I am going to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I think it's actually good to bring the game in more closely with SW Lore by making force sensetive characters.
One of the hurdles to a SW IP based MMO is balance. In an MMO setting all classes need to maintain a reaonable balance. This is not what Jedi are. Jedi are super human. In order to balace comabt between jedi and non jedi you have to break SW Lore. You either have to water down the Jedi or you have to make non Jedi stupidly op (by human standards) to compete with Jedi.
2 Examles: Scene in Empire Strikes Back where Lando betrays Han Solo and turns him over to Vader. Vader swats away Han's blaster bolts and blaster like he's waving off a mosquito. The Scene in the 2nd triolgy where Kenobi confronts Fett. This was not a fight on equal footing. Fett was pulling out all the stops and using every trick in the book. Not to take out Kenobi, but to make an opening to escape, to get away.
Balanceing PVP between Jedi and Smuggler or Jedi and BH, is not really Star Wars. But now, with everyone being a force user, you can make inroads back to actual lore.
Originally posted by Zekiah Really? So, you believe that every living being on the planet is a hero?
Nope, I believe that heroic actions are not dictated or limited by the number of people who are taking part of them.
World war 2 vets are Heroes.
See?
Not all world war 2 vets were heroes, some were, often those who got medals for heroism, the majority went in there did their job under horrible conditions and were undoubtedly brave, and some were cowards.
It's the fact that some went above and beyond the call of duty that made them heroes.
Not all world war 2 vets were heroes, some were, often those who got medals for heroism, the majority went in there did their job under horrible conditions and were undoubtedly brave, and some were cowards.
Did the number of them getting medals detract or lessen from those who already recieved medals?
I'm all against "generalizing" no problem, my point here is that again, an action should be judged by its individual merits. Which is just what you said. If an action is judged heroic, then the person doing it IS heroic. And the number of people who do Heroic things does not make it harder for an action to be judged "heroic"
I think its great that Bioware is expanding on character abilities, this adds tons of customization in character progression, but as Sovrath has said, if everyone is special, than nobody is.
I get what Sovrath is saying, but that's all something we won't know much about til' later.
But I WOULD be bold enough to speculate that whatever cross-class powers you can choose from, it won't be some smorgasbord of being able to pick the "best powers" of X class, Y class, and Z class.
Matter of fact, I would bet that any that you choose will probably be more about visual effect than utility.
For example, you may be able to pick the Smuggler's ranged stun power as a Trooper, but will probably be on the same CD as your Trooper's own ranged stun power.
Could be wrong... only speculating.
This is what I was trying to say in my post but you succeeded far better than I. The fact is ...we really dont have a clue yet exactly how it will be executed for "Legacy" skills so i really can't understand all the hostility from some other posters. Oh..nvm..this is TOR we're talking about...now I get it.
Ok then, so everyone on the planet is a closet-hero? Waiting for the right time to change outfits?
Again, a heroic action is heroic in nature, thats how its defined by websters sir, you can invent your own definition if you like... but thats how it is defined.
if 10 people do something heroic, its still heroic.
if 100 people do something heroic, its still heroic.
if 1000
if 100000
if 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
the number does not mater, the action does.
So, yes or no, do you believe everyone on the planet is a hero in waiting?
Answer me this.
If one person dies for his country is he a hero? Well since it is self sacrafice, by definition, yes he is.
now if 10,000 people die for their country, are they not heroes?
By your words, no.
I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed.
At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Not all world war 2 vets were heroes, some were, often those who got medals for heroism, the majority went in there did their job under horrible conditions and were undoubtedly brave, and some were cowards.
Did the number of them getting medals detract or lessen from those who already recieved medals?
I'm all against "generalizing" no problem, my point here is that again, an action should be judged by its individual merits. Which is just what you said. If an action is judged heroic, then the person doing it IS heroic. And the number of people who do Heroic things does not make it harder for an action to be judged "heroic"
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
That makes sense. I'd like to have something cool but not overpowering, and those 2 things are certainly pretty cool. And in most cases, they will be less powerful than the original classes version, since no tree enhancements will be available(?).
And do you think the player base is going to be content with "fluff" powers? I think not.
I can't wait to see this snowball at the end of the hill.
We're talking about one feature in the Legacy system
and players should expect some unbalancing superpowerful attack because...?
It's not like they have to go out of their way to get Legacy XP. It just accumulates, even when you only have one character.
If the powers the devs plan on giving players are too weak, the player base will whine and complain until it morphs into standard, usable powers. Players are not going to be content with fluff force powers, period.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed.
At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
Originally posted by Zekiah I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed. At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
I'm ignoring your baiting tactics.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed.
At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
I'm ignoring your baiting tactics.
I'm not baiting anyone, I just disagree with you that everyone is a hero. I happen to believe that there are cowards and observers among us.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Originally posted by RefMinor Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed.
At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
I'm ignoring your baiting tactics.
Erm...no I disagree completely.
What defines heroic or non-heroic is your frame of reference. The only thing that makes your martyrdom example heroic is that it is UNCOMMON. If every single soldier martyr'd themselves off to save their comrades, then it would be very heroic...in fact it would be stupid and there would be no army left .
You can apply this logic anywhere. The adventurer who slays the dragon terrorizing a town of innocents is herioc. But the adventurer who slays the dragon after he waits in line for 5 other adventurers to slay it before him is not very heroic.
And really, your frame of reference defines FAR more than just heroic and non-heroic. It also defines good and evil...order and chaos...right and wrong...etc.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
I just said that the number o fpeople doing a heroic action does not diminish the heroic ness of the action.
Though I supose if literally EVERYONE did the same action to where ti became normal, then yes, it would lose its heroic value.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
But you contradict yourself there. On one hand you say being a hero isn't normal behavior but then turn around and say it is under a certain situation.
That's a little more like "splitting hairs" than your example.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.
Sure, every PLAYER can be.
If you disagree then how can you be a hero in a single player game?
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
But you contradict yourself there. On one hand you say being a hero isn't normal behavior but then turn around and say it is under a certain situation.
That's a little more like "splitting hairs" than your example.
Sure, I answered your "splitting hairs" "what if" tiny possibility chance question.
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
The point is, the gaming industry on the whole caved in to the theory that "everyone should be gods and heroes" and that's exactly what you're going to get with SWTOR. Everyone is going to have these powers so if you think that an entire universe of force-choking people running around is "Star Warsy" then by all means, have at it. Personally, I find the idea revolting, just as choosing a Jedi from start in NGE was.
Perhaps one day MMOs will just let you start at max level, max powers, max gear and max money. Why not? They're almost there as it is, getting to max level in a week is common practice in this down-trodden industry.
Is that the point? Or is that YOUR point?
When they started making The Old Republic they stated it was a time when there was A LOT of force users running around.
I bet you assumed they ment Jedi and Sith didn't ya?
Nope they ment FORCE USERS.
Which it seems like a lot of people keep confusing the two.
And you think a universe of force-chokers is all about the Star Wars I take it. There's a BIG difference in "a lot" and "everyone".
Considering the amount of characters that is played by us (you are not necessarily included in that) compared to the amount of people (of all races) in the fictional universe we are playng in.
I would say that we are not even 'a lot' perhaps closer to a minimal fraction of the total amount of people.
Let us be really generous (and I really mean really generous) and state that we (the subscribers) charecterise 10 000 000 people in the Star Wars universe and we also limit the total amount to the Coruscant citizen count 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion).
And as you already have realised, we (the players) do not portray 10 000 000 people and the total population of the universe is alot bigger than 1 trillion.
So no, not everyone, not even remotely close to everyone.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
I'm still not sure what this has to do with everyone having force powers and how this some how detracts from how heroic people feel, its starting to seem a lot more like you are going after my personal beliefs, which I'm fine with, and more than happy to explain, yet I still think its off topic.
I believe that a hero is someone who does extraordinary actions, so yes, if EVERYONE did an action that was extraordinary to the extent it became ordinary then it would no longer be a heroic action.
That is logical.
however, if a large number of people, number un determaned of course, were to do a same extraordinary action, say if it were over a long peroid of time to where it didn't become "normal" for this action to occur, then still all of them would be heros, as their actions would be heroic.
We'd have to get to the nature of what makes actions "heroic" and how many times you can do an action that is "heroic" before it is no longer considered "heroic".
Which would probably be something better left to a philosophy doctorial candidate.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.
Sure, every PLAYER can be.
If you disagree then how can you be a hero in a single player game?
because theres only one player?
There are a lot of NPC's and enemies right?
In an SP game, the world is completely populated by "average Joe" NPCs. So yes, it's easy for the player to be a hero in an SP game.
But in an MMORPG, the world is populated by players and NPCs. And typically, the NPCs are so static they are more like mannequins...so I don't feel like they really count. They fail at projecting the illusion of a real society, they are more like quest dispensers.
Then you have the players, each and every one of which is "the hero." And it's ridiculous. You see a line of "heroes" all waiting to kill the evil gnoll chief terrorizing the village, or collect the 10 flowers Bob needs for his daughter's cure, or kill the 20 orcs that have been burning the farmland. It's ridiculous.
Comments
I am going to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I think it's actually good to bring the game in more closely with SW Lore by making force sensetive characters.
One of the hurdles to a SW IP based MMO is balance. In an MMO setting all classes need to maintain a reaonable balance. This is not what Jedi are. Jedi are super human. In order to balace comabt between jedi and non jedi you have to break SW Lore. You either have to water down the Jedi or you have to make non Jedi stupidly op (by human standards) to compete with Jedi.
2 Examles: Scene in Empire Strikes Back where Lando betrays Han Solo and turns him over to Vader. Vader swats away Han's blaster bolts and blaster like he's waving off a mosquito. The Scene in the 2nd triolgy where Kenobi confronts Fett. This was not a fight on equal footing. Fett was pulling out all the stops and using every trick in the book. Not to take out Kenobi, but to make an opening to escape, to get away.
Balanceing PVP between Jedi and Smuggler or Jedi and BH, is not really Star Wars. But now, with everyone being a force user, you can make inroads back to actual lore.
Nope, I believe that heroic actions are not dictated or limited by the number of people who are taking part of them.
World war 2 vets are Heroes.
See?
Not all world war 2 vets were heroes, some were, often those who got medals for heroism, the majority went in there did their job under horrible conditions and were undoubtedly brave, and some were cowards.
It's the fact that some went above and beyond the call of duty that made them heroes.Did the number of them getting medals detract or lessen from those who already recieved medals?
I'm all against "generalizing" no problem, my point here is that again, an action should be judged by its individual merits. Which is just what you said. If an action is judged heroic, then the person doing it IS heroic. And the number of people who do Heroic things does not make it harder for an action to be judged "heroic"
This is what I was trying to say in my post but you succeeded far better than I. The fact is ...we really dont have a clue yet exactly how it will be executed for "Legacy" skills so i really can't understand all the hostility from some other posters. Oh..nvm..this is TOR we're talking about...now I get it.
I suppose it would depend on how they died and for what cause. I'd hardly call someone a hero who was carpet-bombed.
At any rate, if you believe everyone is a hero in the making then you clearly don't understand what it means to be a hero. Your vision of being a hero is common and average.
[heer-oh] Show IPAhe·ro
noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for hisbrave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities orhas performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model orideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology .
a.
a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who oftencame to be honored as a divinity.
b.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of specialstrength, courage, or ability.
c.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Did the number of them getting medals detract or lessen from those who already recieved medals?
I'm all against "generalizing" no problem, my point here is that again, an action should be judged by its individual merits. Which is just what you said. If an action is judged heroic, then the person doing it IS heroic. And the number of people who do Heroic things does not make it harder for an action to be judged "heroic"
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.If the powers the devs plan on giving players are too weak, the player base will whine and complain until it morphs into standard, usable powers. Players are not going to be content with fluff force powers, period.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
I'm ignoring your baiting tactics.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
Cool story bro?
My point is still the same, say a man does a heroic action, dies so his comrads can survive, then say that action is repeated 10000 times.
Are all 10000 of them heroes?
Yes.
The point remains, a hero is a hero because of his actions. And those actions will make someone heroic no mater how many times that action is done. A Hero is a hero even if there are 30000 Heroes standing next to him.
I'm ignoring your baiting tactics.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101I'm not baiting anyone, I just disagree with you that everyone is a hero. I happen to believe that there are cowards and observers among us.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Erm...no I disagree completely.
What defines heroic or non-heroic is your frame of reference. The only thing that makes your martyrdom example heroic is that it is UNCOMMON. If every single soldier martyr'd themselves off to save their comrades, then it would be very heroic...in fact it would be stupid and there would be no army left
.
You can apply this logic anywhere. The adventurer who slays the dragon terrorizing a town of innocents is herioc. But the adventurer who slays the dragon after he waits in line for 5 other adventurers to slay it before him is not very heroic.
And really, your frame of reference defines FAR more than just heroic and non-heroic. It also defines good and evil...order and chaos...right and wrong...etc.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
I just said that the number o fpeople doing a heroic action does not diminish the heroic ness of the action.
Though I supose if literally EVERYONE did the same action to where ti became normal, then yes, it would lose its heroic value.
But you contradict yourself there. On one hand you say being a hero isn't normal behavior but then turn around and say it is under a certain situation.
That's a little more like "splitting hairs" than your example.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Sure, every PLAYER can be.
If you disagree then how can you be a hero in a single player game?
because theres only one player?
There are a lot of NPC's and enemies right?
Sure, I answered your "splitting hairs" "what if" tiny possibility chance question.
That some how contradicts me?
don't think so...
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Considering the amount of characters that is played by us (you are not necessarily included in that) compared to the amount of people (of all races) in the fictional universe we are playng in.
I would say that we are not even 'a lot' perhaps closer to a minimal fraction of the total amount of people.
Let us be really generous (and I really mean really generous) and state that we (the subscribers) charecterise 10 000 000 people in the Star Wars universe and we also limit the total amount to the Coruscant citizen count 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion).
10 000 000 divided by 1 000 000 000 000 equals 0,00001.
0,00001 multiplied with 100 equals 0.001
That is merely 0.001% that we portray.
And as you already have realised, we (the players) do not portray 10 000 000 people and the total population of the universe is alot bigger than 1 trillion.
So no, not everyone, not even remotely close to everyone.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I'm still not sure what this has to do with everyone having force powers and how this some how detracts from how heroic people feel, its starting to seem a lot more like you are going after my personal beliefs, which I'm fine with, and more than happy to explain, yet I still think its off topic.
I believe that a hero is someone who does extraordinary actions, so yes, if EVERYONE did an action that was extraordinary to the extent it became ordinary then it would no longer be a heroic action.
That is logical.
however, if a large number of people, number un determaned of course, were to do a same extraordinary action, say if it were over a long peroid of time to where it didn't become "normal" for this action to occur, then still all of them would be heros, as their actions would be heroic.
We'd have to get to the nature of what makes actions "heroic" and how many times you can do an action that is "heroic" before it is no longer considered "heroic".
Which would probably be something better left to a philosophy doctorial candidate.
In an SP game, the world is completely populated by "average Joe" NPCs. So yes, it's easy for the player to be a hero in an SP game.
But in an MMORPG, the world is populated by players and NPCs. And typically, the NPCs are so static they are more like mannequins...so I don't feel like they really count. They fail at projecting the illusion of a real society, they are more like quest dispensers.
Then you have the players, each and every one of which is "the hero." And it's ridiculous. You see a line of "heroes" all waiting to kill the evil gnoll chief terrorizing the village, or collect the 10 flowers Bob needs for his daughter's cure, or kill the 20 orcs that have been burning the farmland. It's ridiculous.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?