I don't think wow's success had much to do with the IP, but I agree that current devs are missing some of the things that made wow a success. I would say that wow's immersion factor was very high due to a large seamless world, their choice of art direction, and their insanely good execution of that lighthearted style. The gameplay wasn't new but it was super tuned for addictiveness. They way that you progressed in power through each level and with each new piece of gear was really well done. I think wow has lost some of this addictive progression with the latest expansions, but now they are catering to people who have played through the game multiple times.
most importantly, wow really was a new thing for alot of people who were playing an mmo for the first time. In order to repeat wow's success your product needs to invoke some sense of novelty that goes beyond little twists and gimmicks.
Well I will say this after being in the beta from phase 2 on and getting a free copy of the game for doing so I enjoyed the game then. But as time went on I got bored with it and didn't see the fun in it after 3-4 months been awhile sense those days. Sense then I have gone back every expasion to date to see whats new and see the changes. To me WoW was pretty stable game very polished at launch just like GW1 and Rifts was but it had its down time to cause they couldn't keep up with all the players coming in to the game 240,000 copies sold day one and then they sold out by dec nation wide (ALMOST) it was the biggest and best selling PC game ever beating every record on release day for any PCgame. Today I am not a fan of it but I do rread all the lore and story I can find on Azeroth cause it is fantastic lore and history. As for everything else I dont remember there being a Raid in it at launch it came months if not a year latter it did have alot of world bosses and some instance dungeons that where hard to do then the first raid came out and its all over from there they started something and it followed to every game almost all the companys started copying differant things from each other. I remember when DDO was anounced and they said dungeon finder groups then a month or so latter WoW had it better and bigger then them. Even battle grounds where a rip off of GW Battle ground type settings. They learned cause they took alot of ideas from other games and built on them and then something happend it wasn't enough they had to something more then came phasing then Cata changing the world which was bound to happen cause the books tell the Deathwing would return and bring the world crashing down at his feet.
Theres alot I can write on this and tell you but wont when I played I was the Red Shirt guy I knew everything about the lore and history that my wife used to say if there was a class on Azeroth history I would be the teacher. But to me now thats all it is history I just can't bring myself to play it except for the free 1-20 thing and I do that about every 5 months or so jump on my Drani Pally and do BG's or run around doing the low level dungeons and yes full explorer on him been everywhere but places that need flyer and high lvl content that requeres you to out to get there (Outlands and Frozen North). But yeah this is just my go back to remember it game wish they would change the combat to a more action style though.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Other games with good design OR fantastic lore OR that were easy to play came before WoW, surely, but WoW was the first MMO to be well designed AND had fantastic lore AND was easy to play for anyone.
Win + Win + Win = lightning strike.
Saying good things about WoW?
Dem's fightin' words on these forums, son.
and SWG was really quite poorly designed too.
What? By themepark or sandbox standards? And please explain what features were poorly designed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
1) Blizzard allready had a huge fanbase for the Warcraft Franchise.
2) Blizzard had a great reputation, like Bioware until they released DA2. Something has a Blizz Logo on it? Will be a masterpiece.
3) WoW was the first of its kind. There simply were not many other MMOs around, and Blizz was not aiming for the few MMO Players of that time, they were aiming for the masses and Warcraft fans.
Since everything gets old after sometime, even WoW, or the "WoW model" and the market today is super saturated, and there are only so many potentional customers, SWTOR for example, does not have the impact WoW had, although the reasons 1) and 2) could be applied to it aswell. Just not reason 3).
Well I will say this after being in the beta from phase 2 on and getting a free copy of the game for doing so I enjoyed the game then. But as time went on I got bored with it and didn't see the fun in it after 3-4 months been awhile sense those days. Sense then I have gone back every expasion to date to see whats new and see the changes. To me WoW was pretty stable game very polished at launch just like GW1 and Rifts was but it had its down time to cause they couldn't keep up with all the players coming in to the game 240,000 copies sold day one and then they sold out by dec nation wide (ALMOST) it was the biggest and best selling PC game ever beating every record on release day for any PCgame. Today I am not a fan of it but I do rread all the lore and story I can find on Azeroth cause it is fantastic lore and history. As for everything else I dont remember there being a Raid in it at launch it came months if not a year latter it did have alot of world bosses and some instance dungeons that where hard to do then the first raid came out and its all over from there they started something and it followed to every game almost all the companys started copying differant things from each other. I remember when DDO was anounced and they said dungeon finder groups then a month or so latter WoW had it better and bigger then them. Even battle grounds where a rip off of GW Battle ground type settings. They learned cause they took alot of ideas from other games and built on them and then something happend it wasn't enough they had to something more then came phasing then Cata changing the world which was bound to happen cause the books tell the Deathwing would return and bring the world crashing down at his feet.
Theres alot I can write on this and tell you but wont when I played I was the Red Shirt guy I knew everything about the lore and history that my wife used to say if there was a class on Azeroth history I would be the teacher. But to me now thats all it is history I just can't bring myself to play it except for the free 1-20 thing and I do that about every 5 months or so jump on my Drani Pally and do BG's or run around doing the low level dungeons and yes full explorer on him been everywhere but places that need flyer and high lvl content that requeres you to out to get there (Outlands and Frozen North). But yeah this is just my go back to remember it game wish they would change the combat to a more action style though.
