2) Wait a minute, most of those people who are most excited about GW2 also loved GW1
3) I personally thought GW1 was horrid. Literally one of the worst games I've ever played (not trolling here, honestly)
4) Hmmm. Now I'm not so sure about GW2. Many of those hyping it loved a game I hated.
5) I'm confused again
well the majority of people I know who are "hyping" gw2 absolutely agree with you on GW 1.
I personal played GW and hated every second I spent in the game. Most everyone I've gamed with in the guilds I've been in feel the same way about Guild Wars. Clunky, Mechanical movements, just very limited.
GW2 on the other hand is offering everything nearly everyone has wanted in a game. Most of the spotlight reviews I've seen by critical reviewers have proven its typically above and beyond anything they expected compared to anything on the current market.
That being said GW sucked, imo, was and is HORRIBLE. GW2 looks amazing, offers more than any game out or even expected for release, and on paper nothing can compete... Nothing. and without a SUB hell ya!!!
You accused me of trolling, tried to derail the conversation by pointing out a typo, and 2 posts later, you still haven't answered my question.
The conjecture was all on your behalf. GW1 was a great game, but it is not a game that I felt deserved a subscription fee because it was not of the same quality as a game that has one. Just to say what pops into my head, when I played, the graphics were nice, but the gameworld didn't allow for much interaction (can't swim, can't open doors and thus can't explore buildings) animations were stiff, everyone looked the same, there wasn't a lot of draw to the game after having raised a character to level 20 aside from HoH PvP and GvG.
GW1 is entirely irrelevant. It hasn't had a major content update in close to 5 years, pick up PvP is absolutely dead, and it is pretty much only still played by diehard fans. If you bring up seeing several players around in outposts, lets not forget the game only has a single server.
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
You've either mixed up your numbers, [Mod Edit]
No, not everyone who objects to your views is being touchy, or otherwise defensive. Actually in this case it seems like you're refereing to bad experiences in Guild Wars 1 half the time. The rest was pure conjecture. Stuff you simply made up. Especially love how you refer to GW2 in past tense, as if you've bought it or something.
You accused me of trolling, tried to derail the conversation by pointing out a typo, and 2 posts later, you still haven't answered my question.
The conjecture was all on your behalf. GW1 was a great game, but it is not a game that I felt deserved a subscription fee because it was not of the same quality as a game that has one. Just to say what pops into my head, when I played, the graphics were nice, but the gameworld didn't allow for much interaction (can't swim, can't open doors and thus can't explore buildings) animations were stiff, everyone looked the same, there wasn't a lot of draw to the game after having raised a character to level 20 aside from HoH PvP and GvG.
GW1 is entirely irrelevant. It hasn't had a major content update in close to 5 years, pick up PvP is absolutely dead, and it is pretty much only still played by diehard fans. If you bring up seeing several players around in outposts, lets not forget the game only has a single server.
Here's my confused thought process on GW2 hype:
0) I'm confused about the GW2 hype
1) No monthly fee (for those without jobs)! Awesome! No grind (for those that hate that) yeah! Dynamic quests. Yeah! RvRvR PVP Awesome! GW2 gonna rock this world!
2) Wait a minute, most of those people who are most excited about GW2 also loved GW1
3) I personally thought GW1 was horrid. Literally one of the worst games I've ever played (not trolling here, honestly)
4) Hmmm. Now I'm not so sure about GW2. Many of those hyping it loved a game I hated.
5) I'm confused again
really? people might listen to your arguement if you didn't come across like a conceited twat..play the game and then feel free to share your opinion..otherwise everything you say is just your pre conditioned monkey brain resisting against something that is new.
I played GW1. And I get the people that think $10-15 dollars a month is a big deal. Wasn't actually trying to be a "twat" because I get it. I put the "without jobs" just to clarify I personally don't care about the fee. I also don't personally care about a little grind which is why I added that qualifier as well. My point 1) was actually admitting I can get the hype sometimes. But then the rest of the points confuse me again.
And not to be snobby but monthly fee really is chump change to an adult with a decent job. Compare it to the cost of a night out with the family or even a movie. I pay almost $200 a month on my cable bill LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
You've either mixed up your numbers [Mod Edit]
No, not everyone who objects to your views is being touchy, or otherwise defensive. Actually in this case it seems like you're refereing to bad experiences in Guild Wars 1 half the time. The rest was pure conjecture. Stuff you simply made up. Especially love how you refer to GW2 in past tense, as if you've bought it or something.
You accused me of trolling, tried to derail the conversation by pointing out a typo, and 2 posts later, you still haven't answered my question.
The conjecture was all on your behalf. GW1 was a great game, but it is not a game that I felt deserved a subscription fee because it was not of the same quality as a game that has one. Just to say what pops into my head, when I played, the graphics were nice, but the gameworld didn't allow for much interaction (can't swim, can't open doors and thus can't explore buildings) animations were stiff, everyone looked the same, there wasn't a lot of draw to the game after having raised a character to level 20 aside from HoH PvP and GvG.
GW1 is entirely irrelevant. It hasn't had a major content update in close to 5 years, pick up PvP is absolutely dead, and it is pretty much only still played by diehard fans. If you bring up seeing several players around in outposts, lets not forget the game only has a single server.
Here's my confused thought process on GW2 hype:
0) I'm confused about the GW2 hype
1) No monthly fee (for those without jobs)! Awesome! No grind (for those that hate that) yeah! Dynamic quests. Yeah! RvRvR PVP Awesome! GW2 gonna rock this world!
2) Wait a minute, most of those people who are most excited about GW2 also loved GW1
3) I personally thought GW1 was horrid. Literally one of the worst games I've ever played (not trolling here, honestly)
4) Hmmm. Now I'm not so sure about GW2. Many of those hyping it loved a game I hated.
5) I'm confused again
Well the fact that the guy still hasn't answered my question, opting instead to go into hyper defensive mode, speaks volumes.
No one is forcing you to play the game man! if you don't like what you see then just don't play it, Otherwise do as us sane people do and judge the game once it's actually released.
1) No monthly fee (for those without jobs)! Awesome! No grind (for those that hate that) yeah! Dynamic quests. Yeah! RvRvR PVP Awesome! GW2 gonna rock this world!
2) Wait a minute, most of those people who are most excited about GW2 also loved GW1
3) I personally thought GW1 was horrid. Literally one of the worst games I've ever played (not trolling here, honestly)
4) Hmmm. Now I'm not so sure about GW2. Many of those hyping it loved a game I hated.
5) I'm confused again
Well I've never played Guild Wars 1, because I knew I would have not enjoyed playing it. Just doesn't have what I want from RPG, let alone and Online one. However I'm excited for Guild Wars 2, based on what it has to offer (mainly that it is different from GW1). That should help give you a different perspective of things.
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
You've either mixed up your numbers [Mod Edit]
No, not everyone who objects to your views is being touchy, or otherwise defensive. Actually in this case it seems like you're refereing to bad experiences in Guild Wars 1 half the time. The rest was pure conjecture. Stuff you simply made up. Especially love how you refer to GW2 in past tense, as if you've bought it or something.
You accused me of trolling, tried to derail the conversation by pointing out a typo, and 2 posts later, you still haven't answered my question.
The conjecture was all on your behalf. GW1 was a great game, but it is not a game that I felt deserved a subscription fee because it was not of the same quality as a game that has one. Just to say what pops into my head, when I played, the graphics were nice, but the gameworld didn't allow for much interaction (can't swim, can't open doors and thus can't explore buildings) animations were stiff, everyone looked the same, there wasn't a lot of draw to the game after having raised a character to level 20 aside from HoH PvP and GvG.
GW1 is entirely irrelevant. It hasn't had a major content update in close to 5 years, pick up PvP is absolutely dead, and it is pretty much only still played by diehard fans. If you bring up seeing several players around in outposts, lets not forget the game only has a single server.
Your trying to compare a CORPG to an MMO, there is no comparison, GW1 has actually had plenty of game content updates, the most recent was "The winds of change", it also has plenty of PvP and a lot of people still do PvP both competetivly and casually. Anet still actively supports GW1 and you are correct that they havnt had a boxed expansion for a while, they have probably felt they have taken the game as far as they think they can, and also a lot of their resources have been put into the development of GW2 the past 5 years.
Getting to level cap was easy and fast, the game was based on skill, there was no need to raise cap beyond 20, there probably was good reason not to put levels into the game at all really.
Maybe we should all follow your reasoning and start comparing BF3, COD and other server based games to MMO's.
One guy(SuperX) is oblivious highly oblivious yet stubborn, there is no reasoning or no need to waste time on such. The other is trying to prove a point and was doing good but fucked up when saying "For no jobs." come on Gain you know good ol well how to word that "For people who just don't want to play subs, for people w/o jobs, for people who just wanna have fun w/o having to put in credit card info." So your right but wrong in how it came off.
Any way just for a recap on what's been posted, food for thought(I'm going to keep saying this because that thread amused me)...
Read my signature and please someone come up with legit counters than attempting to be and remain oblivious about the Game itself.
