Personally, I consider roleplaying (in singleplayer) or roleplaying stereotypes (the dirty greedy always drunk dwarf etc) very pointless.
And no, having a story doesnt equal roleplaying. Otherwise tons of shooters etc would suddenly be RPGs.
Story is roleplaying fuel, if you enjoy the story then obviously it helps to get into character. I find the op post really funny (but great to hear) I thought people had forgotton how to use their imaginations, there is hope after all!
Yes, I agree, story serving as background information for your character is an important part of role playing, however, further on, the word "playing" in the "roleplaying" is greatly reduced in SWTOR. It's more like moving the story forwards and passively observing it. The dialogues do not give you different gameplay experience, they just award you with different dark/light/companion points, and if you turn them down, the story simply stops - so turning it down is like pausing a movie. It's not much of a roleplaying if you're just observing one event after another with some minigames in between (combat).
personally I think cut-scenes does nothing to engage you with a game, especially in a mmorg. 10 years out of date, but everyone to their own.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
For me I love the VO and cutscenes but it isn't going to be everyones cup of tea. Its an entirely different way of leveling and for people that like to ignore text while powerleveling, this isn't going to be the game for them. I doubt this will be the future for mmos, more like a niche thing since few companies will want to spend the money for it.
I love the class quests and the planet main quests. I space through many of the others and don't feel guilty.
I do feel very attached to my character and try to consistently make his choices. This is by far the most enjoyable leveling experience I've ever experienced. My only complaint in terms of voice overs is that the most minor of quests require several skips of dialog jsut to say, yes I'll kill 10 wamp rats for you. I think they may have been better served by having more menial quests on the mission boxes and saved the voice overs for jsut the good storylines.
How is it a bloody roleplaying? If you're watching a film are you roleplaying? If you're reading a book are you roleplaying? If you're observing a cut-scene and then have to choose a dialogue line out of three, is that the pinnacle of roleplaying as you said in your OP? Incredible how wrongly understood is the term roleplaying.
Hmm, haters gona hate ? sorry could not resist it.
I am 41 and started roleplaying at 12, had an amazing math teacher who decided to teach us math using D&D, since then I have been involved in just about every kind of roleplay from tabletop vampire and d&d to live action completely unscripted, I was part of the first (UK) live action mage the ascension roleplay (we had the books shipped over on day of release and hired an old pub for the location 20-30 hours of minds eye theatre fun.
Lead the first live action official silverpack and ran the first verified glasswalker clan in the uk (stoke).
My first roleplay lead into Vampire the masquerade was very simple given by a bastard of a storyteller in a note "your a hacker, you just found out about something called the technocracy, you are in your bedroom...I would run"
That started of an almost year long live action roleplay which had us roleplaying in everything from a carpark, student union party on campus to a graveyard (no scripts no out of game deals or powerplay) (until the uk camarila got involved).
Mark was one of the best storytellers I have ever had the joy of being around, he could take 10-20 of us to a 100+ person student union party/bar event and get us roleplaying and keeping the masquerade rules then fluidly move out into the carpark still roleplaying, move from there into town center and on to a graveyard.
GM's and storytellers love me because they know that they can throw anything at me and I will wing it, I never read the source books took all my information only as gained in game...Hell I became a ventrue (vampire) was told a ronin could give me some information about the technocracy.. I did not know about the hatred between werewolves and vamps, when I first met this ronin I actually called him a racist for how he was treating me lol.
14 years later and I really amazingly assume I know what roleplay is and how to roleplay.
See its in the word Role...Play to play a role, to take on a persona and run with it.
Mass effect an action rpg, in that game I play a role, I role...play, his every decision is a role play decision, same goes for most rpg's and SWTOR, I am playing a role..
You tried to come back stating films or books well unless they are interactive unless you are one of the cast, unless you are playing a role then they are not roleplay.
BUT
SWTOR and any other mmo can be a roleplay if you have the imagination to simply step inside your character and thing either what would I do if I were her or what would she do in this situation and in THAT! every single VO or quest that gives you a choice even if that choice is to take it or not YOU can be role playing.
Originally posted by calranthe Had a discussion on teamspeak today trying to figure out the reasons why some of us me including are absolutely loving the VO and storyline and others are not. After much discussion (20+ people) one of the main reasons seemed to be roleplay, now I am not talking about sandbox purist rp but a different kind of rp, I roleplay as in play the role of my characters in SWTOR, which makes these quests so much more engaging, more enjoyable and part of the journey instead of a rush to end game, Each of my characters has a different background and ideals, different drives, some are close to myself and easy to rp, others like my sith inquisitor, she is a real piece of work and a challenge to play. I find myself at every quest relating to it from my characters perspective and Bioware have made a storyline that encourages this.
Bioware can craft a story. I am glad they still have that going for them. Although in an MMO, the devs should build the world and let the players build the story through their actions and adventures. the strict train track point A to B to C model doesnt apppeal to me for an MMO. works just fine in a single player RPG tho.
Definitely roleplay and also, and this is going to probably not go over well with those who this isn't an issue for, but PATIENCE or lack of it. I find that when I'm in a rush I don't enjoy sitting and listening to the dialog unfold. If I just relax and sit back and see how MY character moves the conversation then it becomes a blast, compelling and very hard to walk away from.
How is it a bloody roleplaying? If you're watching a film are you roleplaying? If you're reading a book are you roleplaying? If you're observing a cut-scene and then have to choose a dialogue line out of three, is that the pinnacle of roleplaying as you said in your OP? Incredible how wrongly understood is the term roleplaying.
Hmm, haters gona hate ? sorry could not resist it.
I am 41 and started roleplaying at 12, had an amazing math teacher who decided to teach us math using D&D, since then I have been involved in just about every kind of roleplay from tabletop vampire and d&d to live action completely unscripted, I was part of the first (UK) live action mage the ascension roleplay (we had the books shipped over on day of release and hired an old pub for the location 20-30 hours of minds eye theatre fun.
Lead the first live action official silverpack and ran the first verified glasswalker clan in the uk (stoke).
My first roleplay lead into Vampire the masquerade was very simple given by a bastard of a storyteller in a note "your a hacker, you just found out about something called the technocracy, you are in your bedroom...I would run"
That started of an almost year long live action roleplay which had us roleplaying in everything from a carpark, student union party on campus to a graveyard (no scripts no out of game deals or powerplay) (until the uk camarila got involved).
Mark was one of the best storytellers I have ever had the joy of being around, he could take 10-20 of us to a 100+ person student union party/bar event and get us roleplaying and keeping the masquerade rules then fluidly move out into the carpark still roleplaying, move from there into town center and on to a graveyard.
GM's and storytellers love me because they know that they can throw anything at me and I will wing it, I never read the source books took all my information only as gained in game...Hell I became a ventrue (vampire) was told a ronin could give me some information about the technocracy.. I did not know about the hatred between werewolves and vamps, when I first met this ronin I actually called him a racist for how he was treating me lol.
14 years later and I really amazingly assume I know what roleplay is and how to roleplay.
See its in the word Role...Play to play a role, to take on a persona and run with it.
Mass effect an action rpg, in that game I play a role, I role...play, his every decision is a role play decision, same goes for most rpg's and SWTOR, I am playing a role..
You tried to come back stating films or books well unless they are interactive unless you are one of the cast, unless you are playing a role then they are not roleplay.
BUT
SWTOR and any other mmo can be a roleplay if you have the imagination to simply step inside your character and thing either what would I do if I were her or what would she do in this situation and in THAT! every single VO or quest that gives you a choice even if that choice is to take it or not YOU can be role playing.
You've spent most of the part of your post introducing yourself, and then you ended with this weird definition of roleplaying. Assuming a role in a video game does not automatically mean you're roleplaying. Under your assumption, Far Cry 1 is roleplaying, since you're assuming a role of a guy who wants to shoot the whole island (or w/e was the story about), Civilization is roleplaying, since you're behaving as if you were an immortal leader of a nation, and so on.
Fortunately, roleplaying is defined by totally different features in video games, not by assuming a role, or watching a cut-scene. In such case all games would be roleplaying games, which isn't true obviously.
If you're observing a cut-scene and then have to choose a dialogue line out of three, is that the pinnacle of roleplaying as you said in your OP?
Yes, it is.
Just because your role is scripted does not make it less role-playing.
Actually. thats exactly what it is. Lesser Role Playing.
The illusion of choice in games is either a step in the wrong direction or not a big enough step in the right direction. The world should have a story and then your character reacts to it and then the story reacts back. With this everything is scripted. The choices don't matter, you don't change or affect anything. With "regular" MMOs, they aren't pretending to give you choices that matter, instead, they are what they are. This game, and other games lie dragon age, mass effect, LA noire, etc just boil down to hundreds of pointless choices with only 3 or 4 choices that affect the plot. This concept applied to an MMO doesn't make it any better. I mean if people like that, great, but this is far from being innovative and clever.
Had a discussion on teamspeak today trying to figure out the reasons why some of us me including are absolutely loving the VO and storyline and others are not.
After much discussion (20+ people) one of the main reasons seemed to be roleplay, now I am not talking about sandbox purist rp but a different kind of rp, I roleplay as in play the role of my characters in SWTOR, which makes these quests so much more engaging, more enjoyable and part of the journey instead of a rush to end game, Each of my characters has a different background and ideals, different drives, some are close to myself and easy to rp, others like my sith inquisitor, she is a real piece of work and a challenge to play.
I find myself at every quest relating to it from my characters perspective and Bioware have made a storyline that encourages this.
Actually, you are not roleplaying, and I am not speaking in ropleplaying in a LARP sense either, but story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into stats and (or) attributes. Either you are roleplaying, or you are not. Actually, roleplaying encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes (mostly outside of any game mechanic) in order to make their character their own –the mental process the player takes in constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. SWTOR takes a vast swath of this freedom, away from the player, while it shoves a 'heroic' and very rigid path down player's throats. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
With SWTOR's rigid emphasis on story, there is no easy way or in-game mechanic to allow the player freedom to create those background stories, personalities and personas of their characters. All of that information has already been decided for the player by the high and mighty BioWare writters, and the crappy thing is that every other character that chooses the same class, has the same 'heroic' story. Players are not able to create their own adventures in SWTOR, since if they attempt to deviate from the story, there is nothing there, being that the game was designed to be played in a very, very specific manner. Attempting to deviate from this path, the player is prohibited, nay punished, for doing so and trying to be creative or original.
You've spent most of the part of your post introducing yourself, and then you ended with this weird definition of roleplaying. Assuming a role in a video game does not automatically mean you're roleplaying. Under your assumption, Far Cry 1 is roleplaying, since you're assuming a role of a guy who wants to shoot the whole island (or w/e was the story about), Civilization is roleplaying, since you're behaving as if you were an immortal leader of a nation, and so on.
Fortunately, roleplaying is defined by totally different features in video games, not by assuming a role, or watching a cut-scene. In such case all games would be roleplaying games, which isn't true obviously.
I simply stated my background because your posts seemed to start with "people do not know what rp is" style.
Actually all video games that you actually become part of, play a part from gordon freeman to max payne you are playing that role which by simple definition is role play yes it is linear but it is still a role to play be that a freedom fighter or a hero, a villain or civillian.
That is the point it is all on your personal ability to make that leap, that empathy with your character, to see things from his or her point of view.
To change something from a "go here collect 10 shinies" to an actual decision and consequence for your character.
Taking your time, enjoing what bioware has done, using what is available instead of seeing everything as a limitation because it is you who limits yourself not the game.
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal. The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that know can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Only in your limited idea of role-playing, a book is in no way roleplay because you have no choice within, you do not take part, in SWTOR you make decisions for your character, you role-play i am sorry you can not get that simple definition, I role play every character in swtor both out there doing quests, making decisions based on my characters ideals or hatreds on her personality or past, no less than taking a break in the cantina and interacting with others there for the same purpose.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Only in your limited idea of role-playing, a book is in no way roleplay because you have no choice within, you do not take part, in SWTOR you make decisions for your character, you role-play i am sorry you can not get that simple definition, I role play every character in swtor both out there doing quests, making decisions based on my characters ideals or hatreds on her personality or past, no less than taking a break in the cantina and interacting with others there for the same purpose.
It is by simple definition role-play
Nope.
The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that now can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal. The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and a very damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, and thus they can change the world, and we can't have that no can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
Agree, gamebooks - Joe Dever - Lone Wolf series, those that gave you 2-4 options after each paragraph, are close to SWTOR, even though they were presenting you different options, they always lead to the same ending. It is roleplaying, however, a roleplaying of the lowest level.
In the moment a choice matters to me it becomes important to me and i made an important choice in a game what means i made a choice that is important to me in a world that only exists as illusion of a more or less real world which gives it as much significance as any other choice in such a world.
Thank You!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal. The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that know can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
So, by your thought process, a whole genre of games that we refer to as JRPGs are not RPGs? Simply because the role is defined for us and the story plays out in narrative I can't roleplay the character?
I think this thread goes back to a statement made some weeks ago by one of the members here that because you can't climb a tree, TOR is not a roleplaying game.
Roleplayers roleplay within the confines of the system. Paper, boardgame, ccg, sandbox, themepark, ect. Those with the imgaination can do so with ease.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Only in your limited idea of role-playing, a book is in no way roleplay because you have no choice within, you do not take part, in SWTOR you make decisions for your character, you role-play i am sorry you can not get that simple definition, I role play every character in swtor both out there doing quests, making decisions based on my characters ideals or hatreds on her personality or past, no less than taking a break in the cantina and interacting with others there for the same purpose.
It is by simple definition role-play
Nope.
The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that know can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
(writing this on second screen while playing SWTOR)
Who said roleplay is only definded by world changing events, by city changing events or by end game content or by the walls imposed on a game.
I have the ability, sadly you do not seem to, to role play in a by your standards limited themepark of little choice and change, wooti for me, sad face for you
I have 3 primary roleplay chars on this game at the moment
My bountyhunter is treding a very fine line which is only justified by his work ethic, many uncomfortable personal decision and plots have played out for him at a personal level, that is valid roleplay I am sorry if you can not get that simple concept.
Your ability to roleplay in any situation even within the most rigid of worlds is a personal skill, roleplay is not defined by the world around you, only your ability to handle and imagination.
First thing I did when starting each character on SWTOR was to decide and define what motivates this char, what is his or her core values, soft and hard limits and every single quest and choice I make is based on how those characters have grown who they have become, it may not be your idea of rolepaly because by your standard it seems roleplay is not possible in SWTOR but it works and I see alot of people doing it,
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal. The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that know can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
So, by your thought process, a whole genre of games that we refer to as JRPGs are not RPGs? Simply because the role is defined for us and the story plays out in narrative I can't roleplay the character?
I think this thread goes back to a statement made some weeks ago by one of the members here that because you can't climb a tree, TOR is not a roleplaying game.
Roleplayers roleplay within the confines of the system. Paper, boardgame, ccg, sandbox, themepark, ect. Those with the imgaination can do so with ease.
Oh no, its definitely roleplaying.
Its just roleplaying the same sense that driving a bumper car in an amusement park is to Formula 1 racing.
Who said roleplay is only definded by world changing events, by city changing events or by end game content or by the walls imposed on a game.
I have the ability, sadly you do not seem to, to role play in a by your standards limited themepark of little choice and change, wooti for me, sad face for you
I have 3 primary roleplay chars on this game at the moment
My bountyhunter is treding a very fine line which is only justified by his work ethic, many uncomfortable personal decision and plots have played out for him at a personal level, that is valid roleplay I am sorry if you can not get that simple concept.
Your ability to roleplay in any situation even within the most rigid of worlds is a personal skill, roleplay is not defined by the world around you, only your ability to handle and imagination.
First thing I did when starting each character on SWTOR was to decide and define what motivates this char, what is his or her core values, soft and hard limits and every single quest and choice I make is based on how those characters have grown who they have become, it may not be your idea of rolepaly because by your standard it seems roleplay is not possible in SWTOR but it works and I see alot of people doing it,
I'm very happy for you, and I'm glad that you can roleplay in an extremely limited setting, but I think your missing the question, "Is that preferable to a more open system?" Also, I consider a game that doesn't allow a player or a group of players to effect a good deal of change (notice I didn't say 'total' change) into the world, to not be a good indicator of player freedom.
I never said these games couldn't be fun, and many SPRPGs are fun, but as I've said many times, simply completing quests to fufill a story isn't roleplaying. It's no different than reading a book or watching a movie. You might be watching it or reading it, but you have no participatory value in doing so. I feel that a MMO(RPG) in particular should allow players freedom to impart change into the world. For instance, if someone kills all the sheep, then there wouldn't be any more sheep. Why allow this? It should be allowed because player actions have conscequences, and it makes actions matter. The point being that some players would prevent this from the sheep from becoming exceedingly rare or even extinct. This is the same reason why people don't drive on the wrong side of the road, because there are conscequences to that action (i.e., you could be killed, total your vehicle, or god forbid kill someone else). Conscequence of action makes the world seem more real, and it isn't just a series of boring quests, that everyone will do in the course of completing the 'story'.
Also, what your doing with you characters by determing their motivations, core values and limits is roleplaying, and I congratulate you on that. However, any choice you could make within SWTOR based on it's limitations severely impedes the great roleplaying that you are doing with your characters. Your character might be light side motivated, but the series of quests you complete with that motivation don't effect any real change in the story of your character. Whereas if you were unbound in a more free system, they obviously would.
Had a discussion on teamspeak today trying to figure out the reasons why some of us me including are absolutely loving the VO and storyline and others are not.
After much discussion (20+ people) one of the main reasons seemed to be roleplay, now I am not talking about sandbox purist rp but a different kind of rp, I roleplay as in play the role of my characters in SWTOR, which makes these quests so much more engaging, more enjoyable and part of the journey instead of a rush to end game, Each of my characters has a different background and ideals, different drives, some are close to myself and easy to rp, others like my sith inquisitor, she is a real piece of work and a challenge to play.
I find myself at every quest relating to it from my characters perspective and Bioware have made a storyline that encourages this.
Indeed, my family is loving it.
There is so much to do in this game it's nuts. I don't even want rush to 50
Without a good story, there is no game. Without a story to keep me going, I quickly grow tired of the gaming hamster-wheel. As such, SWTOR has my attention... when the story is over, I'm done and on to the next.
Seems to me that a few people in this topic are arguing their style of roleplay being better than another, because they are failing horribly at defining what is roleplaying. I'm sorry, but any game that allows you to assume the role of another is roleplaying in my book. Even first person shooters have roleplaying elements, despite the different mechanics and presentation. Part of the charm of roleplaying games specifically over others is the depth of interaction with the game world, other players and the story as well as things like dice to determine outcomes, statistics that can be improved over time, avatars that evolve and become more powerful and more heroic in their storylines....etc.
I'm not a purist and by no means am I an elitist who thinks there is only one way to roleplay or that there is a best way to foster it with certain mechanics / content / style of the game world itself, and while I understand and respect the perspectives of people like Thillian and his friends, I do not condone their tone nor attitude that theirs is the one and only right way to roleplay and that games like TOR are no different than reading a book.
Comments
personally I think cut-scenes does nothing to engage you with a game, especially in a mmorg. 10 years out of date, but everyone to their own.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I love the class quests and the planet main quests. I space through many of the others and don't feel guilty.
I do feel very attached to my character and try to consistently make his choices. This is by far the most enjoyable leveling experience I've ever experienced. My only complaint in terms of voice overs is that the most minor of quests require several skips of dialog jsut to say, yes I'll kill 10 wamp rats for you. I think they may have been better served by having more menial quests on the mission boxes and saved the voice overs for jsut the good storylines.
Hmm, haters gona hate ? sorry could not resist it.
I am 41 and started roleplaying at 12, had an amazing math teacher who decided to teach us math using D&D, since then I have been involved in just about every kind of roleplay from tabletop vampire and d&d to live action completely unscripted, I was part of the first (UK) live action mage the ascension roleplay (we had the books shipped over on day of release and hired an old pub for the location 20-30 hours of minds eye theatre fun.
Lead the first live action official silverpack and ran the first verified glasswalker clan in the uk (stoke).
My first roleplay lead into Vampire the masquerade was very simple given by a bastard of a storyteller in a note "your a hacker, you just found out about something called the technocracy, you are in your bedroom...I would run"
That started of an almost year long live action roleplay which had us roleplaying in everything from a carpark, student union party on campus to a graveyard (no scripts no out of game deals or powerplay) (until the uk camarila got involved).
Mark was one of the best storytellers I have ever had the joy of being around, he could take 10-20 of us to a 100+ person student union party/bar event and get us roleplaying and keeping the masquerade rules then fluidly move out into the carpark still roleplaying, move from there into town center and on to a graveyard.
GM's and storytellers love me because they know that they can throw anything at me and I will wing it, I never read the source books took all my information only as gained in game...Hell I became a ventrue (vampire) was told a ronin could give me some information about the technocracy.. I did not know about the hatred between werewolves and vamps, when I first met this ronin I actually called him a racist for how he was treating me lol.
14 years later and I really amazingly assume I know what roleplay is and how to roleplay.
See its in the word Role...Play to play a role, to take on a persona and run with it.
Mass effect an action rpg, in that game I play a role, I role...play, his every decision is a role play decision, same goes for most rpg's and SWTOR, I am playing a role..
You tried to come back stating films or books well unless they are interactive unless you are one of the cast, unless you are playing a role then they are not roleplay.
BUT
SWTOR and any other mmo can be a roleplay if you have the imagination to simply step inside your character and thing either what would I do if I were her or what would she do in this situation and in THAT! every single VO or quest that gives you a choice even if that choice is to take it or not YOU can be role playing.
Bioware can craft a story. I am glad they still have that going for them. Although in an MMO, the devs should build the world and let the players build the story through their actions and adventures. the strict train track point A to B to C model doesnt apppeal to me for an MMO. works just fine in a single player RPG tho.
Definitely roleplay and also, and this is going to probably not go over well with those who this isn't an issue for, but PATIENCE or lack of it. I find that when I'm in a rush I don't enjoy sitting and listening to the dialog unfold. If I just relax and sit back and see how MY character moves the conversation then it becomes a blast, compelling and very hard to walk away from.
You've spent most of the part of your post introducing yourself, and then you ended with this weird definition of roleplaying. Assuming a role in a video game does not automatically mean you're roleplaying. Under your assumption, Far Cry 1 is roleplaying, since you're assuming a role of a guy who wants to shoot the whole island (or w/e was the story about), Civilization is roleplaying, since you're behaving as if you were an immortal leader of a nation, and so on.
Fortunately, roleplaying is defined by totally different features in video games, not by assuming a role, or watching a cut-scene. In such case all games would be roleplaying games, which isn't true obviously.
REALITY CHECK
Actually. thats exactly what it is. Lesser Role Playing.
The illusion of choice in games is either a step in the wrong direction or not a big enough step in the right direction. The world should have a story and then your character reacts to it and then the story reacts back. With this everything is scripted. The choices don't matter, you don't change or affect anything. With "regular" MMOs, they aren't pretending to give you choices that matter, instead, they are what they are. This game, and other games lie dragon age, mass effect, LA noire, etc just boil down to hundreds of pointless choices with only 3 or 4 choices that affect the plot. This concept applied to an MMO doesn't make it any better. I mean if people like that, great, but this is far from being innovative and clever.
He gave a pretty textbook definition of roleplaying, Thillian, you're the one who seems confused.
Actually, you are not roleplaying, and I am not speaking in ropleplaying in a LARP sense either, but story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into stats and (or) attributes. Either you are roleplaying, or you are not. Actually, roleplaying encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes (mostly outside of any game mechanic) in order to make their character their own –the mental process the player takes in constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. SWTOR takes a vast swath of this freedom, away from the player, while it shoves a 'heroic' and very rigid path down player's throats. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
With SWTOR's rigid emphasis on story, there is no easy way or in-game mechanic to allow the player freedom to create those background stories, personalities and personas of their characters. All of that information has already been decided for the player by the high and mighty BioWare writters, and the crappy thing is that every other character that chooses the same class, has the same 'heroic' story. Players are not able to create their own adventures in SWTOR, since if they attempt to deviate from the story, there is nothing there, being that the game was designed to be played in a very, very specific manner. Attempting to deviate from this path, the player is prohibited, nay punished, for doing so and trying to be creative or original.
Whole thread discussing this >>> http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/335919/page/1
I simply stated my background because your posts seemed to start with "people do not know what rp is" style.
Actually all video games that you actually become part of, play a part from gordon freeman to max payne you are playing that role which by simple definition is role play yes it is linear but it is still a role to play be that a freedom fighter or a hero, a villain or civillian.
That is the point it is all on your personal ability to make that leap, that empathy with your character, to see things from his or her point of view.
To change something from a "go here collect 10 shinies" to an actual decision and consequence for your character.
Taking your time, enjoing what bioware has done, using what is available instead of seeing everything as a limitation because it is you who limits yourself not the game.
Because some people care about the RPG in MMORPG, and some don't. That's why MMO's have carried on so long while having almost no RPG elements built into the questing/leveling content, aka 80% of what people do in the game. Some people don't care about RP at all, and the rest of us will play because we want to play in a persistant world.
And those that say 3 options aren't enough for an RPG are ruling out almost every RPG, single player or MMO, that has ever come out. Same goes for "actions with consequences", ala Witcher 2. Few RPG's have ever had that, and most that have, have portrayed those consequences as alternate cutscenes at the end of the game ala Fallout or Dragon Age. A nice touch, but hardly incentive to replay on it's own.
While all MMO's to date have only offered you AMAZING RP options like, "do the quest or don't", BW gives you quite a bit more. Zergomeisters won't like it, or anything else that slows down their grind to max level... but for those that play for the sake of (role)playing, it will in most cases be a plus.
Once again, Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal. The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that know can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
this is why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DPJKVzw2Mo&list=FL1-kewpx-vxyU9flnjy5BoQ&feature=mh_lolz
alex jones explains star wars:
george lucas says: It's an allegory for our times
Only in your limited idea of role-playing, a book is in no way roleplay because you have no choice within, you do not take part, in SWTOR you make decisions for your character, you role-play i am sorry you can not get that simple definition, I role play every character in swtor both out there doing quests, making decisions based on my characters ideals or hatreds on her personality or past, no less than taking a break in the cantina and interacting with others there for the same purpose.
It is by simple definition role-play
Nope.
The choices given to players through SWTOR's dialogue system are not real choices, they are the illusion of choice. Regardless of what choices you choose during those dialogues, the scenario will result in one of two ways, Light or Dark. Light, or Dark, which has already been stated repeatedly in many places, only affects the type of gear you get later on.
These choices have NO effect on the game world, and damn little effect on the character's story. Why is that? Because if the character can change the story, then they can effect change into the world (Eek, a Vritual World. Nooooo, I don't want to be Uncle Owen), and we can't have that now can we. It wouldn't be a themepark at that point.
Agree, gamebooks - Joe Dever - Lone Wolf series, those that gave you 2-4 options after each paragraph, are close to SWTOR, even though they were presenting you different options, they always lead to the same ending. It is roleplaying, however, a roleplaying of the lowest level.
REALITY CHECK
In the moment a choice matters to me it becomes important to me and i made an important choice in a game what means i made a choice that is important to me in a world that only exists as illusion of a more or less real world which gives it as much significance as any other choice in such a world.
Thank You!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
So, by your thought process, a whole genre of games that we refer to as JRPGs are not RPGs? Simply because the role is defined for us and the story plays out in narrative I can't roleplay the character?
I think this thread goes back to a statement made some weeks ago by one of the members here that because you can't climb a tree, TOR is not a roleplaying game.
Roleplayers roleplay within the confines of the system. Paper, boardgame, ccg, sandbox, themepark, ect. Those with the imgaination can do so with ease.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
(writing this on second screen while playing SWTOR)
Who said roleplay is only definded by world changing events, by city changing events or by end game content or by the walls imposed on a game.
I have the ability, sadly you do not seem to, to role play in a by your standards limited themepark of little choice and change, wooti for me, sad face for you
I have 3 primary roleplay chars on this game at the moment
My bountyhunter is treding a very fine line which is only justified by his work ethic, many uncomfortable personal decision and plots have played out for him at a personal level, that is valid roleplay I am sorry if you can not get that simple concept.
Your ability to roleplay in any situation even within the most rigid of worlds is a personal skill, roleplay is not defined by the world around you, only your ability to handle and imagination.
First thing I did when starting each character on SWTOR was to decide and define what motivates this char, what is his or her core values, soft and hard limits and every single quest and choice I make is based on how those characters have grown who they have become, it may not be your idea of rolepaly because by your standard it seems roleplay is not possible in SWTOR but it works and I see alot of people doing it,
Oh no, its definitely roleplaying.
Its just roleplaying the same sense that driving a bumper car in an amusement park is to Formula 1 racing.
I'm very happy for you, and I'm glad that you can roleplay in an extremely limited setting, but I think your missing the question, "Is that preferable to a more open system?" Also, I consider a game that doesn't allow a player or a group of players to effect a good deal of change (notice I didn't say 'total' change) into the world, to not be a good indicator of player freedom.
I never said these games couldn't be fun, and many SPRPGs are fun, but as I've said many times, simply completing quests to fufill a story isn't roleplaying. It's no different than reading a book or watching a movie. You might be watching it or reading it, but you have no participatory value in doing so. I feel that a MMO(RPG) in particular should allow players freedom to impart change into the world. For instance, if someone kills all the sheep, then there wouldn't be any more sheep. Why allow this? It should be allowed because player actions have conscequences, and it makes actions matter. The point being that some players would prevent this from the sheep from becoming exceedingly rare or even extinct. This is the same reason why people don't drive on the wrong side of the road, because there are conscequences to that action (i.e., you could be killed, total your vehicle, or god forbid kill someone else). Conscequence of action makes the world seem more real, and it isn't just a series of boring quests, that everyone will do in the course of completing the 'story'.
Also, what your doing with you characters by determing their motivations, core values and limits is roleplaying, and I congratulate you on that. However, any choice you could make within SWTOR based on it's limitations severely impedes the great roleplaying that you are doing with your characters. Your character might be light side motivated, but the series of quests you complete with that motivation don't effect any real change in the story of your character. Whereas if you were unbound in a more free system, they obviously would.
Indeed, my family is loving it.
There is so much to do in this game it's nuts. I don't even want rush to 50
For me it is simple:
Without a good story, there is no game. Without a story to keep me going, I quickly grow tired of the gaming hamster-wheel. As such, SWTOR has my attention... when the story is over, I'm done and on to the next.
Seems to me that a few people in this topic are arguing their style of roleplay being better than another, because they are failing horribly at defining what is roleplaying. I'm sorry, but any game that allows you to assume the role of another is roleplaying in my book. Even first person shooters have roleplaying elements, despite the different mechanics and presentation. Part of the charm of roleplaying games specifically over others is the depth of interaction with the game world, other players and the story as well as things like dice to determine outcomes, statistics that can be improved over time, avatars that evolve and become more powerful and more heroic in their storylines....etc.
I'm not a purist and by no means am I an elitist who thinks there is only one way to roleplay or that there is a best way to foster it with certain mechanics / content / style of the game world itself, and while I understand and respect the perspectives of people like Thillian and his friends, I do not condone their tone nor attitude that theirs is the one and only right way to roleplay and that games like TOR are no different than reading a book.