Sorry been up for 16 hrs so far beta testing another game no not GW2 wish but no. So my bad on the spelling and no I will not fix.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
One of the largest mistakes that MMO developers, hell GAME developers, do today is release unfinished products. SWTOR was released basically in the state that Vanilla WoW was released. To me, you don't release a themepark MMO without certain things like a LFG system/Dugeon finder, basic UI customization and other things and then release them as content in an up-comming patch.
Whatever people think about what good/bad WoW has brought to the genre, it's hard to imagine games being released without the new (what I perceive) as MMO basic features and I see that as good. It helps seperate the good from the bad.
OP this is a amazing you told us the secret behind blizzards succes with WoW we never discussed this here on forum we where guessing for years in the dark but now WE KNOW. Your the first to tell us, thank, thank you for this amazing discovery why WoW is what it is now thank you.
Now can we move on with our daily routine here on the forum pls, enough of this nonsens:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
1) Blizzard allready had a huge fanbase for the Warcraft Franchise.
2) Blizzard had a great reputation, like Bioware until they released DA2. Something has a Blizz Logo on it? Will be a masterpiece.
3) WoW was the first of its kind. There simply were not many other MMOs around, and Blizz was not aiming for the few MMO Players of that time, they were aiming for the masses and Warcraft fans.
Since everything gets old after sometime, even WoW, or the "WoW model" and the market today is super saturated, and there are only so many potentional customers, SWTOR for example, does not have the impact WoW had, although the reasons 1) and 2) could be applied to it aswell. Just not reason 3).
No, their continued success is due to 1 & 2 which were due to the overwhelming success of the WoW product, the success of WoW came because of #3 as well as it broke the mold and succeeded in doing so.
What? By themepark or sandbox standards? And please explain what features were poorly designed.
Both.
The progression mechanics were similar in theory to a Ultima Online style in that you mixed and matched professions in order to build a unique character, which was good, but forced an excessive number of hours spent grinding to raise these professions like the Everquest style, which was bad.
The content in the game was thusly also based soley upon grinding, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in a well designed sandbox game.
The "themepark" elements to SWG, including the quest areas/chains they actually called Themeparks in the game (Jabba's Palace, Rebel Themepark, Imperial Themepark) were a buggy mess that required you to be at certain milestones in your character progression (again, more grinding) to complete them - just like any "modern" themepark MMO where quests and content are gated and closed off to play until you reach the appropriate level.
The other Themepark elements like the monthly story arcs were the same story as the Jabba's Palace/Rebel/Imperial themeparks - buggy mess of gated content.
I'd go as far to say that SWG had some of the worst elements of EQ style linear grind games and tried to throw them on top of a UO style sandbox, and this combination + a major, major problem with bugs and some of the worst balance issues of any MMORPG I have ever played would surely qualify SWG as a terribly designed game.
They had all the right ideas, I think, but absolutely piss poor implementation.
I found it immersive. 8 virtues with 8 counter evils. Long history in a fantasy setting.
I didn't know a damn thing about UO lore and never played the single player Ultima games before UO. My experiece w/ Ultima lore (or lack there of I should say) probably biased me.
I still loved UO.
Wouldn't say I found it immersive in a RP kind of sense, but it was a damn fine game and fun.
What? By themepark or sandbox standards? And please explain what features were poorly designed.
Both.
The progression mechanics were similar in theory to a Ultima Online style in that you mixed and matched professions in order to build a unique character, which was good, but forced an excessive number of hours spent grinding to raise these professions like the Everquest style, which was bad
As opposed to what, grinding "Kill X / Collect Y" quests in themeparks? As opposed to having everything handed to you, ie, getting max level in two weeks?
The content in the game was thusly also based soley upon grinding, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in a well designed sandbox game.
And the missions were what? Quests. SWG gave you the freedom to level as you see fit, not be forced down a linear quest path. I suppose some people just prefer the Skinner Box method to freedom.
The "themepark" elements to SWG, including the quest areas/chains they actually called Themeparks in the game (Jabba's Palace, Rebel Themepark, Imperial Themepark) were a buggy mess that required you to be at certain milestones in your character progression (again, more grinding) to complete them - just like any "modern" themepark MMO where quests and content are gated and closed off to play until you reach the appropriate level.
What do bugs have to do with poor design? If you use that as your standard, ALL MMOs are poorly designed.
The other Themepark elements like the monthly story arcs were the same story as the Jabba's Palace/Rebel/Imperial themeparks - buggy mess of gated content.
See above.
I'd go as far to say that SWG had some of the worst elements of EQ style linear grind games and tried to throw them on top of a UO style sandbox, and this combination + a major, major problem with bugs and some of the worst balance issues of any MMORPG I have ever played would surely qualify SWG as a terribly designed game.
Really. Well, I'd go so far as to say they were supperior to EQ grind-wise. What is your solution? Getting max level in a couple of weeks? A month? What exactly?
They had all the right ideas, I think, but absolutely piss poor implementation.
Ahh, so it wasn't really the design then, just implemented poorly? Now that I could agree more on, SWG certainly needed more time in the hopper no doubt.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I'm curious, do people recall that Everquest (1) had more than a million active players? I recall being online the first itme it hit 500,000 players online at one time. Do others?
Wow's numbers are not what make's it success so unique (though certainly they've set the record). What's unique is they managed to keep the lead for so long. The numbers were bound to come to some game or other eventually as more and more households got decent computers and dumped dial-up.
