Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Okay I get it now....
Zecktorin
Member Posts: 231
in Guild Wars 2
After studying I do see the beauty in GW2.... looks pretty good, but I just dunno if I can go without a tank,dps,and heals... I enjoy that structure the most in alot of my MMOs. I just don't think it will work for me, but I will give it a try. 
Comments
but thats the beauty about the game. you CAN play as one of those setups if you choose, regardless of class. lets say a hunter wants to play as tank, then they need a heavily armored and high health pet, kinda like in WoW. Or an elementalist of all things, which would require a lot of debuffing magic attacks to make it possible to survive hit after hit. I love this game. They have put a lot of thought and many many hours into just being creative with ideas. They aren't constricted with deadlines and are allowed to try out whatever comes to mind. It's great
I was actuallly wondering if these means it might be harder to balance, or if theres anything that needs to be balanced.
If it works it will be awesome, but it sounds like a balancing nightmare.
If they can really make an elementalist as effective a tank as a guardian that would be impressive and really would bring a whole new dynamic, but Im not convinced...
Mesmer = cc/dps
Engineer = dps
Thief = dps
Guardian = tank
Necro = dps/minion master
Ranger = ranged dps
Warrior = tank
Elementalist = dps
If they can get people away from playing those obvious roles it will be really interesting
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
They are a lot of mmo that don't have dedicated healer or tank. IF you can't really grasp how it can work just think about all the player vs player type of computer games; like fps or rts or whatever rpg coop games around. You really don't need dps/healer/tank trilogy to make combat and group combat interesting, its clearly not needed at all. Its just a way to do it, that's all. You can always try those non trinity mmo like Uo for example.
What i don't understand is how some people cannot even visualize non trinity combat. I mean not a single coop computer games work with some kind of trilogy. Is it like a kind of religion i'm not aware of or something? I don't say that to offend you, but really i'm not sure if i'm serious or not here, it's just weird at this point how many people have asked the same question.
A very large majority of multiplayer games never ever had trinity. How can it be weird to some people is beyond me.
Fixed.
I wonder why many people think they need dedicated tank, dps and healer to survive. If you have played any of the diablo games, you should ask yourself how you survived in that game. The simple answer is that all classes could tank, dps and heal(by potions).
OK, Im not disputing that each class can do control/support/damage, but will they be as effective?
I really suspect a Mesmer will be better at CC than a Thief, and a Warrior will be a better tank than an Elementalist etc because their skills are geared towards it, so if thats the case then people will tend to go with those roles.
IF they can balance it all perfectly then good on them, but its gonna be tough
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Yes i kind of understand that if you ask that to a normal "mmo gamer" at least, but its just very strange, as i said all coop games use non trinity combat. They are quiet a few coop rpg too, like let's say Diablo, or whatever can come to your mind, they don't use the trinity concept and they work, and they are obvious to everyone.
He just "fixed" your post with not tank in it and you keep on with the tank stuff?
OK I got the specifics wrong, but the point still stands, seems like classes are geared towards certain roles, so they would be more effective at those roles, even if they can do other things
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
According to ANet it will be simple impossible to play as in trinity system. To achieve this, there are no single target heals on other players - basicly biggest heal is one in your healing slot. Without dedicated healer noone will survive as dedicated tank on boss fight.
Everyone have strong self heal skill in GW2, and you still have some healing skills from some class like elementalist. But the game play isn't centered around agro mechanism focused on a tank, dps taking down mobs, and healer maintaining the tank, that's all. Mob will swap targets for example and stuff like that, elementalist will be able to dps, not like usual healers in mmo, its really not "special". Its just an other way to look at combat and more precisely on grouping mechanism. Trinity was made to promote grouping in pve mainly, since themepark and EQ game was not a pvp game at all. So it was made so people will absolutely need each other to go through content. Soe team said that back then, right its not me making up things to explain, its how Soe team developed the trinity combat in themeparks.
The only reason classes look like they are geared towards specific roles is because people make them out to be. The way classes work in GW2 is very different from other MMOs. Have you seen a mage be able to take tons of damage in other games? Rarely. I bet an elementalist with earth attunement and the right traits and elite skills and everything else you can fine-tune will be able to take just as much damage as a warrior or a guardian. The classes in GW2 are differentiated only by their playstyle not their role.
From what I have seen in videos, I think the idea is that different weapons/attunements (for each class) will be "better" at certain roles, and it will be up to the player to switch to the right weapon at the right time.
If you ever played a lower level druid in WoW, I think it would be a fairly similar experience. Druids in WoW could shapechange, and their different forms took on different roles. They had one for damage (cat), tanking (bear), and healer/nuking (druid). If you wanted to play a (lower-level) druid to their full potential, you really had to switch between your forms as the situation dictated.
I remember I would nuke a MOB to pull it, maybe lay down some dots, change into cat form to DPS, change into druid form to heal, change into bear form to tank while my mana regen'd, etc. etc.
That was some of the most fun and complex combat I ever played in an MMORPG...being able to rotate throughout the roles midcombat was so much fun. Unfortunately, in WOW when you leveled up your druid, you would have to specialize in a certain role so you lost that flexibility. But it was awesome while it lasted.
I see this kind of principle in GW2's combat as well. You will be able to fulfill lots of different roles, just not all at once, but you have the capability to change roles midcombat, and this (hopefully) will be vital to your success.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I miss my hybrid from Uo, swaping from magic to melee was really nice. I think thats why i'll first be playing elementalist and theif, they seam to give the richest flexibility, but then i always liked more complex combat.
In this following video a developer from a large development house explains the necessity of the trinity combat design for MMO style games. Listen for the AernaNet response...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7IZZXQ89Oc
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
I think the lack of the holy trinity will be a big deal to anyone who feel comftable with that paradigm. This is clearly one of the reasons why Anet tries to explain their concept at every opportunity. They already have firsthand experience with the trouble and/or frustration this sort of change can cause to some.
People who played Guild Wars have seen this first hand: A lot of players tried to apply the "usual" trinity-principles to PvE and failed miserably. Guild Wars still have the concept of damage and healing. (Well, damage mitigation is more effective than direct healing most of the time.) The dualclass system in GW allows people to play very differently - An elementalist (with the right enchantments) can be a great tank, A mesmer can help the healers as a de-hexer or a necro can do very well with conditionremoval on the side.
Of course MMO's should not be a simulation, but I have always found the aggro-system in "holy trinity" games a little silly. In GW the aggro system is very different and mobs go for the softer targets first. The aggro system in GW2 will be even more advanced. One quote I found helpful:
Aggro will take into account quite a few factors:
Simple creatures use a system based on proximity, how much damage is being done to them, how much damage they're doing, health of the player, armor, etc. More complex creatures will use all of the above among other things such as using specific skills, attacking the player that is the furthest away from them, focus on players wearing medium or light armor and try to chase them. Some creatures might run away from you, swap weapons to have entirely new skills, dodge your attacks, use specific skills on players at specific times, etc. Different armies will also have their own systems that are based on different themes, skills, and AI.
To me this is definately an upgrade to GW's aggro system, and all others for that matter. It also indicates that you can not expect a lot of success if you insist on applying the same set of skills to each and every PvE opponent - You need to act, move and change weapons/skills dynamically.
As for balancing: GW have more than 1500 skills, 10 classes AND dualclass system. It also has some of the most well balanced gameplay even if it is not perfect. If anyone can pull this off, Anet have a proven trackrecord.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
For those of you who still doubt Guild Wars 2's non-trinity system and still believe that you'll be able to take your Plate Armoured Warrior, with a Sword & Shield, into a Dungeon and effectively tank. Well why don't you read this quote from someone who's actually played and completed the 1st dungeon in GW2, in Explorable mode...
(source)
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmon
Thats simple. One guardian with all defensive or tank type powers. One water elemental with healing type powers. The rest some reasonable mix of melee and ranged dps.
PS: I refuse to believe in this no-trinity business till I actually play it.
I'm going to copy/paste a response I gave in another thread regarding this point. Some of you may have seen/read this stuff before.
Roles are certainly present, but stop using the terms "tank" and "healer" when talking about roles for GW2 combat. These terms, as they are widely used and known, are inexact parallels when trying to describe the roles of GW2 group combat. There is no "tank". There is no "healer". It is "support" and "control". No, "support" does not mean "healing". "Support" means "support," which encompasses a wide variety of dmg mitigating skills, from minor heals (not full fledged "I'll heal while you tank" heals) to incoming damage reduction, to damage absorption, to health boons etc. "Control" is damage avoidance through the use of tactics. Traps, stuns, slows, knock-backs etc. None of these skills are so strong as to allow someone to take on traditional roles of "tank" or "healer." If I could, I would underline that last sentence a bajillion times. If you gotta health problem, then it's your problem. (#6 on your keyboard is your friend. Use it!).
The dungeons are not completed in the traditional manner (e.g.: tank runs in, holds aggro, healer heals and dps do damage). Put this style out of your mind, ok? I'm talking blank slate here. The structure and tactics of combat in dungeons will be dynamic. Meaning, how you play each dungeon will be completely different based on the profession combination you go into it with. No, you don't need a warrior, or a guardian, or a necromancer, or an elementalist. 5 thieves could get the job done just as effectively as any other combo. But if you go into a dungeon under the pretense of having someone "tank" while you "heal", well then... you're setting yourself up for failure. The combat in Guild Wars 2 just doesn't work like that.
If my last post wasn't enough, then here's an example of your typical trash pull in Guild Wars 2. You know, the kind where a tank and mindlessly jump in, faceroll their AOE taunts and aggro generatiing skills, whilst the DPS pew pews away and the healer heals...
Gotta love having these post bookmarked for such an occasion ^_^ (source)
My party consisted of a warrior (me), 2 eles (my brother and a dev from content design), a guardian and an engineer (both played by 2 more devs from content design). We came upon a room filled with little spiders. And these weren't just any little spiders. They were vicious little shits, let me tell you. Anyway, we rolled up to a ledge that was raised up above the room where the spiders were located, with a staircase that led down to them. I had my long bow equipped, so I fired an explosive arrow down on them and they all came swarming toward us. Before we could even come up with a strategy, they swarmed and completely annihilated us. After rez'ing back up, we went to that ledge again but discussed a strat this time.
The strat discussions we had was not so much, "you do/be this or that" but rather, "Hey, I have this ability. I'll throw this down after you do that thing you said you could do." Obviously we needed a tactic that would involve killing them before they reached us, since we had discovered (the hard way) that taking them head on was suicide. So, just as I fire my AoE explosive arrow to get their attention, the engineer throws down a sticky grenade of some kind on the ground in front of the stairs. As they swarm toward us they all got slowed in the sticky goo and we started lighting them up. The 2 ele's were dropping meteor showers, I was using my rain of arrows, and the engineer sat just out of their reach, using his flamethrower. The guardian stood side by side with the engineer, holding a torch in his offhand blowing awesome blue flames at them. Then as the goo let up, the guardian threw down his barrier at the base of the steps, stopping the spiders in their tracks as we continued firing down range at them. Just as they closed in on us, I threw down my elite banner and sent them all flying back down the stairs. At that point the sticky grenade was back up and they got slowed just as we finished them off.
An important note: If any or all of us attempted to "tank" that... failure my friend. Failure.
When the little spiders were cleaned out, the big spider boss showed up. Our first time fighting it, the guardian and I both went running in. Squash... it one-shot me. Then it turned to the guardian and one-shot him. One of the devs who designed the dungeon was standing over my shoulder and goes... "uhh... ya, you don't wanna be in melee range of that guy." So we changed our strat completely. It was all about using ranged abilities and continually dodging out of the spider boss' poison spit that it kept spitting ALLL over the room.
Honestly, it was so much fun! Knowing that every fight was NOT going to follow the defunct and boring structure of tank/heal/dps made every step forward an exciting adventure of tactical discovery.
QFT
lol, i told you not to bother. do you understand that the people still saying this already know different, they're simply being contrarion out of bias? they don't really want to like this game, and they don't care what they have to post in order to tear it down.
one would argue it's karma for the "hate" of a certain other game, except almost everything negative i have seen posted about that game is actually true.
there's no point in explaining the lack of trinity or aggro anymore. every user on this site has seen your posts 100 times over, and i'm guessing a good chunk of the lurkers who aren't signed up as well.
The whole trinity idea was so foreign to me only just three years ago. After being exposed to it, my initial thought was how contrived and artificial it all was. It actually required the dev to "create" the tactic to work with an artificial thing called agro. Anotehr word for idiotic AI opponent.
I've alwasy wanted a game that used combined arms, since it is the real way to wage war. Other than the few games I've played over the years (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault ect) where this was standard practice to plan out an attack using *gasp* tactics. GW2 is the first MMO I've seen that is actually pushing the concept hard. Im sure there were others, but this was the first I have been exposed to in this genre. Amen to that!
Read what master10k wrote! It's a great example of the system. Forget about the traditional sense of "tank". No profession can actually "tank" like you can in say WoW. You. Will. Die. Have I made that clear. I will say it again for extra clarity you willl die. While it's true, there are more tankier professions (like the warrior, NOT THE GUARDIAN!), they just can't take the damage people are use to taking in other MMOs.
Rather, you "tank" in a different way. This way is, you CONTROL the mob/boss/whatever. You use stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, daze, etc. You may have all 5 people just juggling the mob back and forth until it's down. EVERY profession is capable of controlling the mob, not tanking it in the traditional sense, controlling it. Elementalist may snare it, warrior may knock it down, etc.
While doing this, EVERYONE needs to be paying attention to their environment. It's exactly what Anet wants you to do, PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME, not the UI. If you see an ele lay down a wall of fire, or a necro lay down a poison cloud, don't just stand there out of the way of it. Use it to your advantage! Use the field to add extra damage to your attacks.
While doing this, everyone needs to be paying attention to their teammates. If one teammate is struggling remaining alive, someone needs to step up and find a way to help. There are no ally targetted heals. Or if one teammate goes down, it's not the end of the world. A couple people distract the boss/mob, while someone rallies the teammate.
Yeah, I'm glad that I only got really into these silly MMO combat mechanics with Rift. So it will be much easily for me to adapt, since playing GW2 will be like playing my other co-op games, not these generic MMORPGs.
I really don't think it should be that hard for people to adapt if they ever played any other kind of multiplayer game. I can go from playing Rift to playing BF3 without any issues.
To be honest, I think people are just fishing for arguments. I can understand that some people LIKE the trinity system and may not like that GW2 doesn't have it.
But I don't think that the vast majority of people are to stupid to understand a non-trinity system. And this tends to be where these arguments go. "No one will get it if it's not the trinity!"
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?