Originally posted by Dredphyre Originally posted by Ikeda Actually, their reasoning was actually fairly good. If you looked at their maps, they followed exactly who went where and found almost NOT (as in next to zero) players were remotely interested in exploration. If I can find the article I'll repost it. http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110506 http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Those aren't the particular article but they follow the same idea.
It's really flawed logic that they have. I was in the LOTRO private testing program (from Alpha), and i got into a discussion with one of the devs over the idea of exploration. His evidence for players lack of exploration desire stemmed from their tracking of players into the regions North of Bree. As those who have played LOTRO might know, that area is wide open and lacks the familiar tunnelling landscape. There are resource nodes, a few quests, mobs, etc. To me, it was one of the most beautiful areas in Turbines Middle Earth. But this dev said that their metrics told them that few people ever visiting it, and thus his conclusion that players hate exploration. Well perhaps you all can see the flaw in this analysis? I saw it right away and pointed it out to him. I told him if that you train players with the pavlov-like response to follow bread crumbs, follow the quest trails, follow the linear paths, then OF COURSE people are going to stay on the rails. That's what they've been trained to do by the game. You can imagine that the dev had no answer to this. Same with BioWares analysis. The game itself trains players to stay on the rails. Is it any wonder then that players rarely deviate? It's a faulty analysis. Just as in statistical polling when a polling agency uses the technique called 'push' polling. When this push poll technique is used, it is used to direct the responder to a particular response, the accumulation of which is then used to 'prove' a predetermined view.
Skyrim (and Bethesda) understands exploration. When you explore, it isn't for the mere clearing of a map. There has to be some sort of tangible reward most of the time. When I've explored in SWTOR, it's by and large been a huge waste of time. Having a 10% return on time invested in exploring is not good game play design.
The dev was correct, but didn't fully explain their conclusion. What they should have said was that the people who would pay money for the game and pay money to subscribe are not likely to actually do a lot of exploring. It's such a distinct behavior that it's not really worth spending money on creating large amounts of content specifically for exploration.
Had they designed a different game, and game that wasn't the LotR that they actually designed and made a bunch of money off of, then perhaps their metrics would have shown something different.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'd say its worse than just a lack of reward. In most MMOs, not only aren't you rewarded for exploration, to me, it feels like being punished. First, because of that pavlovian training, time spent in the game without progressing feels like time lost. Xp lost. Even getting killed repeatedly while grinding would be more rewarding than wasting time looking around in areas that aren't level appropriate.
Then on top of that, the vast majority of the time, all I find are mobs that are too high level for me, since its just an area I haven't been lead to yet, and then run the risk of being one-shotted for playing the game in a way it wasn't intended to be played.
So of course, if they go and add an out of the way area that's an exception, with no indication of it, not many people are going to bother, or even know its there. It's not worth the risk, and its probably not even worth the time wasted that would be better spent xping, as intended.
Sorry, but this is nonsense, and has nothing to do at all with true exploring.
In Bartle's model, people who're predominantly the achiever type, care foremostly about getting xp and levels and gear. The explorer type cares about other stuff besides gaining xp and levels, and wouldn't see the time spent exploring as time lost, bc that's the achiever mentality, things like exploring or socialising are of (a lot) less importance to achiever types. Explorers also wouldn't get deterred by more danger or higher level mobs or other difficulties in their exploration, because that's what it's all about, venturing into unknown territory where things might not be easy and safe while discovering new places.
In EQ I traveled from Felwithe to Qeynos across Antonica including Kithicor Wood by night when most of the mobs on my way were higher level than I was and I had little idea what to expect on my travels. I did the same in many other areas in EQ and other MMO's. That's what exploring is about.
I said it when I tried Star Trek, I repeated it when I tried SwTor, and ill repeat it now.....
Developers have missed the entire point of fantasy space mmo genre. The ENTIRE appeal of space is its expansiveness.
If you are going to make a MMO, and you have space or interplanetary travel, and you make it a linear game, be prepared to have a bunch of pissed off people.
Space is for exploation. In space, I can go in any direction I chose. If your game takes away that choice, dont bother putting it in space.
EVE is the only 1 that got it right so far. SWG had some stuff right for a while.
Star Trek is free to play and SWToR will be in the same boat soon enough.
Got it devs? I hope so, im saving you a lot of tears...
Comments
As those who have played LOTRO might know, that area is wide open and lacks the familiar tunnelling landscape. There are resource nodes, a few quests, mobs, etc. To me, it was one of the most beautiful areas in Turbines Middle Earth. But this dev said that their metrics told them that few people ever visiting it, and thus his conclusion that players hate exploration.
Well perhaps you all can see the flaw in this analysis? I saw it right away and pointed it out to him. I told him if that you train players with the pavlov-like response to follow bread crumbs, follow the quest trails, follow the linear paths, then OF COURSE people are going to stay on the rails. That's what they've been trained to do by the game.
You can imagine that the dev had no answer to this.
Same with BioWares analysis. The game itself trains players to stay on the rails. Is it any wonder then that players rarely deviate? It's a faulty analysis. Just as in statistical polling when a polling agency uses the technique called 'push' polling. When this push poll technique is used, it is used to direct the responder to a particular response, the accumulation of which is then used to 'prove' a predetermined view.
Skyrim (and Bethesda) understands exploration. When you explore, it isn't for the mere clearing of a map. There has to be some sort of tangible reward most of the time. When I've explored in SWTOR, it's by and large been a huge waste of time. Having a 10% return on time invested in exploring is not good game play design.
The dev was correct, but didn't fully explain their conclusion. What they should have said was that the people who would pay money for the game and pay money to subscribe are not likely to actually do a lot of exploring. It's such a distinct behavior that it's not really worth spending money on creating large amounts of content specifically for exploration.
Had they designed a different game, and game that wasn't the LotR that they actually designed and made a bunch of money off of, then perhaps their metrics would have shown something different.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Sorry, but this is nonsense, and has nothing to do at all with true exploring.
In Bartle's model, people who're predominantly the achiever type, care foremostly about getting xp and levels and gear. The explorer type cares about other stuff besides gaining xp and levels, and wouldn't see the time spent exploring as time lost, bc that's the achiever mentality, things like exploring or socialising are of (a lot) less importance to achiever types. Explorers also wouldn't get deterred by more danger or higher level mobs or other difficulties in their exploration, because that's what it's all about, venturing into unknown territory where things might not be easy and safe while discovering new places.
In EQ I traveled from Felwithe to Qeynos across Antonica including Kithicor Wood by night when most of the mobs on my way were higher level than I was and I had little idea what to expect on my travels. I did the same in many other areas in EQ and other MMO's. That's what exploring is about.thank god you aren't a dev