There is nothing else needed to be said honestly unless it's about why subs are needed, not needed, in all honestly they aren't but what ever, but please continue the arguments lol.
Take care and enjoy yourselves.
(Remember read the link in my signature for a recap it's already on the first page.)
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Read my signature and please someone come up with legit counters than attempting to be and remain oblivious about the Game itself.
There is nothing else needed to be said honestly unless it's about why subs are needed, not needed, in all honestly they aren't but what ever, but please continue the arguments lol.
Take care and enjoy yourselves.
(Remember read the link in my signature for a recap it's already on the first page.)
You should turn it into a link people can click on, like mine.
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
You've either mixed up your numbers, [Mod Edit]
No, not everyone who objects to your views is being touchy, or otherwise defensive. Actually in this case it seems like you're refereing to bad experiences in Guild Wars 1 half the time. The rest was pure conjecture. Stuff you simply made up. Especially love how you refer to GW2 in past tense, as if you've bought it or something.
You accused me of trolling, tried to derail the conversation by pointing out a typo, and 2 posts later, you still haven't answered my question.
The conjecture was all on your behalf. GW1 was a great game, but it is not a game that I felt deserved a subscription fee because it was not of the same quality as a game that has one. Just to say what pops into my head, when I played, the graphics were nice, but the gameworld didn't allow for much interaction (can't swim, can't open doors and thus can't explore buildings) animations were stiff, everyone looked the same, there wasn't a lot of draw to the game after having raised a character to level 20 aside from HoH PvP and GvG.
GW1 is entirely irrelevant. It hasn't had a major content update in close to 5 years, pick up PvP is absolutely dead, and it is pretty much only still played by diehard fans. If you bring up seeing several players around in outposts, lets not forget the game only has a single server.
Here's my confused thought process on GW2 hype:
0) I'm confused about the GW2 hype
1) No monthly fee (for those without jobs)! Awesome! No grind (for those that hate that) yeah! Dynamic quests. Yeah! RvRvR PVP Awesome! GW2 gonna rock this world!
2) Wait a minute, most of those people who are most excited about GW2 also loved GW1
3) I personally thought GW1 was horrid. Literally one of the worst games I've ever played (not trolling here, honestly)
4) Hmmm. Now I'm not so sure about GW2. Many of those hyping it loved a game I hated.
5) I'm confused again
really? people might listen to your arguement if you didn't come across like a conceited twat..play the game and then feel free to share your opinion..otherwise everything you say is just your pre conditioned monkey brain resisting against something that is new.
I played GW1. And I get the people that think $10-15 dollars a month is a big deal. Wasn't actually trying to be a "twat" because I get it. I put the "without jobs" just to clarify I personally don't care about the fee. I also don't personally care about a little grind which is why I added that qualifier as well. My point 1) was actually admitting I can get the hype sometimes. But then the rest of the points confuse me again.
And not to be snobby but monthly fee really is chump change to an adult with a decent job. Compare it to the cost of a night out with the family or even a movie. I pay almost $200 a month on my cable bill LOL.
i have a decent job and i'm happy to forego paying $15 a month. delighted, even. you might be able to afford a 200 buck cable bill, but with mortgages, rates, kids and all the rubbish that goes with interest rates, i'm absolutely chuffed to get the bargain of a lifetime which is an awesome game for the price of the box. you might think $15 is nothing. chump change to you. congratulations. some of us don't think so. not that it would have stopped me paying it, but for me it's just an added extra bonus that tells me anet loves me and respects me as a customer.
for me, it also works to solidify their ability to change the game as they want. to keep the integrity of their game without giving in to "do what i wantz or i quitz and take my moneyz."
gw1 was ok. not great. gw2 looks revolutionary. no matter whether you like or hate it, it will change everything in the mmo genre, and for that it's a truly great game already. because if it doesn't live up to half what it promises, those promises have shined a light on the repetitive garbage we've been fed this past 5 years in the mmo industry.
I think the advantage of B2P, for the consumer, is pretty obvious. For the publisher, not having a monthy fee means you keep more of your fans as active fans, where as with the subscription model, most players who buy the box have canceled with in a few months and usually will not return.
Under B2P, the developer needs to offer enough positive game play for the buyer to feel the purchase was worth the price. When compared to non-MMO games, the amount of content provided by GW2 is just completely massive. I would think that the majority of players who get more than a month or two out of GW2 will consider it as having been worth the price and will be likely to spread positive word of mouth and return to purchase future expansions.
With out the pressure of constantly justifying an ongoing subscription fee, players can see their play time wax and wane and never have to face the question of whether or not it's time to just cut ties with the game. I know there are a few MMOs I would have continued to play casually, if not for the subscription fee, but my anticipated level of play just did not justify the ongoing layout.
