not a themepark mmo.

 

 

Bullshit to the Nth degree.

 

Did you ever spend any amount of time playing during the early yrs?  From the onset they gave us rides in the form of camps. Do this camp, get your prize, then move on to the next. Then they went all hard core with the raiding in Kunark & beyond, and you were needing to complete prior raid content from previous expansions to make it into the next expansion.

 

EQ being open world, and full of lore gave it a sandboxy feel, but it was full on themepark. Cutting my MMO teeth on EQ, I can tell ya those "sandboxes" that are clamored for are just a total RP/lack of PVE to me. I have no use for it.

 

BTW there was someone clamoring about playing with their turtles in the 80s, and liking sandboxes cause I assume they are more "adult" is the notion they were trying to put forth. Being born in 68, and growing up on things like Evel Kenival, The 6M Dollar Man, and Star Wars, I can flat out say age has nothing to do with what a person enjoys in gaming. Spare us the stereotypes. Sandboxes appear to appeal to those that were into PnP, or PVP, where as themeparks appear to appeal to those that enjoy PVE content.

 

There isnt some magic stigma which so many here wanna associate with it. Sheesh

gimmesome

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Ironically, my son on the other hand loves EVE.  I like the fact that he plays eve because I only have to pay for a few months out of the year, most months he buys his own ingame.  Though I do not let him get on vent/teamspeak ect.  I let him listen in if he is on the other computer in my room so I can listen in, otherwise not allowed. 

Ironic indeed!   I've not yet met a "successful" and wealthy EVE player under the age of 16 and rare at that. Mostly a seemingly older crowd and is also ironically, a reason I always end up back in the world of EVE.   Most of the invested playerbase are mature, patient, and "look at the big picture" types of people, which tend to be older and/or generally more mellow and sociable people.

There is a lot of math, economics, politics, and even psychology in EVE, and all that even comes in to play when you get into combat strategy and tactics.   

Short of being a market/industrial/trade guru, making billions of ISK in EVE takes a lot of playtime

So, if you're son is that vested in EVE enough to be successful and able to afford to pay for PLEX with ISK, I suggest you funnel his efforts towards something more beneficial and rewarding IRL, like... getting a good accounting job and paying your bills for you

;-)

that's awesome tho

 

Slampig

Originally posted by Palladin

I think todays issues are more about this than anything else. Many of us old school gamers frm the 80s grow up in a day and age pre PC when you wrold told by your parentss "get the &*(& outside and play> So we did and we found ways to entertain ourselves. So when games systems and PCs came out games were more about finding ways to entertain yourself.

 

Nowadays kids "expect" to be entertains they do not know how and do not try to entertain themselves. They grow up in the age where the TV, phones, ipads, MP3, game consoles do all the entertainment for them.

 

My question would be this:

What is the core issue?

My answer is this:

We have 2 competing game styles communities that do not mix well.

Theme Park vs Sandbox(I personally I am of the later breed)

Themepark games "in general" donot allow players to impact the world

Sandbox games do allow players to impact the world and is the central theme of the game.

Is it possible to mix the two styles of play? I say yes.

 

A good example of mixing the  two styles is Fallen Earth. Clunky and issue ridden as it is it works well enough for a f2P game.

 

I look for games that will give me what I want but not exclude other game styles. I want more social interaction in my games not exclusion. In my opinion all game styles are valid but I am only concerned whith what I WANT.

WHAT I WANT:

1) more people ingame..jam the newb areas with people make the game run smoth( one world not 50-1000 servers)

2)Choice of things to do not a train ride through the park

3)Huge land mass that is wide open so i can explore all around it not some path to walk down(like in Aion)

4)PVP I am not hardcore so it should not be full world

5) Player owned teritory.

 

Looks like you are waiting for the same game I am, and that game is ArchAge.

Palladin

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by Palladin

I think todays issues are more about this than anything else. Many of us old school gamers frm the 80s grow up in a day and age pre PC when you wrold told by your parentss "get the &*(& outside and play> So we did and we found ways to entertain ourselves. So when games systems and PCs came out games were more about finding ways to entertain yourself.

 

Nowadays kids "expect" to be entertains they do not know how and do not try to entertain themselves. They grow up in the age where the TV, phones, ipads, MP3, game consoles do all the entertainment for them.

 

My question would be this:

What is the core issue?

My answer is this:

We have 2 competing game styles communities that do not mix well.

Theme Park vs Sandbox(I personally I am of the later breed)

Themepark games "in general" donot allow players to impact the world

Sandbox games do allow players to impact the world and is the central theme of the game.

Is it possible to mix the two styles of play? I say yes.

 

A good example of mixing the  two styles is Fallen Earth. Clunky and issue ridden as it is it works well enough for a f2P game.

 

I look for games that will give me what I want but not exclude other game styles. I want more social interaction in my games not exclusion. In my opinion all game styles are valid but I am only concerned whith what I WANT.

WHAT I WANT:

1) more people ingame..jam the newb areas with people make the game run smoth( one world not 50-1000 servers)

2)Choice of things to do not a train ride through the park

3)Huge land mass that is wide open so i can explore all around it not some path to walk down(like in Aion)

4)PVP I am not hardcore so it should not be full world

5) Player owned teritory.

 

Looks like you are waiting for the same game I am, and that game is ArchAge.

I'm not holding my breath or following the game. I'm not a fan of pansy Asian anime

Amana

Please read the stickied threads before starting a discussion. This discussion belongs here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/317478/Sandbox-vs-Themepark-Discussion-Thread.html

Locking this.