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I truly believe the MMORPG genre limits itself by being subscription based.

Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

I love the mmorpg genre but we can't deny that other than WoW the entire market is niche.

Every time I bring up a mmo around friends or gamers i meet its always the same thing.

"I don't want to pay a monthly fee to play a game".

Take a look around the net and you will find many gamers with that same opinion.

What if all of those P2p games went B2p? Its been proven gamers dont mind paying for a game box.

Imagine the untapped market of players that would come flocking too mmos if they only had to buy a game box and nothing else.

I strongly believe the mmorpg market is hurting itself by keeping with a payment model that (atleast in my opinion) the majority of the gaming community sees as taboo.

What do you guys think? Would going completely B2p (like GW) help or hurt the genre?

 

 

Playing:

Waiting on:

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Comments

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 OsloPosts: 180Member

    What does this even mean? "Would going completely B2p (like GW) help or hurt the genre?"

    That ALL MMORPG games is to become B2P (buy to play), or that any one MMORPG is to become B2P?

    The absolutist notion of all MMORPG's going B2P seem pointless.

    It seem obvious to me that the devs simply has to make a great game, and then they will get their money one way or another. An alternative view of mine, would be to speculate that B2P will have developers aiming for big cash grabs with their unwarranted hype having the climax at the time in which the game is released.

    I would argue that if developers make a crappy game and get rich, there seem to be no reason to believe they will bother to change their format, they could just split their workforce and, guess what, make another mediocre game to double their profits.

    I sort of worry that developers has no passion for making good games, and that they in general are simply in it for the predictable profit margins.

    Profit margin = profit x 100 for example

    If the profit margin were to be the prospective x10, they might not even bother to develop a game in the first place.

    WOW (10 days and quit) | EVE (1000 days and quit) | WOT(playing on and off) | LOTR (5 days and quit)

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    Originally posted by Gamer54321

    What does this even mean? "Would going completely B2p (like GW) help or hurt the genre?"

    That ALL MMORPG games is to become B2P (buy to play), or that any one MMORPG is to become B2P?

    The absolutist notion of all MMORPG's going B2P seem pointless.

    Gamers don't like the idea of paying a sub to one video game.

    Remove the sub and more people would come to the genre.

    Yay or Nay?

     

    My op in a nutshell.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 OsloPosts: 180Member

    I can agree to the notion of young people wanting to pay a one sum fee, however I seriously doubt the the MMO industry will improve by having more people playing it, unless one find it meaningful to conclude that TOO FEW people are playing it right now, but is that correct?

    I bet there must be 10 mil people playing MMO games at the very least, surely this ought to keep the industry going regardless, and even not being detrimental to deveopment leading up to what one would want to call a great MMO game.

    I wonder if a complication of B2P might perhaps be that people in general will want to play multiple MMO or MMORPG's, which seem unfortunate if one imagine such a situation (if this were to be plausible) leading to simpler MMORPG's.

    To be honest, I have difficulty in visualizing or conceptualizing how a "most-simple-MMORPG" game would look like, but I imagine that it will turn into something like Battlefield 3 which is a first person shooter game. If games become too simple or formulaic, I cannot believe that (sensible) people will want to play this.

    WOW (10 days and quit) | EVE (1000 days and quit) | WOT(playing on and off) | LOTR (5 days and quit)

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member

    Nay. Costly MMORPG's would still need subscriptions to generate atleast some profit.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    The question then becomes, would people still expect the same kind of quality, content, support and content updates of a 60+ million dollar game at B2P prices?

     

    Also, are you talking no micro transactions either?

     

    Also, people dont really seem to mind paying a sub just to access the internet and play online through a console (xbox live)

  • paterahpaterah ThessalonikiPosts: 578Member

    I think I have to agree. I visit other sites like PCgamer and RPS and everyone seems to hate MMOs and while sub fee is not the only reason, it certainly is one of them. On the other hand, I think it's extremely risky and requires the game to be set up and work in a certain way for B2P to be possible and at the same time not hinder your average player. I also have to disagree with the ones saying that B2P is not profitable for costly MMOs.

  • ManticorpsManticorps Houston, TXPosts: 40Member

    I vote Nay. While I think there is room for many types of payment models;I prefer to stick with subscription based with no microtransactions. There aren't many like that anymore though so I may just be out of luck.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    Originally posted by stealthbr

    Nay. Costly MMORPG's would still need subscriptions to generate atleast some profit.

    DLC/expansions? 

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,055Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    I love the mmorpg genre but we can't deny that other than WoW the entire market is niche.

    Every time I bring up a mmo around friends or gamers i meet its always the same thing.

    "I don't want to pay a monthly fee to play a game".

    Take a look around the net and you will find many gamers with that same opinion.

    What if all of those P2p games went B2p? Its been proven gamers dont mind paying for a game box.

    Imagine the untapped market of players that would come flocking too mmos if they only had to buy a game box and nothing else.

    I strongly believe the mmorpg market is hurting itself by keeping with a payment model that (atleast in my opinion) the majority of the gaming community sees as taboo.

    What do you guys think? Would going completely B2p (like GW) help or hurt the genre?

     

     

    I know many gamers.

    And of them only one except me is willing to pay subscription , or any reacuring cost for games they buy.

     

    Problem is , people dont understand that subscription gaming is niche. They always look at WOW and cite is as example.

    But it is not.

    WOW is exception to the rule. A fad, trend. Something that happened once, when the circumstances were right, and will most likely never happen again.

     

    image

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    I don't think a vote is necessary. It's pretty much a given that more people would play if there is no sub fee. I think they should at least drop the standard sub fee to $5 a month maybe $7 based on how the costs of maintenance etc have gone down. That or a cosmetic cash shop.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    It's not even about the amount of money.  Whether it's $15 a month, or just $1 a month, a lot of gamers don't like the feel that they're only renting a game, renting thier character, their progress in the game, etc.  I think that's one major reason subscriptions are so unpopular.  It's not just that people are being cheap - they won't hesitate to shell out $50-60 for a game.  They just want to own it, once they do.

     

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    THis is how I would imagine a mmo working as a B2p.

     

    Game releases. 

    Gamebox/client - 40-60 bucks

    Bi monthly Content packs (DLC) 5-10 bucks

    Bi yearly Expansions 20-30 bucks

     

    Give the illusion that all the extra content is optional when in reality if you really love the game you will sell out the cash (just like they do with Sp games DLC).

    Doing this will reduce one of the biggest issues mmorpgs have, Subscriber retention. 

    Think about those mmorpgs you paid for, how many of them would you have revisitied if you didnt have to resub to check out to see how they changed/improved?

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • RenoakuRenoaku Posts: 1,005Member Uncommon

    I honestly dont mind paying a Subscription fee for a MMORPG, although my problem with Subscription based games are when a company like Blizard, or NC Soft gets greedy. For example Blizzard wanted to charge extra for a simple API/Mobile Auction House App, and NC Soft got greedy with Aion and started charging for every character customization a person wanted to change any little detail about their character they get slapped with a $10 Fee I dont care about their little Give away things either for one free change I want FREEDOM OF Play.

    Another Very bad company that I really do not like is PWE, or PWI Perfect World International, as they are a very bad company at being F2P, and setting up a cash shop. They charge you for every little customization for your character as well so for example in the original perfect world, you get a set of blue armor, and want to change your hair to blue for example or black or whatever they charge you for that each and every single time I Hate it Restricts my freedom of play, and they do this across all their games.

    Not only this but MMORPG F2P titles that You spend $16 for a whole costume set on like in PWE/PWI's title forsaken world, you get tired of that costume,  but you can't simply give it away or trade it to another person, or hand it to an alternate character of yours and change it out instead you loose that money you put into the game, and it isn't worth playing.

    Also PWE/PWI are quite confusing about Zen Exchanges you buy Zen but have to exchange their currency across each game you play when it should be an all in one deal instead of doing the confusing exchange rate.

    I do support the F2P Genere of games, but I will not support any F2P games that ask for way too much and bind me on a leash as a player of their game Free 2 Play or not. I want freedom to customize my character, I will willingly pay for any costumes, extra hairs, or unlocks that are designed as long as I can change them any time I please across all my characters on my same account/server, or as long as they do not cost an arm and a leg to buy for my characters I am playing on I do not mind spending some money.

    I would also support a system similar to APB's/ Real Time Worlds when they allowed players to trade RTW Points for in game items aka real money to be used in the game I actually liked the system, and support RMT as long as the money is obtained legally and not by bots or illegal account hacking and such.

    http://fw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=297611 This is an example of supporters of a game company that doesn't care about customization and the reason why certain gamers who like to play their way get left out in a lot of F2P games except those like Runes OF Magic, DCUO, and P2P games that don't get greedy.

    I mean seriously I respect other peoples Opinions abotu F2P cash shops, but Forsaken World, and PWI is nothing but Trolls, and people who do not understand customization at all and think that their games that have good visuals are worth playing without respecting or even giving any concern or question to the original post there, instead they make comments like go play Barbie, or Hello kitty, Doesn't seem like the community anyone would want to play in.

    I really think that these companies make way more than enough moeny to give us character customizations and make our game a bit more fun giving us actual content from the cash shop worth paying for for our money spent but are just way to greedy, and I will not give a game a good raiting, or play any F2P game evne if it is free or not that doesn't have a good cash shop, and give people the freedom to customize their character, as well as give people actually what they buy for their buck without the leash of telling people its Bind on Equip and all that other stuff. Honestly I don't care if the graphics are the best in the game, or how much work the developer has put into the game either, to me if it lacks customization, and doesn't give players the freedom and choice to play it isn't worth playing, so it would really have to be something Very high tech, and very next gen before I would actually play a F2P game that supported greed/leash thing which I have yet to see from a F2P game.

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 OsloPosts: 180Member

    A subset of the "hype and cash in" problem I suggested earlier, it what seem to be the fact that developers will have the initiative to cash in on everything they do leaving most players to react and suck it up, even with a DLC.

    How has DLC content/update worked until now?!

    Do some MMO's "break" when a new DLC is introduced? (Effectively obligatory payment, could be camouflaged as monthly payment but with a bigger price.). If they have not until now, maybe they , or some, will in the future perhaps.

    WOW (10 days and quit) | EVE (1000 days and quit) | WOT(playing on and off) | LOTR (5 days and quit)

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    THis is how I would imagine a mmo working as a B2p.

     

    Game releases. 

    Gamebox/client - 40-60 bucks

    Bi monthly Content packs (DLC) 5-10 bucks

    Bi yearly Expansions 20-30 bucks

     

    Give the illusion that all the extra content is optional when in reality if you really love the game you will sell out the cash (just like they do with Sp games DLC).

    Doing this will reduce one of the biggest issues mmorpgs have, Subscriber retention. 

    Think about those mmorpgs you paid for, how many of them would you have revisitied if you didnt have to resub to check out to see how they changed/improved?

    i do feel your point....not a bad one i might add for MMO's.

    As for single player games i realy cant put money in it......example:

    Dirt 3 has soo many downloadable content i feel i just bought a half game for the price of a normal one.....i pay'd about 40€ for that game and half the special tracks and cars can only be unlocked with real money......sorry but i realy refuse to pay anything more to those thieves.......if they would have sold this game for 20€ i wouldnt mind putting another 20 into the game for content......but not paying 80+ euro's to have a complete single player game...sorry.

    specialy EA and SOE are ALL about the cash......pay double and get half......f*** that :(

    image
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    B2P is fine, the issue is that you need money to maintain servers, bandwidth, CSRs etc and without sub. fees the initial box sale wont be able to cover those costs for long.

