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Will DF 2.0 have the same serious design flaw as DF 1.0?
Currently we are seeing a massive downswing in player activity on NA-1. My perception is that all the people who started Darkfall over the holidays are discovering, to thier sadness, that much of what AV has told them about this game is a lie.
You can't be effective in pvp as a 3 month old player. Nor as a 6 month casual player. Indeed even a 1 year casual player is in trouble. Why? 3 year old super-levelled toons, many ex-EU, who could and did do things that are now considered exploits to get 100 in skills all down the line. They stopped skilling up a long time ago, and started amassing gear and wealth. When they step out to pvp, it is in gear that once would have been considered the best siege gear on the server. Now it is just some old junk set, that is still far (far) beyond the means of normal players. Elenae Shar can 1 v 12 new players, without going under 90% health. It wasn't a fluke, he did it two weeks in a row. Guess what, 9 of those 12 players are no longer playing. They didn't want to waste a year getting to marginal combat viablitiy.
We lost a city this week. Why? The people who took it bought gold. We defeated them 4 days ago, so they just hired more mercs and went again. We could not defend again, we simply could not afford it. So we lost, because as SG, I would not reach for a credit card. They did, we lost.
So what is this dire design flaw the title of this tread alludes to?
Quite simply, that there is nearly no content in DF 1.0 that 5 hardened veterans cannot complete. That includes sea towers, whcih can be (and have been) won by crews of 5. Red Dragons were even dumbed down, and are now 3 or even 2 vets only needed to kill.
What of it?
Quite simply, the ideal clan size is 5. Veterans do not need more players to complete content, and having extras means that they have to take less reward for their effort. That means that clan cities, hamlets, and such often have 1 ~ 5 players (total) in them. That is the ideal for the veterans, and it is they, with thier 3 year toons and immense wealth, who decide the fate of the game.
What of new players? Well, quite simply, they get slaughtered. Why? Aside from the fun factor, it is simply so they never stay to compete with resources.
While that is all well and good, the basic problem is that this game's design means that you really only need perhaps 150 ~ 200 veterans to totally conquor a server. All the best spawns are taken, all the mines, and enough wandering around to obliterate newbies to make them quit. And quit they have. This game has had immense turnover, and even today attracts new players, who want the game to work.
But it won't work. Instant travel allows the tiny number of veterans to travel the world at a whim, fight in every siege, attend every sea tower, kill every dragon, should they chose to. And then they happily crow that if people don't like it, they should go play wow. Guess what, nearly every player this game ever had, has gone to play wow, or some other game.
So yes, AV please do two things:
Launch DF 2.0 before Archeage goes live to NA customers. If you don't, you are doomed.
Add much more content that requires FAR more than 5 veterans to complete. I should not be able to kill a selentene golem with a mana missle and r30, any more than two vets should be able to kill a red dragon that spawns 1 time per day. They should be ~group~ activities.
Overall, my feeling is that it is too late to save Df 1.0. It needs to be wiped, if Darkfall is to survive at all. But the dumbing down of the design to make content easier for half groups is stupid, and if carried into DF 2.0 will surely doom that iteration of the game too, as certainly as it is slowly killing DF 1.0 now.
Only in games like WoW should 5, 10, or 25 people always be able to kill Monster X. There should be things in Darkfall that will kick your ass if you get near them without an army. Sadly, now 5 uber-vets is an army 
Comments
I enjoyed DF when it launched, I even did macro myself back when AV had no problems with that, all of a sudden they changed stance on it though, and those who kept doing it slowly started to pull away from the rest.
When you launch a game, you should make it clear from the beginning, that you either support afk macroing, or that you don't, and stick with that decision.
This was their first mistake.
Then more and more exploits became apparent, acid pits, and bloodwalling, just a few among many, I even attended the acid pits myself, because I didn't want to get left behind.
GM's spawned at the acid pits and just stood there watching as everyone scattered and ran to another pit, as if they couldn't do anything about it, only a couple of people got kicked or temp banned while 100s of people ran in between eachother and the pits.
This was their second mistake.
Then the hack era came about, more and more people became aware that they could hack without any consequences, that's when we started seeing flying ships and people who made speedy gonzales look like a turtle.
No hack detection.
This was their third mistake.
If all that wasn't enough, they then decided to take everyone who was still playing and divide them into 2 servers, EU was hurt the most by this, and the game became a ghost town.
Fourth mistake.
At that point I gave up on the game, and I don't think I will ever return, it was fun the first 3-5 months, but then all this shit happened which just made the gap between honest players, and hardcore gamers, even bigger, I was among the hardcores myself, and might have contributed to the problem, but I did not want to be left behind, I wanted a fair chance to fight back, so yeah...
The game is nothing but a shell of what it could have been.
And even if they do wipe and start over at 2.0, I just think it's too late now, people moved on... I hope the best for the DF players still around, but I have little faith in AV.
I wanted this game to work soooo bad and was in the betas with a guild and had fun...at first. But as others have said, it got dumb and stupid quick with all of the exploits and flawed game mechanics. I REALLY hope DF2.0 will be what I originally hoped for this game to be when I started following it a long time ago.
Where do you live, on the Moon?
I mean for what you know about game it's worrisom that you don't follow the main news. About 4-5 months ago AV revealed why DF in the past ~year and a half hasn't received any notable update and why stuff doesn't get fixed anywhere close to a decent time.
So 4-5 months ago they told us they are working on DF2.0 which is practicaly a new game, as they said. From all the info they gave it is completely clear that DF1.0 got on a side track, in past year they probably left 1 guy working on most basic stuff. It makes perfect sense. Btw nowadays I doubt it's anyone left working on it. No delay fix on EU, no anniversary celebration, etc,..Makes it prety clear DF1.0 is history.
That's why I unsubed. I would be playing it still but paying monthly sub for more than a year of lies and the way AV handles their game - no thanks.
+1 this thread for truth
http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/char_tool/CT_imageGenerator.php?pseudo=Centurion Mikal&lang=EN&code=&code=TSwtLDUsLSw2LC0sMjksOSwyMiwyMywyNCwtLDEwMiwzNiw4MSw4NCw4OQ==
the problem is not that DF doesnt have harder content, the biggest problem is that most new players will NEVER catch up with vets. let's face it, if nubes could catch up then vets would have a challenge right there.
there absolutely needs to be a cap on stats and sklls so that new players actually have a chance to look forward to being on even terms with those that came before them. this is a pvp game, and pvp has to be fair or is not fun at all.
nobody will continue to play a game where simply because you started later you will always be handicapped. no matter how much you grind there will always be those that started a year before you and they will just keep getting stronger.
if they launch DF 2.0 without a skill/stats cap within a year and half you'll be back to exactly the same situation DF is in now. vets that have no challanges and nubes that have no chance, and a gap that just keeps getting wider.
Their worst mistake wasnt the mention of a wipe.
The real problem is the fact that the devs are not communicating or they simply dont get involve with 1.0 at all. The grind is a serious problem and it doesnt take a year to catch up a vet. After 2 years, you're not maxed yet.
The best thing they did so far was the x4 exp weekend. If we had that x4 exp 1 weekend per month, we would still have a huge amount of players to play with and the game wouldnt feel so empty.
Nowadays, you either have to join a zerg or an elite clan. If you're not viable enough, you wont even join a zerg clan.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
theres probably some truth in this thread but theres also alot of bullshit. its already been proved that you can make pvp competitive characters in a few months, far quicker than many mmos.
http://experimental3d.be/site/?page_id=75
the problem is people playing a long time are usually just better at the game, your real game experience matters more than your virtual game experience. people still just can't accept this is actually a very skill based game and continue to use character stats as an excuse, i've been there myself.
I would like to see this 1v12 battle. there are videos of fights like this, ie val roths videos, back when everyone was a noob and magic was incredibly more overpowered. but those 12 players now have to be brand spanking new to the game or VERY bad.
My blog:
They also said they would be adding DF 2.0 features into DF 1.0 as they became available. Still waiting ...
Nope, it was over too fast for anyone to even turn on FRAPs. I was in one of Val Roth's videos, the one in Sunthrone. I was the one reviving and healing people he knocked down, but could never gank. Oddly enough, he quit too.
Stop trying to defend broken game design, and turn your mind to the two obvious issues: how can AV not botch DF 2.0, and if they screw that up, where should people who like DF 1.0 go when it inevitably closes?
Ya'll just need to learn, that DF is a lost cause. I learnt that a year+ ago (and i played since launch on and off for total of 8-9 months).
Ive been watching DF forums here on mmorpg.com and i was itching to try it, since i discovered theyre going to reinvent it ive decided to wait for it to dont spoil my experience. Lack of skill cap is a very bad thing - really turns me off
well for topic lets hope not darkfall had so many things i consider flaws, for instance I diden start up in darkfall before it had been relased for about a year
and back then magic was just flawed, people could just shoot near you with rank 50's and jiggle you up in the air until you died for full damgede, and with the smaller hp pools back then you had no chance aginst far better characters. their finnaly nerfed some of it, and introduced better hp's but instead introduced 7 rays spam in a second killing new players instanly.
took em about 2 years to fix most off the magic yet it's still the best cost ratio fighting power, and the owerpowered pre surging is still there, with the insanly dumb random fizzel.
magic's just been handeled so wrong trought darkfalls life alinating many people who wantet to be meele'ers or archer's, its better know but meele and archer gear is far more exespensive then magic gear.
then theirs the whole macro thing, I don't see why it was ever allowed in the first place or why you could gain skills from players, I think the majority prefears to not leave a computer on at night to swim into walls or hit blood walls.
you diden have to do it to be competive but before meditation, it was a very good way to get a competeive character and even after meditation its stil a good way to lvl many magic skills.
back when i startet pretty much everyone macroed, and its not hard to consider why when the game has full loot, not to mention the boring way you had to lvl spellchanting or witchcraft before meditation and even after how you have to lvl some off the spells in the various schools.
then theirs the UI i don't really mind it as long as im useing AHK scripts, their not requiried but it makes your life that much easier if your doing magic. their should have made it more userfrindly in a game so hard to master and so many differnet skills. probly lost alot off subs who refused to use AHK
then theirs the pve, I think the mount era, was pretty bad where people would solo everything on mounts instead of grouping up in what a mmo is more about, since soloing was pretty much the only good way to earn enof gold and a good pvp gear bag would cost a 100.000 gold back then.
at least their fixed it, but their kept adding more gold sinks that would effect newer players, the meditation system is one, at least for me i felt like i always needed to have enof gold for it but with everything else it got pretty exespensive.
their also added blue tails so you needed 2 steedgrasses instead of 1 for normal mounts with a much higher risk off getting chased down and getting salugthered for newer players
not to mention the nerf off rank 40's damgede with the add of rare iron ore's in normal veins rank 50 meele weapons got pretty mandatory.
it's probly for the best that rare ores can be found in normal vein's but their should have consider that their wasent a good drop rate for rank 50 swords from mobs making it harder for newer players to get geared.
and on top of that their removed many good spawns over the years and decreased the gold drop rate from a number off mobs, pretty much making newer experinces in darkfall that more gold exespensive
and in the end know 2 exeperinced players can kill all mob spawns, and most spawns just needs 1 player, even with 2 players theirs a lot off wating for the mobs to spawn, and with 3 its even more boring or a lot off running around from place to place.
then theirs the horrible aligment system, at least for me I like that everything not a clannie is kill on sight, because some off the cool people i meet trough the years haven't always been in the same clan as me.
but as for darkfall when i startet out it just turned into kill anything non green execept for new players, who pretty much had to reroll a new character while exeperinced players hardly felt the aligment hit.
i remember 1 or 2 days after the chaos churches patch hit, same race allies, woulden't attack you right away but it lastet so shortly and then it turned into killing any non greenies again.
not to mention the old war abuse where people would abuse it to kill all new players in npc city's would have been nice if their just set a 20 members or more clannies before you could war em, but the fix came way to late, and it promoted more anti socilasing, to be safe, when darkfall is more about being in a group.
for the grind without it their woulden't be much to do if their only was pvp but the way buff others, self buffs, debuffs, telekenisis, launch, begone, confusion, stormblast are lvled is stupid
and the advangetes older players have and had over newer players in darkfall is to unbalanced for a full loot game.
but i don't see the decreasing of the grind as a soloution, but at least their fixing the jack of all trades.
instead of just decreasing it over and over ending up with veterans having nothing to do, their could look into mentor stuff like other games have lvling party members to your lvl.
or something complety crazy like learning 1 skills or spell lvl to another player with a year cooldown
for me thats just some off the top reasons why darkfall is doing so badly, theirs still others but i still love the game and hope 2.0 will come some day...
Actually in most MMOs I would say you can be very viable at PvP in less than a few months.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
This is why Mortal Online is booming right now. Since Mortal got it's shit together with bug patches and the territory control expansion people have been leaving DF for Mortal Online in droves.
Never trust a screenshot or a youtube video without a version stamp!
I never used to believe MO paid you in some way until recently, besides. . there are not "droves" of people in either game. They are both flawed but I do not think either one has done a great job at fixing bugs or "getting their shit together" (as can be seen by the recent MO topics here related to the GM thing - not at a decent pace anyway.
Please do not use a Darkfall related topic to promote your game.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Darkfall needs to be F2P or somekind of "Endless Trial" in order to survive when Archeage will come......