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Terraria Multiplayer why we will never have a thriving free-form sandbox mmo.

Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYMember Posts: 2,426 Uncommon

Today i was on some random dudes multiplayer server. I was the first to log in and this guy literally build a castle made of gold and red bricks with all these statues and really cool stuff.

I checked it out and went on my way to add to his little kingdom.

Twenty minutes later two more people logged in. 

They see the structure and immediately start breaking it apart for the gold bricks, statues, banner and all the other stuff and log off...

While a sandbox experience as a mmo sounds like an amazing thing on paper there is one fatal flaw.

People...

You can't have a complete free-form experince because people simply dont know how to act, they need to be directed like children, be punished for bad and rewarded for good.

 

You can't have a sandbox mmo without hard coded mechanics to curb peoples asshatery. And once you add in those mechanics a game is no longer a free form sandbox.

 

Playing:

Waiting on:

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Comments

  • YamotaYamota LondonMember Posts: 6,593 Uncommon

    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYMember Posts: 2,426 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

    Then its not a true free form experience. 

    People want a mmo with the freedom of minecraft or terraria.

    And people are the reason why we cant have one.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • poefuepoefue Glen Burnie, MDMember Posts: 226

    I just started playing Terraria and it is a awesome game.  Question about what you mentioned.  Can you carry what you acquire in multiplayer back over to single player mode?

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYMember Posts: 2,426 Uncommon

    Originally posted by poefue

    I just started playing Terraria and it is a awesome game.  Question about what you mentioned.  Can you carry what you acquire in multiplayer back over to single player mode?

    Yes.

    I play mutliplayer and we help new players with gear and materials. 

    Whatever you pick up in a multiplayer server can be used in any world type.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • poefuepoefue Glen Burnie, MDMember Posts: 226

    Good to know.  The game was very overwhelming for me at first, which was exciting.  I have not had that feeling in a long time in a game.

  • Cactus-ManCactus-Man The Ocean, NCMember Posts: 572

    That is one example, but I think there are a lot of mechanics that don't work on the massively multiplayer level due to the number of people and are best kept to single player or smaller multiplayer games where you could control who you play with.

    Then there are mechanics that have to be nerfed into the ground to be viable for a MMO, stuff like story, building things, destroying things, having an affect on the game world etc.

    All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember Posts: 14,247 Rare

    Originally posted by Z3R01


    Originally posted by Yamota


    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

    Then its not a true free form experience. 

    People want a mmo with the freedom of minecraft or terraria.

    And people are the reason why we cant have one.

    Another person who feels the baker must first create the universe otherwise they didn't truly bake a cake from scratch.

    Security levels and ownership rules still allow for freedom. In UO, a player can build his house piece by piece and have it still standing when he comes back. Sandbox doesn't mean lawlessness.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SkyProphetSkyProphet Compton, CAMember Posts: 12

    The fatal flaw is thinking this is what sandbox fans are asking for in a mmorpg.

     

     

    It's the virtual world.

     

    "It's the virtual world stupid"

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYMember Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Z3R01


    Originally posted by Yamota


    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

    Then its not a true free form experience. 

    People want a mmo with the freedom of minecraft or terraria.

    And people are the reason why we cant have one.

    Freedom to "do what you want" is not the same as "freedom from the consequences of doing it".

    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarMember Posts: 2,672 Uncommon
    Terraria is awesome! But then again I would never Eeeeeevee EEEEVER host the game publicly unless I can limit what other ppl cando. Why cuz i dont want ppl ruining my world.

    On another note, do we have a mmorpg.com dedicated terraria server? O.O

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  • Salio69Salio69 under a rock, FLMember Posts: 428 Common

    i have to agree with the op. when it comes to sandboxes, its not the game itself or the developers who ruin it, its the people. look at wakfu, they really tried going for sandbox theme, as sandboxy as it can get. you get to elect leaders who run your faction and they can set laws and taxes. one day my wife and i logged in to find you literally couldnt kill anything or DO ANYTHING without becomming an outlaw because of the laws some new governor set in. we just quit, you couldnt play, litterally. the game itself was actually fun but its theres no point in playing when someone can ruin the thing for you.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLMember Posts: 1,969 Uncommon

    Originally posted by WSIMike


    Originally posted by Z3R01



    Originally posted by Yamota


    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

    Then its not a true free form experience. 

    People want a mmo with the freedom of minecraft or terraria.

    And people are the reason why we cant have one.

    Freedom to "do what you want" is not the same as "freedom from the consequences of doing it".

    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    I agree with this.  I honestly don't enjoy sandbox games, but just because you can do whatever you want doesn't mean you can do it without consequences.  This is the argument I hear all the time in the U.S. about freedom of speach (heck we see it pop up on these forums as well).  "I can say whatever I want because of the 1st amendmant."  Too many seem to think this means you can say what you want anywhere anytime without any consequences.  That is just false, they can say whatever they want whenever they want and the federal government won't do anything (unless they are making threats of some kind) however, this doesn't mean that somebody else won't enforse a consequence (such as this website banning you, or any other site, or getting kicked out of a store, restaraunt, etc.).  Freedom to do what you want doesn't = freedom to do what you want with no consequences.

  • SkyProphetSkyProphet Compton, CAMember Posts: 12

    Originally posted by Salio69

    i have to agree with the op. when it comes to sandboxes, its not the game itself or the developers who ruin it, its the people. look at wakfu, they really tried going for sandbox theme, as sandboxy as it can get. you get to elect leaders who run your faction and they can set laws and taxes. one day my wife and i logged in to find you literally couldnt kill anything or DO ANYTHING without becomming an outlaw because of the laws some new governor set in. we just quit, you couldnt play, litterally. the game itself was actually fun but its theres no point in playing when someone can ruin the thing for you.

    The developers let you elect a king of a faction who could pass laws at his will making it impossible for you to do anything? This was coded into the game not player ran content totally?

    I have no idea why you blame sandbox gameplay, or other people for that. Only blame i see is for you thinking that it wouldnt happen if it was so easy, then quitting rather than doing something about it. It's a game. You had some other long-term goal more interesting than getting rid of a dictator? Isnt that part of the game?

    Im not following your train of thought i guess.

    "It's the virtual world stupid"

  • helthroshelthros Miami, FLMember Posts: 1,449 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Today i was on some random dudes multiplayer server. I was the first to log in and this guy literally build a castle made of gold and red bricks with all these statues and really cool stuff.
    I checked it out and went on my way to add to his little kingdom.
    Twenty minutes later two more people logged in. 
    They see the structure and immediately start breaking it apart for the gold bricks, statues, banner and all the other stuff and log off...
    While a sandbox experience as a mmo sounds like an amazing thing on paper there is one fatal flaw.
    People...
    You can't have a complete free-form experince because people simply dont know how to act, they need to be directed like children, be punished for bad and rewarded for good.
     
    You can't have a sandbox mmo without hard coded mechanics to curb peoples asshatery. And once you add in those mechanics a game is no longer a free form sandbox.
     

     

    This is exactly why Sandbox and FFA PvP tend to go hand in hand. In most sandbox games (Terraria doesn't really count), you would be able to turn around and kill the jive turkey that wronged you, getting your stuff back as well as whatever else he had. Viola, that's how sandboxes work.

  • xenogiasxenogias warsaw, INMember Posts: 1,926

    Originally posted by helthros


    Originally posted by Z3R01


    Today i was on some random dudes multiplayer server. I was the first to log in and this guy literally build a castle made of gold and red bricks with all these statues and really cool stuff.
    I checked it out and went on my way to add to his little kingdom.
    Twenty minutes later two more people logged in. 
    They see the structure and immediately start breaking it apart for the gold bricks, statues, banner and all the other stuff and log off...
    While a sandbox experience as a mmo sounds like an amazing thing on paper there is one fatal flaw.
    People...
    You can't have a complete free-form experince because people simply dont know how to act, they need to be directed like children, be punished for bad and rewarded for good.
     
    You can't have a sandbox mmo without hard coded mechanics to curb peoples asshatery. And once you add in those mechanics a game is no longer a free form sandbox.
     

     

    This is exactly why Sandbox and FFA PvP tend to go hand in hand. In most sandbox games (Terraria doesn't really count), you would be able to turn around and kill the jive turkey that wronged you, getting your stuff back as well as whatever else he had. Viola, that's how sandboxes work.

    Thats now FFA PvP sandboxes would work. They dont need to go hand in hand. Only people who want a FFA PVP sandbox would think you cant have one without the other. Personally I would love a ffa pvp sandbox but I also understand the two dont have to go togeather.

    The thing people just cant seem to understand is any game needs structure. There is no arguing that. The amount of structure (rulesets) in a game may be varried but they have to be there. For example one person could say "Well you HAVE to be able to kill pigs so you can eat in a sandbox MMO. If you dont eat you die.". The counter argument to that is as a sandbox I should be able to play how I want. I dont want to be bothered with eating. Both are sandbox ideals but but have a diffrent structure.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member Posts: 10,374 Rare

    Originally posted by helthros 
    This is exactly why Sandbox and FFA PvP tend to go hand in hand. In most sandbox games (Terraria doesn't really count), you would be able to turn around and kill the jive turkey that wronged you, getting your stuff back as well as whatever else he had. Viola, that's how sandboxes work.

    Terraria pretty clearly counts as a sandbox game.

    And as the other poster mentions, FFA PVP certainly doesn't have to be part of a sandbox game.

    Simply adding the capability to "lock" your structures in Terraria would solve this issue while stil letting the game be extremely freeform and sandboxy.  (Haven & Hearth worked like this.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • SkyProphetSkyProphet Compton, CAMember Posts: 12

    Instead of sandbox, use virtual world. Make sense now?

    "It's the virtual world stupid"

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLMember Posts: 1,288 Uncommon

    I guess that's why I like Minecraft better, there are ways to limit what people can do on your public server.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAMember Posts: 6,035 Uncommon

    There just needs to be rulesets per server, and because of the way Terr works w/ Player-Hosted ones, it's just in need of a host of ranks that can be applied to IDs. Anyone below Admin cannot build or destroy, but can adventure in another persons world. Then there just needs to be ways to seed your own dungeons accordingly.

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  • aleosaleos na, INMember Posts: 1,895 Uncommon

    you people do realize that a culture forms inside of a real sandbox MMO right? people start to gain a reputation with the people they surround themselves with. then organizations that protect other players are formed as well. There is always someone out there who wants to protect and there is always someone out there who wants to destroy. Those players tend to find themselves.  

    and its really not that hard to separate who can touch this and that, pick this up and put that down. so quit making it sound like its some type of anomaly thats never been done before.

  • gladosrev2gladosrev2 BialystokMember Posts: 203

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    While a sandbox experience as a mmo sounds like an amazing thing on paper there is one fatal flaw.

    People...
    You can't have a complete free-form experince because people simply dont know how to act, they need to be directed like children, be punished for bad and rewarded for good.

    Sounds like real world to me!

    And that is how it should be handled in a MMO sandbox. There will be raiders, obviously, so how did people handle this problem in the real world? They formed guilds, travelled in packs, hired guards, created a police force that hunts those who do crimes.. that's all, no need for some company, or 'god' to dictate some divine laws. That's how a sandbox can solve these issues, simply by giving you freedom.

    By a simple evolutionary process a mafia will form and a police force, a merchants guild and a thieves guild, trading caravans, and mercenaries.. no need to 'program' all of this if you have the freedom you need.

    There might need to be some minimal restrictions at least in the beginning, so that new players cant just 'mine your golden castle away' and  send the stuff to the main and delete the character. Obviously, but say NPC guards could witness the crime and give you a report who did it, so you can hunt the person down, either alone or using mercenaries or even the in game player police. The info could for example include not just a characters name since it can be a temp alt, but actual account ID number so you know who was responsible no matter what. And pople would think twice before they start robbing or killing if their account id will be revealed to their victims, who can send powerful guild forces after them to recover the loss.

    There are no flaws in a true sandbox game, only flaws are inherited from the real world or come from the incompletness of the game itself - when it does not give you enough freedom

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember Posts: 6,435 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Z3R01


    Originally posted by Yamota

    Sandbox does not mean anarchy. There can still be consequences for bad behaviour even though it is sandbox.

    Then its not a true free form experience. 

    People want a mmo with the freedom of minecraft or terraria.

    And people are the reason why we cant have one.

     

    Sandbox will never die, since all mmorpg are some part sandbox in ways. Some more than others, but they still all sandboxes. WoW is a sandbox of warcraft. It has more developer made contents, but still the freedom to do what I want when I want to.

    image

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebMember Posts: 5,444 Rare

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Today i was on some random dudes multiplayer server. I was the first to log in and this guy literally build a castle made of gold and red bricks with all these statues and really cool stuff.
    I checked it out and went on my way to add to his little kingdom.
    Twenty minutes later two more people logged in. 
    They see the structure and immediately start breaking it apart for the gold bricks, statues, banner and all the other stuff and log off...
    While a sandbox experience as a mmo sounds like an amazing thing on paper there is one fatal flaw.
    People...
    You can't have a complete free-form experince because people simply dont know how to act, they need to be directed like children, be punished for bad and rewarded for good.
     
    You can't have a sandbox mmo without hard coded mechanics to curb peoples asshatery. And once you add in those mechanics a game is no longer a free form sandbox.
     

    I have seen long interview with Raph Coster , exactly about this. And how Ultima Online started becomming less and less complex to prevent griefing.

    But I dont agree

    Why people dont tear appart expensive buildings in real world ?

    Because of LAW

    ...

    Sandbox games should have laws - enforced by NPCs

    Simple as that



  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghMember Posts: 5,001 Uncommon

     

    Sandbox games should have laws - enforced by NPCs - agreed, with some lawless areas as well.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • MetentsoMetentso BarcelonaMember Posts: 1,436 Uncommon

    No, wait, that's not totally people's fault. See... why this doesn't happen in RL? You see a castle and with a pick you start making a hole in the wall? No you don't because that would take forever and sooner or later someone will call the cops. It's the game's fault not people's. Devs dont' have to rely on people's good will because that's not going to happen, they have to give the good people that build tools to defend their buildings.

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