GW2 is not MMO-Light, just because it's B2P. It looks to offer more content at launch than perhaps any MMO since WoW. Automatic level scaling of your character for lower level content, (while earning XP and loot based on your true level), means that even once you've reached the level cap, almost the entire game's content is still available and worth while. So, not only is the B2P business model great for those who will play GW2 on a more casual schedule that may include breaks from the game, but those of us looking for a game to play continually over the long term really can look forward to unprecedented value from GW2.
Don't discount the cash shop for providing revenue for NCSoft. Though there will be nothing you have to buy to enjoy play or be competative with others, I expect that the cash shop, with it's mostly cosmetic items and various account services, (not the least of which will be added character slots), will be very popular. I also expect that many players who do play continualy over the long term will look to make purchases in order to show their appreciation.
With a P2P, subscription title, a game needs to immediately establish that it's likely to be worth paying to play over the months ahead and then needs to continue to actually justify the fee every month moving forward. People who aren't immediately convinced cancel before the end of the free month and typically carry resentment and negativity for the game from that point forward. Players who do enter the active subscription phase continue to weigh the game vs. the subscription fee and will also develop resentment towards a game, (and even the developer and publisher), if the game fails to keep on justifying the fee. With very rare exception, most of these P2P subscription MMOs collapse under the weight of resentment and negativity their very business model encourages and almost ensures.
Not only is B2P a great model for GW2 that will likely lead to levels of success that would not be possible otherwise, but if they actually succeed in offering more game and more fun than the majority of P2P games, I think most P2P games are going to find it much, much harder to continue to justify their ongoing subscription fees.
The only "buy 2 play" games I have ever played have been loads of single player RPGs, one CORPG, one ARPG, and a wide assortment of adventure games. I haven't yet experienced a b2p MMO, so GW2 will be a first for me. I think I would do better to answer the question of "which" after I have experienced both. I don't mind p2p, and I even played EQ2 that is p2p with a cosmetic RMT shop and didn't mind it a bit, BUT....I felt like (at the time) EQ2 was offering me a LOT for my money. Generally I would not approve of p2p with RMT microtransactions as well.
I think I will prefer the buy to play model, but....I really can't say for sure until I'm IN it. Buy to play with cosmetic RMT and some (SOME) DLC seems okay to me. But I expect those things to be like expansions, not tiny little blips of nothingness ala Dragon Age Origins. That game burned me pretty good on DLC. It made me almost detest it. But I do rather enjoy a cosmetic shop.
I left RIFT to play LoL and was like yay a free to play game I spent over $200 on LoL within the first 3 months because it wasn't forced cash shop and was something I wanted not needed...
I can see myself going buck wild in a cosmetic cash shop in GW2 if they offer great value for what I purchase.
that being said I can see how if done correctly Anet will make a killing on the item shop after they made a massive profit on the box sells.
I left RIFT to play LoL and was like yay a free to play game I spent over $200 on LoL within the first 3 months because it wasn't forced cash shop and was something I wanted not needed...
I can see myself going buck wild in a cosmetic cash shop in GW2 if they offer great value for what I purchase.
that being said I can see how if done correctly Anet will make a killing on the item shop after they made a massive profit on the box sells.
I totally agree. I enjoyed the Station Cash Shop in EQ2 and bought some cool looking appearance gear in it and some furniture. Of course, that was over the course of 7 years, so it's not like they were really making a killing off of me in the cash shop, but I did ENJOY it and the options it provided....nothing game changing as far as stats and whatnot, but just stuff I considered to be fun.
I'm actually looking forward to playing a B2P game with a shop. I think it will just be all the more fun, but you know....that's my opinion and it's not all that popular around these forums here. lol
What are your thoughts about monthly subs? needed or not, why?
I don´t think monthly subs are needed today with the current cost of bandwidth and servers. That is why FPS games nowadays host the games themselves instead of letting the users host them like they did a few years back (and to stop cheating and guarantee a good connection of course).
But I can still pay monthly fees for a good game, and I am willing to pay for not having an itemshop, better customer support and free updates (preferably including the expansions like in CoH).
But I like B2P and I think GW2 and Class 4 will prove the concept to none believers.
What I don't like is when P2P games add itemshops, I rather have them raise the fee than charging extra for content.
Most people I know have been gaming for many many years and have partaken in many of the games over the last few years. Some of them Pay to play some free to play. thousands of people played LoTro when it was a sub and now when it went free many more who would have never looked at the game prior are now playing it. Many games have seen greater profit and greater freedom for players by switching to a free to play platform.
back in the day it cost a ton to run servers and maintain the high speed internet to connect games online which is mainly why monthly subs were needed. Other reasons did exist but the main reason was to maintain servers and connectivity..
