I've played a ton of MMO's since Everquest (mostly themepark) and there are a few little nuances in SWTOR I'd consider innovative.
Group dialog - Yes I picked the story and the dialog but it truly is something unique as far as I've seen. Yes AoC had dialog in tortage, but it did not have group dialog for all quests throughout the game. Sure it can be seen as something minor, but I find this to be highly satisfying in pugs or with friends. I've probably heard all of the starter dialog, coruscant dialog, and taris dialog 3-4 times now because of alts and groups (and I'm still enjoying it with out space barring)
Companions in relation to the story - The companions are more then just pets in this game. I've grown quite fond of my companion characters because they have distinct personalities, subplots, and roles. If the level of interaction between my companions and I aren't innovative in the MMO space then I'm not sure what is.
Overall presentation of story elements - This may be more in the refinement category, but it is probably the greatest change they brought to the genre. Everything in this game gives reason to all your actions in a very clear and concise manner. There have never been moments of "why am I doing this?" or feeling like a peasant who just decided to pick up a sword and level as a warrior for no reason.
There are plenty of things that BW could do to improve and innovate further, but to say they have done nothing just seems narrow minded. No one has pulled off the level of detail they have put into the story progression of this game in the MMO space. Many have dabbled in it, but not fully embraced it like BW.
Anyways I'm sure I'll get yelled at for my opinions but this is what I truly feel as an MMO hobbyist since EQ1 days.
I can't think of anything else right now, but i'm sure there is more to nitpick at. I'm just astounded that Ohlen can claim Swtor is actually innovative in the MMO genre. I just don't see it.
If anyone wants to show me where i'm wrong or point me to innovative things in Swtor, please do. My perception and opinions will probably change if you do.
All in all this is the most innovative MMO out right now.
The mixture of VO and Story to the MMO genre is innovative as is the Sandbox/themepark hybred of AA or the combat and DE system of GW2 is.
You don't have to turn something on its head in order to innovate.
VO, Companions, crafting and Story are the innovations TOR bring IMO.
Snaylor your comments usually get a laugh out of me when I read them but the highlighted statement is your masterpiece so far. Keep it up my friend.
My problem with people stating SWTOR is innovative is the same problem I have with Steve Jobs getting an Inventor of the Year award (or some such) for the iPhone because he didn't really invent anything in it, just packaged up a bunch of technologies in a single, cutsie box. Yes, it worked great and all that but invent? ... no.
SWTOR's only realy has about 1 full innovation. Half for the fully voiced and acted questing system which many of us saw a glimps of in AoC but were all butt-hurt over it when all those cool VO's stopped after the starter zone - but done before. The other half would be the light/dark system making changes to your character but we've all see that type of stuff in single player games and such, like Fable.
So... I read through the list in the OP carefully...
Is the thread starter seriously trying to argue that SW:TOR isn't innovative because it doesn't do everything in exactly the same way every other MMO does it?
<Slowly turns around and walks away from the thread shaking head in disbelief>
So... I read through the list in the OP carefully...
Is the thread starter seriously trying to argue that SW:TOR isn't innovative because it doesn't do everything in exactly the same way every other MMO does it?
No. The thread starter is arguing that SWTOR isnt innovative just because the Devs at Bioware THINK it is.
Obviously you didnt read very carefully at all.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
As an example, in Rift I really hated the whole quest/quest hub thing. I remember in beta looking at all those marks over the heads and felt the air just leaving my body. So I decided "screw that" and essentially did most of my levling the old fashioned way and of course through rifts.
Not only did I find the experience more liberating but I also met more people in this manner. Not to say I never did quests but I rarely did quests.
I found myself grouping up and running with the group through several rift invasions. Completely unfettered by stereotypical theme park restrictions. Did the same in LOTRO. I stopped taking quests that I felt beneath my character and mostly explored when I could.
Players can take their fun into their own hands but in some cases they just don't want to.
This ^ exacly. The modern MMO gamer is simply different than the players the genre used to cater to.
I don't miss the hours+ looking for groups and forced party mechanics that made solo play impossible, but I had the same experience in Rift where I had more fun just wandering around exploring/crafting and doing rifts/invasions than trying to do the quests.
I even tried in WoW to do the same thing - no quests just exploration, crafting, and grinding and it was a lot of fun for a while but that lack of open world party play killed it.
Sadly, TOR doesn't do all too much to encourage open world game play besides the heroic quests.
But perhaps more sad is how much better the questing experience is if you do it with a friend!
Multi-player dialogue system is amazingly fun, but completely under utilized and the only fault is with the players.
You can take the same raw mechanics that are not new and make something new out of them.
Using voice overs is not new. Lore or stories for games are not new. Using voice overs to tell a story arc for your character that lasts through the entire leveling process is new. Each class (character) has one story with many chapters that gives (roughly) 140 hours of game play. That's new.
Companions are not new. Companions that participate in the ongoing story narrative, with their own likes and dislikes is new.
Morality choices are not new (in gaming). They are new (afaik) in MMORPG. Morality choices that affect the tone of the ongoing story narrative are new.
As you might notice from my post, the ongoing story that characters participate in is the primary, driving feature. It's the 'hook'. If the story is ignored, there's nothing that hasn't been seen before. But then the primary reason for playing the game would be ignored as well, so it's not surprising that nothing new would be seen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I can't think of anything else right now, but i'm sure there is more to nitpick at. I'm just astounded that Ohlen can claim Swtor is actually innovative in the MMO genre. I just don't see it.
If anyone wants to show me where i'm wrong or point me to innovative things in Swtor, please do. My perception and opinions will probably change if you do.
All in all this is the most innovative MMO out right now.
Innovative to me means something that has never been seen before in a game...or something used in a different way to bring about a different and unexpected result. Not adding in features common or used in other games to a genre because now the technology allows it. It is like saying Inboard GPS in cars was innovative when handheld GPS had been around for a long time. It was new to cars not innovative.
SWTOR wants to be innovative, bless its heart, but it misses the mark where that 200 mil could have gone the distance. Fully VO'd story, dialog choices that don't really change the end results, and a slight difference in crafting that I personally don't even care for, are not going to set this game apart.
The real trolls are the the devs, claiming their MMO is innovative, leading people to believe it's going to be a vastly different experience... when it isn't. So congrats to them as well.
"Innovation" is definitely a tricky word to surmise. In truth, all I can say is that when I played the TOR beta , I did not feel that I was having a new experience by playing it. It was definitely not my cup of tea, especially the story. Depends on what games you have played already I guess.
Regarding James Ohlen, I am totally disastisfied by his reponse both in this article and on the forums. It just feels absolutely underwhelming. In my persepctive, Mr. Ohlen discussing others games and genres looks nothing more than a weak attempt at deflection. He should be talking about TOR and what TOR will do, not what other games did and how people reacted to those games. In the end, It makes it asthough he is just making excuses.
So... I read through the list in the OP carefully...
Is the thread starter seriously trying to argue that SW:TOR isn't innovative because it doesn't do everything in exactly the same way every other MMO does it?
This thread wouldn't exist if James Ohlen (Game Director) would have clarified what exactly is innovative in that interview. Hence, my list.
While I am sure thatthere are many new MMO players that may like it and will play it for a longer span of time, it has failed attracting any Classic MMORPG player.
Reminds me the NGE
Personally, I don't see that as a problem since it is the jaded "Classic MMORPG player" that more often than not ruin a community.
Well I do not like to put everyone in the same basket, for sure there are Jaded Classic MMORPG players out there, but that holds true also for Modern MMORPG players, there are for sure some that are also jaded.
More often than not, it has been my observation in the past 12 or so years (I exclude the first two since I was newbie to the genre and too focussed playing the game rather than thinking about these things) playing these games that it comes down often to a clash of perceptions.
This thread and the articles by the Designers of TOR, constitute proof of that. Many players have a different perception which clashes with what the one the owners of the game have or would like their players to have.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Comments
People who choose not to see something (or change the definition to suit their way of thinking) will always succeed at what they set out for.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I've played a ton of MMO's since Everquest (mostly themepark) and there are a few little nuances in SWTOR I'd consider innovative.
Group dialog - Yes I picked the story and the dialog but it truly is something unique as far as I've seen. Yes AoC had dialog in tortage, but it did not have group dialog for all quests throughout the game. Sure it can be seen as something minor, but I find this to be highly satisfying in pugs or with friends. I've probably heard all of the starter dialog, coruscant dialog, and taris dialog 3-4 times now because of alts and groups (and I'm still enjoying it with out space barring)
Companions in relation to the story - The companions are more then just pets in this game. I've grown quite fond of my companion characters because they have distinct personalities, subplots, and roles. If the level of interaction between my companions and I aren't innovative in the MMO space then I'm not sure what is.
Overall presentation of story elements - This may be more in the refinement category, but it is probably the greatest change they brought to the genre. Everything in this game gives reason to all your actions in a very clear and concise manner. There have never been moments of "why am I doing this?" or feeling like a peasant who just decided to pick up a sword and level as a warrior for no reason.
There are plenty of things that BW could do to improve and innovate further, but to say they have done nothing just seems narrow minded. No one has pulled off the level of detail they have put into the story progression of this game in the MMO space. Many have dabbled in it, but not fully embraced it like BW.
Anyways I'm sure I'll get yelled at for my opinions but this is what I truly feel as an MMO hobbyist since EQ1 days.
Snaylor your comments usually get a laugh out of me when I read them but the highlighted statement is your masterpiece so far. Keep it up my friend.
My problem with people stating SWTOR is innovative is the same problem I have with Steve Jobs getting an Inventor of the Year award (or some such) for the iPhone because he didn't really invent anything in it, just packaged up a bunch of technologies in a single, cutsie box. Yes, it worked great and all that but invent? ... no.
SWTOR's only realy has about 1 full innovation. Half for the fully voiced and acted questing system which many of us saw a glimps of in AoC but were all butt-hurt over it when all those cool VO's stopped after the starter zone - but done before. The other half would be the light/dark system making changes to your character but we've all see that type of stuff in single player games and such, like Fable.
So... I read through the list in the OP carefully...
Is the thread starter seriously trying to argue that SW:TOR isn't innovative because it doesn't do everything in exactly the same way every other MMO does it?
<Slowly turns around and walks away from the thread shaking head in disbelief>
No. The thread starter is arguing that SWTOR isnt innovative just because the Devs at Bioware THINK it is.
Obviously you didnt read very carefully at all.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
This ^ exacly. The modern MMO gamer is simply different than the players the genre used to cater to.
I don't miss the hours+ looking for groups and forced party mechanics that made solo play impossible, but I had the same experience in Rift where I had more fun just wandering around exploring/crafting and doing rifts/invasions than trying to do the quests.
I even tried in WoW to do the same thing - no quests just exploration, crafting, and grinding and it was a lot of fun for a while but that lack of open world party play killed it.
Sadly, TOR doesn't do all too much to encourage open world game play besides the heroic quests.
But perhaps more sad is how much better the questing experience is if you do it with a friend!
Multi-player dialogue system is amazingly fun, but completely under utilized and the only fault is with the players.
You can take the same raw mechanics that are not new and make something new out of them.
Using voice overs is not new. Lore or stories for games are not new. Using voice overs to tell a story arc for your character that lasts through the entire leveling process is new. Each class (character) has one story with many chapters that gives (roughly) 140 hours of game play. That's new.
Companions are not new. Companions that participate in the ongoing story narrative, with their own likes and dislikes is new.
Morality choices are not new (in gaming). They are new (afaik) in MMORPG. Morality choices that affect the tone of the ongoing story narrative are new.
As you might notice from my post, the ongoing story that characters participate in is the primary, driving feature. It's the 'hook'. If the story is ignored, there's nothing that hasn't been seen before. But then the primary reason for playing the game would be ignored as well, so it's not surprising that nothing new would be seen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ha..Haha... AAHHAHA.. BAAAHAHAHAHAHHA. Hooo... HAH.. Uuuheh...
Wow
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Lmao. Thanks for the laugh dude.
Innovative to me means something that has never been seen before in a game...or something used in a different way to bring about a different and unexpected result. Not adding in features common or used in other games to a genre because now the technology allows it. It is like saying Inboard GPS in cars was innovative when handheld GPS had been around for a long time. It was new to cars not innovative.
SWTOR wants to be innovative, bless its heart, but it misses the mark where that 200 mil could have gone the distance. Fully VO'd story, dialog choices that don't really change the end results, and a slight difference in crafting that I personally don't even care for, are not going to set this game apart.
I don't think he believes it either.
The real trolls are the the devs, claiming their MMO is innovative, leading people to believe it's going to be a vastly different experience... when it isn't. So congrats to them as well.
"Innovation" is definitely a tricky word to surmise. In truth, all I can say is that when I played the TOR beta , I did not feel that I was having a new experience by playing it. It was definitely not my cup of tea, especially the story. Depends on what games you have played already I guess.
Regarding James Ohlen, I am totally disastisfied by his reponse both in this article and on the forums. It just feels absolutely underwhelming. In my persepctive, Mr. Ohlen discussing others games and genres looks nothing more than a weak attempt at deflection. He should be talking about TOR and what TOR will do, not what other games did and how people reacted to those games. In the end, It makes it asthough he is just making excuses.
This thread wouldn't exist if James Ohlen (Game Director) would have clarified what exactly is innovative in that interview. Hence, my list.
Well I do not like to put everyone in the same basket, for sure there are Jaded Classic MMORPG players out there, but that holds true also for Modern MMORPG players, there are for sure some that are also jaded.
More often than not, it has been my observation in the past 12 or so years (I exclude the first two since I was newbie to the genre and too focussed playing the game rather than thinking about these things) playing these games that it comes down often to a clash of perceptions.
This thread and the articles by the Designers of TOR, constitute proof of that. Many players have a different perception which clashes with what the one the owners of the game have or would like their players to have.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard