I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.
I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?
MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.
Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.
I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.
/shrug
You know what i think the difference is between people that call themselves "old timers" and what they call the new crowd of casual gamers?
Old timers were looking for friends.
Casual people are looking for fun.
2 total different mind sets. Yes, they can combine a bit. But just think of that.
One set is more interested in making long term commitments by looking for friends that game.
And the other is looking for a fun game to play. And will drop the game as soon as the fun stops, with no, or small amount of thought given, to the people that they may have met while playing.
Both gamers, but the mind sets will always set them apart from each other. And the casual is where the investors and dev's are spending the cash.
And i really do not see it ever going back to the old way. And yes on topic:) because the 2 groups see what defines a MMO as completely different as their reasons to game. And neither can really see that they are both right, and wrong.
As an EQ vet...sure, I played to make friends. In making those friends, I found fun...mainly through adventuring WITH those new friends. Sure...I soloed as well in EQ. Although tougher to do (Because mobs chased you all the way to zone lines, etc), it was still possible...and fun. But most of the fun then was through interaction with other players, because that's what MMO's were about. I mean, they were initially intended for tabletop D&D players, etc.
You are right about today's players...they are looking for fun, but sadly that's almost all. Nearly all MMO's now that I have tried have way less player interaction in them. People seem more hell bent on outdoing each other via leveling, gear, or other accomplishments than getting to know other players and make a community. Which is the...excuse me...WAS the main purpose of MMORPG's at one time. Race from one quest hub to the next. If they have to group, they do it just long enough to obtain what they needed and shove off, unconcerned with if others in the group got the required items too...even sometimes abandoning them in dangerous areas.
Don't care what the fan boys say, or the trolls...today's "supposed" MMO's are nothing more than instant gratification multi-player hubs. Basically, built to nearly instantly reward the player. There was a time when people gathered a sense of accomplishment just gaining half a level, or completeing that one long quest, or finally obtaining that one piece of armor or weapon. Now, players seem to feel unfullfilled and shunned if they don't reach cap in 2 weeks, have the high end raid gear in that same amount of time, and aren't all around God-like before the first month's box sale's numbers hit the news (Which sadly...seems all developer's focus on since they know most of the ADD player base won't stick around beyond a month or two anyways).
Sure...why have monthly subs anymore when you can't keep players attention long enough to collect but a couple of payments? Just surge retail box numbers and give special collector's editions to further swell those numbers...since that is where the majority of their money comes from anyways.
It's a vicious circle because these dev's aren't stupid. WHY innovate? Why go that extra mile to do something new and waste resources and money doing so when the "status quo" seems to be keeping the players on a short leash just fine? Sure, they complain, but they are still paying and playing while they do it. It's silly to me.
MMOPRG's are meant for player interaction to go along with the fun. Console games are meant for pure fun (Although FPS games have both, but not on same planes as MMO's). This is why they are seperate genre's.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Aren't you so precious? Look at you, all smug in your ability to play games all day long.
I do have time to play MMOs. Maybe not as much as you, but I have time. And I make the most of that time, whether it is in front of my computer, PS3, DS, PSP, ect, ect, blah blah blah. Enjoying every second of it. Because, you know, enjoyment is what games are for.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
That can be done in the game i want to. My beliefe is that ifs harder to do then you feel more acomplished. This comes with time and effort. Theres no effort in getting to max lvl in 1 week.
Theres no effort in getting gear drops every 4 mobs and those mobs are snakes. Theres no effort in insta queing up for 20 min zerg-fest dungeons and arena type PVP. People dont feel they should put any effort into these games anymore.
Everyone needs a reward for just logging in these days. forget about stratagy, its all about the uber gear one can get. and now you can get that gear in 10 different way... all except for crafting because people dont feel the need the put effort into it because it takes away from there gameplay.
I could go on and on and on and on..... but what i highlighted in red can be done in a sandbox-ish MMOs as well. So dont give me that current model of Theampark MMOs is right up your ally. There the McDonalds of the MMO world. If your hungry youll eat it. I do know one thing.... I cant remember the last time i said " Oh my god that 10 piece with fires was so dilicious! i think ill get seconds" Only someone thats high would utter such nonsence.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Casual gamer don't ruin anything. Developers produce exactly as many and as good hardcore virtual worlds as if they would if casual players packed their bags and moved elsewhere. It's all about money - if casual players leave, they'll take most of the money out of the genre away. You wouldn't start seeing AAA hardcore games churned out into market, because developers and investors focused on casual audience would leave with them, instead of refocusing on niche that's already covered by some games.
play single player rpgs. everything you want is there and you dont have to wait 4 hours to pick up a quest item cause of other players. if you like the chatty side, open a forum and stick it to 'always on top'. the mmos your describing are dead. sprpg are much better. hell, with the state of mmorpgs nowadays i enjoy sonic:generations more. time to move on bud, your done with this genre - i did about a year ago... first thing i remembered is i used to play games for fun before mmos... as i do now.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
So you are saying your fine with the new crowd morphing MMORPG's with console gaming, effectively rendering them from their traditional purpose...because it is what works for you with your schedule and allows you to feel you accomplished something with that limited time? And this makes you different from them how?
I'm 35, I have a full time job, a daughter, bills, exercise schedules, etc, etc. I'm always busy...BUT...I still find time to do the little things in MMO's (When I play them. Haven't in almost a year because..well, what can I say...I think they have all been garbage the last couple of years) and STILL feel I had accomplished something.
Sure..with the old way I know it may take a long time to get something I want (Took me a full year in EQ to hit cap And another 4 months to get my epic weapons). But that anticipation makes finally getting it all that much sweeter. Now...I can get to cap without even playing nonstop like I use to in my 20's (average 2 to 4 hours a day, if even when I do play them), get most of the best gear, a mount, etc in a month...sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. But the one thing missing is that sense of accomplishment...because you can do it all so fast and with such little effort. It's sad when a single player RPG can have much more of an MMORPG feeling (Skyrim) than actual supposed MMORPG's.
Then: A high level was much rarer, getting epics was even rarer.
Now: The above mention things are a dime a dozen and nothing special.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Aren't you so precious? Look at you, all smug in your ability to play games all day long.
I do have time to play MMOs. Maybe not as much as you, but I have time. And I make the most of that time, whether it is in front of my computer, PS3, DS, PSP, ect, ect, blah blah blah. Enjoying every second of it. Because, you know, enjoyment is what games are for.
What happenes when they stop making games that are fun for you to make games you hate? Sure i have a ton of other shit im doin but wouldent chap your ass a bit? To go from something to nothing? Any hit of the type of game your looking for if it does come out isent supported and is filled with bugs nobody cares about fixing?
Like i had said in other posts, the weathers always nice when the sun is shinning down on YOU. Got to understand that its raining somewehre else. Only propblem is there no end in sight for the rain to stop.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
Your game? You're not entitled to anything more than what people with similar taste are willing to pay for. Don't expect hardcore AAA MMO because hardcore doesn't pay for AAA, at least nowadays. If you want "your game" quit whining and either make it, or convince devs it's worth making, by finding enough like-minded people willing declare support.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Casual gamer don't ruin anything. Developers produce exactly as many and as good hardcore virtual worlds as if they would if casual players packed their bags and moved elsewhere. It's all about money - if casual players leave, they'll take most of the money out of the genre away. You wouldn't start seeing AAA hardcore games churned out into market, because developers and investors focused on casual audience would leave with them, instead of refocusing on niche that's already covered by some games.
You see where you went wrong there? By saying casuals influance how games are made DOES infact lay blame to them as to why the genre is in the state its in now. Casuals money = There games getting made. So yes casuals ARE to blame.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
So you are saying your fine with the new crowd morphing MMORPG's with console gaming, effectively rendering them from their traditional purpose...because it is what works for you with your schedule and allows you to feel you accomplished something with that limited time? And this makes you different from them how?
I'm 35, I have a full time job, a daughter, bills, exercise schedules, etc, etc. I'm always busy...BUT...I still find time to do the little things in MMO's (When I play them. Haven't in almost a year because..well, what can I say...I think they have all been garbage the last couple of years) and STILL feel I had accomplished something.
Sure..with the old way I know it may take a long time to get something I want (Took me a full year in EQ to hit cap And another 4 months to get my epic weapons). But that anticipation makes finally getting it all that much sweeter. Now...I can get to cap without even playing nonstop like I use to in my 20's (average 2 to 4 hours a day, if even when I do play them), get most of the best gear, a mount, etc in a month...sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. But the one thing missing is that sense of accomplishment...because you can do it all so fast and with such little effort. It's sad when a single player RPG can have much more of an MMORPG feeling (Skyrim) than actual supposed MMORPG's.
Then: A high level was much rarer, getting epics was even rarer.
Now: The above mention things are a dime a dozen and nothing special.
Have to agree with goat on this.
I am pretty much in the same boat, 40 years old, married, two teenagers, full time job, college, dog (see avatar) and exercise schedule AND I still find time to play MMO's for the reasons MMO's exsist - sense of accomplishments.
Far too many "me" generation players killing the genre. I mean look at WoW (great game, not a hit piece here), remember the endless wipes on instances such as Onyxia's Lair and Molten Core as level 60? Remember having to need keys and attunements to other instances such Karazhan?
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
Your game? You're not entitled to anything more than what people with similar taste are willing to pay for. Don't expect hardcore AAA MMO because hardcore doesn't pay for AAA, at least nowadays. If you want "your game" quit whining and either make it, or convince devs it's worth making, by finding enough like-minded people willing declare support.
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
I'm wondering if there can be a fine line, almost a middle ground, that could satisfy all but the extreme hardcore and the super flighty casual people. I wonder if this is possible? EQ1 in it's current form is as close to this as I can think. Quick travel, but slower more strategy involved combat. Limited death penalties, but there are still death penalties. Maybe this would be considered hardcore...not sure though.
I think games should be made for both, however, I think most would actually want something inbetween (sandpark most likely). Essentially a game where things aren't instant and it gives you a sense of accomplishment, but has eliminated extreme downtime and extreme death penalties. Maybe leveling takes three months rather than 2 weeks lol.
I think most uber casual people have not played a more hardcore game for any amount of time and they don't know that sense of accomplishment (best example would be after finishing an epic quest in EQ1).
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
I think the world would be a better place if they had made WoW a more Diablo type game. Like started with Diablo and added the WoW style graphics and push from there to more uninstanced areas and adding some features from EQ. Starting with EQ and constantly pushing towards Diablo is starting with the wrong end and ruining the MMO genre when there was a much faster and more intuitive way to do it without crapping on a genre that was never intended for casuals.
Ok, I am the "casual" you speak of and I don't want a CORPG. I want an MMO. Just because I want some conveniences also, doesn't mean I don't want to interact with other players. We've talked about this before. Diablo and other CORPG's only have your group in the area, no others. I don't want that. I like TOR where I run across others all the time.
Just because we don't want your style of MMO, doesn't mean we don't want an MMO.
And it's completely your opinion that the MMO genre was not intended for casuals. Casuals spend more time and money on MMO's as they don't burn through the content, bitch and un-sub as fast as hardcore gamers. I don't need to prove I'm correct about that... just look where the money is going. Look where the genre is going. I'm as happy as can be with what is coming out and someone else is not. That proves I'm correct....lol
If you read the post I talked about that. You don't want an MMO. You want a corpg with SOME mmo FEATURES. That is not the same as wanting an MMO. Running across other people is a feature of MMOs but the way that casuals interact in MMOs was not how it was intended to be.
You literally made an argument ad populum. Intentionally. "I'm right because the majority wants this." The majority also doesn't want an MMO.
If you played early, read : real, MMOs you would know that the genre was not intended for casuals.
99% of the people on this forum are so fucking ignorant about social dynamics. They have no idea what colonization of niche genres means.
SUM 41 and New Found Glory are not punk bands. I love their music but its not punk. Its mainstream pop colonizing punk because they liked 20% of the features of punk. Punk was developed as working class every man music with low production values and musicians who can't play that well and singers who couldn't hack it in mainstream music of the time. Pop punk is a mainly middle class and upper class genre with high production values and big concerts and tours and CDs from major publishing countries.
These pop punk bands are not punk bands. Pop punk isn't an ideal name but at least people do not constantly refer to these bands as "punk" with no qualifiers. Except little kids who don't actually know anything but what they hear on the radio. All the marketing companies telling them they are cool and original and have taste, but they are really listening to the same old pop with a slightly darker tone so that the industry can position their bands as edgey and different.
Hell, even Milo Auckerman is embarrassed by all this hot topic industry pushed bullshit and his band The Descendants are practically the godfathers of pop punk who originated the girl and food focus of the genre.
Its fine though. The word MMORPG has been so diluted that its unlikely for console kiddies and casuals ever to accept the distinction between having MMO features and being an MMO. Every creative industry has this problem so its pretty clear its not going away. The world views of social colonizers are never going to be inline with the minorities they consume.
No, no .... just no. This is so easy to see and I can't believe I didn't notice it before.
It's funny you always bring up music, cause that's the clear give away. You just hate the mainstream. You liked the old MMO's cause they were bascially like underground music. Only some people really knew what they were. Only select people played them. Then, a game like WoW comes out and brings all these people to the party, you didn't want to know about it. It's like a punk band who sells out. I bet you hate Real Big Fish also?
Not talking about you, but my 22 y/o brother in law is the same way. Hates almost everything. Anything on the radio is crap, new metal is crap, he only listens to these Nordic Metal bands that a handfull of people have heard of. He hates "casual gamers" or anything mainstream for that matter... he's a hipster. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hipster
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does. You have every right to not play the game, but refusing to accept the fact that these games are MMO's, just because they're not the underground non-mainstream MMO's you want is ridiculous. You say we don't want MMO's... that's crazy. How do you know what I want? I want an MMO, perhaps just not an MMO by your definition, which is obviously far off from the industries deffinition.
oh... and by the way... a CORPG with MMO elements is an MMORPG...lol
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
Casual gamer don't ruin anything. Developers produce exactly as many and as good hardcore virtual worlds as if they would if casual players packed their bags and moved elsewhere. It's all about money - if casual players leave, they'll take most of the money out of the genre away. You wouldn't start seeing AAA hardcore games churned out into market, because developers and investors focused on casual audience would leave with them, instead of refocusing on niche that's already covered by some games.
You see where you went wrong there? By saying casuals influance how games are made DOES infact lay blame to them as to why the genre is in the state its in now. Casuals money = There games getting made. So yes casuals ARE to blame.
Blame for what? They didn't steal anything from you. You receive exactly as many hardcore games as if there wasn't any casual gamers at all. You sound like envious person who complains about neighbours building much nicer houses than his, for their own money. Don't claim it ruins the neighbourhood, because it doesn't affect you in the first place.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
Your game? You're not entitled to anything more than what people with similar taste are willing to pay for. Don't expect hardcore AAA MMO because hardcore doesn't pay for AAA, at least nowadays. If you want "your game" quit whining and either make it, or convince devs it's worth making, by finding enough like-minded people willing declare support.
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
Am I happy that most games now a days are completely catering to my playstyle? Umm. Yeah? Wouldn't you be if it were the other way around? I'm not happy because you're not getting what you want, I'm happy that I am. I really do wish some dev's would take a chance and make a game for you guys, unfortunitely, I can't make this happen. I don't want to see anyone hurt for my happiness.
I am pretty much in the same boat, 40 years old, married, two teenagers, full time job, college, dog (see avatar) and exercise schedule AND I still find time to play MMO's for the reasons MMO's exsist - sense of accomplishments.
Far too many "me" generation players killing the genre. I mean look at WoW (great game, not a hit piece here), remember the endless wipes on instances such as Onyxia's Lair and Molten Core as level 60? Remember having to need keys and attunements to other instances such Karazhan?
Gone are those days. could you imagine telling players today that they need to do an epic size quest to get a key to enter an instance? The outrage! " I PAY 15 A MOUTH! I SHOULDENT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO GO IN HERE! CHANGE IT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!"
I remember needed to do all that stuff. It was a great part of those games. Helping others along with there querstlines to get there keys. Hell i remember a quest chain in VG that gave you a password you had to speek to gain entrance into this dungeon. had to even do a /say ( word ) to get it to work.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
Your game? You're not entitled to anything more than what people with similar taste are willing to pay for. Don't expect hardcore AAA MMO because hardcore doesn't pay for AAA, at least nowadays. If you want "your game" quit whining and either make it, or convince devs it's worth making, by finding enough like-minded people willing declare support.
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
What did you expect? It's not charity - you can't expect that other players will suddenly donate money for games you like (but they hate), just because you're in minority. You have no right to blame anyone, really.
Great thread! Sadly, but I agree as well! It's not everyone, but many ppl who play MMO's play them for their own reasons,, most just want to pvp, some just want to play a structured rpg, and some just want to play to troll the chat channel and cause trouble... Most don't play just for the simple fact to enjoy everything the game has to offer...
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does.
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
What did you expect? It's not charity - you can't expect that other players will suddenly donate money for games you like (but they hate), just because you're in minority. You have no right to blame anyone, really.
>.> i do have the right to blame someone. If someone is the cause of something then there to blame. theres no gray area here. its black and white. casuals caused this pandemic in the MMO nation so ergo there to blame.
Comments
Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
As an EQ vet...sure, I played to make friends. In making those friends, I found fun...mainly through adventuring WITH those new friends. Sure...I soloed as well in EQ. Although tougher to do (Because mobs chased you all the way to zone lines, etc), it was still possible...and fun. But most of the fun then was through interaction with other players, because that's what MMO's were about. I mean, they were initially intended for tabletop D&D players, etc.
You are right about today's players...they are looking for fun, but sadly that's almost all. Nearly all MMO's now that I have tried have way less player interaction in them. People seem more hell bent on outdoing each other via leveling, gear, or other accomplishments than getting to know other players and make a community. Which is the...excuse me...WAS the main purpose of MMORPG's at one time. Race from one quest hub to the next. If they have to group, they do it just long enough to obtain what they needed and shove off, unconcerned with if others in the group got the required items too...even sometimes abandoning them in dangerous areas.
Don't care what the fan boys say, or the trolls...today's "supposed" MMO's are nothing more than instant gratification multi-player hubs. Basically, built to nearly instantly reward the player. There was a time when people gathered a sense of accomplishment just gaining half a level, or completeing that one long quest, or finally obtaining that one piece of armor or weapon. Now, players seem to feel unfullfilled and shunned if they don't reach cap in 2 weeks, have the high end raid gear in that same amount of time, and aren't all around God-like before the first month's box sale's numbers hit the news (Which sadly...seems all developer's focus on since they know most of the ADD player base won't stick around beyond a month or two anyways).
Sure...why have monthly subs anymore when you can't keep players attention long enough to collect but a couple of payments? Just surge retail box numbers and give special collector's editions to further swell those numbers...since that is where the majority of their money comes from anyways.
It's a vicious circle because these dev's aren't stupid. WHY innovate? Why go that extra mile to do something new and waste resources and money doing so when the "status quo" seems to be keeping the players on a short leash just fine? Sure, they complain, but they are still paying and playing while they do it. It's silly to me.