    F2P is a terrible "evolution" of the genre as it fundamentally changes how you play the game and how the world works. It shifts from "you get what you accomplish", i.e. equipment from defeating a raid boss or money from being a good crafter, to "you get what yoy pay for in RL money". And that is altogether bad as it promotes Pay to Win rather than Play to Win.

    That it would bring more people playing MMORPGs I dont see how that is good for me as a customer. For the devs and their wallets, sure, but for us existing customers, no. Not like there is a shortage of MMORPG gamers.

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    It's not even about the amount of money.  Whether it's $15 a month, or just $1 a month, a lot of gamers don't like the feel that they're only renting a game, renting thier character, their progress in the game, etc.  I think that's one major reason subscriptions are so unpopular.  It's not just that people are being cheap - they won't hesitate to shell out $50-60 for a game.  They just want to own it, once they do.

     

    That would not change with a B2P game.   The company would still own the servers the characters are stored on and their only incentive for maintaining access is to get future income from the players.    For P2P that's subscriptions and for B2P it's DLC and expansions.  If a B2P company decides that supporting an old game is not profitable anymore, they will pull the plug on your characters.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon

    VAST majority of MMOs are free to play. What is this thread about again...?

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    your average gamer would be horrified to know they must pay 15 bucks each month to play a game they already paid for, b2p is the future and the genre will be more successful for it. These games are really not worth the subscription fees they ask for.

    If i can play a quality polished title like guild wars 2 for free, why in my right mind would i pay to play an inferior product like most subscription based mmo's.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    If the (rather incredibly low hourly rate, compared to other forms of entertainment) of a subscription bothers you, you should probably cancel your cable--it costs considerably more--and your phone.  Possibly your ISP.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    If the (rather incredibly low hourly rate, compared to other forms of entertainment) of a subscription bothers you, you should probably cancel your cable--it costs considerably more--and your phone.  Possibly your ISP.

    cable is a waste of money these days when you can watch everything online.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    If the (rather incredibly low hourly rate, compared to other forms of entertainment) of a subscription bothers you, you should probably cancel your cable--it costs considerably more--and your phone.  Possibly your ISP.

    if   i were to offer you  a choice between free cable or subscription based cable and both were legal, which one would you choose?

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,249Member Uncommon

    Sure, it limits the genre.

    Then again, charging $60 for a game limits the VG genre as a whole.

    I think many of us forget the origins of the current model, or weren't around when they were originally developed.

    Remember America Online?  Once upon a time, you paid 10 bucks for 5 hours, then 3 dollars an hour just to use the internet.  On dialup.  I remember paying almost $200 one month, until local dialup ISP's became available.  And for a while, they used similar, but cheaper pricing models.

    The first MMO's came about during this time.  In determining a pricing model for their game, they knew that to tack on an additional fee per hour was marketing(and game) suicide, and the message boards(such as they were) certainly reflected that.  It might make more money, but it would do it with far less players who would feel rushed to get things done; in short, it would destroy the community.

    Also back then, there really wasn't a widely trusted internet transaction infrastructure back then that could support a microtransaction based model.  Paypal was around, but it was tiny, and nowhere as secure as it is now.

    So they went with a flat rate.  And as the internet became faster/cheaper, competition kept the monthly fee down to about the same level. 

    Now, since they have about as many people as they're ever going to get with a flat rate, they have to come up with an alternative pricing model in order to keep growing, while keeping a "value-added" feature set for their subbed players.  As more and more MMO's offer more and more pricing options, they'll pretty much all have to follow suit to compete.  WoW, always the exception, will probably be one of the last to do this, but it WILL happen, eventually.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    My bill for HBO provides more content and entertainment for less money. If they are going to provide entertainment as a service their price needs to be competitive.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    if   i were to offer you  a choice between free cable or subscription based cable and both were legal, which one would you choose?

    The one that was credible, of course.

    There's a very small difference between plausible and credible--but small differences can be crucial.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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