There is plenty of exploration in SWTOR for a themepark game. The datacrons and lore objects do give you reasons to explore if that is your thing.
I think a lot of you are still just upset that the game didn't end up like SWG where there was pretty much no content and everything was just giant sprawling empty maps (except for the player houses everywhere). The funny thing is that most of you who want your games to be like this doomed yourselves by whining about and forever turning your back on SWG after the NGE and combat upgrade. In doing so, you told developers everywhere that sandbox games were not the way to go. Had you not abandoned the game and talked trash about it relentlessly FOR YEARS, SWG might still be around and SWTOR may never have come into being. Alas, that's not how it went. Too bad. Deal with it.
The only thing that doomed SWG was luca$ arts and $OE.
Perhaps thats true... but the fans have doomed the entire sandbox genre. AAA developers won't touch it with a 10-foot pole now.
Perhaps thats true... but the fans have doomed the entire sandbox genre. AAA developers won't touch it with a 10-foot pole now.
Thats fine. When do the major companies innovate anyway? Would you agree that 90% of the innovation comes from indy projects?
The only reason the major MMO developers took chances in the beginning was becouse they had a belief that people would play anything as long as it was "out there" and in the market. Frankly SWG itself (in terms of people) was indy, just under the guise of SOE.
People are hungry for something different, and some "darkfall" like project will hit it out of the park in the eventually.
Hey you guys think it'd be awesome if you just explored and encountered things happening, like an actual fight happening that you could intercept or some thugs robbbin or just something were you could remember.
I mean like not just data crons but [active] conflict happening and transitioning, creates different experiences if you ask me but that's just a thought.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
If you're not going off the beaten path if anything you're mssing out on great loot. It's understandble if people feel they should not explore due to the typical restraints themeparks as well as Bioware games entail, however that's not to say there's nothing to explore for.
I've been doing quite a bit of walking off the beaten path just to see what's there, and I've found it's very rewardng. My first few purple drops were found this way via seurity chests which are spread out all over the games worlds. You won't know they're there if you automatically assume there's no reason to go "exploring".
Common what are these talks about datacrons, you are not an explorer if you want to sell datacron search to people who actually ask if the game is for explorers. This is certainly not enough and neglects more important points which belongs actually to exploring. I have the feeling that some try to sell swtor for something what it actually cant deliver.
I see already that people here have such a different understanding about exploring. Exploring isnt just treasure hunting, it is to explore the world and looking for overall content, world architecture/design, the wildlife, the unknown, the adventure and more... just walking towards the horizont. You need space for this, so a linear boxed world is already not made for that, the game design already is so different to open world rpgs.
Like I said before, go and explore with MassEffect and do the same with Fallout3...there are worlds between. The same if you compare swtor with Vanguard and yes even World of Warcraft had a game design some years ago which actually did invite a lot more to explore the world than swtor...its already the game design. Or were you not excited to use the ships, the zeppelin and flight routes to see what is ahead of you in the other parts of the world, wasnt you surprised if you were the first time in the barrens about wildlife, discovering caves, dungeons and so on....
In swtor exploration is already killed with the map design. Everything is marked on it.
I did mention single players rpgs and nobody actually did answer to this. Already in single player rpgs you see vastly differences if you compare games like Fallout3/Skyrim/Morrowind with rpgs like DA/ME. These are two different game types and you will find recently these changes also in mmorpg games.
"However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it."...................
Yes, but the content is that small and the world that dull that I would never recommand this game for someone who loves actually to explore mmos/rpgs. I think it should be clear by now that we have two different type of rpg games. The world itself already is too static and lifeless and unexpected content is very limited. The world itself would need a lot more love, actually breath life into it to make it more attractive but the game is like it is and wont be different. Its a linear world with narrow paths and story driven, most delivered on a silver plate...thats alright - Its good that we have different types of rpg games and everyone can choose what he likes.
Originally posted by spizz Common what are these talks about datacrons, you are not an explorer if you want to sell datacron search to people who actually ask if the game is for explorers. This is certainly not enough and neglects more important points which belongs actually to exploring. I have the feeling that some try to sell swtor for something what it actually cant deliver. I see already that people here have such a different understanding about exploring. Exploring isnt just treasure hunting, it is to explore the world and looking for overall content, world architecture/design, the wildlife, the unknown, the adventure and more... just walking towards the horizont. You need space for this, so a linear boxed world is already not made for that, the game design already is so different to open world rpgs. Like I said before, go and explore with MassEffect and do the same with Fallout3...there are worlds between. The same if you compare swtor with Vanguard and yes even World of Warcraft had a game design some years ago which actually did invite a lot more to explore the world than swtor...its already the game design. I did mention single players rpgs and nobody actually did answer to this. Already in single player rpgs you see vastly differences if you compare games like Fallout3/Skyrim/Morrowind with rpgs like DA/ME. These are two different game types and you will find recently these changes also in mmorpg games.