I've seen many people say that because GW2 is Box purchase then free after makes it not worth playing. Others are happy that its not a sub after purchase. Why do you think it makes a difference if it does not have a monthly sub? Do you feel the box price is not enough and the monthly sub is needed for some reason?
Developers and Publishers in other games have recently proven that a great game does not need a sub to maintain good support and quality updates. Anet has even proven that by offering Box price on original and for expansions that it can more then cover quality support and maintain quality server maintanence / content / expansions.
I personally have played nearly all games which have been on the market in the last 10 years. From F2P, B2P, and P2P. I know that the F2P games attract a less desirable type of player and that in the past P2P has seemed to provide higher quality content expansions as well as customer service / support and an all around better quality game.
Sharing in the questionable reasoning on no continued sub fee after box purchase makes me curious as to continued income and continued quality after release.
At the time GW was released at box price only and compared to the games on the market at its time, it was above most in quality and continued content.
The market has proven that the free to play model with cosmetic cash shop drives higher revenue then a monthly sub. So for not having a monthly sub why would that make this any less of a game or not intrigue people even more so to play it?
My thought is I'd rather see this game have a box price + cosmetic only cash shop which gives Anet MORE money then sub monthly on average so that Anet can provide further quality customer service / content expansions then stay with the sub model which has proven to be un needed to help a company produce what people think will be missing without it.
When they compared monthly subs vs cash shop they found that monthly sub = $15 a month but on average players in cash shop models spent $20+ a month so with this knowledge Anets model will bring them more income.
What are your thoughts about monthly subs? needed or not, why?
When you have no Subscriptions, you arn't trying to tailor to the masses or to create a invisible grind just to keep the subscribers.
The way GW2 does it is they can challenge the current MMO format without trying to steal WOW players, they can create the game they want to create. They can make Dungeons extra hard, because when you quit, you aren't quitting, you are just taking a break. They don't have to tune down the difficulties because the masses wants an easy mode, they aren't losing anything by making dungeons even harder and more frustrating. They balance the classes because they want to, not because they have to or risk losing subscribers. Its because to have a better experience they are balancing them.
These calls to nerfs that is so common in every MMO will have no weight because you can quit anytime you want because once you buy it, you own it. With the PVP scaling to full level 80 with all skills means, if you find one character class too strong, you can always create that same class and play in PVP without having to spend anytime doing PVE just to level.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
GW1 graphics were good for the time it was released, and with the content from all 3 expansion packs it has far more content than any other MMO I can think of aside from Everquest 1 with its 18 expansions.
Short lifespan? People still play the game for competitive PvP. The outposts still have heaps of people doing all the hard mode missions to try and complete all the content. Considering that the game was released in 2005 and last expansion was in 2007, the game is doing very well in terms of lifespan.
Upon returning to WoW it took me less than 2 months to level a new character to 85 and complete every single dungeon and raid. The same couldnt be said for GW1, theres way more content.
I am going to keep a watch on Diablo 3. I know it isn't a "mmorpg" BUT you will need to be connected to blizzard at all times to play. That right there proves you dont need that $15 for bandwidth cost. If they start adding $10 dlc's every few months or even some free patches and upgrades... well then what is the difference besides game play? When did MMO start meaning $15 a month instead of Massive multiplayer on-line?
(oh, and I am NOT buying Diablo 3. Loved the other two, but I refuse to buy an ubisoft game with that drm in it, not going to change my mind because blizzard suddenly says it is a good idea)
Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?
I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan. Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.
Assuming you were talking about GW1 and not 2:
That's your opinion only. I personally, along with many others, found GW1's content beefy and engaging for months and years after the initial purchase. Because you didn't feel the same way doesn't mean that the game didn't deliver. It just didn't deliver to you.
That being said, I question the notion that P2P delivers more simply because of the pricing model. WoW has released four expansions over a period of approximately 8 years. That's a two year wait between them (on average). At $15 per month, subscribers were paying $360 before they saw any new material coming out. And then they paid a box fee on top of it all. With GW1, which released a few months after WoW, there were two full expansions before Burning Crusade even hit the shelves, and then we only paid for the box. Everything else was still free.
You can compare the quality and quantity of those expansions if you like and you may well come to the conclusion that BC took longer to complete than the other two combined. However, once you remove the artificial treadmill gear grind of raiding, it's lead disappears. But again, if you didn't enjoy GW1 as a game, you aren't going to see it that way.
I'm using WoW here only because it's the Mac Daddy of P2P games, but the amount of enjoyable playtime I got from GW1 is comparable to any of the subscription games I've played, regardless of how much I enjoyed them. I think the only P2P game I played more than GW1 was City of Villains (back before it was joined at the hip to CoH), and that's only because I was a hopeless badge whore.
So anyway, I dispute that P2P games automatically provide more entertainment value than games released under another model. That's not been my experience. And really, my experience is the only one that counts -- just like everyone else.
Oh, and as for cheaply made, at the time, I thought it was the prettiest game world I'd ever stepped foot in. Today, it still holds it's own against many, more contemporary releases, especially pre-searing, which is still the definition of idyllic.
Comments
well the majority of people I know who are "hyping" gw2 absolutely agree with you on GW 1.
I personal played GW and hated every second I spent in the game. Most everyone I've gamed with in the guilds I've been in feel the same way about Guild Wars. Clunky, Mechanical movements, just very limited.
GW2 on the other hand is offering everything nearly everyone has wanted in a game. Most of the spotlight reviews I've seen by critical reviewers have proven its typically above and beyond anything they expected compared to anything on the current market.
That being said GW sucked, imo, was and is HORRIBLE. GW2 looks amazing, offers more than any game out or even expected for release, and on paper nothing can compete... Nothing. and without a SUB hell ya!!!
Link 1 added 11 new quests
Link 2 added 9 new quests
Almost half a year between the two updates. Astounding
Thank you for answering my question.
I played GW1. And I get the people that think $10-15 dollars a month is a big deal. Wasn't actually trying to be a "twat" because I get it. I put the "without jobs" just to clarify I personally don't care about the fee. I also don't personally care about a little grind which is why I added that qualifier as well. My point 1) was actually admitting I can get the hype sometimes. But then the rest of the points confuse me again.
And not to be snobby but monthly fee really is chump change to an adult with a decent job. Compare it to the cost of a night out with the family or even a movie. I pay almost $200 a month on my cable bill LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
No one is forcing you to play the game man! if you don't like what you see then just don't play it, Otherwise do as us sane people do and judge the game once it's actually released.
Well I've never played Guild Wars 1, because I knew I would have not enjoyed playing it. Just doesn't have what I want from RPG, let alone and Online one. However I'm excited for Guild Wars 2, based on what it has to offer (mainly that it is different from GW1). That should help give you a different perspective of things.
Your trying to compare a CORPG to an MMO, there is no comparison, GW1 has actually had plenty of game content updates, the most recent was "The winds of change", it also has plenty of PvP and a lot of people still do PvP both competetivly and casually. Anet still actively supports GW1 and you are correct that they havnt had a boxed expansion for a while, they have probably felt they have taken the game as far as they think they can, and also a lot of their resources have been put into the development of GW2 the past 5 years.
Getting to level cap was easy and fast, the game was based on skill, there was no need to raise cap beyond 20, there probably was good reason not to put levels into the game at all really.
Maybe we should all follow your reasoning and start comparing BF3, COD and other server based games to MMO's.
Stay on topic - this is about the topic outlined in the OP. Do not derail the thread.
One guy(SuperX) is oblivious highly oblivious yet stubborn, there is no reasoning or no need to waste time on such. The other is trying to prove a point and was doing good but fucked up when saying "For no jobs." come on Gain you know good ol well how to word that "For people who just don't want to play subs, for people w/o jobs, for people who just wanna have fun w/o having to put in credit card info." So your right but wrong in how it came off.
Any way just for a recap on what's been posted, food for thought(I'm going to keep saying this because that thread amused me)...
Read my signature and please someone come up with legit counters than attempting to be and remain oblivious about the Game itself.
There is nothing else needed to be said honestly unless it's about why subs are needed, not needed, in all honestly they aren't but what ever, but please continue the arguments lol.
Take care and enjoy yourselves.
(Remember read the link in my signature for a recap it's already on the first page.)
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Thanks for that... kinda forgot what the topic was about, after all that forum PvP.
But yeah, subs will seem irrelevant after GW2. If the rest of the game is as good as the beta (or better).
You should turn it into a link people can click on, like mine.
i have a decent job and i'm happy to forego paying $15 a month. delighted, even. you might be able to afford a 200 buck cable bill, but with mortgages, rates, kids and all the rubbish that goes with interest rates, i'm absolutely chuffed to get the bargain of a lifetime which is an awesome game for the price of the box. you might think $15 is nothing. chump change to you. congratulations. some of us don't think so. not that it would have stopped me paying it, but for me it's just an added extra bonus that tells me anet loves me and respects me as a customer.
for me, it also works to solidify their ability to change the game as they want. to keep the integrity of their game without giving in to "do what i wantz or i quitz and take my moneyz."
gw1 was ok. not great. gw2 looks revolutionary. no matter whether you like or hate it, it will change everything in the mmo genre, and for that it's a truly great game already. because if it doesn't live up to half what it promises, those promises have shined a light on the repetitive garbage we've been fed this past 5 years in the mmo industry.
I think the advantage of B2P, for the consumer, is pretty obvious. For the publisher, not having a monthy fee means you keep more of your fans as active fans, where as with the subscription model, most players who buy the box have canceled with in a few months and usually will not return.
Under B2P, the developer needs to offer enough positive game play for the buyer to feel the purchase was worth the price. When compared to non-MMO games, the amount of content provided by GW2 is just completely massive. I would think that the majority of players who get more than a month or two out of GW2 will consider it as having been worth the price and will be likely to spread positive word of mouth and return to purchase future expansions.
With out the pressure of constantly justifying an ongoing subscription fee, players can see their play time wax and wane and never have to face the question of whether or not it's time to just cut ties with the game. I know there are a few MMOs I would have continued to play casually, if not for the subscription fee, but my anticipated level of play just did not justify the ongoing layout.
GW2 is not MMO-Light, just because it's B2P. It looks to offer more content at launch than perhaps any MMO since WoW. Automatic level scaling of your character for lower level content, (while earning XP and loot based on your true level), means that even once you've reached the level cap, almost the entire game's content is still available and worth while. So, not only is the B2P business model great for those who will play GW2 on a more casual schedule that may include breaks from the game, but those of us looking for a game to play continually over the long term really can look forward to unprecedented value from GW2.
Don't discount the cash shop for providing revenue for NCSoft. Though there will be nothing you have to buy to enjoy play or be competative with others, I expect that the cash shop, with it's mostly cosmetic items and various account services, (not the least of which will be added character slots), will be very popular. I also expect that many players who do play continualy over the long term will look to make purchases in order to show their appreciation.
With a P2P, subscription title, a game needs to immediately establish that it's likely to be worth paying to play over the months ahead and then needs to continue to actually justify the fee every month moving forward. People who aren't immediately convinced cancel before the end of the free month and typically carry resentment and negativity for the game from that point forward. Players who do enter the active subscription phase continue to weigh the game vs. the subscription fee and will also develop resentment towards a game, (and even the developer and publisher), if the game fails to keep on justifying the fee. With very rare exception, most of these P2P subscription MMOs collapse under the weight of resentment and negativity their very business model encourages and almost ensures.
Not only is B2P a great model for GW2 that will likely lead to levels of success that would not be possible otherwise, but if they actually succeed in offering more game and more fun than the majority of P2P games, I think most P2P games are going to find it much, much harder to continue to justify their ongoing subscription fees.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
The only "buy 2 play" games I have ever played have been loads of single player RPGs, one CORPG, one ARPG, and a wide assortment of adventure games. I haven't yet experienced a b2p MMO, so GW2 will be a first for me. I think I would do better to answer the question of "which" after I have experienced both. I don't mind p2p, and I even played EQ2 that is p2p with a cosmetic RMT shop and didn't mind it a bit, BUT....I felt like (at the time) EQ2 was offering me a LOT for my money. Generally I would not approve of p2p with RMT microtransactions as well.
I think I will prefer the buy to play model, but....I really can't say for sure until I'm IN it. Buy to play with cosmetic RMT and some (SOME) DLC seems okay to me. But I expect those things to be like expansions, not tiny little blips of nothingness ala Dragon Age Origins. That game burned me pretty good on DLC. It made me almost detest it. But I do rather enjoy a cosmetic shop.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
@fiontar ; great great post thank you for adding that!
*just1opinion
I left RIFT to play LoL and was like yay a free to play game I spent over $200 on LoL within the first 3 months because it wasn't forced cash shop and was something I wanted not needed...
I can see myself going buck wild in a cosmetic cash shop in GW2 if they offer great value for what I purchase.
that being said I can see how if done correctly Anet will make a killing on the item shop after they made a massive profit on the box sells.
I've never purchased a DLC or anything from a cash shop for any game. However, if GW2 is as good as I think it will be... I could justify it.
I totally agree. I enjoyed the Station Cash Shop in EQ2 and bought some cool looking appearance gear in it and some furniture. Of course, that was over the course of 7 years, so it's not like they were really making a killing off of me in the cash shop, but I did ENJOY it and the options it provided....nothing game changing as far as stats and whatnot, but just stuff I considered to be fun.
I'm actually looking forward to playing a B2P game with a shop. I think it will just be all the more fun, but you know....that's my opinion and it's not all that popular around these forums here. lol
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I don´t think monthly subs are needed today with the current cost of bandwidth and servers. That is why FPS games nowadays host the games themselves instead of letting the users host them like they did a few years back (and to stop cheating and guarantee a good connection of course).
But I can still pay monthly fees for a good game, and I am willing to pay for not having an itemshop, better customer support and free updates (preferably including the expansions like in CoH).
But I like B2P and I think GW2 and Class 4 will prove the concept to none believers.
What I don't like is when P2P games add itemshops, I rather have them raise the fee than charging extra for content.
When you have no Subscriptions, you arn't trying to tailor to the masses or to create a invisible grind just to keep the subscribers.
The way GW2 does it is they can challenge the current MMO format without trying to steal WOW players, they can create the game they want to create. They can make Dungeons extra hard, because when you quit, you aren't quitting, you are just taking a break. They don't have to tune down the difficulties because the masses wants an easy mode, they aren't losing anything by making dungeons even harder and more frustrating. They balance the classes because they want to, not because they have to or risk losing subscribers. Its because to have a better experience they are balancing them.
These calls to nerfs that is so common in every MMO will have no weight because you can quit anytime you want because once you buy it, you own it. With the PVP scaling to full level 80 with all skills means, if you find one character class too strong, you can always create that same class and play in PVP without having to spend anytime doing PVE just to level.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
For me there is a more important issue in sub vs no-sub. More important than who pays for content and how.
Stop buying boxes in GW1/GW2 - play the content you paid for how long you want
Stop buying boxes in WoW - play the content you paid for as long as you also pay the sub
Stop paying sub in WoW - no playing for you at all, even for the xpacs you paid for
GW1 graphics were good for the time it was released, and with the content from all 3 expansion packs it has far more content than any other MMO I can think of aside from Everquest 1 with its 18 expansions.
Short lifespan? People still play the game for competitive PvP. The outposts still have heaps of people doing all the hard mode missions to try and complete all the content. Considering that the game was released in 2005 and last expansion was in 2007, the game is doing very well in terms of lifespan.
Upon returning to WoW it took me less than 2 months to level a new character to 85 and complete every single dungeon and raid. The same couldnt be said for GW1, theres way more content.
Game good, people pay. Company profits.
Game is shit, no one will play even if its free. The game will close down eventually.
f2p,b2p,p2p it doesnt matter.
I am going to keep a watch on Diablo 3. I know it isn't a "mmorpg" BUT you will need to be connected to blizzard at all times to play. That right there proves you dont need that $15 for bandwidth cost. If they start adding $10 dlc's every few months or even some free patches and upgrades... well then what is the difference besides game play? When did MMO start meaning $15 a month instead of Massive multiplayer on-line?
(oh, and I am NOT buying Diablo 3. Loved the other two, but I refuse to buy an ubisoft game with that drm in it, not going to change my mind because blizzard suddenly says it is a good idea)
Assuming you were talking about GW1 and not 2:
That's your opinion only. I personally, along with many others, found GW1's content beefy and engaging for months and years after the initial purchase. Because you didn't feel the same way doesn't mean that the game didn't deliver. It just didn't deliver to you.
That being said, I question the notion that P2P delivers more simply because of the pricing model. WoW has released four expansions over a period of approximately 8 years. That's a two year wait between them (on average). At $15 per month, subscribers were paying $360 before they saw any new material coming out. And then they paid a box fee on top of it all. With GW1, which released a few months after WoW, there were two full expansions before Burning Crusade even hit the shelves, and then we only paid for the box. Everything else was still free.
You can compare the quality and quantity of those expansions if you like and you may well come to the conclusion that BC took longer to complete than the other two combined. However, once you remove the artificial treadmill gear grind of raiding, it's lead disappears. But again, if you didn't enjoy GW1 as a game, you aren't going to see it that way.
I'm using WoW here only because it's the Mac Daddy of P2P games, but the amount of enjoyable playtime I got from GW1 is comparable to any of the subscription games I've played, regardless of how much I enjoyed them. I think the only P2P game I played more than GW1 was City of Villains (back before it was joined at the hip to CoH), and that's only because I was a hopeless badge whore.
So anyway, I dispute that P2P games automatically provide more entertainment value than games released under another model. That's not been my experience. And really, my experience is the only one that counts -- just like everyone else.
Oh, and as for cheaply made, at the time, I thought it was the prettiest game world I'd ever stepped foot in. Today, it still holds it's own against many, more contemporary releases, especially pre-searing, which is still the definition of idyllic.