The simple and obvious genius of scaling players to zones

Bladestrom

I am referring to GW2 here  (edit: but it could be any game that supports this mechanic) and the scaling down of players to match the zone they are entering which will in many ways revitalises the gaming community (brilliant ideas always seem so obvious when you see them) 

The willingness to help was one of the characteristics of older mmorgs, and to a certain degree new mmorgs in the first month,  You have a mass of people all levelling with similar goals.  When humans have similar goals they band together, and so communities flourish.  Unfortunately this dies with modern end-game mmorgs that fails to understand community beyond its rather crude use as a vehicle for grouping people for raids and pvp.  Now, with the ability to scale players to match zones and by implication other players we achieves the same effect, an entire community with common goals where level is irrelevant.

For me this open the door to roleplay finally, I plan to go wandering and simply watch out for things happening and where people are playing, and go join in and help, brilliant.  Even better, I can switch my role to suit the needs of strangers (a healer here, dps there, etc)  therefore giving me an opportunity to try new things, win-win in effect.  Thousands of players doing the same thing and suddenly your virtual world and community is alive and vibrant.  10's of thousands of people potentially doing this, I dare imagine!

 

WereLlama

I disagree.  

Community is not just folks working together, it is 'individuals' working together.

If we are all the same, or can transform freely into any role we choose, we lose the concept of 'self'.

Without self, and the persistant challenge of fititng that unique element into a focused team, there is no social investment, or challenge.

In a way, the easier the game makes it to fit in, the looser and more un-resiliant the community becomes.

Community building must be hard or it will last no longer then a wisp of steam on a windy day.

Those who give their loyalty easily, betray equally easily.

-Blitz

Garvon3

While this WILL help keep zones alive, scaling in RPGs just makes absolutely no sense to me. RPGs are completely centered around growing and improving your skills.

 

Between the instancing, scaling, and teleporting, this world isn't going to feel real at all.

tixylix

GW2 will be another over hyped failed MMO, they're saying all the same things as previous MMOs about all these new features and yet it just looks like the same old game.

 

The best world design is to have a non linear world with different level content mixed together.

Hedeon

what I get to think about, and am missing, when reading your post is epic quests in open dungeons that feel epic....with stuff to unlock as a group/guild

Vhaln

Originally posted by Garvon3

While this WILL help keep zones alive, scaling in RPGs just makes absolutely no sense to me. RPGs are completely centered around growing and improving your skills.

 

Between the instancing, scaling, and teleporting, this world isn't going to feel real at all.

 

I'm concerned about this as well, but as long as being high level means having more skills, better equipment, and things like that which skew the scaling in the players favor, it might be enough.  Lower level zones will still be rewarding, and somewhat dangerous, but the player might feel a lot stronger than when they were in those zones at lower level.  

 

If done well enough, it could even enhance the feeling of getting stronger.  Instead of mobs just being grey and irrelevant, the player can go back and see how they've improved.  The massive difference a few levels make in other MMOs almost negates that in a way.

Zetsuei

Originally posted by tixylix

GW2 will be another over hyped failed MMO, they're saying all the same things as previous MMOs about all these new features and yet it just looks like the same old game.

 

The best world design is to have a non linear world with different level content mixed together.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "Hype" Hype is something companies do to get fans going crazy and promoting the game on their own. ArenaNet only shows off whats IN their game. The Hype is coming from fans who are truly excited for the game. The reason over hyped MMOs fail is cause they lack things at launch which they have promised. Everything GW2 has shown off is in game and working.

So please, don't spout of nonsense when you have no idea what your talking about.

Personally, I think scaling will be a amazing thing. Even if I'm maxed level and helping my friend, it will still be a challenge to both of us.  Where is the fun in steamrolling everything without anything to challenge yourself?

Cuathon

Originally posted by Zetsuei

Originally posted by tixylix

GW2 will be another over hyped failed MMO, they're saying all the same things as previous MMOs about all these new features and yet it just looks like the same old game.

 

The best world design is to have a non linear world with different level content mixed together.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "Hype" Hype is something companies do to get fans going crazy and promoting the game on their own. ArenaNet only shows off whats IN their game. The Hype is coming from fans who are truly excited for the game. The reason over hyped MMOs fail is cause they lack things at launch which they have promised. Everything GW2 has shown off is in game and working.

So please, don't spout of nonsense when you have no idea what your talking about.

Personally, I think scaling will be a amazing thing. Even if I'm maxed level and helping my friend, it will still be a challenge to both of us.  Where is the fun in steamrolling everything without anything to challenge yourself?

I think scaling is a good business decision at best, but certainly a poor virtual world decision.

Distopia

Originally posted by Zetsuei

 

I don't think you understand the meaning of "Hype" Hype is something companies do to get fans going crazy and promoting the game on their own. ArenaNet only shows off whats IN their game. The Hype is coming from fans who are truly excited for the game. The reason over hyped MMOs fail is cause they lack things at launch which they have promised. Everything GW2 has shown off is in game and working.

So please, don't spout of nonsense when you have no idea what your talking about.

 

First I have to say I feel GW2 will be a great game from top to bottom. However hype is not what you're saying it is, hype plain and simple is marketing. Every company on earth uses hype in the same manner, even A-net. Some may take it to absurd lengths. They're still doing the same thing, trying to generate sales.

 

thekid1

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Zetsuei

 

I don't think you understand the meaning of "Hype" Hype is something companies do to get fans going crazy and promoting the game on their own. ArenaNet only shows off whats IN their game. The Hype is coming from fans who are truly excited for the game. The reason over hyped MMOs fail is cause they lack things at launch which they have promised. Everything GW2 has shown off is in game and working.

So please, don't spout of nonsense when you have no idea what your talking about.

 

First I have to say I feel GW2 will be a great game from top to bottom. However hype is not what you're saying it is, hype plain and simple is marketing. Every company on earth uses hype in the same manner, even A-net. Some may take it to absurd lengths. They're still doing the same thing, trying to generate sales.

 

Hype comes from fans, people and websites and not the gaming companies them selves so it is not marketing.

Game companies might create hype by showing game footage, giving (false) game info and marketing.

freston

Originally posted by Garvon3

While this WILL help keep zones alive, scaling in RPGs just makes absolutely no sense to me. RPGs are completely centered around growing and improving your skills.

 

Between the instancing, scaling, and teleporting, this world isn't going to feel real at all.

You are absolutely right , sir. Nothing bolsters realism so much as having a level 80 killing in one blow the level 12 ogre you and your level 8 buddies were working so hard to slay. 

Master10K

What's annoying about current MMORPGs is that their's no incentive to go back and help a friend or guildmate on, let's say, an Elite mob for a quest. Because oneshotting a mob, that was once challenging, isn't fun and getting no rewards for doing something makes it a waste of time. So bring on the sidekicking, or dynamic auto-leveling mechanic, whatever it's called. It's much better than the current system of grey mobs, which turn once popular mid-level zones, into wastelands.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Master10K

What's annoying about current MMORPGs is that their's no incentive to go back and help a friend or guildmate on, let's say, an Elite mob for a quest. Because oneshotting a mob, that was once challenging, isn't fun and getting no rewards for doing something makes it a waste of time. So bring on the sidekicking, or dynamic auto-leveling mechanic, whatever it's called. It's much better than the current system of grey mobs, which turn once popular mid-level zones, into wastelands.

aha someone else who gets it

Bladestrom

Originally posted by BlitzVF

I disagree.  

Community is not just folks working together, it is 'individuals' working together.

If we are all the same, or can transform freely into any role we choose, we lose the concept of 'self'.

Without self, and the persistant challenge of fititng that unique element into a focused team, there is no social investment, or challenge.

In a way, the easier the game makes it to fit in, the looser and more un-resiliant the community becomes.

Community building must be hard or it will last no longer then a wisp of steam on a windy day.

Those who give their loyalty easily, betray equally easily.

-Blitz

No because skill starts to shine here, its easy to become expert in 1 discipline, true masters - those with the greatest self image and command, have skills in many disciplines, as with real life.

My background is that I love mages, love being glass cannons, love being recognised as a high performer, but I have to tell you that the single role (any role) world is shallow.  My goal now is not  to be a top dps, ive realised that this game offers a chance for my avataor to be great at many things, that is a most powerful representation of self. 

Ultimately people who give their loyalty are better than those that don't.  More than that people who give help to strangers regardless of loyalty is greater still.

Vryheid

If players are going to be perfectly scaled to zones, I don't see why we should even bother having a level up system. That's why people hated Oblivion's level up system so much, it was actually a better strategy to play the entire game as a level 1 character.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Vryheid

If players are going to be perfectly scaled to zones, I don't see why we should even bother having a level up system. That's why people hated Oblivion's level up system so much, it was actually a better strategy to play the entire game as a level 1 character.

Scaling is downwards only. 

Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down. 

 

I also wonder about loot.  So I'm going to be scaled down and receive lvl 20 loot while I'm lvl 80?  I still would not want to go back and quest there for no loot.

evilastro

I have always hated being inherently superhuman just because I am 10 levels higher than something.

GW2 is going a nice direction, you will still be more powerful than someone lower, but you wont trivialise the content.  Large numbers of lower level mobs should still be a challenge in my opinion, even the mightiest of warriors can still be toppled by an army.

Alders

Originally posted by Master10K

What's annoying about current MMORPGs is that their's no incentive to go back and help a friend or guildmate on, let's say, an Elite mob for a quest. Because oneshotting a mob, that was once challenging, isn't fun and getting no rewards for doing something makes it a waste of time. So bring on the sidekicking, or dynamic auto-leveling mechanic, whatever it's called. It's much better than the current system of grey mobs, which turn once popular mid-level zones, into wastelands.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

I like going back and helping friends that may have just started the game.  Being able to help them experience the game as it should be instead of just running them through content is pure gold.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down.

ye thats a fair point in the world where stat over powering is a huge factor, but if you keep the mobs at competitive level based on stats, you will still eventually own those mobs because your experience and skills ( as you say) will scale greater in this game.  I also like the idea of overpowering zones, but I remember that it was also ultimately tedious, the mobs just became annoying meaningless fodder/buffers between you and your goal.  However, blasting through a zone that you previoulsy struggled in because your personal skills have tripled and not because you hit for 50000 is more satisfying and fun.  Gives you a greater playground.

Guess simple answer is that as you have a greater skill range so you will still have a big advantage over those older zones, and therefore no need to have overpowered skills as well.  1 shotting bosses is never fun.

 

 

Master10K

Originally posted by Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down. 

 

I also wonder about loot.  So I'm going to be scaled down and receive lvl 20 loot while I'm lvl 80?  I still would not want to go back and quest there for no loot.

Well in Guild Wars 2 you currently only need to be 1 level above the content for downscaling to occur and drops your character gets will always be level appropriate.

Here's a video of some guys at level 4 doing level 3 content and when they reached level 7, they were doing level 10 content. (character levels are shown in the bottom left)

Connmacart

Originally posted by BlitzVF

I disagree.  

Community is not just folks working together, it is 'individuals' working together.

If we are all the same, or can transform freely into any role we choose, we lose the concept of 'self'.

Without self, and the persistant challenge of fititng that unique element into a focused team, there is no social investment, or challenge.

In a way, the easier the game makes it to fit in, the looser and more un-resiliant the community becomes.

Community building must be hard or it will last no longer then a wisp of steam on a windy day.

Those who give their loyalty easily, betray equally easily.

-Blitz

I'll do you one better

Those who are unable or unwilling to change will die out when new things hit them in the face.

A world that remains viable even after outleveling it will be a world that can stay alive much longer then those that do not.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down. 

 

I also wonder about loot.  So I'm going to be scaled down and receive lvl 20 loot while I'm lvl 80?  I still would not want to go back and quest there for no loot.

Well in Guild Wars 2 you currently only need to be 1 level above the content for downscaling to occur and drops your character gets will always be level appropriate.

Here's a video of some guys at level 4 doing level 3 content and when they reached level 7, they were doing level 10 content. (character levels are shown in the bottom left)

mm that raises another positive aspect, outlevelling quest content.  Imagine how worse it would be if you are working through an event chain but by the end of it you outscales the final boss fight - now you get that appropriate finally, and you get to do it as many times as you like in the future   It actually means you can stay in zones you love, and skip those you are less interested in.

 

Master10K

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Master10K

*snip*

Well in Guild Wars 2 you currently only need to be 1 level above the content for downscaling to occur and drops your character gets will always be level appropriate.

Here's a video of some guys at level 4 doing level 3 content and when they reached level 7, they were doing level 10 content. (character levels are shown in the bottom left)

mm that raises another positive aspect, outlevelling quest content.  Imagine how worse it would be if you are working through an event chain but by the end of it you outscales the final boss fight - now you get that appropriate finally, and you get to do it as many times as you like in the future   It actually means you can stay in zones you love, and skip those you are less interested in.

Yeah, I've always hated how in these linear MMORPGs I'm forced to level in that 1 crappy zone. All these MMORPGs have one that one zone, which is a pain to quest in (Rift had Lantern Hook). At least in GW2 I'll be able to bi-pass that inevitable crappy zone, by staying in a zone I like, for longer than intended.

Castillle

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down. 

 

I also wonder about loot.  So I'm going to be scaled down and receive lvl 20 loot while I'm lvl 80?  I still would not want to go back and quest there for no loot.

Well in Guild Wars 2 you currently only need to be 1 level above the content for downscaling to occur and drops your character gets will always be level appropriate.

Here's a video of some guys at level 4 doing level 3 content and when they reached level 7, they were doing level 10 content. (character levels are shown in the bottom left)

Well thats weird o.O  I remember hearing the devs said youll be at the level thats highest allowed for that zone.  Maybe its different for those ones with cutscenes?  They said youll be like 3-5 levels higher in one of the dev interviews

Master10K

Originally posted by Castillle

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Mardukk

I wonder how much higher in lvl you will be able to get before they make you scale back down?  This is going to be pretty tricky to pull off without it being a pain.  At higher lvls you may scale back down but you should have more skills available and thus a bit more powerful than the mobs.

 

It's something that I think would be nice to try in one MMO but I wouldn't want all MMO's from here on out forcing you to scale down. 

 

I also wonder about loot.  So I'm going to be scaled down and receive lvl 20 loot while I'm lvl 80?  I still would not want to go back and quest there for no loot.

Well in Guild Wars 2 you currently only need to be 1 level above the content for downscaling to occur and drops your character gets will always be level appropriate.

Here's a video of some guys at level 4 doing level 3 content and when they reached level 7, they were doing level 10 content. (character levels are shown in the bottom left)

Well thats weird o.O  I remember hearing the devs said youll be at the level thats highest allowed for that zone.  Maybe its different for those ones with cutscenes?  They said youll be like 3-5 levels higher in one of the dev interviews

Which is why I said "currently" and it is for all PvE ares of the game (dungeons and dynamic events). Maybe they recently implement it this way, to see if the scaling works better. ArenaNet are constantly changing and re-iterating on past features, so don't take the little intricacies, like this downscaling, as golden. Heck, just look at out they completely re-vamped the Trait system.