I think that is due to no other game coming out with a better model (as suggested by the OP), but I also think that is because they managed to not piss off their player base like Verient and SOE did. Instead Blizzard continuously lowered the bar so as to keep folks happy and make everyeone 'successful'. That works for a while. For the first company that does it at least. But eventually we all catch on and get bored.
I think that is due to no other game coming out with a better model (as suggested by the OP), but I also think that is because they managed to not piss off their player base like Verient and SOE did. Instead Blizzard continuously lowered the bar so as to keep folks happy and make everyeone 'successful'. That works for a while. For the first company that does it at least. But eventually we all catch on and get bored.
If this were all true then WoW's numbers would have never continued to be as plentiful as they are now or during it's life. The real truth is that WoW can still best most of what's out these days. Apart from the opinions about the lore and balance, Blizzard has a game that is almost a decade old and out-performs many others in many ways. The most prevalent is the engine and how smooth everything is in a fluid combat situation. Even with this engine being a decade old, I'd still rather play on it vs. SWTOR or any other game I've played since.
I'm looking forward to GW2 and hoping it flows as well as WoW.
The progression mechanics were similar in theory to a Ultima Online style in that you mixed and matched professions in order to build a unique character, which was good, but forced an excessive number of hours spent grinding to raise these professions like the Everquest style, which was bad
As opposed to what, grinding "Kill X / Collect Y" quests in themeparks? As opposed to having everything handed to you, ie, getting max level in two weeks?
The content in the game was thusly also based soley upon grinding, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in a well designed sandbox game.
And the missions were what? Quests. SWG gave you the freedom to level as you see fit, not be forced down a linear quest path. I suppose some people just prefer the Skinner Box method to freedom.
The "themepark" elements to SWG, including the quest areas/chains they actually called Themeparks in the game (Jabba's Palace, Rebel Themepark, Imperial Themepark) were a buggy mess that required you to be at certain milestones in your character progression (again, more grinding) to complete them - just like any "modern" themepark MMO where quests and content are gated and closed off to play until you reach the appropriate level.
What do bugs have to do with poor design? If you use that as your standard, ALL MMOs are poorly designed.
The other Themepark elements like the monthly story arcs were the same story as the Jabba's Palace/Rebel/Imperial themeparks - buggy mess of gated content.
See above.
I'd go as far to say that SWG had some of the worst elements of EQ style linear grind games and tried to throw them on top of a UO style sandbox, and this combination + a major, major problem with bugs and some of the worst balance issues of any MMORPG I have ever played would surely qualify SWG as a terribly designed game.
Really. Well, I'd go so far as to say they were supperior to EQ grind-wise. What is your solution? Getting max level in a couple of weeks? A month? What exactly?
They had all the right ideas, I think, but absolutely piss poor implementation.
Ahh, so it wasn't really the design then, just implemented poorly? Now that I could agree more on, SWG certainly needed more time in the hopper no doubt.
You seem to care an awful lot about "getting to max level" when we are talking about Sandbox games.
A TRUE sandbox has no level, no max, no grind, no end-game.
UO was the closest thing to a true sandbox because it was so easy and so fast to max out most skills. I think I 5x GM'd in the first few weeks and didn't even worry about skills or progression or "getting fat loots" for years...
It acheived a critical mass, once you got a certain number of players that attracts new players, especially players who never played mmos before - they're going to go the one with "12 million subs" - it must be the best right?
I'm curious, do people recall that Everquest (1) had more than a million active players? I recall being online the first itme it hit 500,000 players online at one time. Do others?
EverQuest launched with modest expectations from Sony on 16 March 1999 under its Verant Interactive brand and quickly became successful. By the end of the year, it had surpassed competitor Ultima Online in number of subscriptions. Numbers continued rising rapidly until mid-2001 when growth slowed. Sony's last reported subscription numbers were given as "more than 430,000 players" on 14 January 2004.[14]
The progression mechanics were similar in theory to a Ultima Online style in that you mixed and matched professions in order to build a unique character, which was good, but forced an excessive number of hours spent grinding to raise these professions like the Everquest style, which was bad
As opposed to what, grinding "Kill X / Collect Y" quests in themeparks? As opposed to having everything handed to you, ie, getting max level in two weeks?
The content in the game was thusly also based soley upon grinding, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in a well designed sandbox game.
And the missions were what? Quests. SWG gave you the freedom to level as you see fit, not be forced down a linear quest path. I suppose some people just prefer the Skinner Box method to freedom.
The "themepark" elements to SWG, including the quest areas/chains they actually called Themeparks in the game (Jabba's Palace, Rebel Themepark, Imperial Themepark) were a buggy mess that required you to be at certain milestones in your character progression (again, more grinding) to complete them - just like any "modern" themepark MMO where quests and content are gated and closed off to play until you reach the appropriate level.
What do bugs have to do with poor design? If you use that as your standard, ALL MMOs are poorly designed.
The other Themepark elements like the monthly story arcs were the same story as the Jabba's Palace/Rebel/Imperial themeparks - buggy mess of gated content.
See above.
I'd go as far to say that SWG had some of the worst elements of EQ style linear grind games and tried to throw them on top of a UO style sandbox, and this combination + a major, major problem with bugs and some of the worst balance issues of any MMORPG I have ever played would surely qualify SWG as a terribly designed game.
Really. Well, I'd go so far as to say they were supperior to EQ grind-wise. What is your solution? Getting max level in a couple of weeks? A month? What exactly?
They had all the right ideas, I think, but absolutely piss poor implementation.
Ahh, so it wasn't really the design then, just implemented poorly? Now that I could agree more on, SWG certainly needed more time in the hopper no doubt.
You seem to care an awful lot about "getting to max level" when we are talking about Sandbox games.
A TRUE sandbox has no level, no max, no grind, no end-game.
UO was the closest thing to a true sandbox because it was so easy and so fast to max out most skills. I think I 5x GM'd in the first few weeks and didn't even worry about skills or progression or "getting fat loots" for years...
Which is how a true sandbox should be.
I wouldn't be talking about "max level" if you weren't talking about the "grind".
Are you defining the rules for a sandbox now? I guess UO isn't a "true sandbox" by your definition because you "maxxed" so it appears you've got a conflict there. UO can't be a "true sandbox" by your standards.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
You seem to care an awful lot about "getting to max level" when we are talking about Sandbox games.
A TRUE sandbox has no level, no max, no grind, no end-game.
UO was the closest thing to a true sandbox because it was so easy and so fast to max out most skills. I think I 5x GM'd in the first few weeks and didn't even worry about skills or progression or "getting fat loots" for years...
Which is how a true sandbox should be.
I wouldn't be talking about "max level" if you weren't talking about the "grind".
Are you defining the rules for a sandbox now? I guess UO isn't a "true sandbox" by your definition because you "maxxed" so it appears you've got a conflict there. UO can't be a "true sandbox" by your standards.
That makes no sense what so ever.
SWG was a failure and most people LEFT when WoW/EQ2 came out (or before) because the code was garbage, the engine was garbage, the grind was ridiculous, and the balancing was worse.
They did the NGE/CU to try and save the game after the mass exodus, which is ironic because it drove off the dedicated players they still had left.
Oops. Bad move SOE. Bad move.
If SWG would have hung on, as originally intended, and improved over time I think it'd be very similar to EvE online - niche but features steady growth and a loyal player base.
Which is kind of funny because that is exactly what SWG did until it was (sadly) shut down. Though, I am not too sure about the "improved over time part" I tried playing the trial a couple of times actually and many of the same issues from LAUNCH were still in the game, sadly.
WoW, started out like every other MMO, don't make it something it isn't . Large raids and world. They adapted and simplified , broadened the appeal and coded the game so that it basically runs on a Com 64 powered by a hamster wheel, and two cup with a string between them . It has 14 million subscribers because it's popular in the entire world , it has world wide appeal . The majority of subscribers are outside of NA and the EU. The scope of the appeal isn't limited to one geographic local. It's a solid game with years of content behind it. What's there to misunderstand. They haven't done anything that wasn't done in previous MMO's . Something to be said for customer service and fixing problems quickly and effectivily. Is really a mystery ? SWG had a bigger following , just SOE couldn't get a grip on the netcode and fix problems quickly enough to keep subs, also those who were there, think back to customer service.
(long post)
hello sir,
i played wow vanilla from release (technically 6 days after release). it did not have large raids, molten core the first 40 man came out like 4 months after release.
and the seccond month after release upper blackrock spire was just barely released. it was a 5 man instance capable of up to 10 men, which later shifted towards 15 man; still only a quarter of the wow style large raid though.
until then the raiding mechanic was pretty much used for world PvP where groups who loved the lore attacked the major cities, even though downing the various heros didn't grant any gear.
with time Blizzard changed the target demographic and it started fairly early on. upper black rock spire (UBRS) enterance had a design flaw. if one jumped on a ledge and then onto a chain to a ledge then to a veranda, one could get to the instance enterance without having to burn through a bunch of mobs. when blizzard found out about this they redesigned it with a patch to made the jumps easier to complete. this was the first of a long series of nerfs which altered the demographic towards a more popular audience, from the cult following they had.
i left the game near the end of vanilla (level 60 cap), and the heals i was doing are the same values at the same frequency as the fully geared 85s today.
the target market was the RTS croud who loved Warcraft. it was because of the RTS mindset going in that so much player based 'content' was created; even without any major perks from the programers themselves. we went into it wanting to recreate the battle of grim batol, etc and to a degree we felt appeased for a time with how the mechanics functioned.
we didn't start off doing that because there was a ton of content in the game; there wasn't. but because there was passion and intrigue enough to inspire us to make our own content. the 'years of content' was likely a selling point to the more mainstream croud it was progressively marketed towards but what made the game a success was the launch, and what made the launch was the passion and comunity. there were a few 'horde only' instances (due to location), and getting your guild to fight a path for you to be able to experiance the instance was part of the game. the one in ogrimar was by far my favorite due to the very limited relevance. but the one in the barrens was also fun to get to; as well as to experiance.
and the claim about bugs isn't true, i remember getting stuck in trees and roots and rocks on numberous occations. as well as falling through the world and a boat getting so lost at sea it went aground and continued sailing through arathi, as well as griphons falling off their railed flightpaths, and skiding delightfully neckfirst around on the ground. and pulling mobs in full vision of allied mobs and only geting the people pulled- the rest were indifferent to the slaughter of their buddies; i guess they were on hold position ;P. and all that was still happening a month before the burning crusade.
it was all the context created by lore and community and tollerated/supported by the mechanics. archage might be the first to really clone that aspect, just though quite amazing mechanics. great mechaninics will propogate the same type of community, and that will supplement created/coded lore with personal significance which comes from interpersonal interactions. the rest fail because the cloning was superficial without any of the drive.that is my position anyway.
take rift, it is basically WoW with invasions. the concept of an invasion means something specific to a great many people but what was implemented didn't feel like an invasion, just a bunch of the same type of mobs on the same rail system runing down a nodal network of roads to attack teh cities. that could have been amazing but it didn't feel disimilar to me to having wild animals just outside of town which get in fights with guards. sure the invasion/guard dichotomy was mroe feirce, but there wasn't any raid style act which set off the invasion, so you ended up with a bunch of strangers PUGing a defense rather than a feirce battle with friends which has personal significance. (as of the beta) and because there was no invasion as rebuke for meaningfull group actions, it became meaningless. it wasn't like killing onyxia and putting her head on stormwind caused a bonus world boss to attack the city.
the lore combined with the mechanics make or break the game. if neither intrigue the game fails.
I kind of agree with the OP, though I think it had more to do with WoW being the FIRST easy to get into, easy to play big name MMO. That it had such an immersive world (i.e. many different types of zone, high level next to low level, some shared between races and others not, way more zones than you needed to level even if some were a bit bare, etc.) helped a lot. It also took the average player about 3 months to level their first toon, and milestones like getting your first / epic mount really meant something; all of which kept you wanting to play, and even to level alts to checkout / level up in all the different zones.
This all combined into a snowball effect, where one person started playing, then got their friends involved, and very few of them left. That WoW continues to be so popular I believe has NOTHING to do with it's current gameplay and everything to do with it's community. As terrible as that community is, it's BIG, which means there is no shortage of people to play with. In other words people play WoW because people play WoW, they have friends there, they have a home there.
Just to touch on why so many so called 'WoW clones' have failed... it's because they copy WoWs gameplay, but they constantly fail to copy WoWs world. They streamline everything, they make it so players can't wander into high level zones, they have constant and rapid but ultimately short lived reward paths (level, getting a mount, etc.) and IMO their biggest failing is that they are designed to be completed, they are designed so that even the most casual of players can get to level cap in about a month, and they are designed to so that hardcore players can see and do everything in about 2 months, there is no life there, there is no longevity there, there is no time to build a home.
Sorry, almost done... but speaking of SWTOR, IMO the story is what will ultimately kill SWTOR. Sure it's new, and fancy, but it came at a very large cost, namely everything else in the game, and worst of all for an MMO it runs out very fast, it's costly and expensive create more and it divides the world and thus divides the player base. MMOs should not be about a developer told 'story', they should be about a world (or universe), with lore, and people and if done even half right the stories will write themselves.
I wasn't a warcraft fan when I started WoW. I was even wary due to the cartoony nature of the graphics but a buddy of mine had just started it and he said I had to try it it was awesome. He was right. What made it awesome is how it FELT. Character feedback and world immersion(not graphically, although they aren't too shabby for a cartoon). I just remember how each class felt completely different than the others, I remember how moving around sounded and felt fluid and just "right". I remember the World seeming vast and huge and I literally did not see all of it until I had about 3 max level characters under my belt and even then there were areas/quests I had never seen. Then, with PVP there was the whole fast and fun aspect. When you died you didn't have to worry about xp loss or other stupid penalty you could hop back into the fray and have FUN again. PVE, the enemy AI was different per monster. They all don't act the same and they pull or respond differently all across the world. Many of the games today that clone WoW make clumps of Mobs that all act the same across the world so that I feel like I'm fighting the same mob no matter the skin. Add to that music for each zone is memorable, sound effects were top notch and fit the action on screen. It was a snowball effect of polish, polish, and FUN.
I think you described wows success to 100% here.
There is à special FEELING in the game that no new game has. Every starting area feels, looks, sounds good. Character animations are smooth and when fighting you HIT the mob with the right timing. Most, if not all, new games allow you to stand some distance from the mob, swinging you sword in mid air and still you damage the mob, and that is a killer of the feeling factor.
Blizzard did everything right, a real polished game with a good feel. Now, sadly i dont like all the stuff they did to the game, like killing world PvP
You seem to care an awful lot about "getting to max level" when we are talking about Sandbox games.
A TRUE sandbox has no level, no max, no grind, no end-game.
UO was the closest thing to a true sandbox because it was so easy and so fast to max out most skills. I think I 5x GM'd in the first few weeks and didn't even worry about skills or progression or "getting fat loots" for years...
Which is how a true sandbox should be.
I wouldn't be talking about "max level" if you weren't talking about the "grind".
Are you defining the rules for a sandbox now? I guess UO isn't a "true sandbox" by your definition because you "maxxed" so it appears you've got a conflict there. UO can't be a "true sandbox" by your standards.
That makes no sense what so ever.
SWG was a failure and most people LEFT when WoW/EQ2 came out (or before) because the code was garbage, the engine was garbage, the grind was ridiculous, and the balancing was worse.
They did the NGE/CU to try and save the game after the mass exodus, which is ironic because it drove off the dedicated players they still had left.
Oops. Bad move SOE. Bad move.
If SWG would have hung on, as originally intended, and improved over time I think it'd be very similar to EvE online - niche but features steady growth and a loyal player base.
