To be a trinity system, as it is meant in MMO's, means that the game's group combat has to consist of:
1. Some players soaking up all the damage from the MOBs by controlling who they have targeted (typically via aggro).
2. Some players healing the damage that other group members take at a rate higher than the damage is dealt.
3. All the other players doing damage to kill the MOBs.
The mere fact that GW2 doesn't have a traditional aggro system or taunting means it CAN'T have trinity combat. No matter how "tanky" your character is, there is no way to keep the MOB hitting you.
Also, there just aren't enough heal skills to outheal the damage of MOBs.
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
... and the mob will probably stun/knock down the Guardian anyway and go chew up the Elementalists - because aggro works a whole lot different in GW2 than holy trinity apologists think it does
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
... and the mob will probably stun/knock down the Guardian anyway and go chew up the Elementalists - because aggro works a whole lot different in GW2 than holy trinity apologists think it does
Exactly...
I really don't understand how these guys can read pages upon pages of reasons why the Trinity doesn't exist in GW2 and still cling to their belief that the trinity will be there in full force in GW2. It just...baffles the mind.
It's like they have never played a cooperative game without the holy trinity and they think it's literally impossible to not have the holy trinity.
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
No taunts + no ridiculous mitigation = no tank = no Trinity.
And there are no dedicated healers. People need to realize they added dodging for a reason. Hint: That reason was not "To be ignored in lieu of standing in front of a mob hoping to live through it"
Its just a hype builder imo, the trinity is still in guild wars 2, its just not as set in stone, as it is in most mmo's. There just is no pre-determined class thats say best at tanking, but I am pretty sure a certan class will tank better than the rest, or one will heal better than the rest. A mmo can't really work if you totally remove the trinity. The rules in gw2 are just alot more.. lax on it.
I find it quite baffling how people can't fathom Guild Wars 2 without the Holy Trinity and try to come up with new names for it, like "Soft Trinity". Just look at a game like Magicka. In that game everyone can Tank (Mitigate damage), everyone can Heal and everyone can deal Damage. Yet combat in that game doesn't follow the Holy Trinity and Guild Wars 2 will be the same. What's funny is that outside the MMORPG sphere, a lot of people aren't even aware of such nonsense as the Holy Trinity and still enjoy challenging co-op games.
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
... and the mob will probably stun/knock down the Guardian anyway and go chew up the Elementalists - because aggro works a whole lot different in GW2 than holy trinity apologists think it does
Exactly...
I really don't understand how these guys can read pages upon pages of reasons why the Trinity doesn't exist in GW2 and still cling to their belief that the trinity will be there in full force in GW2. It just...baffles the mind.
It's like they have never played a cooperative game without the holy trinity and they think it's literally impossible to not have the holy trinity.
It's simply that they have been so indoctrinated into the WoW paradigm 'tank and spank', holy trinity that they literally cannot wrap their heads around the idea. It's the same as those people who cannot accept an MMOG could exist that didn't have it's content driven by quests, and thus think the games tasks (and even the DE's) are just quests in disquise.
They'll wake up and realize they were wrong when the game comes out and they start wondering why they constantly get their asses handed to them. GW2 is not kind to those who just stand there and fight. Even at low lvl the mobs can be pretty tough and the combat pretty unforgiving if you don't try and adapt.
Funny thing is there are great examples of this from the press beta. Tuns of videos of press people who don't really know the game very well standing around and trying to beat on mobs and just getting obliterated. The ' ok Ima tank' guy from the dungeon run vid is a great example.
There is no healer, but there is healing, and that healing isn't targeted or spammed on a single person thus, no dedicated healer. Your personal heal is going to keep you alive but you can't rely on others to do that for you, though the turret heals you speak of are helpful.
There are no tanks though there are those that have to get in close to do damage and they can take it a little better than other classes can. Just because you melee with mobs doesn't make you a tank since there is no taunt mechanic, therby meaning there is no tank role. Sure some can suck the damage up better than others, especially through traits, but this doesn't mean that the tanking mechanic is there. Mobs will have some sort of aggro mechanic that players will need to figure out but it still wouldn't be the same.
And lastly there is no dedicated DPS because there are no tanks to hold threat while you stand there and try to do damage, and no healers there to keep you alive when you try to play GW2 like the traditional holy trinity game. Once again it falls on the individual to play well and keep himself alive otherwise you are a liability to the group.
Anet said that they were doing away with the holy trinity and everything I have seen indicates that they kept their word. Just because you see healing and people standing there going toe-to-toe with a mob doesn't mean that the trinity is in place and anet didnt do what they said. They never said that other classes won't be able to support parties by having some abilities that heal party members. Hope this helps.
It's simply that they have been so indoctrinated into the WoW paradigm 'tank and spank', holy trinity that they literally cannot wrap their heads around the idea. It's the same as those people who cannot accept an MMOG could exist that didn't have it's content driven by quests, and thus think the games tasks (and even the DE's) are just quests in disquise.
They'll wake up and realize they were wrong when the game comes out and they start wondering why they constantly get their asses handed to them. GW2 is not kind to those who just stand there and fight. Even at low lvl the mobs can be pretty tough and the combat pretty unforgiving if you don't try and adapt.
Funny thing is there are great examples of this from the press beta. Tuns of videos of press people who don't really know the game very well standing around and trying to beat on mobs and just getting obliterated. The ' ok Ima tank' guy from the dungeon run vid is a great example.
that video shed some light on things... I feel bad for melee and they need to make the NOCs smarter.. if they are supposed to be part of the event then they need to not die in a second to "red circles" like the "ok ima tank" guy. As for that guy he did sorta learn as he went, ill give him that.
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
DPS/Self Heal/"Tank" (main dps)
Dps+ Control oriented/Self Heal/"Tank" (control dps)
It's funny how people are so brainwashed with the auto combat trinity combat system they can't imagine anything else and everything called something different is trinity in disguise (soft trinity, lmao). Gw2 combat mechanics = dps causes (or an attack) hate you migrate mob damage among the party, you dodge or move to prevent damage. It's not new and way more immersive for everyone. I know this because in GW2 everyone can rez and heal, uses a downed mode and the mob AI is based on who's attacking at the moment in time. Just because you see a shield bearer does not mean they're always tanks. Vindictus is one game that uses this type of combat and it kills me how many times the Fiona class who holds a shield is mistaken for a tank . People, it's just a differnt type of combat! It's natural really your not suppose to get hit. I myself am totally over of the trinity system, leaving blocks and dodges up to math on armor, always getting hit, arrows and bullets bending around corners, it's old and tired. Most of all I can't wait for the various group combos in GW2, so dynamic!
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
did I say that the actualy holy trinity is still there? nope.
However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
You lost the argument with a keyword that you used TWICE..."designated". Those people DECIDED to take it upon themselves to heal (or help heal). They were NOT designated.
You are way too used to that "other" MMO. Might be why we have this moot topic.
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
Now that was a great example of how a combat encounter can go in GW2 and having seen the 1st dungeon encounter I can see how such a scenario is possible. Shame that what you've said is simply disregarded. And to Sanctum, why is it that you said there is no dedicated healer and then in your next comment you dedicate an entire role to healing?
Sanctum says:
"However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps"
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
did I say that the actualy holy trinity is still there? nope.
However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps
How does one "heavily focus" on 4 things (support + Healing + control + dps) at the same time?
I mean is like saying that if u try u can drive/cook/write a novel/answer the phone at the same time.
There are no roles, at least no the traditional sense of roles, you just go there, play and if you do it well u succed.
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
Now that was a great example of how a combat encounter can go in GW2 and having seen the 1st dungeon encounter I can see how such a scenario is possible. Shame that what you've said is simply disregarded. And to Sanctum, why is it that you said there is no dedicated healer and then in your next comment you dedicate an entire role to healing?
Sanctum says:
"However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps"
I've even heard from people in the catacombs videos that someone will probobly go healing heavy (turret etc) because it does help a lot
It's the truth there's no dedicated healing but there's builds heavily focused on healing everyone and supporting
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
did I say that the actualy holy trinity is still there? nope.
However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps
How does one "heavily focus" on 4 things (support + Healing + control + dps) at the same time?
I mean is like saying that if u try u can drive/cook/write a novel/answer the phone at the same time.
There are no roles, at least no the traditional sense of roles, you just go there, play and if you do it well u succed.
Switching weapons/attunments during the fights changes the role you are performing. Elementalist Scenario:
Ohh crap this boss is dealing out some mean damage to the group, "switch to water attunement to help support some heals while continuin to dps"
Ohh crap im taking crap tons of damage atm "switch to earth attunement to help mitigate damage and continue to dps"
Ohh crap tons of adds just spawn "switch to fire attunement for more AOE damage and control"
Ohh crap just one big enemey "switch to air attunement for focus fire dps with some control"
Comments
So in WoW when I top the damage meters as the tank in the group, does that mean that for some reason WoW doesn't have a holy trinity system?
^ Just as ridiculous as the arguments saying GW2 has one.
To be a trinity system, as it is meant in MMO's, means that the game's group combat has to consist of:
1. Some players soaking up all the damage from the MOBs by controlling who they have targeted (typically via aggro).
2. Some players healing the damage that other group members take at a rate higher than the damage is dealt.
3. All the other players doing damage to kill the MOBs.
The mere fact that GW2 doesn't have a traditional aggro system or taunting means it CAN'T have trinity combat. No matter how "tanky" your character is, there is no way to keep the MOB hitting you.
Also, there just aren't enough heal skills to outheal the damage of MOBs.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I know that the trinity is not in GW2 by definition, but i am curious how long before people find a way to simulate the trinity when they do group content. Some players are just better at playing a tank than they are at support, and a natural direction for them to put thier built together would be what they are comfortable playing as thier role. I would almost bet that even with the trinity not being intended in GW2, that the players will eventually find a way to do it anyway.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Well if they can find a way to tank without agro or heal without healing spells, then my hats off to them.
Now I could see 4 water elementals all spamming at a Guardian spanking a single mob figure, but even then the guardians self heal will do more than the others combined.
... and the mob will probably stun/knock down the Guardian anyway and go chew up the Elementalists - because aggro works a whole lot different in GW2 than holy trinity apologists think it does
Exactly...
I really don't understand how these guys can read pages upon pages of reasons why the Trinity doesn't exist in GW2 and still cling to their belief that the trinity will be there in full force in GW2. It just...baffles the mind.
It's like they have never played a cooperative game without the holy trinity and they think it's literally impossible to not have the holy trinity.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
God that would take forever.
trinity exists in a way
it's a soft trinity
you can focus on healing/support
you can focus on being very durable
you can focus on doing massive dmg
however it's not set in stone
and the healing/support based can dps/tank
the tank can dps/heal
the dps can tank/heal
Trinity = three.
No taunts + no ridiculous mitigation = no tank = no Trinity.
And there are no dedicated healers. People need to realize they added dodging for a reason. Hint: That reason was not "To be ignored in lieu of standing in front of a mob hoping to live through it"
totally wrong and narrow minded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-QWmGSpQi0&list=SL&feature=sh_e_se
I find it quite baffling how people can't fathom Guild Wars 2 without the Holy Trinity and try to come up with new names for it, like "Soft Trinity". Just look at a game like Magicka. In that game everyone can Tank (Mitigate damage), everyone can Heal and everyone can deal Damage. Yet combat in that game doesn't follow the Holy Trinity and Guild Wars 2 will be the same. What's funny is that outside the MMORPG sphere, a lot of people aren't even aware of such nonsense as the Holy Trinity and still enjoy challenging co-op games.
It's simply that they have been so indoctrinated into the WoW paradigm 'tank and spank', holy trinity that they literally cannot wrap their heads around the idea. It's the same as those people who cannot accept an MMOG could exist that didn't have it's content driven by quests, and thus think the games tasks (and even the DE's) are just quests in disquise.
They'll wake up and realize they were wrong when the game comes out and they start wondering why they constantly get their asses handed to them. GW2 is not kind to those who just stand there and fight. Even at low lvl the mobs can be pretty tough and the combat pretty unforgiving if you don't try and adapt.
Funny thing is there are great examples of this from the press beta. Tuns of videos of press people who don't really know the game very well standing around and trying to beat on mobs and just getting obliterated. The ' ok Ima tank' guy from the dungeon run vid is a great example.
There is no healer, but there is healing, and that healing isn't targeted or spammed on a single person thus, no dedicated healer. Your personal heal is going to keep you alive but you can't rely on others to do that for you, though the turret heals you speak of are helpful.
There are no tanks though there are those that have to get in close to do damage and they can take it a little better than other classes can. Just because you melee with mobs doesn't make you a tank since there is no taunt mechanic, therby meaning there is no tank role. Sure some can suck the damage up better than others, especially through traits, but this doesn't mean that the tanking mechanic is there. Mobs will have some sort of aggro mechanic that players will need to figure out but it still wouldn't be the same.
And lastly there is no dedicated DPS because there are no tanks to hold threat while you stand there and try to do damage, and no healers there to keep you alive when you try to play GW2 like the traditional holy trinity game. Once again it falls on the individual to play well and keep himself alive otherwise you are a liability to the group.
Anet said that they were doing away with the holy trinity and everything I have seen indicates that they kept their word. Just because you see healing and people standing there going toe-to-toe with a mob doesn't mean that the trinity is in place and anet didnt do what they said. They never said that other classes won't be able to support parties by having some abilities that heal party members. Hope this helps.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
that video shed some light on things... I feel bad for melee and they need to make the NOCs smarter.. if they are supposed to be part of the event then they need to not die in a second to "red circles" like the "ok ima tank" guy. As for that guy he did sorta learn as he went, ill give him that.
there's no dedicated healer, sure
but you can sure make a character that is much more healing oriented (mace/focus on guardian with support utlities and traits with healing breeze)
IMO healer role is still there in a way, the tank role is pretty much gone, and the dps role is merged with the tank role considering you have to be self sufficient and keep yourself alive while getting some regeneration and heals from someone who is healing/support based
DPS/Self Heal/"Tank" (main dps)
Dps+ Control oriented/Self Heal/"Tank" (control dps)
DPS+Support oriented/Self Heal/"Tank" (support dps)
Healing+Support oriented/DPS/"Tank" (healer/support dps)
those seem like the roles possible
"no trinity you say ol' chap, how can that be?"
It's funny how people are so brainwashed with the auto combat trinity combat system they can't imagine anything else and everything called something different is trinity in disguise (soft trinity, lmao). Gw2 combat mechanics = dps causes (or an attack) hate you migrate mob damage among the party, you dodge or move to prevent damage. It's not new and way more immersive for everyone. I know this because in GW2 everyone can rez and heal, uses a downed mode and the mob AI is based on who's attacking at the moment in time. Just because you see a shield bearer does not mean they're always tanks. Vindictus is one game that uses this type of combat and it kills me how many times the Fiona class who holds a shield is mistaken for a tank . People, it's just a differnt type of combat! It's natural really your not suppose to get hit. I myself am totally over of the trinity system, leaving blocks and dodges up to math on armor, always getting hit, arrows and bullets bending around corners, it's old and tired. Most of all I can't wait for the various group combos in GW2, so dynamic!
Think about it like this..
There are three "roles" in GW2. They are:
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
did I say that the actualy holy trinity is still there? nope.
However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps
You lost the argument with a keyword that you used TWICE..."designated". Those people DECIDED to take it upon themselves to heal (or help heal). They were NOT designated.
You are way too used to that "other" MMO. Might be why we have this moot topic.
Now that was a great example of how a combat encounter can go in GW2 and having seen the 1st dungeon encounter I can see how such a scenario is possible. Shame that what you've said is simply disregarded. And to Sanctum, why is it that you said there is no dedicated healer and then in your next comment you dedicate an entire role to healing?
Sanctum says:
"However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps"
How does one "heavily focus" on 4 things (support + Healing + control + dps) at the same time?
I mean is like saying that if u try u can drive/cook/write a novel/answer the phone at the same time.
There are no roles, at least no the traditional sense of roles, you just go there, play and if you do it well u succed.
I've even heard from people in the catacombs videos that someone will probobly go healing heavy (turret etc) because it does help a lot
It's the truth there's no dedicated healing but there's builds heavily focused on healing everyone and supporting
Switching weapons/attunments during the fights changes the role you are performing. Elementalist Scenario:
Ohh crap this boss is dealing out some mean damage to the group, "switch to water attunement to help support some heals while continuin to dps"
Ohh crap im taking crap tons of damage atm "switch to earth attunement to help mitigate damage and continue to dps"
Ohh crap tons of adds just spawn "switch to fire attunement for more AOE damage and control"
Ohh crap just one big enemey "switch to air attunement for focus fire dps with some control"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWe2PPOjwo
some trinity.