Well I should think EA should demoted all the lead dev as they are all incompetent.
Actually EA should demote their whole company and keep their developers. Makes no sense? Yes it does, developers are developing ideas which have to be signed off, and I am pretty sure, some major leaders in their business threw so many things over board which probably could have become something very unique. But it might have not fit the numbers which they have calculated of how many people would buy their products. Which means: They are still on the casual train. Pump out low-cost games, because for some dubious reason, there is still a market for it.
And this makes me really suspicious: How can on the one hand so many people complain about paper-thin game stories, difficulties set too easy and everything gets catered to the players - on the other hand everybody seems to buy it, still.
Are people that frustrated with their lifes that they consume every new release, no mather how obviously it is that this and that kinda game will s*ck ass?
Once you buy the rights to use an engine you can tweek in infinitely. The engine that SWTOR may look nothing like the original engine they got. Now did they change it? I don't know honestly, but to say they should make there own is short sighted and kind of showing ignorance of what is capable with the manipulation of an enginre (I mean honestly look at how wide spread the unreal engine is used). I do not think that it was a poor decision not to build or design their own engine however I do wish they would have made some tweeks in which have yet to be made. Engines can be rebuilt redesigned and reconstituted. I mean they could honestly design and engine now and work the next 3 years to tailor SWTOR to fit with it and then have an expansion such as WoW did with Cataclysm and redo "EVERYTHING". I actually think they will have to do that in order to accomidate some of the stuff people want to see in the game. Now... with that being said no I do not think they should have built their own engine as that would have added 3-4 years onto the development process and I do not believe that was suitable for Bioware at the time they were approached with this project.
Seems a few people are saying people should not comment since they are not coders.
I disagree .If you buy a car do you have to be a mechanic to know it is sluggish and handles badly.No you only need to be a driver.
Even the pc you are using if it works poorly you know it got dodgy or cheap components.
Same goes for the engine.It has one of the least responsive UI despite numerous patches to fix it.It freezes often ,everyone knows you got to press crtl U twice in the game .
The game sucks loads of power despite it clearly looking like a mid 2000s graphics which is in line with the age of the engine.
The game has proven to struggle to have more then 16 in combat in same area ,ilum only needs say 30 people to be a lag fest.
Sorry but an untried engine to a never released mmorpg sounds like short cutting and i think BW knows it they delete thread pointing to the engine as a major problem.
Now i see why all mmorpg try to tailor build their engine ,BW took a big risk and sadly it did not pay off.All they can do is try "patch" it up as best as they can since they are stuck with it.
And contrary to what some say there is some basic aka backbone of the engine that cannot be changed if that engine got problems with your game there no tweaking can solve it(this info is from a coder from codemaster i went to uni with by the way).
Bioware doesn't really have a good history with crafting game engines. Almost every engine they've had up until ME2 was total trash.
Very few game development studios actually use their own in-house built engines.
Why?
It's a ridiculous amount of work.
Hence why everybody leases engines like Unreal and Crysis and Frostbite and Havok etc. etc. because they are made by companies whose job is #1 making engines to lease to other dev studios.
Actually most mmorpg dev do build their own engine .It takes time yes thus mmorpg are in development for 4-5 yars on average and BW has been making SWTOR for that long with much more staffing and money then other mmorpg have.
I only read 2 pages of comments of this thread before face palming, so I must give feedback.. You say Hero engine is bad.. and my ignorance reply could agree with that asumption, except I feel that the Star Wars: TOR coding team is pretty non existant, so I can't fathom there is no hope for this engine, and would hardly rag on the engine becing the sole problem.
Anyhow... to the point...
Why do you all keep bringing up, Unreal 3?
Fact.. UNREAL 3 IS NOT A MMORPG ENGINE. The mere fact of recommending it, is absurd.
I only read 2 pages of comments of this thread before face palming, so I must give feedback.. You say Hero engine is bad.. and my ignorance reply could agree with that asumption, except I feel that the Star Wars: TOR coding team is pretty non existant, so I can't fathom there is no hope for this engine, and would hardly rag on the engine becing the sole problem.
Anyhow... to the point...
Why do you all keep bringing up, Unreal 3?