Which is kind of funny because that is exactly what SWG did until it was (sadly) shut down. Though, I am not too sure about the "improved over time part" I tried playing the trial a couple of times actually and many of the same issues from LAUNCH were still in the game, sadly.
But that is a whole different discussion.
I don't understand how you could be such a big fan of UO and hate SWG. I played both, loved them both, but loved SWG more.
SWG had a brilliant design, the depth of crafting systems unmatched. The taming system has been unmatched. The problem was that it was released too soon, yes it was buggy. But even with all the bugs, it was still the best sandbox ever created IMO, UO would be a close second for me.
It doesn't really matter now though. Our future is lined up for us, a linear path full of half-a** themeparks where content is extinguished in a matter of weeks. Freedom is a thing of the past, long live the mighty Box.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Comments
I don't think wow's success had much to do with the IP, but I agree that current devs are missing some of the things that made wow a success. I would say that wow's immersion factor was very high due to a large seamless world, their choice of art direction, and their insanely good execution of that lighthearted style. The gameplay wasn't new but it was super tuned for addictiveness. They way that you progressed in power through each level and with each new piece of gear was really well done. I think wow has lost some of this addictive progression with the latest expansions, but now they are catering to people who have played through the game multiple times.
most importantly, wow really was a new thing for alot of people who were playing an mmo for the first time. In order to repeat wow's success your product needs to invoke some sense of novelty that goes beyond little twists and gimmicks.
Well I will say this after being in the beta from phase 2 on and getting a free copy of the game for doing so I enjoyed the game then. But as time went on I got bored with it and didn't see the fun in it after 3-4 months been awhile sense those days. Sense then I have gone back every expasion to date to see whats new and see the changes. To me WoW was pretty stable game very polished at launch just like GW1 and Rifts was but it had its down time to cause they couldn't keep up with all the players coming in to the game 240,000 copies sold day one and then they sold out by dec nation wide (ALMOST) it was the biggest and best selling PC game ever beating every record on release day for any PCgame. Today I am not a fan of it but I do rread all the lore and story I can find on Azeroth cause it is fantastic lore and history. As for everything else I dont remember there being a Raid in it at launch it came months if not a year latter it did have alot of world bosses and some instance dungeons that where hard to do then the first raid came out and its all over from there they started something and it followed to every game almost all the companys started copying differant things from each other. I remember when DDO was anounced and they said dungeon finder groups then a month or so latter WoW had it better and bigger then them. Even battle grounds where a rip off of GW Battle ground type settings. They learned cause they took alot of ideas from other games and built on them and then something happend it wasn't enough they had to something more then came phasing then Cata changing the world which was bound to happen cause the books tell the Deathwing would return and bring the world crashing down at his feet.
Theres alot I can write on this and tell you but wont when I played I was the Red Shirt guy I knew everything about the lore and history that my wife used to say if there was a class on Azeroth history I would be the teacher. But to me now thats all it is history I just can't bring myself to play it except for the free 1-20 thing and I do that about every 5 months or so jump on my Drani Pally and do BG's or run around doing the low level dungeons and yes full explorer on him been everywhere but places that need flyer and high lvl content that requeres you to out to get there (Outlands and Frozen North). But yeah this is just my go back to remember it game wish they would change the combat to a more action style though.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
What? By themepark or sandbox standards? And please explain what features were poorly designed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
WoW was so successful for a number of reasons.
1) Blizzard allready had a huge fanbase for the Warcraft Franchise.
2) Blizzard had a great reputation, like Bioware until they released DA2. Something has a Blizz Logo on it? Will be a masterpiece.
3) WoW was the first of its kind. There simply were not many other MMOs around, and Blizz was not aiming for the few MMO Players of that time, they were aiming for the masses and Warcraft fans.
Since everything gets old after sometime, even WoW, or the "WoW model" and the market today is super saturated, and there are only so many potentional customers, SWTOR for example, does not have the impact WoW had, although the reasons 1) and 2) could be applied to it aswell. Just not reason 3).
Sorry been up for 16 hrs so far beta testing another game no not GW2 wish but no. So my bad on the spelling and no I will not fix.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
One of the largest mistakes that MMO developers, hell GAME developers, do today is release unfinished products. SWTOR was released basically in the state that Vanilla WoW was released. To me, you don't release a themepark MMO without certain things like a LFG system/Dugeon finder, basic UI customization and other things and then release them as content in an up-comming patch.
Whatever people think about what good/bad WoW has brought to the genre, it's hard to imagine games being released without the new (what I perceive) as MMO basic features and I see that as good. It helps seperate the good from the bad.
OP this is a amazing you told us the secret behind blizzards succes with WoW we never discussed this here on forum we where guessing for years in the dark but now WE KNOW. Your the first to tell us, thank, thank you for this amazing discovery why WoW is what it is now thank you.
Now can we move on with our daily routine here on the forum pls, enough of this nonsens:)
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No, their continued success is due to 1 & 2 which were due to the overwhelming success of the WoW product, the success of WoW came because of #3 as well as it broke the mold and succeeded in doing so.
Both.
The progression mechanics were similar in theory to a Ultima Online style in that you mixed and matched professions in order to build a unique character, which was good, but forced an excessive number of hours spent grinding to raise these professions like the Everquest style, which was bad.
The content in the game was thusly also based soley upon grinding, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in a well designed sandbox game.
The "themepark" elements to SWG, including the quest areas/chains they actually called Themeparks in the game (Jabba's Palace, Rebel Themepark, Imperial Themepark) were a buggy mess that required you to be at certain milestones in your character progression (again, more grinding) to complete them - just like any "modern" themepark MMO where quests and content are gated and closed off to play until you reach the appropriate level.
The other Themepark elements like the monthly story arcs were the same story as the Jabba's Palace/Rebel/Imperial themeparks - buggy mess of gated content.
I'd go as far to say that SWG had some of the worst elements of EQ style linear grind games and tried to throw them on top of a UO style sandbox, and this combination + a major, major problem with bugs and some of the worst balance issues of any MMORPG I have ever played would surely qualify SWG as a terribly designed game.
They had all the right ideas, I think, but absolutely piss poor implementation.
I went to WoW from Anarchy Online,and WoW felt like a joke.
But world/same server BG´s PvP and extremely accurate controls got me to continue,like playing Counter Strike with 0.001 latency.
if WoW had latency and ability delays like swtor?most likely F2P 5 years ago.
Let's internet
I found it immersive. 8 virtues with 8 counter evils. Long history in a fantasy setting.
I didn't know a damn thing about UO lore and never played the single player Ultima games before UO. My experiece w/ Ultima lore (or lack there of I should say) probably biased me.
I still loved UO.
Wouldn't say I found it immersive in a RP kind of sense, but it was a damn fine game and fun.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I'm curious, do people recall that Everquest (1) had more than a million active players? I recall being online the first itme it hit 500,000 players online at one time. Do others?
Wow's numbers are not what make's it success so unique (though certainly they've set the record). What's unique is they managed to keep the lead for so long. The numbers were bound to come to some game or other eventually as more and more households got decent computers and dumped dial-up.
I think that is due to no other game coming out with a better model (as suggested by the OP), but I also think that is because they managed to not piss off their player base like Verient and SOE did. Instead Blizzard continuously lowered the bar so as to keep folks happy and make everyeone 'successful'. That works for a while. For the first company that does it at least. But eventually we all catch on and get bored.
If this were all true then WoW's numbers would have never continued to be as plentiful as they are now or during it's life. The real truth is that WoW can still best most of what's out these days. Apart from the opinions about the lore and balance, Blizzard has a game that is almost a decade old and out-performs many others in many ways. The most prevalent is the engine and how smooth everything is in a fluid combat situation. Even with this engine being a decade old, I'd still rather play on it vs. SWTOR or any other game I've played since.
I'm looking forward to GW2 and hoping it flows as well as WoW.
You seem to care an awful lot about "getting to max level" when we are talking about Sandbox games.
A TRUE sandbox has no level, no max, no grind, no end-game.
UO was the closest thing to a true sandbox because it was so easy and so fast to max out most skills. I think I 5x GM'd in the first few weeks and didn't even worry about skills or progression or "getting fat loots" for years...
Which is how a true sandbox should be.
It acheived a critical mass, once you got a certain number of players that attracts new players, especially players who never played mmos before - they're going to go the one with "12 million subs" - it must be the best right?
EverQuest launched with modest expectations from Sony on 16 March 1999 under its Verant Interactive brand and quickly became successful. By the end of the year, it had surpassed competitor Ultima Online in number of subscriptions. Numbers continued rising rapidly until mid-2001 when growth slowed. Sony's last reported subscription numbers were given as "more than 430,000 players" on 14 January 2004.[14]
I wouldn't be talking about "max level" if you weren't talking about the "grind".
Are you defining the rules for a sandbox now? I guess UO isn't a "true sandbox" by your definition because you "maxxed" so it appears you've got a conflict there. UO can't be a "true sandbox" by your standards.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
There is no fucking "true" sandbox. In fact, you could probably define it very broadly.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
That makes no sense what so ever.
SWG was a failure and most people LEFT when WoW/EQ2 came out (or before) because the code was garbage, the engine was garbage, the grind was ridiculous, and the balancing was worse.
They did the NGE/CU to try and save the game after the mass exodus, which is ironic because it drove off the dedicated players they still had left.
Oops. Bad move SOE. Bad move.
If SWG would have hung on, as originally intended, and improved over time I think it'd be very similar to EvE online - niche but features steady growth and a loyal player base.
Which is kind of funny because that is exactly what SWG did until it was (sadly) shut down. Though, I am not too sure about the "improved over time part" I tried playing the trial a couple of times actually and many of the same issues from LAUNCH were still in the game, sadly.
But that is a whole different discussion.
(long post)
hello sir,
i played wow vanilla from release (technically 6 days after release). it did not have large raids, molten core the first 40 man came out like 4 months after release.
and the seccond month after release upper blackrock spire was just barely released. it was a 5 man instance capable of up to 10 men, which later shifted towards 15 man; still only a quarter of the wow style large raid though.
until then the raiding mechanic was pretty much used for world PvP where groups who loved the lore attacked the major cities, even though downing the various heros didn't grant any gear.
with time Blizzard changed the target demographic and it started fairly early on. upper black rock spire (UBRS) enterance had a design flaw. if one jumped on a ledge and then onto a chain to a ledge then to a veranda, one could get to the instance enterance without having to burn through a bunch of mobs. when blizzard found out about this they redesigned it with a patch to made the jumps easier to complete. this was the first of a long series of nerfs which altered the demographic towards a more popular audience, from the cult following they had.
i left the game near the end of vanilla (level 60 cap), and the heals i was doing are the same values at the same frequency as the fully geared 85s today.
the target market was the RTS croud who loved Warcraft. it was because of the RTS mindset going in that so much player based 'content' was created; even without any major perks from the programers themselves. we went into it wanting to recreate the battle of grim batol, etc and to a degree we felt appeased for a time with how the mechanics functioned.
we didn't start off doing that because there was a ton of content in the game; there wasn't. but because there was passion and intrigue enough to inspire us to make our own content. the 'years of content' was likely a selling point to the more mainstream croud it was progressively marketed towards but what made the game a success was the launch, and what made the launch was the passion and comunity. there were a few 'horde only' instances (due to location), and getting your guild to fight a path for you to be able to experiance the instance was part of the game. the one in ogrimar was by far my favorite due to the very limited relevance. but the one in the barrens was also fun to get to; as well as to experiance.
and the claim about bugs isn't true, i remember getting stuck in trees and roots and rocks on numberous occations. as well as falling through the world and a boat getting so lost at sea it went aground and continued sailing through arathi, as well as griphons falling off their railed flightpaths, and skiding delightfully neckfirst around on the ground. and pulling mobs in full vision of allied mobs and only geting the people pulled- the rest were indifferent to the slaughter of their buddies; i guess they were on hold position ;P. and all that was still happening a month before the burning crusade.
it was all the context created by lore and community and tollerated/supported by the mechanics. archage might be the first to really clone that aspect, just though quite amazing mechanics. great mechaninics will propogate the same type of community, and that will supplement created/coded lore with personal significance which comes from interpersonal interactions. the rest fail because the cloning was superficial without any of the drive.that is my position anyway.
take rift, it is basically WoW with invasions. the concept of an invasion means something specific to a great many people but what was implemented didn't feel like an invasion, just a bunch of the same type of mobs on the same rail system runing down a nodal network of roads to attack teh cities. that could have been amazing but it didn't feel disimilar to me to having wild animals just outside of town which get in fights with guards. sure the invasion/guard dichotomy was mroe feirce, but there wasn't any raid style act which set off the invasion, so you ended up with a bunch of strangers PUGing a defense rather than a feirce battle with friends which has personal significance. (as of the beta) and because there was no invasion as rebuke for meaningfull group actions, it became meaningless. it wasn't like killing onyxia and putting her head on stormwind caused a bonus world boss to attack the city.
the lore combined with the mechanics make or break the game. if neither intrigue the game fails.
I kind of agree with the OP, though I think it had more to do with WoW being the FIRST easy to get into, easy to play big name MMO. That it had such an immersive world (i.e. many different types of zone, high level next to low level, some shared between races and others not, way more zones than you needed to level even if some were a bit bare, etc.) helped a lot. It also took the average player about 3 months to level their first toon, and milestones like getting your first / epic mount really meant something; all of which kept you wanting to play, and even to level alts to checkout / level up in all the different zones.
This all combined into a snowball effect, where one person started playing, then got their friends involved, and very few of them left. That WoW continues to be so popular I believe has NOTHING to do with it's current gameplay and everything to do with it's community. As terrible as that community is, it's BIG, which means there is no shortage of people to play with. In other words people play WoW because people play WoW, they have friends there, they have a home there.
Just to touch on why so many so called 'WoW clones' have failed... it's because they copy WoWs gameplay, but they constantly fail to copy WoWs world. They streamline everything, they make it so players can't wander into high level zones, they have constant and rapid but ultimately short lived reward paths (level, getting a mount, etc.) and IMO their biggest failing is that they are designed to be completed, they are designed so that even the most casual of players can get to level cap in about a month, and they are designed to so that hardcore players can see and do everything in about 2 months, there is no life there, there is no longevity there, there is no time to build a home.
Sorry, almost done... but speaking of SWTOR, IMO the story is what will ultimately kill SWTOR. Sure it's new, and fancy, but it came at a very large cost, namely everything else in the game, and worst of all for an MMO it runs out very fast, it's costly and expensive create more and it divides the world and thus divides the player base. MMOs should not be about a developer told 'story', they should be about a world (or universe), with lore, and people and if done even half right the stories will write themselves.
OK, done.
I think you described wows success to 100% here.There is à special FEELING in the game that no new game has. Every starting area feels, looks, sounds good.
Character animations are smooth and when fighting you HIT the mob with the right timing. Most, if not all, new games allow you to stand some distance from the mob, swinging you sword in mid air and still you damage the mob, and that is a killer of the feeling factor.
Blizzard did everything right, a real polished game with a good feel.
Now, sadly i dont like all the stuff they did to the game, like killing world PvP
I don't understand how you could be such a big fan of UO and hate SWG. I played both, loved them both, but loved SWG more.
SWG had a brilliant design, the depth of crafting systems unmatched. The taming system has been unmatched. The problem was that it was released too soon, yes it was buggy. But even with all the bugs, it was still the best sandbox ever created IMO, UO would be a close second for me.
It doesn't really matter now though. Our future is lined up for us, a linear path full of half-a** themeparks where content is extinguished in a matter of weeks. Freedom is a thing of the past, long live the mighty Box.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky