So I guess I leave this with a few questions: Why did the genre take this route? the route of safety, the route of WoW cloneing? And more importantly, why do the gamers continue to support this? (I'm as guilty as anyone)...
You know how we got here.
EQ did better than UO. After EQ... most games were more like EQ.. than UO.
WoW did better than EQ... and now most games are more like WoW.
Why do gamers support this? Well the global market is much larger than it was in 1997 when I started. Did you ever stop to think maybe the vast majority of those millions of people... actually like WoW and games like it?
Did you ever think that gamers like us are in fact a minority? That if we took our money and went home the industry wouldn't even notice?
If the gamers supporting it... like it... that's not bad. Its not like they have some duty to only support games we would like..
I'd love a modern day UO... I have ideas of what I'd like that game to be. I don't know that I will ever see that game.. but I think about it often enough.
WoW advertised EQ 2 didnt which is why WoW ended up on top of subscriptions.
because you know those mechanics that made EQ1 hardcore? in reality many people hated the hell out of them, and complained about them constantly on various forums. people were "forced" to play EQ1 because there was nothing else out there like it.
oh and EQ1 ... it was a themepark stop acting like WoW was the first themepark.
If everyone hated it why is it still going even after 13 odd years and still making a healthy profit each month.
It all comes down to Two thing's DUNGEON FINDERS and F2P.
- They kill communities,
- Players quit mmo's, later to return. Now they don't come back or stay for long if they go F2P or have a dungeon finder.
- F2P, How could you expect others to have the same zone packages as you ?
You know what grinds my gears ?......Goofey people that think they like dungeon finders because they could play casual, yet they secretly get bored because the mmo is solo with no community....They can't link the problem together.
Short story :
I don't like SWTOR, but thats besides the point. Two workers next to me are talking about SWTOR all day long. One is a Guild officer and talks about setting up guild events constantly. I usually stay out of it, but turned to him and said SWTOR will be getting a Dungeon finder soon. His reply " great, I like dungeon finders ".
Well, he is in for a rude awakening....Lets wait and see when the game introduces the Dungeon Finder and how he gets players to do his events.....They will blow him off in a second to do Dungeons without him or the guild.
Many people never puts two and two together as far as how Dungeon Finders kill communities !!!
I can tell you what happened -- excessive FAIRNESS.
What the early MMOs had that recent MMOs do not is that they were UNFAIR.
Note unfair was a GOOD thing....
-----
Lets look at class balance first...
Today -- everyone has to be EQUAL... Everything needs to be fair... If one class can kill monster X solo -- then another class can probably kill monster X solo as well.
Now look at something like everquest as it was at release...
SOME classes could solo really well -- other classes under some situations -- some classes couldnt solo pretty much AT ALL. Some classes pretty much even needed escort to get back to the dungeon or they would die trying to get there.
Some classes had gate and bind and speed and other classes did NOT. If you played a warrior type in everquest 1 then you had to run to get there and you had to run to get back. You did NOT have gate. If you wanted to change your bind point you had to find someone to bind you somewhere. And it had to be in a town where the caster could bind just about anywhere.
It wasnt FAIR. It didnt NEED to be fair.
That caster had far lower strength than the warrior. He couldnt carry as much stuff. Nowadays all games have just slots and everyone can carry the same amount -- it is FAIR... Fair is not always good.
----
Look at items...
It is unfair that someone can build up money and then just buy that uber item with coin... They should have to do the dungeon themselves... Hence we got BoP -- it is FAIR...
Look at racial abilities...
It is unfair that race X has power Y because that makes it better than my race... Hence to be FAIR we get homoginized races where racials do not really mean anything.
Even racial stats/class choice.
It is unfair that ogres have a huge amount more strength than an pixie. I want to play my pixie warrior and do as much damage as ogres.... Hence we ended up with losing the racial stats and we ended up all ARAP(all races all professions) instead of having classes limited to races that would logically have them.
----
What we are currently suffering from is an excess of FAIRNESS... If things were a lot more unfair then people would have a lot better time with the games.
Its dissapointing isnt it, i missed the old EQ 1 system.
The answer to this is VERY simple. Unfortunately a huge majority (small number of people really) refuse to accept the answer.
EQ1, Ultima Online... These "hard-core" "good" MMO's you guys keep talking about had 100k maybe 200k total people playing them. That was GOOD back in the day. Modern MMO's have to push MILLIONS of people otherwise they're a modern day failure.
Er, EQ had about 500k, SWG had about 700-800k. That's better than the majority of modern day MMOs, and that was back in dial up days when almost no one was playing MMOs. So imagine what those games would have nowadays? And considering the budget and teams of those games were much smaller, I'd venture to say the success of those early games dwarf anything modern MMOs have acomplished other than WoW.
As for modern hardcore MMOs not getting many players, there haven't BEEN any hardcore AAA MMOs. You have a very warped memory I think. And because YOU enjoy modern MMOs, that's great! Play them! We're here because we're a massive chunk of people WITHOUT a game to play.
I remember playing EQ on my dial up connection disconnected every 4 hours > > good times though good times
EQ also put out more content and more often than WoW does.
I can tell you what happened -- excessive FAIRNESS.
What the early MMOs had that recent MMOs do not is that they were UNFAIR.
Note unfair was a GOOD thing....
-----
Lets look at class balance first...
Today -- everyone has to be EQUAL... Everything needs to be fair... If one class can kill monster X solo -- then another class can probably kill monster X solo as well.
Now look at something like everquest as it was at release...
SOME classes could solo really well -- other classes under some situations -- some classes couldnt solo pretty much AT ALL. Some classes pretty much even needed escort to get back to the dungeon or they would die trying to get there.
Some classes had gate and bind and speed and other classes did NOT. If you played a warrior type in everquest 1 then you had to run to get there and you had to run to get back. You did NOT have gate. If you wanted to change your bind point you had to find someone to bind you somewhere. And it had to be in a town where the caster could bind just about anywhere.
It wasnt FAIR. It didnt NEED to be fair.
That caster had far lower strength than the warrior. He couldnt carry as much stuff. Nowadays all games have just slots and everyone can carry the same amount -- it is FAIR... Fair is not always good.
----
Look at items...
It is unfair that someone can build up money and then just buy that uber item with coin... They should have to do the dungeon themselves... Hence we got BoP -- it is FAIR...
Look at racial abilities...
It is unfair that race X has power Y because that makes it better than my race... Hence to be FAIR we get homoginized races where racials do not really mean anything.
Even racial stats/class choice.
It is unfair that ogres have a huge amount more strength than an pixie. I want to play my pixie warrior and do as much damage as ogres.... Hence we ended up with losing the racial stats and we ended up all ARAP(all races all professions) instead of having classes limited to races that would logically have them.
----
What we are currently suffering from is an excess of FAIRNESS... If things were a lot more unfair then people would have a lot better time with the games.
This post, is my nomination for post of the year thus far. I agree with everything that is said in it. The problem is a lot of us did in fact complain about travel times, death penalties, not being able to get a bind, etc. etc... It's easy to see why that could happen. When you look at things in a narrow minded and selfish way, these are in fact valid complaints. Everyone has the right to do that if they want, it's their money, and it's their choice to play the game or not. The problem ends up being that nobody sees the damage being done until it is too late.
I remember back in EQ1, when I needed a bind, or a SOW, or help with a corpse run and had to ask people for help, often times it would start conversations with the people that were helping, which in turn would create a new friend. Someone to play the game with. Guilds were formed this way. A guild I was in during EQ1 for... GGod I don't even know... 5+ years, I was introduced to them in their fledgling state by asking a cleric for a res. I remember she went way out of her way to do so, and we started talking. Then I met her husband who was a monk, and they at some point needed a tank (I was a SK) and the entire long lasting relationship started of something that isn't even possible in current MMORPGs. I actually still talk to those people even today. We don't game together anymore, but a ton of my old EQ1 guild members I have kept in contact with and we still talk on a semi-regular basis. I just don't see any way that can happen in the current climate when everyone can do anything. You don't NEED anyone. Nobody needs to put their ego aside and help someone really.
The current way of doing quests is also a problem. You have to keep exact pace with your friends or there is no point in even doing anything but trying to race to level cap so you can finially all play together without hassles. But you better have known those people before the current NNO you are playing, or there is no loyalty, and no real friendship there. People drop in and out for help with their a to b quest, and most of the time don't even speak to one another. I remember, again going back to EQ1, when it was odd and uncomfortable if someone in your group didn't talk. Now it is the norm to n ot say anything.
It's interesting to me that this site reviewed Kingdoms of Alamur. That game, is basically a MMORPG. Yes, there are no other real life player populating the world, but it illustrates the point that you don't need anyone to play a MMORPG with now. It is the same format as all these other games that are out, but without the people whining about WoW in general chat, both the pros and cons of it.
I'm at a loss for what to do about MMO's at this point. I think Micro$oft bailing on Vanguard really put the nail in the coffin for cooperative MMO gaming. That really is a good game, but the release was horrid, one of the worst ever, and it was never able to recover from it. Since then, I don't really see much in the way of games with the cooperative mentality, aside from end game raiding, which now everyone pretty much has to do or you run out of options.
I miss the community aspect of these older games. The truth is the only way to build it up is to force people to interact with one another, and the only way to do that is to make it so everyone needs one another. Games aren't made that way anymore, and it's too bad.
This post, is my nomination for post of the year thus far. I agree with everything that is said in it. The problem is a lot of us did in fact complain about travel times, death penalties, not being able to get a bind, etc. etc... It's easy to see why that could happen. When you look at things in a narrow minded and selfish way, these are in fact valid complaints. Everyone has the right to do that if they want, it's their money, and it's their choice to play the game or not. The problem ends up being that nobody sees the damage being done until it is too late.
I remember back in EQ1, when I needed a bind, or a SOW, or help with a corpse run and had to ask people for help, often times it would start conversations with the people that were helping, which in turn would create a new friend. Someone to play the game with. Guilds were formed this way. A guild I was in during EQ1 for... GGod I don't even know... 5+ years, I was introduced to them in their fledgling state by asking a cleric for a res. I remember she went way out of her way to do so, and we started talking. Then I met her husband who was a monk, and they at some point needed a tank (I was a SK) and the entire long lasting relationship started of something that isn't even possible in current MMORPGs. I actually still talk to those people even today. We don't game together anymore, but a ton of my old EQ1 guild members I have kept in contact with and we still talk on a semi-regular basis. I just don't see any way that can happen in the current climate when everyone can do anything. You don't NEED anyone. Nobody needs to put their ego aside and help someone really.
The current way of doing quests is also a problem. You have to keep exact pace with your friends or there is no point in even doing anything but trying to race to level cap so you can finially all play together without hassles. But you better have known those people before the current NNO you are playing, or there is no loyalty, and no real friendship there. People drop in and out for help with their a to b quest, and most of the time don't even speak to one another. I remember, again going back to EQ1, when it was odd and uncomfortable if someone in your group didn't talk. Now it is the norm to n ot say anything.
It's interesting to me that this site reviewed Kingdoms of Alamur. That game, is basically a MMORPG. Yes, there are no other real life player populating the world, but it illustrates the point that you don't need anyone to play a MMORPG with now. It is the same format as all these other games that are out, but without the people whining about WoW in general chat, both the pros and cons of it.
I'm at a loss for what to do about MMO's at this point. I think Micro$oft bailing on Vanguard really put the nail in the coffin for cooperative MMO gaming. That really is a good game, but the release was horrid, one of the worst ever, and it was never able to recover from it. Since then, I don't really see much in the way of games with the cooperative mentality, aside from end game raiding, which now everyone pretty much has to do or you run out of options.
I miss the community aspect of these older games. The truth is the only way to build it up is to force people to interact with one another, and the only way to do that is to make it so everyone needs one another. Games aren't made that way anymore, and it's too bad.
Exactly right : )
Almost exactly right. It was Sigil that bailed on Microsoft, not the other way around. They were having creative differences on the game's content, so Sigil bought out of their contract. If I recall correctly, M$ wanted a more WoW~esque game than Sigil wanted to produce. Its just unfortunate that of all the publishers they could've gone with, they chose SoE, who just in turn gutted Sigil and threw Vanguard on the back burner.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
Hero Evermore Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982. Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
You're not helping.
Its people like you that make people like them bitter toward people like us.
Let the GW2 fans have their game and stop trying to pee in other people's cheerios. Maybe then people will get off our backs about having our own game that we enjoy as well.
ive played gw2, im entitled to my opinion. if you are so happy about it then my words shouldn't matter. I didn't say anything to attack gw2. It just isn't game changing and thats a fact. I will be buying it and playing it cause its a fun ass game. It just changes noting in mmos. It just compiles good parts with no inventiveness.
Hero Evermore Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982. Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
You're not helping.
Its people like you that make people like them bitter toward people like us.
Let the GW2 fans have their game and stop trying to pee in other people's cheerios. Maybe then people will get off our backs about having our own game that we enjoy as well.
I don't feel bitter towards him. It's just sad such behaviour.
And as a note, no one is ever going to get what they truly want, just enjoy games as they are. Glaring design flaws left aside of course.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
You're not helping.
Its people like you that make people like them bitter toward people like us.
Let the GW2 fans have their game and stop trying to pee in other people's cheerios. Maybe then people will get off our backs about having our own game that we enjoy as well.
Hell...even when us old schoolers do voice an opinion on the type of game we would liek to see without directly slamming the new age game or types of games they like, they come in and tell us no one will make it....and why would you want that...or it will fail.
Doesn't matter what anyone says or how polite you try to be...the rabid fanboys will always shout as loud as they can to muffle us when we speak because they are greedy and selfish and want every MMORPG to meet their wants so they can hop game to game every other month when they burn through the content....which brings us to the point, or at least oen fo the points of this thread.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
oh thats curious, where did you encounter this excessive zoning and easy game play?, oh and lobbies?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I'm not an old-schooler, per se, but if I hadn't jumped into MMOs so late, then I probably would have enjoyed many of the games you guys are talking about. My first MMO was Ragnarok Online. It wasn't really themepark, but it wasn't really a sandbox, either. I havn't played it in years, but even then, it had changed a lot. That being said, I never could get into WoW, or any of its facsimilies, either. I really don't like the questing mechanic that seems to be the standard in to many games now. Hell, even singple-player games are adopting it.
A few years ago, my friend and I had a pretty in-depth conversation about what we would do in an MMO. And over the next few year, I would occasionally jot down what I thought was a good idea, and I would make tweaks sometimes. A while back, I opened it up and realized that I had 20 pages of game mechanics typed up. It was a little disorganized, but the point got across. At the time of writing most of it, I was completely oblivious to the whole "sanbox vs themepark" war, so after coming here and reading many of the "old-scool days" post, I realized that I was making a sandbaox game (well, at least considered by many people's standards to be one).
A few months ago, I picked up on the Gw2 hype. It actually annoyed me at first, so I just ignored the game. That's because I usually don't like hyped up things (and the rabid fanboys that accompany them). However, in December, I started paying more attantion to it. After a few weeks of watching videos and reading ahout it, I thought to myself, "this game looks more fun than the one that I've been working on." No, it doesn't have a lot of the features that mine had, but at the end of the day, it just looked like a lot fun.
My point is that the MMO market is changing. This is evident by AAA games trying to push the boarders of the established standards. Games like Minecraft have proven recently that millions of people can enjoy a game with little structured content... even Skyrim for that matter has many people attempting to make teir own adventure. Traditional quests are fading out (thank god). I'm not saying that the perfect sanbox game will be released soon, but the genre is evolving... in a good way, in my opinion. Some of the upcoming games seem to be attampting to be pushing the bounds on what is "safe", and the look interesting.
Comments
WoW advertised EQ 2 didnt which is why WoW ended up on top of subscriptions.
If everyone hated it why is it still going even after 13 odd years and still making a healthy profit each month.
It all comes down to Two thing's DUNGEON FINDERS and F2P.
- They kill communities,
- Players quit mmo's, later to return. Now they don't come back or stay for long if they go F2P or have a dungeon finder.
- F2P, How could you expect others to have the same zone packages as you ?
You know what grinds my gears ?......Goofey people that think they like dungeon finders because they could play casual, yet they secretly get bored because the mmo is solo with no community....They can't link the problem together.
Short story :
I don't like SWTOR, but thats besides the point. Two workers next to me are talking about SWTOR all day long. One is a Guild officer and talks about setting up guild events constantly. I usually stay out of it, but turned to him and said SWTOR will be getting a Dungeon finder soon. His reply " great, I like dungeon finders ".
Well, he is in for a rude awakening....Lets wait and see when the game introduces the Dungeon Finder and how he gets players to do his events.....They will blow him off in a second to do Dungeons without him or the guild.
Many people never puts two and two together as far as how Dungeon Finders kill communities !!!
Its dissapointing isnt it, i missed the old EQ 1 system.
I remember playing EQ on my dial up connection disconnected every 4 hours > > good times though good times
EQ also put out more content and more often than WoW does.
Exactly right : )
Almost exactly right. It was Sigil that bailed on Microsoft, not the other way around. They were having creative differences on the game's content, so Sigil bought out of their contract. If I recall correctly, M$ wanted a more WoW~esque game than Sigil wanted to produce. Its just unfortunate that of all the publishers they could've gone with, they chose SoE, who just in turn gutted Sigil and threw Vanguard on the back burner.
Sadly gw2 is the same. the game is extremely easy and the videos you see of press failing in dungeons is not what really happens in the beta. Its another wow clone expect worse. You are subject to SO MUCH ZONING it doesnt give you time to enjoy the feel of the game. Its a lobby game. Sad but true. Sure gw2 will sell a gazillion copies and everyone will say it was a huge success. But, it has no monthly fee and the amount of players actually playing a month afterward will probably be about 50% of those who bought it.
Sorry to burst some fanboi bubbles. GW2 is not the savior of mmorpgs. Not even close. The games that have a chance to be genre bending right now are games like ArcheAge. Which sadly doesnt even have a NA publisher. Why? because it isn't safe. Just like you said. No one wants to risk there safety net. TOR being the best example of a game that should have never even got made.
I await the day something comes around and truly bends the genre again. It will most likely be a game that gets 500k subs. Those of us taht play it will cherish it for what it is and laugh at the people falling into overhype. cough GW2 cough.
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
You're not helping.
Its people like you that make people like them bitter toward people like us.
Let the GW2 fans have their game and stop trying to pee in other people's cheerios. Maybe then people will get off our backs about having our own game that we enjoy as well.
ive played gw2, im entitled to my opinion. if you are so happy about it then my words shouldn't matter. I didn't say anything to attack gw2. It just isn't game changing and thats a fact. I will be buying it and playing it cause its a fun ass game. It just changes noting in mmos. It just compiles good parts with no inventiveness.
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
I don't feel bitter towards him. It's just sad such behaviour.
And as a note, no one is ever going to get what they truly want, just enjoy games as they are. Glaring design flaws left aside of course.
Hell...even when us old schoolers do voice an opinion on the type of game we would liek to see without directly slamming the new age game or types of games they like, they come in and tell us no one will make it....and why would you want that...or it will fail.
Doesn't matter what anyone says or how polite you try to be...the rabid fanboys will always shout as loud as they can to muffle us when we speak because they are greedy and selfish and want every MMORPG to meet their wants so they can hop game to game every other month when they burn through the content....which brings us to the point, or at least oen fo the points of this thread.
oh thats curious, where did you encounter this excessive zoning and easy game play?, oh and lobbies?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I'm not an old-schooler, per se, but if I hadn't jumped into MMOs so late, then I probably would have enjoyed many of the games you guys are talking about. My first MMO was Ragnarok Online. It wasn't really themepark, but it wasn't really a sandbox, either. I havn't played it in years, but even then, it had changed a lot. That being said, I never could get into WoW, or any of its facsimilies, either. I really don't like the questing mechanic that seems to be the standard in to many games now. Hell, even singple-player games are adopting it.
A few years ago, my friend and I had a pretty in-depth conversation about what we would do in an MMO. And over the next few year, I would occasionally jot down what I thought was a good idea, and I would make tweaks sometimes. A while back, I opened it up and realized that I had 20 pages of game mechanics typed up. It was a little disorganized, but the point got across. At the time of writing most of it, I was completely oblivious to the whole "sanbox vs themepark" war, so after coming here and reading many of the "old-scool days" post, I realized that I was making a sandbaox game (well, at least considered by many people's standards to be one).
A few months ago, I picked up on the Gw2 hype. It actually annoyed me at first, so I just ignored the game. That's because I usually don't like hyped up things (and the rabid fanboys that accompany them). However, in December, I started paying more attantion to it. After a few weeks of watching videos and reading ahout it, I thought to myself, "this game looks more fun than the one that I've been working on." No, it doesn't have a lot of the features that mine had, but at the end of the day, it just looked like a lot fun.
My point is that the MMO market is changing. This is evident by AAA games trying to push the boarders of the established standards. Games like Minecraft have proven recently that millions of people can enjoy a game with little structured content... even Skyrim for that matter has many people attempting to make teir own adventure. Traditional quests are fading out (thank god). I'm not saying that the perfect sanbox game will be released soon, but the genre is evolving... in a good way, in my opinion. Some of the upcoming games seem to be attampting to be pushing the bounds on what is "safe", and the look interesting.