Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Lol............too difficult...........really?

ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,697Member Uncommon

Probably this is an insignificant detail for many but to me says it all about the state of currents MMOs and the industry.

When I canceled my subscription to SWTOR I noticed once again something I found frustrating also in most of the feedback form of  many recent MMORPG and that's the following option:

- Are you canceling your subscription because the game is too difficult?

I understand that this is a reasonable option to offer, I am sure many players find SWTOR quite difficult (although I don't know anyone personally), what I could not understand is the reason why I could not find the option "because the game is too easy"

SWTOR is not the only MMORPG that doesn't offer this option when you quit the game, and that's what I find disturbing.

 

Is it possible that MMORPGs developers cannot conceve the fact that lots of players might find their games a tiny bit too easy, and that this reason is enough for many players to quit the game?

How come they are not interested in finding out if there is anyone that actually is leaving the game because it's too easy, not the other way round?

Are MMO developers so out of touch with the player base that cannot grasp the fact that the easyness of their game could be their weakest point?

I am really worried that challenge is something game designers don't take into consideration when designing a game, but unfortunately I cannot but notice that  this filosophy is applied to all major AAA MMOs released in the last 5 years.

Isn't it time to change this filosophy..........or at least put an option in your feedback form so you have a clue about the real reasons why people are leaving your game (so next time you avoid producing expensive flops)?

 

«1

Comments

  • Actually SWTOR's mob difficulty is not static.  Things get harder and harder as you level.  Encounters that were pretty easy at 20 can leave you with 50% or even 25% health at level 40.

  • MaelkorMaelkor Friendswood, TXPosts: 465Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Actually SWTOR's mob difficulty is not static.  Things get harder and harder as you level.  Encounters that were pretty easy at 20 can leave you with 50% or even 25% health at level 40.

    I am curious if this is a serious comment or not?

    going from pretty easy to OMG I lost half my health...is a sign of difficulty? Especially in a game with instant out of combat regen the amount of health one losses in combat is rather meangingless unless its 100%. Even then it is of only minor significance most of the time costing you only a couple minutes of downtime.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,697Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Actually SWTOR's mob difficulty is not static.  Things get harder and harder as you level.  Encounters that were pretty easy at 20 can leave you with 50% or even 25% health at level 40.

    The "easy" definition is not just applied to the combat, but the overall feel of the game

    If you can get to 50 in 2 weeks and complete all Raids within a month, that's what I consider easy.

    It's not just the combat in itself which I don't judge easy but tedious................

     

    But that's not even the point.

    I am not discussing if SWTOR is easy or not (which can be subjective) but why the developers don't even consuider the possibility that the reason why players are leaving their game is not because it's too difficult but because it's too easy.

    I want to discuss why developers won't consider "challenge" a selling point, and actually disregard it as a trivial thing who no one is interested in

    Stay on topic please

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    That is an interesting point and good observation.

    maybe they assume it isn't worth asking beecause no matter how easy some deem mmos to be these days seems like they still get hammered to a fair degree by some that things are too difficult or take too long?

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • WicoaWicoa LondonPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon

    Yes the game is too difficult especially instances where bosses bug out and run around 1 shotting people. Not to mention force charging across a bridge = character stuck for a good while!

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    For me the issue isn't "easy or hard" but the fact that the combat in this game is incredibly repetitive.  When doing quests, every single fight, no matter what, you take the exact same approach.

     

    It is a bit different for heroics and flashpoints (the ones I've ran have actually been quite fun), but I guess I'd just like a bit of tactical variety here on the generic leveling.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,697Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    That is an interesting point and good observation.

    maybe they assume it isn't worth asking beecause no matter how easy some deem mmos to be these days seems like they still get hammered to a fair degree by some that things are too difficult or take too long?

    Aye but that's my point

    If their feedbacks finds that 50 players quit because they find the game too difficult and 100 because they find it too easy, wouldn't that be an interesting result to reflect on?

    Why they would not be interested in finding this out?

    My worry is that developers just assume that challenge is not a priority to players........................that's not a good attitude for a game designer.

  • SeneriusSenerius Klamath Falls, ORPosts: 73Member Uncommon

    Mabey you should go back and look again because it does give the option of saying it was too easy.

    We all can only be who we are Nothing more nothing less.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,697Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Senerius

    Mabey you should go back and look again because it does give the option of saying it was too easy.

    When I left it wasn't there, that's why I had to write a wall of text in the feedback box instead.

    If that's the case, good on them, they will have a real clue on what they did wrong.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by iceman00

    For me the issue isn't "easy or hard" but the fact that the combat in this game is incredibly repetitive.  When doing quests, every single fight, no matter what, you take the exact same approach.

     

    It is a bit different for heroics and flashpoints (the ones I've ran have actually been quite fun), but I guess I'd just like a bit of tactical variety here on the generic leveling.

    You mean like using envionmental objects, bosses changing tactics up, enemies kiting, different layers and what not?

    Also your correct as well, itt'd add more replay value as well.

    Because you could change up your approach so next playthrough with another character would help aswell.

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    Originally posted by RizelStar

    Originally posted by iceman00

    For me the issue isn't "easy or hard" but the fact that the combat in this game is incredibly repetitive.  When doing quests, every single fight, no matter what, you take the exact same approach.

     

    It is a bit different for heroics and flashpoints (the ones I've ran have actually been quite fun), but I guess I'd just like a bit of tactical variety here on the generic leveling.

    You mean like using envionmental objects, bosses changing tactics up, enemies kiting, different layers and what not?

     

    I'll start off with the usual disclosure:  I haven't hit 50.  My friends that have, they are enjoying the flashpoints and ops, at least to a certain extent.  (We won't discuss pvp)

    Through 30, I haven't seen anything different.

    I can give examples from previous MMO's I've played.  In POTBS, their PVE AI wasn't the best, but they mixed missions up.

    Sometimes you had escorts.  Sometimes blockade running.  Sometimes you were out to straight sink mofo's.  Other times, you had to mainly rely on boarding actions.  Sometimes, you had a lot of allied NPC's with you.  Some enemies were far stronger up close, some at range.  Some you could kite, some you couldn't.  And then sometimes you'd just do straight avcom.  Now the system had its flaws, but there was tons of variety in the type of quests they sent you on.  And even when you did the mission, different approaches were feasibly depending on the way you wanted to play it.

    I still think gamers need to see these kind of things leveling up.  As a Sith Sorc, it is the same thing every time solo.  Stay at range.  Use Khem to attack a target.  Shield Khem.  AOE attack.  Use my few debuffs.  Maybe heal Khem.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

     

    Give me some different types of quests, and yeah, some different AI tactics leveling up.  I appreciate the flashpoints.  Those did require doing things a bit differently (even more so when we could only get 3 on when the recomendation was 4!)  I want to see enemies spread out more once an engagement starts so it makes AOE attacks a bit more difficult.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by iceman00

    Originally posted by RizelStar


    Originally posted by iceman00

    For me the issue isn't "easy or hard" but the fact that the combat in this game is incredibly repetitive.  When doing quests, every single fight, no matter what, you take the exact same approach.

     

    It is a bit different for heroics and flashpoints (the ones I've ran have actually been quite fun), but I guess I'd just like a bit of tactical variety here on the generic leveling.

    You mean like using envionmental objects, bosses changing tactics up, enemies kiting, different layers and what not?

     

    I'll start off with the usual disclosure:  I haven't hit 50.  My friends that have, they are enjoying the flashpoints and ops, at least to a certain extent.  (We won't discuss pvp)

    Through 30, I haven't seen anything different.

    I can give examples from previous MMO's I've played.  In POTBS, their PVE AI wasn't the best, but they mixed missions up.

    Sometimes you had escorts.  Sometimes blockade running.  Sometimes you were out to straight sink mofo's.  Other times, you had to mainly rely on boarding actions.  Sometimes, you had a lot of allied NPC's with you.  Some enemies were far stronger up close, some at range.  Some you could kite, some you couldn't.  And then sometimes you'd just do straight avcom.  Now the system had its flaws, but there was tons of variety in the type of quests they sent you on.  And even when you did the mission, different approaches were feasibly depending on the way you wanted to play it.

    I still think gamers need to see these kind of things leveling up.  As a Sith Sorc, it is the same thing every time solo.  Stay at range.  Use Khem to attack a target.  Shield Khem.  AOE attack.  Use my few debuffs.  Maybe heal Khem.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

     

    Give me some different types of quests, and yeah, some different AI tactics leveling up.  I appreciate the flashpoints.  Those did require doing things a bit differently (even more so when we could only get 3 on when the recomendation was 4!)  I want to see enemies spread out more once an engagement starts so it makes AOE attacks a bit more difficult.

    Ahh ok well yea that as well.

    Too bad the main focus was on story which is not terrible but I'm sure they could of thought of something like what you mention if they wanted to make the gameplay go with the story as well.

    It wouldn't hurt.

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    The things you mention would still be nice no doubt.  I just can't comment on the later level pve, because I'm obviously not there yet.