MMOPRG's are meant for player interaction to go along with the fun. Console games are meant for pure fun (Although FPS games have both, but not on same planes as MMO's). This is why they are seperate genre's.
Aren't you so precious? Look at you, all smug in your ability to play games all day long.
I do have time to play MMOs. Maybe not as much as you, but I have time. And I make the most of that time, whether it is in front of my computer, PS3, DS, PSP, ect, ect, blah blah blah. Enjoying every second of it. Because, you know, enjoyment is what games are for.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
That can be done in the game i want to. My beliefe is that ifs harder to do then you feel more acomplished. This comes with time and effort. Theres no effort in getting to max lvl in 1 week.
Theres no effort in getting gear drops every 4 mobs and those mobs are snakes. Theres no effort in insta queing up for 20 min zerg-fest dungeons and arena type PVP. People dont feel they should put any effort into these games anymore.
Everyone needs a reward for just logging in these days. forget about stratagy, its all about the uber gear one can get. and now you can get that gear in 10 different way... all except for crafting because people dont feel the need the put effort into it because it takes away from there gameplay.
I could go on and on and on and on..... but what i highlighted in red can be done in a sandbox-ish MMOs as well. So dont give me that current model of Theampark MMOs is right up your ally. There the McDonalds of the MMO world. If your hungry youll eat it. I do know one thing.... I cant remember the last time i said " Oh my god that 10 piece with fires was so dilicious! i think ill get seconds" Only someone thats high would utter such nonsence.
Casual gamer don't ruin anything. Developers produce exactly as many and as good hardcore virtual worlds as if they would if casual players packed their bags and moved elsewhere. It's all about money - if casual players leave, they'll take most of the money out of the genre away. You wouldn't start seeing AAA hardcore games churned out into market, because developers and investors focused on casual audience would leave with them, instead of refocusing on niche that's already covered by some games.
So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.
You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.
^ THIS
So you are saying your fine with the new crowd morphing MMORPG's with console gaming, effectively rendering them from their traditional purpose...because it is what works for you with your schedule and allows you to feel you accomplished something with that limited time? And this makes you different from them how?
I'm 35, I have a full time job, a daughter, bills, exercise schedules, etc, etc. I'm always busy...BUT...I still find time to do the little things in MMO's (When I play them. Haven't in almost a year because..well, what can I say...I think they have all been garbage the last couple of years) and STILL feel I had accomplished something.
Sure..with the old way I know it may take a long time to get something I want (Took me a full year in EQ to hit cap And another 4 months to get my epic weapons). But that anticipation makes finally getting it all that much sweeter. Now...I can get to cap without even playing nonstop like I use to in my 20's (average 2 to 4 hours a day, if even when I do play them), get most of the best gear, a mount, etc in a month...sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. But the one thing missing is that sense of accomplishment...because you can do it all so fast and with such little effort. It's sad when a single player RPG can have much more of an MMORPG feeling (Skyrim) than actual supposed MMORPG's.
Then: A high level was much rarer, getting epics was even rarer.
Now: The above mention things are a dime a dozen and nothing special.
What happenes when they stop making games that are fun for you to make games you hate? Sure i have a ton of other shit im doin but wouldent chap your ass a bit? To go from something to nothing? Any hit of the type of game your looking for if it does come out isent supported and is filled with bugs nobody cares about fixing?
Like i had said in other posts, the weathers always nice when the sun is shinning down on YOU. Got to understand that its raining somewehre else. Only propblem is there no end in sight for the rain to stop.
Your game? You're not entitled to anything more than what people with similar taste are willing to pay for. Don't expect hardcore AAA MMO because hardcore doesn't pay for AAA, at least nowadays. If you want "your game" quit whining and either make it, or convince devs it's worth making, by finding enough like-minded people willing declare support.
You see where you went wrong there? By saying casuals influance how games are made DOES infact lay blame to them as to why the genre is in the state its in now. Casuals money = There games getting made. So yes casuals ARE to blame.
Have to agree with goat on this.
I am pretty much in the same boat, 40 years old, married, two teenagers, full time job, college, dog (see avatar) and exercise schedule AND I still find time to play MMO's for the reasons MMO's exsist - sense of accomplishments.
Far too many "me" generation players killing the genre. I mean look at WoW (great game, not a hit piece here), remember the endless wipes on instances such as Onyxia's Lair and Molten Core as level 60? Remember having to need keys and attunements to other instances such Karazhan?
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
I'm wondering if there can be a fine line, almost a middle ground, that could satisfy all but the extreme hardcore and the super flighty casual people. I wonder if this is possible? EQ1 in it's current form is as close to this as I can think. Quick travel, but slower more strategy involved combat. Limited death penalties, but there are still death penalties. Maybe this would be considered hardcore...not sure though.
I think games should be made for both, however, I think most would actually want something inbetween (sandpark most likely). Essentially a game where things aren't instant and it gives you a sense of accomplishment, but has eliminated extreme downtime and extreme death penalties. Maybe leveling takes three months rather than 2 weeks lol.
I think most uber casual people have not played a more hardcore game for any amount of time and they don't know that sense of accomplishment (best example would be after finishing an epic quest in EQ1).
No, no .... just no. This is so easy to see and I can't believe I didn't notice it before.
It's funny you always bring up music, cause that's the clear give away. You just hate the mainstream. You liked the old MMO's cause they were bascially like underground music. Only some people really knew what they were. Only select people played them. Then, a game like WoW comes out and brings all these people to the party, you didn't want to know about it. It's like a punk band who sells out. I bet you hate Real Big Fish also?
Not talking about you, but my 22 y/o brother in law is the same way. Hates almost everything. Anything on the radio is crap, new metal is crap, he only listens to these Nordic Metal bands that a handfull of people have heard of. He hates "casual gamers" or anything mainstream for that matter... he's a hipster. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hipster
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does. You have every right to not play the game, but refusing to accept the fact that these games are MMO's, just because they're not the underground non-mainstream MMO's you want is ridiculous. You say we don't want MMO's... that's crazy. How do you know what I want? I want an MMO, perhaps just not an MMO by your definition, which is obviously far off from the industries deffinition.
oh... and by the way... a CORPG with MMO elements is an MMORPG...lol
Blame for what? They didn't steal anything from you. You receive exactly as many hardcore games as if there wasn't any casual gamers at all. You sound like envious person who complains about neighbours building much nicer houses than his, for their own money. Don't claim it ruins the neighbourhood, because it doesn't affect you in the first place.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Am I happy that most games now a days are completely catering to my playstyle? Umm. Yeah? Wouldn't you be if it were the other way around? I'm not happy because you're not getting what you want, I'm happy that I am. I really do wish some dev's would take a chance and make a game for you guys, unfortunitely, I can't make this happen. I don't want to see anyone hurt for my happiness.
Gone are those days. could you imagine telling players today that they need to do an epic size quest to get a key to enter an instance? The outrage! " I PAY 15 A MOUTH! I SHOULDENT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO GO IN HERE! CHANGE IT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!"
I remember needed to do all that stuff. It was a great part of those games. Helping others along with there querstlines to get there keys. Hell i remember a quest chain in VG that gave you a password you had to speek to gain entrance into this dungeon. had to even do a /say ( word ) to get it to work.
What did you expect? It's not charity - you can't expect that other players will suddenly donate money for games you like (but they hate), just because you're in minority. You have no right to blame anyone, really.
Great thread! Sadly, but I agree as well! It's not everyone, but many ppl who play MMO's play them for their own reasons,, most just want to pvp, some just want to play a structured rpg, and some just want to play to troll the chat channel and cause trouble... Most don't play just for the simple fact to enjoy everything the game has to offer...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
>.> i do have the right to blame someone. If someone is the cause of something then there to blame. theres no gray area here. its black and white. casuals caused this pandemic in the MMO nation so ergo there to blame.