It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.
The genre has branched out and evolved. Into shallow dead end games.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices. Cool! This is awesome.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages. This could be expected with the growth of the Internet. Remember, MMORPG's are a by-product of the Internet. They grew with the growth of the Internet at about the same pace...until recently - say, 2005.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks Again the Internet.
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.MOBA's are not MMORPG's. We're talking about a specific part of the genre - not branches of it.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred. Again, the growth of the Internet.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming. WoW brought millions into playing MMO's, because the Internet had grown and because WoW could be played on a McGyvered Calculator.Since then the genre has seen little growth in the NA and EU markets.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline. I'd say it has stagnated. Which is what I have been saying.
All depends what indicators for success / failure you will take into consideration.
If you take number of players / number of games /etc into consideration then mmorpg genre is expanding and progressing.
If you look from virtual world player perspective then genre is declining.
All matter of perspective you look from.
We are gamers, not businessmen. What perspective were you expecting us to take?
It's like saying war is good, becouse it generates plenty of business for many different companies and that it just depends on the perspective. Go ask the ones with family members dead to bombs.
I know the example is a gross exageration, but it's the very first thing that came to my mind.
I don't expect any other perspective in this forum to be taken but a gamer's one.
It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business.
It was always a business, but I do see your point. It seems like it's currently spinnign its wheels and not becoming what some feel it could be. As if it's become just as stagnant as it has become prolific.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man great read and can agree with alot of this but feel games like Fallenearth are on the exception it has alot of Sandbox feel with thempark setup with questing and total skill based system with lvls it has a sandbox feel and I myself am enjoying it. Archage looks good but with out any info on a US release I will not be looking forward to it till there is one. As for future games here coming out alot are same old same old but GW2 offers atleast something new so does TSW but till we can really play them they dont look like the end all be all games. As for what else is out the on the horizen game FPSMMO's look good like PS2 and Firefall dont like Tribes to much because they haven't stopped the aimbots in it.
I am still waiting on a game with no quests where the players make there own adventures no instanses or raiding just good old advenutre and or if you want to be a merchant you can or even a fishermen you can. And to this day no sandbox has tried it cause they all have quests of somekind in them guiding you for whatever reason I dont know. But make a game with DCUO combat and skill/power setup games dont need 10 toolbars anymore thats old school. Add huge open world 3 to 4 times larger then WoW open world and make it where you can go anywhere from day one also make it about exploreing and have a sub story in it so people have some lore.
I have been waiting for the day for a company not to be affraid to make a ture open world mmo I myself have writen my on Pen and Paper game over the last 12 yrs writing rewriting the rules till it felt like something I liked so I let a few buddies of mine try it and they siad they wish it was an mmo cause it was just that fun and not hard to pick up and play plus it had everything in it we want in a turely good mmo. One of these days I might just put it out for others to try after I fix a few bugs in it. But it works for what it is a tabletop pen and paper game based on a fastasy setting with really very few limits on what you can be and can do.
So till a company comes out with a ture open world sandbox and not one that gates you by lvl I will continue to wait playing what I feel like and enjoying them for what they are games.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
The genre has branched out and evolved. Into shallow dead end games.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices. Cool! This is awesome.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages. This could be expected with the growth of the Internet. Remember, MMORPG's are a by-product of the Internet. They grew with the growth of the Internet at about the same pace...until recently - say, 2005.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks Again the Internet.
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.MOBA's are not MMORPG's. We're talking about a specific part of the genre - not branches of it.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred. Again, the growth of the Internet.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming. WoW brought millions into playing MMO's, because the Internet had grown and because WoW could be played on a McGyvered Calculator.Since then the genre has seen little growth in the NA and EU markets.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline. I'd say it has stagnated. Which is what I have been saying.
Teala's right on this it has become stagnated with the same old thing we have been playing sense 2005 and thats the problem no ones willing to step out of the norm and make something truely mindblowing they all want the easy road WoW style win button game with no real depth.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business.
It was always a business, but I do see your point. It seems like it's currently spinnign its wheels and not becoming what some feel it could be. As if it's become just as stagnant as it has become prolific.
It's become big business akin to say the film industry actually games in general passed the film industry. I disagree that businesses are by there nature corrupt . Look at any big business almost all lack the testicals for risk purhaps because they feel there is too much to lose. Small companies risk and the big boys look for a winner to fund or buy. When money is tight there is less risk taken. I don't know if or when MMOs will get out of the cycle of safe bets. We aren't exactly economically in the boom times.