    I just bore of the same quest.  No matter what you do (not much variety) it is always fight the exact same way everytime.  I'd say it is a limit of DPS/TANK/HEALS model, but WoW still manages to spice it up a little bit (though not enough imo)

     

    How about next time you raid a hideout, you can tap into their computer system.  Set certain things to overload, release a debuffing gas, get the map of the entire area (including where the foe is) use things to funnell the NPC's towards a choke point, etc.  This was one of the great things about KOTOR in the single player world.  It gave you different ways to do a quest/mission.

  • snoop101snoop101 Calgary, ABPosts: 398Member

    I got this funny feeling that they wont make th egame harder. 

     

    I think it is sad though that the game has been out for just over a month now and some people have 2-3 top level toons. I miss the days where it took months to get to top level.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Actually SWTOR's mob difficulty is not static.  Things get harder and harder as you level.  Encounters that were pretty easy at 20 can leave you with 50% or even 25% health at level 40.

    That's true unless you have a healer companion.  The game got trivial after my assasin got his healer.

  • bestman22bestman22 live oak, FLPosts: 90Member

    what I really wanted was a story along the lines of fight on a planet finish all the quests and bad guy escapes on a ship... chase them down in space disable then do a boarding action to kill/capture the guy you were after in the first place.... that is starwars, or mid way through the planet quests you get an emergency call that the planet is about to be bombarded or something that mixes space with ground, not just alienating the 2 and making entire story ground only and space be on rails.

     

    That my friends is star wars, not space, not ground but both, story happens in both, space shouldnt be a minigame.

     

    Honestly on difficulty though... game was easy mode, just annoying... hit aoe, or knock mobs into a group then aoe them down... so hard...

     

    IF the game had real space I would most likely still be playing as that was what kept me on SWG, space was fun.  As it stands now I quit 2 weeks into the first month... have not missed it playing world of tanks.

  • Deadeye31Deadeye31 Staten Island, NYPosts: 50Member
    Ah, the same old same old "too easy" thread. People who aren't even level capped (let alone in full rakata plus 10/10 nightmare on farm) trying to call a game "easy". Nice to see people are ignorant as ever.

    Come back when you have nightmare Soa on farm and we'll see what you have to say. Oh and plz spare us the "My friend's guild has it on farm" argument. If they have it on farm, they can come and complain, not you.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    OP: I think it comes for the fact that WoW made MMORPGs easier and ever since then they have become more and more easy because somehow the formula of making it easy is a winning recipe (because it worked for WoW).

    So SW:TOR is looking at WoWs recipe for success and they are probably looking at the aspects which made WoW a success, like make it easier and cater to more than traditional MMORPG players so that is probably why they are asking if the game is too hard because they need to know if they added enough of the "easy" recipe.

    Pure conjecture on my part but this is how I see it based on how MMORPGs, and ThemeParks specifically, have "evolved" over the years.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by ste2000

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    That is an interesting point and good observation.

    maybe they assume it isn't worth asking beecause no matter how easy some deem mmos to be these days seems like they still get hammered to a fair degree by some that things are too difficult or take too long?

    Aye but that's my point

    If their feedbacks finds that 50 players quit because they find the game too difficult and 100 because they find it too easy, wouldn't that be an interesting result to reflect on?

    Why they would not be interested in finding this out?

    My worry is that developers just assume that challenge is not a priority to players........................that's not a good attitude for a game designer.

    The problem is more the publishers/investors than the designers. They're the ones who call the shots, and most of them aren't gamers, nor do they care about gamers. We're just walking dollar signs to those types, and the developer is typically stuck in the middle.

    Gaming really just needs to go indy again. Man I would love to work for an indy game company. I think that independent freedom is why bigger indy devs like Insomniac can consistently put out good software.

  • greyed-outgreyed-out buttercupsville, OKPosts: 99Member

    I think its because companies like EA/Bioware hate their consumer.  They take an aggressive stance towards them.  They do this because in the end its more profitable to tell the consumer what they want and enjoy rather than truly create a product that pleases most of their customers.  Most big corporate businesses operate this way.  This hostility operates on the lowest common denominator, and the fact that more dollars are gained from consumers through force of persuasion, marketing, etc than good customer relations and product development.  They don't ask the question, because their mind is already made up and they're gonna sell you what they think you should want whether you want it or not.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    Originally posted by Deadeye31

    Ah, the same old same old "too easy" thread. People who aren't even level capped (let alone in full rakata plus 10/10 nightmare on farm) trying to call a game "easy". Nice to see people are ignorant as ever.



    Come back when you have nightmare Soa on farm and we'll see what you have to say. Oh and plz spare us the "My friend's guild has it on farm" argument. If they have it on farm, they can come and complain, not you.


     

    Having one or two "hard" things does not make a game "hard."  A game can be too little of a challenge to where people don't feel like sticking around for those thrilling moments.

     

    Every game, unless it is an insult to humanity, has moments in it when they are exhilirating.  Even Dragon Age 2 had a few "damn that was cool" moments.  The rest of the game was a steaming pile of crap though.  Those few moments didn't redeem it.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,544Member Uncommon

    The hard modes are a pain in the behind to PUG, and I wouldn't know if they were much better in a guild group.  Actually, a fully geared guild group couldn't complete the HM they tried the other day while I successfully piggybacked 2 PUGs as a fresh 50.  Even so, I never completed a HM that took less than an hour and a half.  Most of them took around two hours to complete, and I simply don't have the time for that.  

    I can see why some people would find them too difficult.  They can stay like they are, but BioWare should increase the number of commendations you get, so you don't have to farm them over and over quite as many times to make up for the fact that they take so long to finish.

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ste2000

    Probably this is an insignificant detail for many but to me says it all about the state of currents MMOs and the industry.

    When I canceled my subscription to SWTOR I noticed once again something I found frustrating also in most of the feedback form of  many recent MMORPG and that's the following option:

    - Are you canceling your subscription because the game is too difficult?

    I understand that this is a reasonable option to offer, I am sure many players find SWTOR quite difficult (although I don't know anyone personally), what I could not understand is the reason why I could not find the option "because the game is too easy"

    SWTOR is not the only MMORPG that doesn't offer this option when you quit the game, and that's what I find disturbing.

     

    Is it possible that MMORPGs developers cannot conceve the fact that lots of players might find their games a tiny bit too easy, and that this reason is enough for many players to quit the game?

    How come they are not interested in finding out if there is anyone that actually is leaving the game because it's too easy, not the other way round?

    Are MMO developers so out of touch with the player base that cannot grasp the fact that the easyness of their game could be their weakest point?

    I am really worried that challenge is something game designers don't take into consideration when designing a game, but unfortunately I cannot but notice that  this filosophy is applied to all major AAA MMOs released in the last 5 years.

    Isn't it time to change this filosophy..........or at least put an option in your feedback form so you have a clue about the real reasons why people are leaving your game (so next time you avoid producing expensive flops)?

     

    I actually know folks who think this game is hard.

     

    Ever think you're just to PRO!

    image

  • grafhgrafh chicago, ILPosts: 310Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Deadeye31

    Ah, the same old same old "too easy" thread. People who aren't even level capped (let alone in full rakata plus 10/10 nightmare on farm) trying to call a game "easy". Nice to see people are ignorant as ever.



    Come back when you have nightmare Soa on farm and we'll see what you have to say. Oh and plz spare us the "My friend's guild has it on farm" argument. If they have it on farm, they can come and complain, not you.


     

    are you serious?

    nightmare soa on farm hardly qualifies as a challenge when compared to other mmo's endgame raid content. what does having full rakata gear have anything to do with the difficulty of the game? the problem with your argument seems that your mixing other elements into actual difficulty.

    difficult games would be ones like ffxi ( first year of release), WoW (first year of release), EQ, dark/demon souls, ninja gaiden 2, etc. there are games out there where they are difficult no matter what gear you have. If you cant differentiate between a difficult game, and a gear dependent game, then im a little worried.

     

    i can agree that there should be an option when u cancel your sub that it say the game is to easy.. they wont add it because they cant make it more difficult, or the super casual crowd will complain.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    Originally posted by grafh

    Originally posted by Deadeye31

    Ah, the same old same old "too easy" thread. People who aren't even level capped (let alone in full rakata plus 10/10 nightmare on farm) trying to call a game "easy". Nice to see people are ignorant as ever.



    Come back when you have nightmare Soa on farm and we'll see what you have to say. Oh and plz spare us the "My friend's guild has it on farm" argument. If they have it on farm, they can come and complain, not you.


     

    are you serious?

    nightmare soa on farm hardly qualifies as a challenge when compared to other mmo's endgame raid content. what does having full rakata gear have anything to do with the difficulty of the game? the problem with your argument seems that your mixing other elements into actual difficulty.

    difficult games would be ones like ffxi ( first year of release), WoW (first year of release), EQ, dark/demon souls, ninja gaiden 2, etc. there are games out there where they are difficult no matter what gear you have. If you cant differentiate between a difficult game, and a gear dependent game, then im a little worried.

     

    i can agree that there should be an option when u cancel your sub that it say the game is to easy.. they wont add it because they cant make it more difficult, or the super casual crowd will complain.

    It's more that he classifies something as difficult based on how long you have to grind.  For others, difficult means the tactics involved, the skill stuff, etc.

«1
Sign In or Register to comment.