"However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it."...................
Yes, but the content is that small and the world that dull that I would never recommand this game for someone who loves actually to explore mmos/rpgs. I think it should be clear by now that we have two different type of rpg games. The world itself already is too static and lifeless and unexpected content is very limited. The world itself would need a lot more love, actually breath life into it to make it more attractive but the game is like it is and wont be different. Its a linear world with narrow paths and story driven, most delivered on a silver plate...thats alright - Its good that we have different types of rpg games and everyone can choose what he likes.
Exploration (noun)
The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.
Thorough analysis of a subject or theme.
Exploration does not depend on size, or quests or anything else. You find 'exploration' where you look for it. Just because you don't like the content or the game doesn't mean that exploration doesn't exist. It exists. You just don't like it, or there's not enough of it for you to enjoy.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Common what are these talks about datacrons, you are not an explorer if you want to sell datacron search to people who actually ask if the game is for explorers. This is certainly not enough and neglects more important points which belongs actually to exploring. I have the feeling that some try to sell swtor for something what it actually cant deliver.
I see already that people here have such a different understanding about exploring. Exploring isnt just treasure hunting, it is to explore the world and looking for overall content, world architecture/design, the wildlife, the unknown, the adventure and more... just walking towards the horizont. You need space for this, so a linear boxed world is already not made for that, the game design already is so different to open world rpgs.
Like I said before, go and explore with MassEffect and do the same with Fallout3...there are worlds between. The same if you compare swtor with Vanguard and yes even World of Warcraft had a game design some years ago which actually did invite a lot more to explore the world than swtor...its already the game design.
I did mention single players rpgs and nobody actually did answer to this. Already in single player rpgs you see vastly differences if you compare games like Fallout3/Skyrim/Morrowind with rpgs like DA/ME. These are two different game types and you will find recently these changes also in mmorpg games.
"However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it."...................
Yes, but the content is that small and the world that dull that I would never recommand this game for someone who loves actually to explore mmos/rpgs. I think it should be clear by now that we have two different type of rpg games. The world itself already is too static and lifeless and unexpected content is very limited. The world itself would need a lot more love, actually breath life into it to make it more attractive but the game is like it is and wont be different. Its a linear world with narrow paths and story driven, most delivered on a silver plate...thats alright - Its good that we have different types of rpg games and everyone can choose what he likes.
Exploration (noun)
The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.
Thorough analysis of a subject or theme.
Exploration does not depend on size, or quests or anything else. You find 'exploration' where you look for it. Just because you don't like the content or the game doesn't mean that exploration doesn't exist. It exists. You just don't like it, or there's not enough of it for you to enjoy.
....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about.. I cant help you if you still dont understand that there is a difference to explore games like MassEffect or Fallout 3. I accept that you have a different view of exploration and what quality content you want for it, alright enjoy the game.
Common this is getting stupid now....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about....absurd.
Even more absurd? Thinking everyone explores for the same purposes as you do.
Common this is getting stupid now....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about....absurd.
Even more absurd? Thinking everyone explores for the same purposes as you do.
I did give examples of games and how they are difference in game design. What they offer for exploration and how the world is created. I wonder that we have to discuss this. There are certainly some points in difference we dont need to discuss further they are just apparent. It is alright if everyone has a different meaning of exploration but you dont need to quote a defintion out of a dictionary.
Originally posted by spizz Originally posted by lizardbones Exploration (noun) The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.Thorough analysis of a subject or theme.
Exploration does not depend on size, or quests or anything else. You find 'exploration' where you look for it. Just because you don't like the content or the game doesn't mean that exploration doesn't exist. It exists. You just don't like it, or there's not enough of it for you to enjoy.
....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about.. I cant help you if you still dont understand that there is a difference to explore games like MassEffect or Fallout 3. I accept that you have a different view of exploration and what quality content you want for it, alright enjoy the game.
Why do you feel like you're 'helping' or that anyone needs the help? You're not trying to explain the difference between exploration in open world games and maze like theme parks (which might actually be an interesting conversation). You're trying to say that there is no exploration in SWToR. You're trying to say that the game is somehow deficient because it's not an open world game and you cannot engage in the same style of play as you would in an open world game. That is not helpful to anyone.
Several people have come forward and said, "I have explored things in Star Wars: The Old Republic." They aren't stupid neanderthals that have just somehow stumbled into the future from the distant past and banged on a computer keyboard and suddenly they are playing video games. They really did find things and explore in the game. That means there is exploration in SWToR. You are wrong.
If, on the other hand, your point was that you cannot engage in open world style game play, which includes exploration as a main feature rather than something to do outside of the story line, you would be right. But that's not what you did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes, but the content is that small and the world that dull that I would never recommand this game for someone who loves actually to explore mmos/rpgs. I think it should be clear by now that we have two different type of rpg games. The world itself already is too static and lifeless and unexpected content is very limited. The world itself would need a lot more love, actually breath life into it to make it more attractive but the game is like it is and wont be different. Its a linear world with narrow paths and story driven, most delivered on a silver plate...thats alright - Its good that we have different types of rpg games and everyone can choose what he likes.
Don't really agree with your perception of exploration. If you have a passionate hatred towards TOR, well, that's your handicap, but linearity or quest leveling has nothing at all to do with exploration in my book, besides that TOR worlds are pretty vast especially the later ones. If you don't like to explore in TOR because you heavily dislike the game, suit yourself, but that doesn't mean that your preference in exploration or the games where to do it in is the same as that of other people -_-
I liked exploring in MMO's like EQ as well as GW, EQ2, WoW, AoC, VG, LotrO and TOR, even without the datacron and other reward stuff that are neat little additions next to exploring the whole ingame world.
After thinking about it, I'll answer with a question: When has any Bioware game had good exploration? Bioware environments are very small and linear.
Yep.
Bioware games aren't for the explorers, never have been.
Biowares games have also never been MMO's really, so I don't think they should be held to a lower standard. When I play a single player game I am pleasantly surprised when it has some depth in exploration ala Fallout and Skyrim. When I play a MMO and they are lackluster in certain departments I don't see anything wrong with calling them on it, especially when they are trying to justify a sub and keep retention up.
So I'll put forth a question as well. Shouldn't Bioware have created a game that is more than Kotor 3 with multiplayer if they plan on running it as a subscription game? Vast and rich and explorable zones would go a long way to adding some depth to the game even if you aren't the explorative type. I don't beleive in making a MMO they were trying to solely cater to the people who only played their SRPG's.
I imagine they made the mmo according to what they know, the good and the bad parts.
If you want an mmo developing neophyte to make a game for exploration, your best bet is probably Bethesda (although I've read where they said they will never make an mmo).
The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.Thorough analysis of a subject or theme.
Exploration does not depend on size, or quests or anything else. You find 'exploration' where you look for it. Just because you don't like the content or the game doesn't mean that exploration doesn't exist. It exists. You just don't like it, or there's not enough of it for you to enjoy.
....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about.. I cant help you if you still dont understand that there is a difference to explore games like MassEffect or Fallout 3. I accept that you have a different view of exploration and what quality content you want for it, alright enjoy the game.
Why do you feel like you're 'helping' or that anyone needs the help? You're not trying to explain the difference between exploration in open world games and maze like theme parks (which might actually be an interesting conversation). You're trying to say that there is no exploration in SWToR. You're trying to say that the game is somehow deficient because it's not an open world game and you cannot engage in the same style of play as you would in an open world game. That is not helpful to anyone.
Several people have come forward and said, "I have explored things in Star Wars: The Old Republic." They aren't stupid neanderthals that have just somehow stumbled into the future from the distant past and banged on a computer keyboard and suddenly they are playing video games. They really did find things and explore in the game. That means there is exploration in SWToR. You are wrong.
If, on the other hand, your point was that you cannot engage in open world style game play, which includes exploration as a main feature rather than something to do outside of the story line, you would be right. But that's not what you did.
You guys take it too personal and I have the feeling you are defending a game instead of talking about different types of games and comparing them like I try and what they offer for exploring. Alone if the poster under you calls me a hater shows me from where you guys are comming from, actually I would not even understand how someone could hate a game but understand if someone talks about issues or a personal view. It is alright that you have a different type of meaning when it comes to exploration and other share your or my type of gameplay. I dont recommand this game for explorers and this is my opinion and view of the game.
And acutally I did open a thread in december 2011 here in this forum with the same question if the game is something for explorer, half of the answers did advise that swtor is rather not a game for explorer...there are a lot of other people who share a similar view. Despite all I did buy the game and the advise from them were right due to my later own game expirience. But everyone has different preferences and thats alright.
If you tell me that Iam wrong I dont see that I have to discuss this further...because I could say in the same manner that you are both wrong, but thats not my discussion style and leads to nowhere.
I imagine they made the mmo according to what they know, the good and the bad parts.
If you want an mmo developing neophyte to make a game for exploration, your best bet is probably Bethesda (although I've read where they said they will never make an mmo).
Lets not take any of this out of context now. I never said I wanted a MMO for exploration, I just don't see why a game can't have it and the fact that it is a themepark has been an argument I just don't agree with. The OP is about asking where the exploration is not where is a game dedicated to explorers. Yes they may have made a MMO according to what they know but that didn't stop them from doing things they don't know about like tacking on $15 a month. I am sure the team needed to bring in some people who have, or had some experience in the genre so I don't accept that they didnt put more effort into this aspect simply because they stuck with what they knew. I dislike the game for reasons that are my own but they don't come without reasons. I didn't expect TOR to have much exploration to begin with but I also didnt expect KOTOR3. The OP brought up a viable question was all.
Why do you feel like you're 'helping' or that anyone needs the help? You're not trying to explain the difference between exploration in open world games and maze like theme parks (which might actually be an interesting conversation). You're trying to say that there is no exploration in SWToR. You're trying to say that the game is somehow deficient because it's not an open world game and you cannot engage in the same style of play as you would in an open world game. That is not helpful to anyone.
Several people have come forward and said, "I have explored things in Star Wars: The Old Republic." They aren't stupid neanderthals that have just somehow stumbled into the future from the distant past and banged on a computer keyboard and suddenly they are playing video games. They really did find things and explore in the game. That means there is exploration in SWToR. You are wrong.
If, on the other hand, your point was that you cannot engage in open world style game play, which includes exploration as a main feature rather than something to do outside of the story line, you would be right. But that's not what you did.
You guys take it too personal and I have the feeling you are defending a game instead of talking about different types of games and comparing them like I try and what they offer for exploring, alone if the poster under you calls me hater shows me from where you guys are comming from. It is alright that you have a different type of meaning when it comes to exploration and other share your or my type of gameplay. I dont recommand this game for explorers and this is my opinion and view of the game. If you tell me that Iam wrong I dont see that I have to discuss this further...because I could say in the same manner that you are both wrong, but thats not my discussion style and leads to nowhere.
My bad. I have you lumped in with some other posts. I apologize.
Just replace "you" with "this thread".
This thread is in the SWToR forum though, so it's going to tend to revolve around SWToR having (or not having) exploration. A discussion on the different types of exploration in games is occurring in the Pub forum under What does "exploration" in a MMORPG really mean to you? That's probably a more productive thread for a general discussion on exploration.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
After thinking about it, I'll answer with a question: When has any Bioware game had good exploration? Bioware environments are very small and linear.
Yep.
Bioware games aren't for the explorers, never have been.
I consider myself one of the true explorers, because my sense of exploration isn't triggered by just 1 type of exploration, but I like to explore in all the games I play, and I disagree with this statement. The Baldur's Gate series had enough things to explore, in particular BG2, and SWTOR as well has enough to explore, in my eyes more than an Aion or Rift or WAR or some other MMO's, simply because of incentives like the datacron rewards as well as a larger ingame world that can be explored, larger than a lot of these other MMO's. It isn't on the same level as a Vanguard or Asheron's Call, because those worlds are even larger and more massive, but still enough places to explore anyway.
Why do you feel like you're 'helping' or that anyone needs the help? You're not trying to explain the difference between exploration in open world games and maze like theme parks (which might actually be an interesting conversation). You're trying to say that there is no exploration in SWToR. You're trying to say that the game is somehow deficient because it's not an open world game and you cannot engage in the same style of play as you would in an open world game. That is not helpful to anyone.
Several people have come forward and said, "I have explored things in Star Wars: The Old Republic." They aren't stupid neanderthals that have just somehow stumbled into the future from the distant past and banged on a computer keyboard and suddenly they are playing video games. They really did find things and explore in the game. That means there is exploration in SWToR. You are wrong.
If, on the other hand, your point was that you cannot engage in open world style game play, which includes exploration as a main feature rather than something to do outside of the story line, you would be right. But that's not what you did.
You guys take it too personal and I have the feeling you are defending a game instead of talking about different types of games and comparing them like I try and what they offer for exploring, alone if the poster under you calls me hater shows me from where you guys are comming from. It is alright that you have a different type of meaning when it comes to exploration and other share your or my type of gameplay. I dont recommand this game for explorers and this is my opinion and view of the game.
If you tell me that Iam wrong I dont see that I have to discuss this further...because I could say in the same manner that you are both wrong, but thats not my discussion style and leads to nowhere.
My bad. I have you lumped in with some other posts. I apologize.
Just replace "you" with "this thread".
This thread is in the SWToR forum though, so it's going to tend to revolve around SWToR having (or not having) exploration. A discussion on the different types of exploration in games is occurring in the Pub forum under What does "exploration" in a MMORPG really mean to you? That's probably a more productive thread for a general discussion on exploration.
This is actually a quiete interesting thread you link here and I didnt see it before. Actually a lot what people describe, at least in the first pages I took a look at, share my view about what is exploring, what they expect from a game and what content games should deliver.
Actually, their reasoning was actually fairly good. If you looked at their maps, they followed exactly who went where and found almost NOT (as in next to zero) players were remotely interested in exploration. If I can find the article I'll repost it.
Those aren't the particular article but they follow the same idea.
It's really flawed logic that they have. I was in the LOTRO private testing program (from Alpha), and i got into a discussion with one of the devs over the idea of exploration. His evidence for players lack of exploration desire stemmed from their tracking of players into the regions North of Bree.
As those who have played LOTRO might know, that area is wide open and lacks the familiar tunnelling landscape. There are resource nodes, a few quests, mobs, etc. To me, it was one of the most beautiful areas in Turbines Middle Earth. But this dev said that their metrics told them that few people ever visiting it, and thus his conclusion that players hate exploration.
Well perhaps you all can see the flaw in this analysis? I saw it right away and pointed it out to him. I told him if that you train players with the pavlov-like response to follow bread crumbs, follow the quest trails, follow the linear paths, then OF COURSE people are going to stay on the rails. That's what they've been trained to do by the game.
You can imagine that the dev had no answer to this.
Same with BioWares analysis. The game itself trains players to stay on the rails. Is it any wonder then that players rarely deviate? It's a faulty analysis. Just as in statistical polling when a polling agency uses the technique called 'push' polling. When this push poll technique is used, it is used to direct the responder to a particular response, the accumulation of which is then used to 'prove' a predetermined view.
Skyrim (and Bethesda) understands exploration. When you explore, it isn't for the mere clearing of a map. There has to be some sort of tangible reward most of the time. When I've explored in SWTOR, it's by and large been a huge waste of time. Having a 10% return on time invested in exploring is not good game play design.
I don't agree that just because it is a themepark that it cannot have open world explorations. What about GW2 then? It is constantly called a themepark yet the game is all anbout exploration and as unlinear as they can make it? Only bringing GW2 up because it is an example of exploration.
What is the point of exploration when there is an NPC at the beginning of each zone showing you all the points of interest on map? By that logic you have exploration in any MMO, you just have to avoid using the map.
Plus GW2 is not released yet. All we have is dev talk and controlled gameplay.
I said it when I tried Star Trek, I repeated it when I tried SwTor, and ill repeat it now.....
Developers have missed the entire point of fantasy space mmo genre. The ENTIRE appeal of space is its expansiveness.
If you are going to make a MMO, and you have space or interplanetary travel, and you make it a linear game, be prepared to have a bunch of pissed off people.
Space is for exploation. In space, I can go in any direction I chose. If your game takes away that choice, dont bother putting it in space.
EVE is the only 1 that got it right so far. SWG had some stuff right for a while.
Star Trek is free to play and SWToR will be in the same boat soon enough.
Got it devs? I hope so, im saving you a lot of tears...
I don't agree that just because it is a themepark that it cannot have open world explorations. What about GW2 then? It is constantly called a themepark yet the game is all anbout exploration and as unlinear as they can make it? Only bringing GW2 up because it is an example of exploration.
What is the point of exploration when there is an NPC at the beginning of each zone showing you all the points of interest on map? By that logic you have exploration in any MMO, you just have to avoid using the map.
Plus GW2 is not released yet. All we have is dev talk and controlled gameplay.
Wow you totally missed the conversation and you also failed to add the rest of my post. The point of the thread was the lack of exploration in not just TOR and the point is that it is sad that games lack it these days. And I am curiouse by what logic did I state that any game can have exploration if you just didnt use the map. I never hinted at anything close to that. You came to that conclusion on your own. And the GW2 thing has been answered you are just a day late but thanx for playing.
I said it when I tried Star Trek, I repeated it when I tried SwTor, and ill repeat it now.....
Developers have missed the entire point of fantasy space mmo genre. The ENTIRE appeal of space is its expansiveness.
If you are going to make a MMO, and you have space or interplanetary travel, and you make it a linear game, be prepared to have a bunch of pissed off people.
Space is for exploation. In space, I can go in any direction I chose. If your game takes away that choice, dont bother putting it in space.
EVE is the only 1 that got it right so far. SWG had some stuff right for a while.
Star Trek is free to play and SWToR will be in the same boat soon enough.
Got it devs? I hope so, im saving you a lot of tears...
I think you have a point there. Space games have been particularly disappointing for the reason you give.
I agree that EVE does it better than any MMO currently available, but it still lacks in some fundemantal design elements for exploration.
I thought Earth and Beyond was more successful in bringing the sense of exploration to space. The problem I have with EVE exploration is that there's nothing to see. After awhile it's: asteroid belt, asteroid belt, moon, asteroid belt....jump to a new star, rinse repeat. In E&B, you'd go to new star systems and often discover hidden easter eggs frequently, or a cool looking space anomoly.
Now I understand WHY EVE can't do this. The number of systems is too large to add something interesting to a fraction of the systems that would satisfy explorer-types.
Skyrim (and Bethesda) understands exploration. When you explore, it isn't for the mere clearing of a map. There has to be some sort of tangible reward most of the time. When I've explored in SWTOR, it's by and large been a huge waste of time. Having a 10% return on time invested in exploring is not good game play design.
I'd say its worse than just a lack of reward. In most MMOs, not only aren't you rewarded for exploration, to me, it feels like being punished. First, because of that pavlovian training, time spent in the game without progressing feels like time lost. Xp lost. Even getting killed repeatedly while grinding would be more rewarding than wasting time looking around in areas that aren't level appropriate.
Then on top of that, the vast majority of the time, all I find are mobs that are too high level for me, since its just an area I haven't been lead to yet, and then run the risk of being one-shotted for playing the game in a way it wasn't intended to be played.
So of course, if they go and add an out of the way area that's an exception, with no indication of it, not many people are going to bother, or even know its there. It's not worth the risk, and its probably not even worth the time wasted that would be better spent xping, as intended.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Comments
Perhaps thats true... but the fans have doomed the entire sandbox genre. AAA developers won't touch it with a 10-foot pole now.
Thats fine. When do the major companies innovate anyway? Would you agree that 90% of the innovation comes from indy projects?
The only reason the major MMO developers took chances in the beginning was becouse they had a belief that people would play anything as long as it was "out there" and in the market. Frankly SWG itself (in terms of people) was indy, just under the guise of SOE.
People are hungry for something different, and some "darkfall" like project will hit it out of the park in the eventually.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
Hey you guys think it'd be awesome if you just explored and encountered things happening, like an actual fight happening that you could intercept or some thugs robbbin or just something were you could remember.
I mean like not just data crons but [active] conflict happening and transitioning, creates different experiences if you ask me but that's just a thought.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
If you're not going off the beaten path if anything you're mssing out on great loot. It's understandble if people feel they should not explore due to the typical restraints themeparks as well as Bioware games entail, however that's not to say there's nothing to explore for.
I've been doing quite a bit of walking off the beaten path just to see what's there, and I've found it's very rewardng. My first few purple drops were found this way via seurity chests which are spread out all over the games worlds. You won't know they're there if you automatically assume there's no reason to go "exploring".
Common what are these talks about datacrons, you are not an explorer if you want to sell datacron search to people who actually ask if the game is for explorers. This is certainly not enough and neglects more important points which belongs actually to exploring. I have the feeling that some try to sell swtor for something what it actually cant deliver.
I see already that people here have such a different understanding about exploring. Exploring isnt just treasure hunting, it is to explore the world and looking for overall content, world architecture/design, the wildlife, the unknown, the adventure and more... just walking towards the horizont. You need space for this, so a linear boxed world is already not made for that, the game design already is so different to open world rpgs.
Like I said before, go and explore with MassEffect and do the same with Fallout3...there are worlds between. The same if you compare swtor with Vanguard and yes even World of Warcraft had a game design some years ago which actually did invite a lot more to explore the world than swtor...its already the game design. Or were you not excited to use the ships, the zeppelin and flight routes to see what is ahead of you in the other parts of the world, wasnt you surprised if you were the first time in the barrens about wildlife, discovering caves, dungeons and so on....
In swtor exploration is already killed with the map design. Everything is marked on it.
I did mention single players rpgs and nobody actually did answer to this. Already in single player rpgs you see vastly differences if you compare games like Fallout3/Skyrim/Morrowind with rpgs like DA/ME. These are two different game types and you will find recently these changes also in mmorpg games.
"However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it."...................
Yes, but the content is that small and the world that dull that I would never recommand this game for someone who loves actually to explore mmos/rpgs. I think it should be clear by now that we have two different type of rpg games. The world itself already is too static and lifeless and unexpected content is very limited. The world itself would need a lot more love, actually breath life into it to make it more attractive but the game is like it is and wont be different. Its a linear world with narrow paths and story driven, most delivered on a silver plate...thats alright - Its good that we have different types of rpg games and everyone can choose what he likes.
Exploration (noun)
Exploration does not depend on size, or quests or anything else. You find 'exploration' where you look for it. Just because you don't like the content or the game doesn't mean that exploration doesn't exist. It exists. You just don't like it, or there's not enough of it for you to enjoy.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
....quoting an overall definition about exploration and telling actually people who love and practcie exploring in games what it is about.. I cant help you if you still dont understand that there is a difference to explore games like MassEffect or Fallout 3. I accept that you have a different view of exploration and what quality content you want for it, alright enjoy the game.
Even more absurd? Thinking everyone explores for the same purposes as you do.
I did give examples of games and how they are difference in game design. What they offer for exploration and how the world is created. I wonder that we have to discuss this. There are certainly some points in difference we dont need to discuss further they are just apparent. It is alright if everyone has a different meaning of exploration but you dont need to quote a defintion out of a dictionary.
Why do you feel like you're 'helping' or that anyone needs the help? You're not trying to explain the difference between exploration in open world games and maze like theme parks (which might actually be an interesting conversation). You're trying to say that there is no exploration in SWToR. You're trying to say that the game is somehow deficient because it's not an open world game and you cannot engage in the same style of play as you would in an open world game. That is not helpful to anyone.
Several people have come forward and said, "I have explored things in Star Wars: The Old Republic." They aren't stupid neanderthals that have just somehow stumbled into the future from the distant past and banged on a computer keyboard and suddenly they are playing video games. They really did find things and explore in the game. That means there is exploration in SWToR. You are wrong.
If, on the other hand, your point was that you cannot engage in open world style game play, which includes exploration as a main feature rather than something to do outside of the story line, you would be right. But that's not what you did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Don't really agree with your perception of exploration. If you have a passionate hatred towards TOR, well, that's your handicap, but linearity or quest leveling has nothing at all to do with exploration in my book, besides that TOR worlds are pretty vast especially the later ones. If you don't like to explore in TOR because you heavily dislike the game, suit yourself, but that doesn't mean that your preference in exploration or the games where to do it in is the same as that of other people -_-
I liked exploring in MMO's like EQ as well as GW, EQ2, WoW, AoC, VG, LotrO and TOR, even without the datacron and other reward stuff that are neat little additions next to exploring the whole ingame world.Yep.
Bioware games aren't for the explorers, never have been.
Biowares games have also never been MMO's really, so I don't think they should be held to a lower standard. When I play a single player game I am pleasantly surprised when it has some depth in exploration ala Fallout and Skyrim. When I play a MMO and they are lackluster in certain departments I don't see anything wrong with calling them on it, especially when they are trying to justify a sub and keep retention up.
So I'll put forth a question as well. Shouldn't Bioware have created a game that is more than Kotor 3 with multiplayer if they plan on running it as a subscription game? Vast and rich and explorable zones would go a long way to adding some depth to the game even if you aren't the explorative type. I don't beleive in making a MMO they were trying to solely cater to the people who only played their SRPG's.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I imagine they made the mmo according to what they know, the good and the bad parts.
If you want an mmo developing neophyte to make a game for exploration, your best bet is probably Bethesda (although I've read where they said they will never make an mmo).
You guys take it too personal and I have the feeling you are defending a game instead of talking about different types of games and comparing them like I try and what they offer for exploring. Alone if the poster under you calls me a hater shows me from where you guys are comming from, actually I would not even understand how someone could hate a game but understand if someone talks about issues or a personal view. It is alright that you have a different type of meaning when it comes to exploration and other share your or my type of gameplay. I dont recommand this game for explorers and this is my opinion and view of the game.
And acutally I did open a thread in december 2011 here in this forum with the same question if the game is something for explorer, half of the answers did advise that swtor is rather not a game for explorer...there are a lot of other people who share a similar view. Despite all I did buy the game and the advise from them were right due to my later own game expirience. But everyone has different preferences and thats alright.
If you tell me that Iam wrong I dont see that I have to discuss this further...because I could say in the same manner that you are both wrong, but thats not my discussion style and leads to nowhere.
Lets not take any of this out of context now. I never said I wanted a MMO for exploration, I just don't see why a game can't have it and the fact that it is a themepark has been an argument I just don't agree with. The OP is about asking where the exploration is not where is a game dedicated to explorers. Yes they may have made a MMO according to what they know but that didn't stop them from doing things they don't know about like tacking on $15 a month. I am sure the team needed to bring in some people who have, or had some experience in the genre so I don't accept that they didnt put more effort into this aspect simply because they stuck with what they knew. I dislike the game for reasons that are my own but they don't come without reasons. I didn't expect TOR to have much exploration to begin with but I also didnt expect KOTOR3. The OP brought up a viable question was all.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
My bad. I have you lumped in with some other posts. I apologize.
Just replace "you" with "this thread".
This thread is in the SWToR forum though, so it's going to tend to revolve around SWToR having (or not having) exploration. A discussion on the different types of exploration in games is occurring in the Pub forum under What does "exploration" in a MMORPG really mean to you? That's probably a more productive thread for a general discussion on exploration.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yep.
Bioware games aren't for the explorers, never have been.
I consider myself one of the true explorers, because my sense of exploration isn't triggered by just 1 type of exploration, but I like to explore in all the games I play, and I disagree with this statement. The Baldur's Gate series had enough things to explore, in particular BG2, and SWTOR as well has enough to explore, in my eyes more than an Aion or Rift or WAR or some other MMO's, simply because of incentives like the datacron rewards as well as a larger ingame world that can be explored, larger than a lot of these other MMO's. It isn't on the same level as a Vanguard or Asheron's Call, because those worlds are even larger and more massive, but still enough places to explore anyway.This is actually a quiete interesting thread you link here and I didnt see it before. Actually a lot what people describe, at least in the first pages I took a look at, share my view about what is exploring, what they expect from a game and what content games should deliver.
Thx a lot for the link...good read.
It's really flawed logic that they have. I was in the LOTRO private testing program (from Alpha), and i got into a discussion with one of the devs over the idea of exploration. His evidence for players lack of exploration desire stemmed from their tracking of players into the regions North of Bree.
As those who have played LOTRO might know, that area is wide open and lacks the familiar tunnelling landscape. There are resource nodes, a few quests, mobs, etc. To me, it was one of the most beautiful areas in Turbines Middle Earth. But this dev said that their metrics told them that few people ever visiting it, and thus his conclusion that players hate exploration.
Well perhaps you all can see the flaw in this analysis? I saw it right away and pointed it out to him. I told him if that you train players with the pavlov-like response to follow bread crumbs, follow the quest trails, follow the linear paths, then OF COURSE people are going to stay on the rails. That's what they've been trained to do by the game.
You can imagine that the dev had no answer to this.
Same with BioWares analysis. The game itself trains players to stay on the rails. Is it any wonder then that players rarely deviate? It's a faulty analysis. Just as in statistical polling when a polling agency uses the technique called 'push' polling. When this push poll technique is used, it is used to direct the responder to a particular response, the accumulation of which is then used to 'prove' a predetermined view.
Skyrim (and Bethesda) understands exploration. When you explore, it isn't for the mere clearing of a map. There has to be some sort of tangible reward most of the time. When I've explored in SWTOR, it's by and large been a huge waste of time. Having a 10% return on time invested in exploring is not good game play design.
Plus GW2 is not released yet. All we have is dev talk and controlled gameplay.
I said it when I tried Star Trek, I repeated it when I tried SwTor, and ill repeat it now.....
Developers have missed the entire point of fantasy space mmo genre. The ENTIRE appeal of space is its expansiveness.
If you are going to make a MMO, and you have space or interplanetary travel, and you make it a linear game, be prepared to have a bunch of pissed off people.
Space is for exploation. In space, I can go in any direction I chose. If your game takes away that choice, dont bother putting it in space.
EVE is the only 1 that got it right so far. SWG had some stuff right for a while.
Star Trek is free to play and SWToR will be in the same boat soon enough.
Got it devs? I hope so, im saving you a lot of tears...
Wow you totally missed the conversation and you also failed to add the rest of my post. The point of the thread was the lack of exploration in not just TOR and the point is that it is sad that games lack it these days. And I am curiouse by what logic did I state that any game can have exploration if you just didnt use the map. I never hinted at anything close to that. You came to that conclusion on your own. And the GW2 thing has been answered you are just a day late but thanx for playing.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I think you have a point there. Space games have been particularly disappointing for the reason you give.
I agree that EVE does it better than any MMO currently available, but it still lacks in some fundemantal design elements for exploration.
I thought Earth and Beyond was more successful in bringing the sense of exploration to space. The problem I have with EVE exploration is that there's nothing to see. After awhile it's: asteroid belt, asteroid belt, moon, asteroid belt....jump to a new star, rinse repeat. In E&B, you'd go to new star systems and often discover hidden easter eggs frequently, or a cool looking space anomoly.
Now I understand WHY EVE can't do this. The number of systems is too large to add something interesting to a fraction of the systems that would satisfy explorer-types.
I'd say its worse than just a lack of reward. In most MMOs, not only aren't you rewarded for exploration, to me, it feels like being punished. First, because of that pavlovian training, time spent in the game without progressing feels like time lost. Xp lost. Even getting killed repeatedly while grinding would be more rewarding than wasting time looking around in areas that aren't level appropriate.
Then on top of that, the vast majority of the time, all I find are mobs that are too high level for me, since its just an area I haven't been lead to yet, and then run the risk of being one-shotted for playing the game in a way it wasn't intended to be played.
So of course, if they go and add an out of the way area that's an exception, with no indication of it, not many people are going to bother, or even know its there. It's not worth the risk, and its probably not even worth the time wasted that would be better spent xping, as intended.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.