Fact.. UNREAL 3 IS NOT A MMORPG ENGINE. The mere fact of recommending it, is absurd.
funny enough EA again tried to use unreal engine for UXOwhich never made it to launch.Seems maybe someone in EA like to cut cost by buying engines rather then build it.
Here is 2exemple.64 bit is a good techno yet game dev and console maker fight toot and nail against it.have been for almost a decade.donnybrook another great techno for massive like eve wow or other title suppodly they inhouse techno is better yet if you check Ms test so far none have been able to even come close to donnybrook. Tessalation another 64 bit all over again great tech but for some reason game maker don't have anything but copy and paste coder.why you think Ms give basic caurse over channel9. Because often Ms have tocorrect the most stupid basic coding error.and Ms engineer see that the various erroneous code was copy and pastedthey re like wtf it is coding basic 101 .the first thing programmer learn yetms is shwoingthe building block (start)codingfor all major like c++.basic etc etc etc.free why so coder stop doingthe first 4line of code wrong.so you will pardon me but most coderin dev gamingare copy and paste programmerand really need to listen to Microsoft instead of fighting toothand nail against imagined agosto
Originally posted by nobottters I only read 2 pages of comments of this thread before face palming, so I must give feedback.. You say Hero engine is bad.. and my ignorance reply could agree with that asumption, except I feel that the Star Wars: TOR coding team is pretty non existant, so I can't fathom there is no hope for this engine, and would hardly rag on the engine becing the sole problem. Anyhow... to the point... Why do you all keep bringing up, Unreal 3? Fact.. UNREAL 3 IS NOT A MMORPG ENGINE. The mere fact of recommending it, is absurd.
And HERO engine was supposed to be one, but it's not proven to be lacking.
The Unreal engine can be applied to MMOs just as easily as it can be to shooters.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Originally posted by herculesSeems a few people are saying people should not comment since they are not coders. I disagree .If you buy a car do you have to be a mechanic to know it is sluggish and handles badly.No you only need to be a driver.
That isn't the same thing.
As a driver, you have a right to comment on your satisfaction with the car performance. However, you need to be a mechanic or engineer to point out specific defects and shortcoming in construction.
To discuss the impact, performance, benefits and shortcomings of SWTOR engine choice is something you need to have deep knowledge about Hero engine and the game code.
Without one, you do not know what is happening under the hood, just like with car example.
Whether you use licenced engine or you make your own, you will always have to deal with decisions you cannot easily "tweak" later on. That's how coding works.
Game engine is just a set of API, tools to build another software. You will be as much limited with methods and solution included in the engine as much as you will benefit from them.
Take an example when you would like to build your own personal website.
You have 2 options:
1) You will learn HTML and some scripting language, let's say JavaScript. 2) You will use some web design tool like FrontPage or Dreamweaver.
Which option is better for you?
Is it truly better to spent months learning how to code or just use a design tool and build your site over the weekend, sacrifying compatibility and flexibility?
While in this case professional web designer would never use a web design tool, programmers and engineers face very similar decisions that are shaping and limiting their further options.
Did anyone ever think that perhaps the egineers at Bioware reviewed the engines available and decided that the Heroengine was the best choice for what they wanted to achieve with their game? Is it possible that they knew what they needed from the engine, reviewed what the engine could do and made the decision? I'm sure that people paid to do this job didn't just pick it cause it was the cheapest and purddiest.
I mean honestly, you all sound like bitter sports fans who sit at home and complain about a coaches on the field calls in game. People think just because they're good at "Madden" that they have what it takes to make real decisions in a game.
Well its the same thing. If you weren't working on THIS specific game with Bioware... you're really not qaulified to make the call.
ALSO - Just to put this out there... I have disliked EVERY game I've ever played that used the Unreal Engine. The characters just don't move right in my opinion. Seems to lend itself to the point and click. And the Cryengine on Aion feels the same.
Did anyone ever think that perhaps the egineers at Bioware reviewed the engines available and decided that the Heroengine was the best choice for what they wanted to achieve with their game? Is it possible that they knew what they needed from the engine, reviewed what the engine could do and made the decision? I'm sure that people paid to do this job didn't just pick it cause it was the cheapest and purddiest.
I mean honestly, you all sound like bitter sports fans who sit at home and complain about a coaches on the field calls in game. People think just because they're good at "Madden" that they have what it takes to make real decisions in a game.
Well its the same thing. If you weren't working on THIS specific game with Bioware... you're really not qaulified to make the call.
ALSO - Just to put this out there... I have disliked EVERY game I've ever played that used the Unreal Engine. The characters just don't move right in my opinion. Seems to lend itself to the point and click. And the Cryengine on Aion feels the same.
Absolutely-fricking-not!
Are you kidding!?! Those hacks went "You have an engine? We need an engine! We'll take whatever you have scribbled on a napkin and make it work."
/fits into theme of thread
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Originally posted by Praetalus Did anyone ever think that perhaps the egineers at Bioware reviewed the engines available and decided that the Heroengine was the best choice for what they wanted to achieve with their game? Is it possible that they knew what they needed from the engine, reviewed what the engine could do and made the decision? I'm sure that people paid to do this job didn't just pick it cause it was the cheapest and purddiest. I mean honestly, you all sound like bitter sports fans who sit at home and complain about a coaches on the field calls in game. People think just because they're good at "Madden" that they have what it takes to make real decisions in a game. Well its the same thing. If you weren't working on THIS specific game with Bioware... you're really not qaulified to make the call. ALSO - Just to put this out there... I have disliked EVERY game I've ever played that used the Unreal Engine. The characters just don't move right in my opinion. Seems to lend itself to the point and click. And the Cryengine on Aion feels the same.
Absolutely-fricking-not! Are you kidding!?! Those hacks went "You have an engine? We need an engine! We'll take whatever you have scribbled on a napkin and make it work."
/fits into theme of thread
Isn't Mortal Online written using some version of the Unreal Engine? Don't they blame a lot of their issues on that game engine? For what it's worth, I've actually messed around with the Unreal 3 engine, and the visuals can be ridiculously cool...but it falls short on the networking. You'd have to do all the networking from scratch.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Did anyone ever think that perhaps the egineers at Bioware reviewed the engines available and decided that the Heroengine was the best choice for what they wanted to achieve with their game? Is it possible that they knew what they needed from the engine, reviewed what the engine could do and made the decision? I'm sure that people paid to do this job didn't just pick it cause it was the cheapest and purddiest.
I mean honestly, you all sound like bitter sports fans who sit at home and complain about a coaches on the field calls in game. People think just because they're good at "Madden" that they have what it takes to make real decisions in a game.
Well its the same thing. If you weren't working on THIS specific game with Bioware... you're really not qaulified to make the call.
ALSO - Just to put this out there... I have disliked EVERY game I've ever played that used the Unreal Engine. The characters just don't move right in my opinion. Seems to lend itself to the point and click. And the Cryengine on Aion feels the same.
Absolutely-fricking-not!
Are you kidding!?! Those hacks went "You have an engine? We need an engine! We'll take whatever you have scribbled on a napkin and make it work."
/fits into theme of thread
Ok... you got some coffee out of my nose on that one... thanks....LOL
recall a long time ago some developer saying that each mmo is unique and needs its own engine built for it ,in response to why they abandoned the use of the unreal engine for that mmo.
Now we have the hero engine which is at best a 2005 engine which was meant for hero's journey but sold as a engine .it was originally designed for a fantasy mmo .
So how would you rate the hero engine in swtor which i feel is not performing well .lag when more then 30 people on the screen is horrible and the game for what it looks seems to suck a lot of power.
what do you think?
I'm sure the Hero engine they're using now to build the game is nothing like it was when they first started using it. It's probably so heavily modified for their purposes that it might as well be their own engine. Probably just like DCUO or Aion using the Unreal engine. I think that creating thei own engine from the ground up would have cost another 2 years of development - money I'm sure EA did not want to shell out considering they already spent $200+ million on it already.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Gdemami most that post info here glean info from pro on the web.if you are saying Ms shouldn't give video lesson on how to code in c++ and all other free video lesson at channel9.they don't do it for charity they do it becaause those amateur coder are breaking everything and who has to fix it yep ms
Max amount of player supported by donnybrooks about 1000 (even Ms say a number)number of player supported on the same map none in hero engine.and when you read the multiplayer link it doesn't help either right then and there ea shouldn't have baught this a company that isn't capable of proving to you how many player on a single map the game support(ilum) i am sorry but if Ms can do it then it means this should be the first question answered if you are into buying an engine.
Max amount of player supported by donnybrooks about 1000 (even Ms say a number)number of player supported on the same map none in hero engine.and when you read the multiplayer link it doesn't help either right then and there ea shouldn't have baught this a company that isn't capable of proving to you how many player on a single map the game support(ilum) i am sorry but if Ms can do it then it means this should be the first question answered if you are into buying an engine.
What is the maximum capacity of a single area server?
"This depends on the hardware and the CPU budget for a user. For example, you can define the CPU budget on a per user basis to be 10 megahertz. If you have hardware that runs at 3 gigahertz, approximately 300 users could exist on the same area server. However, some of the scripting functions such as broadcast chat do not all scale linearly, so the actual capacity of the server would be somewhat less. If you have a game implementation that offloads some of the CPU budget to other servers, then more users will fit."
They break the areas up into "area servers" from what I understand. Still reading...lol.
Comments
Considering how amazingly fluid and smooth the gameplay is, no, HERO was a great choice. Game performance is phenomenal even on older systems.
Come to my house, play on my comp. I posted my specs. Then edit your blasphemious post.
Actually EA should demote their whole company and keep their developers. Makes no sense? Yes it does, developers are developing ideas which have to be signed off, and I am pretty sure, some major leaders in their business threw so many things over board which probably could have become something very unique. But it might have not fit the numbers which they have calculated of how many people would buy their products. Which means: They are still on the casual train. Pump out low-cost games, because for some dubious reason, there is still a market for it.
And this makes me really suspicious: How can on the one hand so many people complain about paper-thin game stories, difficulties set too easy and everything gets catered to the players - on the other hand everybody seems to buy it, still.
Are people that frustrated with their lifes that they consume every new release, no mather how obviously it is that this and that kinda game will s*ck ass?
Unbelievable.
Buttery smooth game performance
Once you buy the rights to use an engine you can tweek in infinitely. The engine that SWTOR may look nothing like the original engine they got. Now did they change it? I don't know honestly, but to say they should make there own is short sighted and kind of showing ignorance of what is capable with the manipulation of an enginre (I mean honestly look at how wide spread the unreal engine is used). I do not think that it was a poor decision not to build or design their own engine however I do wish they would have made some tweeks in which have yet to be made. Engines can be rebuilt redesigned and reconstituted. I mean they could honestly design and engine now and work the next 3 years to tailor SWTOR to fit with it and then have an expansion such as WoW did with Cataclysm and redo "EVERYTHING". I actually think they will have to do that in order to accomidate some of the stuff people want to see in the game. Now... with that being said no I do not think they should have built their own engine as that would have added 3-4 years onto the development process and I do not believe that was suitable for Bioware at the time they were approached with this project.
Seems a few people are saying people should not comment since they are not coders.
I disagree .If you buy a car do you have to be a mechanic to know it is sluggish and handles badly.No you only need to be a driver.
Even the pc you are using if it works poorly you know it got dodgy or cheap components.
Same goes for the engine.It has one of the least responsive UI despite numerous patches to fix it.It freezes often ,everyone knows you got to press crtl U twice in the game .
The game sucks loads of power despite it clearly looking like a mid 2000s graphics which is in line with the age of the engine.
The game has proven to struggle to have more then 16 in combat in same area ,ilum only needs say 30 people to be a lag fest.
Sorry but an untried engine to a never released mmorpg sounds like short cutting and i think BW knows it they delete thread pointing to the engine as a major problem.
Now i see why all mmorpg try to tailor build their engine ,BW took a big risk and sadly it did not pay off.All they can do is try "patch" it up as best as they can since they are stuck with it.
And contrary to what some say there is some basic aka backbone of the engine that cannot be changed if that engine got problems with your game there no tweaking can solve it(this info is from a coder from codemaster i went to uni with by the way).
i sense the irony in you!
Actually most mmorpg dev do build their own engine .It takes time yes thus mmorpg are in development for 4-5 yars on average and BW has been making SWTOR for that long with much more staffing and money then other mmorpg have.
I only read 2 pages of comments of this thread before face palming, so I must give feedback.. You say Hero engine is bad.. and my ignorance reply could agree with that asumption, except I feel that the Star Wars: TOR coding team is pretty non existant, so I can't fathom there is no hope for this engine, and would hardly rag on the engine becing the sole problem.
Anyhow... to the point...
Why do you all keep bringing up, Unreal 3?
Fact.. UNREAL 3 IS NOT A MMORPG ENGINE. The mere fact of recommending it, is absurd.
Regards,
Nobotters - A better gaming experience
funny enough EA again tried to use unreal engine for UXOwhich never made it to launch.Seems maybe someone in EA like to cut cost by buying engines rather then build it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_X:_Odyssey
And HERO engine was supposed to be one, but it's not proven to be lacking.
The Unreal engine can be applied to MMOs just as easily as it can be to shooters.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Seems they would of had access to the engine Sourcecode...Which means technically they could of implemented anything they wanted...
http://www.heroengine.com/heroengine/licensing-options/
Which makes the point of them developing their own moot considering the level of flexibility.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
That isn't the same thing.
As a driver, you have a right to comment on your satisfaction with the car performance. However, you need to be a mechanic or engineer to point out specific defects and shortcoming in construction.
To discuss the impact, performance, benefits and shortcomings of SWTOR engine choice is something you need to have deep knowledge about Hero engine and the game code.
Without one, you do not know what is happening under the hood, just like with car example.
Whether you use licenced engine or you make your own, you will always have to deal with decisions you cannot easily "tweak" later on. That's how coding works.
Game engine is just a set of API, tools to build another software. You will be as much limited with methods and solution included in the engine as much as you will benefit from them.
Take an example when you would like to build your own personal website.
You have 2 options:
1) You will learn HTML and some scripting language, let's say JavaScript.
2) You will use some web design tool like FrontPage or Dreamweaver.
Which option is better for you?
Is it truly better to spent months learning how to code or just use a design tool and build your site over the weekend, sacrifying compatibility and flexibility?
While in this case professional web designer would never use a web design tool, programmers and engineers face very similar decisions that are shaping and limiting their further options.
Did anyone ever think that perhaps the egineers at Bioware reviewed the engines available and decided that the Heroengine was the best choice for what they wanted to achieve with their game? Is it possible that they knew what they needed from the engine, reviewed what the engine could do and made the decision? I'm sure that people paid to do this job didn't just pick it cause it was the cheapest and purddiest.
I mean honestly, you all sound like bitter sports fans who sit at home and complain about a coaches on the field calls in game. People think just because they're good at "Madden" that they have what it takes to make real decisions in a game.
Well its the same thing. If you weren't working on THIS specific game with Bioware... you're really not qaulified to make the call.
ALSO - Just to put this out there... I have disliked EVERY game I've ever played that used the Unreal Engine. The characters just don't move right in my opinion. Seems to lend itself to the point and click. And the Cryengine on Aion feels the same.
Absolutely-fricking-not!
Are you kidding!?! Those hacks went "You have an engine? We need an engine! We'll take whatever you have scribbled on a napkin and make it work."
/fits into theme of thread
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Isn't Mortal Online written using some version of the Unreal Engine? Don't they blame a lot of their issues on that game engine? For what it's worth, I've actually messed around with the Unreal 3 engine, and the visuals can be ridiculously cool...but it falls short on the networking. You'd have to do all the networking from scratch.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ok... you got some coffee out of my nose on that one... thanks....LOL
I'm sure the Hero engine they're using now to build the game is nothing like it was when they first started using it. It's probably so heavily modified for their purposes that it might as well be their own engine. Probably just like DCUO or Aion using the Unreal engine. I think that creating thei own engine from the ground up would have cost another 2 years of development - money I'm sure EA did not want to shell out considering they already spent $200+ million on it already.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
The engine isn't what is hurting this game. It has EA written all over it.
http://wiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.heroengine.com/
Here ya go. All the reading you want! Let's all read up so we can take this conversation to the next level!
What is the maximum capacity of a single area server?
"This depends on the hardware and the CPU budget for a user. For example, you can define the CPU budget on a per user basis to be 10 megahertz. If you have hardware that runs at 3 gigahertz, approximately 300 users could exist on the same area server. However, some of the scripting functions such as broadcast chat do not all scale linearly, so the actual capacity of the server would be somewhat less. If you have a game implementation that offloads some of the CPU budget to other servers, then more users will fit."
They break the areas up into "area servers" from what I understand. Still reading...lol.