The funny thing is, I think WoW was the turning point, thats not a brilliant observation... I'm sure all of you would agree with this... But even WoW, isn't WoW anymore. Back when I played closed beta and in early release, that game was actually quite fun.
It was far more "railroad" than anything we had seen before, but the PvP servers had a bit of a raw side to them at least from a PvP-perspective. We used to quest with our cameras swung around looking behind us, and most nights would turn into constant PvP fights rather than a "grind" -- that was fun. Even though it didn't matter much, we'd get 2 full raid groups together and attack enemy towns, again that was fun. Then of course they added battlegrounds and rewards which systematically removed all the joy from that game IMHO. Its still a techincally "good" game, but I don't play it anymore...
Anyway this is an endless debate, and unwinnable really. I think I can speak for many "old school" MMO players when I say that the early games had a very raw but real "feel" to them. They really were the promise of an "online world", and you had to actually make something of it for yourself. There was only "nothing to do" in those sandboxes if you yourself had nothing going on inside of your head (I mean that nicely). All of these new ones are console-style entertain me now type games. I think this is a reflection of the times, as this is how most young people are. When I grew up in the 80s, we'd get sent outside on a saturday morning with our bikes and told to be home by dinner. We had to basically use our imaginations to have fun and we'd be out adventuring all the time, so those early games I think were natural for many of us. The games now are quite boring IMHO.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.
I'm not sure your version of why MMORPG's were created to be is accurate. The two earliest popular MMO's, that came out nearly at same time, were UO and EQ and they had very different styles-sanbox vs themepark, i guess you could label them-and one style became more popular than the other. It happens. Both styles have stagnated over the years. Are any of the more current sandboxes all that advanced over UO (besides the graphics)-mostly same features. If sandboxes were more popular (money), there would be more made. Themeparks are where the moneys at right now.
Companies don't want to take the risk of making drastic changes, so we get slow change (and I agree many changes are for the worse). Maybe with TSW, GW2, AA coming out with some new ideas it will spur other companies to take some chances.
In general I agree with the OP. Let me say that I think there are a couple good sandbox games out there that have the right idea and Im going to be playing those regardless of those who argue against these sandbox-mmo's and despite some of their criticisms being valid.
But unfortunetly I dont see eye-to-eye with many people, and therefore end up despising and not identifying with people(in general) because of it.
But my opinion about "The public" or "the majority" in real-life is as follows: In general the majority will choose the less intelligent route, this is also true within the MMO community nowadays.
The funny thing is, I think WoW was the turning point, thats not a brilliant observation... I'm sure all of you would agree with this... But even WoW, isn't WoW anymore. Back when I played closed beta and in early release, that game was actually quite fun.
It was far more "railroad" than anything we had seen before, but the PvP servers had a bit of a raw side to them at least from a PvP-perspective. We used to quest with our cameras swung around looking behind us, and most nights would turn into constant PvP fights rather than a "grind" -- that was fun. Even though it didn't matter much, we'd get 2 full raid groups together and attack enemy towns, again that was fun. Then of course they added battlegrounds and rewards which systematically removed all the joy from that game IMHO. Its still a techincally "good" game, but I don't play it anymore...
Anyway this is an endless debate, and unwinnable really. I think I can speak for many "old school" MMO players when I say that the early games had a very raw but real "feel" to them. They really were the promise of an "online world", and you had to actually make something of it for yourself. There was only "nothing to do" in those sandboxes if you yourself had nothing going on inside of your head (I mean that nicely). All of these new ones are console-style entertain me now type games. I think this is a reflection of the times, as this is how most young people are. When I grew up in the 80s, we'd get sent outside on a saturday morning with our bikes and told to be home by dinner. We had to basically use our imaginations to have fun and we'd be out adventuring all the time, so those early games I think were natural for many of us. The games now are quite boring IMHO.
THIS X1000. Spot on about growing up in the 80's. Me and my friends played guns in the woods like we were soldiers, ride our bikes and pretend we were on speeder bikes...even throwing ourselves from them like we got shot...and made full armor like knights from carboard with shields we'd draw our own symbols on and beat the crap out of each other with sticks as swords. Good times.
Not to mention pen and papaer D&D....which is the target audience MMORPG's were going after in the beginning.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
What has this got anythign to do with age? i am 32 and i believe MMOS are getting better not the other way around. GW2, TSW, AA..future looks gerat to me.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
What has this got anythign to do with age? i am 32 and i believe MMOS are getting better not the other way around. GW2, TSW, AA..future looks gerat to me.
I'm simply saying there seems to be 2 types that enjoy the instant gratification, fast paced race to cap MMO's of today.
- Young people who started with WoW.
- Older players with limited time who don't mind the change to rat race MMO's to accomodate their busy schedules.
I am old school...and have limited time too....but I still would like to see an MMORPG that didn't allow me to get to cap to sit bored because I blinked. Just soem liek me that find accomplishment and gratification getting half a level and a quest or two done in a day...and then there are those that need more.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.
I'm not sure your version of why MMORPG's were created to be is accurate. The two earliest popular MMO's, that came out nearly at same time, were UO and EQ and they had very different styles-sanbox vs themepark, i guess you could label them-and one style became more popular than the other. It happens. Both styles have stagnated over the years. Are any of the more current sandboxes all that advanced over UO (besides the graphics)-mostly same features. If sandboxes were more popular (money), there would be more made. Themeparks are where the moneys at right now.
Companies don't want to take the risk of making drastic changes, so we get slow change (and I agree many changes are for the worse). Maybe with TSW, GW2, AA coming out with some new ideas it will spur other companies to take some chances.
The ONLY reasons that EQ/Themepark became more popular tha UO/Sandbox is-
1- EQ was a 3D engine/world with 1st/3rd person perspectives. UO was 2D Isometric/Birdseye view.
Many, including me, didnt like that view/perspective and thought it was dated.
2- EQ was PvE with consensual PvP. UO was FFA Full Loot PvP
Trammel was a direct result of EQ and the fact that more people prefered not to be ganked for their shit
The open world, skill based, sandbox type of style is far more condusive to what an MMORPG should aspire to than the constricted zoned world, level/class based themepark style.
If UO had released with a 3D engine/world and had been PvE with consensual PvP, I would bet $$ to donuts that it would have easily beat out EQ and the MMO genre would be very VERY different.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
That would be accurate. Plus, i have OTHER hobbies than MMOs. I really do not want to play a game like work. I use to raid with a pretty advance group (done some hard mode raids in WOTLK) .. that is too much time commitment.
I really don't want to spend hours every week in wiping. There are MUCH better things to do.
WOW is MUCH better with LFR. I can group with some friends on a raid ANYTIME .. and even just with strangers if i want a raid fix.
I will ONLY pay & play games that fit MY schedule, my life, NOT the other way around.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
What has this got anythign to do with age? i am 32 and i believe MMOS are getting better not the other way around. GW2, TSW, AA..future looks gerat to me.
I'm simply saying there seems to be 2 types that enjoy the instant gratification, fast paced race to cap MMO's of today.
- Young people who started with WoW.
- Older players with limited time who don't mind the change to rat race MMO's to accomodate their busy schedules.
I am old school...and have limited time too....but I still would like to see an MMORPG that didn't allow me to get to cap to sit bored because I blinked. Just soem liek me that find accomplishment and gratification getting half a level and a quest or two done in a day...and then there are those that need more.
You are confusing the desire for a meaningful experience or gain in a smaller time window with a desire for instant gratification. Either that or you are intentionally using a belittling term which really isn't constructive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The open world, skill based, sandbox type of style is far more condusive to what an MMORPG should aspire to than the constricted zoned world, level/class based themepark style.
There is nothing MMORPG should aspire to be, but good games. Any pre-conceived ideas of what it "should be" is restrictive and not thinking out of the box.
WOW's "innovation" is to realize the limitation of EQ/UO virtual world, break the mold and make a good GAME.
It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.
It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
That would be accurate. Plus, i have OTHER hobbies than MMOs. I really do not want to play a game like work. I use to raid with a pretty advance group (done some hard mode raids in WOTLK) .. that is too much time commitment.
I really don't want to spend hours every week in wiping. There are MUCH better things to do.
WOW is MUCH better with LFR. I can group with some friends on a raid ANYTIME .. and even just with strangers if i want a raid fix.
I will ONLY pay & play games that fit MY schedule, my life, NOT the other way around.
That last line seems to resonate with a lot of people lately, and I'm very happy about that. I just wish more people would take that route, effectively speaking with their wallets, rather than the norm right now which is a stagnation-fueling mix of hope and compalcency.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
And how many of those hundreds of new MMOs, aside from WoW and EvE,
-still exist
-aren't in rapid decline
-have had a healthy player base of over 200000 players for more than two years straight?
Where's the any key?
It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business.
(-_-)
@up
All depends what indicators for success / failure you will take into consideration.
If you take number of players / number of games /etc into consideration then mmorpg genre is expanding and progressing.
If you look from virtual world player perspective then genre is declining.
All matter of perspective you look from.
Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.
My gaming blog
We are gamers, not businessmen. What perspective were you expecting us to take?
It's like saying war is good, becouse it generates plenty of business for many different companies and that it just depends on the perspective. Go ask the ones with family members dead to bombs.
I know the example is a gross exageration, but it's the very first thing that came to my mind.
I don't expect any other perspective in this forum to be taken but a gamer's one.
It was always a business, but I do see your point. It seems like it's currently spinnign its wheels and not becoming what some feel it could be. As if it's become just as stagnant as it has become prolific.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man great read and can agree with alot of this but feel games like Fallenearth are on the exception it has alot of Sandbox feel with thempark setup with questing and total skill based system with lvls it has a sandbox feel and I myself am enjoying it. Archage looks good but with out any info on a US release I will not be looking forward to it till there is one. As for future games here coming out alot are same old same old but GW2 offers atleast something new so does TSW but till we can really play them they dont look like the end all be all games. As for what else is out the on the horizen game FPSMMO's look good like PS2 and Firefall dont like Tribes to much because they haven't stopped the aimbots in it.
I am still waiting on a game with no quests where the players make there own adventures no instanses or raiding just good old advenutre and or if you want to be a merchant you can or even a fishermen you can. And to this day no sandbox has tried it cause they all have quests of somekind in them guiding you for whatever reason I dont know. But make a game with DCUO combat and skill/power setup games dont need 10 toolbars anymore thats old school. Add huge open world 3 to 4 times larger then WoW open world and make it where you can go anywhere from day one also make it about exploreing and have a sub story in it so people have some lore.
I have been waiting for the day for a company not to be affraid to make a ture open world mmo I myself have writen my on Pen and Paper game over the last 12 yrs writing rewriting the rules till it felt like something I liked so I let a few buddies of mine try it and they siad they wish it was an mmo cause it was just that fun and not hard to pick up and play plus it had everything in it we want in a turely good mmo. One of these days I might just put it out for others to try after I fix a few bugs in it. But it works for what it is a tabletop pen and paper game based on a fastasy setting with really very few limits on what you can be and can do.
So till a company comes out with a ture open world sandbox and not one that gates you by lvl I will continue to wait playing what I feel like and enjoying them for what they are games.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
It's become big business akin to say the film industry actually games in general passed the film industry. I disagree that businesses are by there nature corrupt . Look at any big business almost all lack the testicals for risk purhaps because they feel there is too much to lose. Small companies risk and the big boys look for a winner to fund or buy. When money is tight there is less risk taken. I don't know if or when MMOs will get out of the cycle of safe bets. We aren't exactly economically in the boom times.
The funny thing is, I think WoW was the turning point, thats not a brilliant observation... I'm sure all of you would agree with this... But even WoW, isn't WoW anymore. Back when I played closed beta and in early release, that game was actually quite fun.
It was far more "railroad" than anything we had seen before, but the PvP servers had a bit of a raw side to them at least from a PvP-perspective. We used to quest with our cameras swung around looking behind us, and most nights would turn into constant PvP fights rather than a "grind" -- that was fun. Even though it didn't matter much, we'd get 2 full raid groups together and attack enemy towns, again that was fun. Then of course they added battlegrounds and rewards which systematically removed all the joy from that game IMHO. Its still a techincally "good" game, but I don't play it anymore...
Anyway this is an endless debate, and unwinnable really. I think I can speak for many "old school" MMO players when I say that the early games had a very raw but real "feel" to them. They really were the promise of an "online world", and you had to actually make something of it for yourself. There was only "nothing to do" in those sandboxes if you yourself had nothing going on inside of your head (I mean that nicely). All of these new ones are console-style entertain me now type games. I think this is a reflection of the times, as this is how most young people are. When I grew up in the 80s, we'd get sent outside on a saturday morning with our bikes and told to be home by dinner. We had to basically use our imaginations to have fun and we'd be out adventuring all the time, so those early games I think were natural for many of us. The games now are quite boring IMHO.
I'm not sure your version of why MMORPG's were created to be is accurate. The two earliest popular MMO's, that came out nearly at same time, were UO and EQ and they had very different styles-sanbox vs themepark, i guess you could label them-and one style became more popular than the other. It happens. Both styles have stagnated over the years. Are any of the more current sandboxes all that advanced over UO (besides the graphics)-mostly same features. If sandboxes were more popular (money), there would be more made. Themeparks are where the moneys at right now.
Companies don't want to take the risk of making drastic changes, so we get slow change (and I agree many changes are for the worse). Maybe with TSW, GW2, AA coming out with some new ideas it will spur other companies to take some chances.
In general I agree with the OP. Let me say that I think there are a couple good sandbox games out there that have the right idea and Im going to be playing those regardless of those who argue against these sandbox-mmo's and despite some of their criticisms being valid.
But unfortunetly I dont see eye-to-eye with many people, and therefore end up despising and not identifying with people(in general) because of it.
But my opinion about "The public" or "the majority" in real-life is as follows: In general the majority will choose the less intelligent route, this is also true within the MMO community nowadays.
THIS X1000. Spot on about growing up in the 80's. Me and my friends played guns in the woods like we were soldiers, ride our bikes and pretend we were on speeder bikes...even throwing ourselves from them like we got shot...and made full armor like knights from carboard with shields we'd draw our own symbols on and beat the crap out of each other with sticks as swords. Good times.
Not to mention pen and papaer D&D....which is the target audience MMORPG's were going after in the beginning.
That is subjective.
MY experience of MMO has improved, not declined.
Betting it is because...judging from your profile..being 46...it is because it allows instant gratification so you feel you have accomplished something in the limited time you have.
What has this got anythign to do with age? i am 32 and i believe MMOS are getting better not the other way around. GW2, TSW, AA..future looks gerat to me.
I'm simply saying there seems to be 2 types that enjoy the instant gratification, fast paced race to cap MMO's of today.
- Young people who started with WoW.
- Older players with limited time who don't mind the change to rat race MMO's to accomodate their busy schedules.
I am old school...and have limited time too....but I still would like to see an MMORPG that didn't allow me to get to cap to sit bored because I blinked. Just soem liek me that find accomplishment and gratification getting half a level and a quest or two done in a day...and then there are those that need more.
The ONLY reasons that EQ/Themepark became more popular tha UO/Sandbox is-
1- EQ was a 3D engine/world with 1st/3rd person perspectives. UO was 2D Isometric/Birdseye view.
Many, including me, didnt like that view/perspective and thought it was dated.
2- EQ was PvE with consensual PvP. UO was FFA Full Loot PvP
Trammel was a direct result of EQ and the fact that more people prefered not to be ganked for their shit
The open world, skill based, sandbox type of style is far more condusive to what an MMORPG should aspire to than the constricted zoned world, level/class based themepark style.
If UO had released with a 3D engine/world and had been PvE with consensual PvP, I would bet $$ to donuts that it would have easily beat out EQ and the MMO genre would be very VERY different.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
That would be accurate. Plus, i have OTHER hobbies than MMOs. I really do not want to play a game like work. I use to raid with a pretty advance group (done some hard mode raids in WOTLK) .. that is too much time commitment.
I really don't want to spend hours every week in wiping. There are MUCH better things to do.
WOW is MUCH better with LFR. I can group with some friends on a raid ANYTIME .. and even just with strangers if i want a raid fix.
I will ONLY pay & play games that fit MY schedule, my life, NOT the other way around.
This thread should be renamed to;
'The Rise & Fall, and Rise again of the MMORPG genre'.
With themparkers and hybrid sandparkers alike have plenty of reason to think this genre is about to undergo a rebirth.
The fat lady 'aint singing just yet.
You are confusing the desire for a meaningful experience or gain in a smaller time window with a desire for instant gratification. Either that or you are intentionally using a belittling term which really isn't constructive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is nothing MMORPG should aspire to be, but good games. Any pre-conceived ideas of what it "should be" is restrictive and not thinking out of the box.
WOW's "innovation" is to realize the limitation of EQ/UO virtual world, break the mold and make a good GAME.
That last line seems to resonate with a lot of people lately, and I'm very happy about that. I just wish more people would take that route, effectively speaking with their wallets, rather than the norm right now which is a stagnation-fueling mix of hope and compalcency.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre