After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
It is. Just two examples compared to WOW:
1) Ogrimmar seems a lot more alive than any space ports i have been to in TOR. It is not just the players, but patrolling NPCs, airships arriving and departing, wyverns flying around ... little touches and have nothing to do with the game mechanics but these things make the scenary looks alive.
2) Battle fronts. WOW does this very well. Hyjal mountain, Moltern Front, Twightlight highland (and many other places) have ongoing conflicts and NPCs will fight each other. You will feel that the battle is really on because of the fighting. While i know much of this is scripted, and prob on a loop, it feels something is happing. Not so in TOR. All the battle front are also static will the NPCs standing doing nothing on both sides.
4. The instancing thing is so blown out of proportion. There are very few zones in any MMO that have over 200 people in them. Its just the zones are somewhat large so they get spread out.
you don't need 200. But TOR does not even have like 10 congregating around in an area. Orgrimmar feels alive because there are always a bunch of players in front of the auction house. Once it passes 10 or 15, it feels like a crowd.
Only after playing SWTOR I understood how brilliant idea it was from Blizzard to add the girl and boy who stole her doll in Stormwind. Little things like that made cities and villages in Azeroth feel alive, whereas in SWTOR all friendly areas feel dead.
Exactly. So people should STOP trying to say that SWTOR's world should be more like Skyrim's.
As soon as someone starts sayuing anything about Skyrim's world, people immediately admit that SWTOR's "bland, static world" is that way because it's an MMORPG, and that comparing an MMO world to a SPRPG's world is silly.
So why are they doing it then?
(by the way, I have seen mobs on Taris wandering and fighting each other, but's that's besides the point)
Problem is if you say that, then you're just making up excuses for lazy devs...
Did YOU ever chase Degeerin around the village in SWG?? There's a really good reason that quest mobs are static.
There was like 4 of us in my guild trying to catch him one day to turn in. The cursing on vent was hilarious.
Maybe when the quests ends they should just teleport you in front of the quest giver. Don't laugh...it's bound to happen.
Originally posted by JeroKane Totally agree. After having played games like LOTRO and AoC (yes even WoW wasn't this static) the world design of SW:TOR is a sheer dissapointment.
For once, after having this issue in several other games, I find the swtor world alive. Nothing exceptional, but good enough.
I find the swtor world more alive than lotro. I see more NPCs walking around and doing things in swtor.
AOC has the most alive cities of all though.
Compared to the many complaints of lifeless worlds I had in other games (like Vanguard with its dead cities and souless world), I don't have this problem with swtor.
Of course I find that many NPCs activity sounds are missing (I hope they'll fix this). And it could always be better. But that's it.
I tend to agree with some of what the OP has to say . The mobs do need to move around more etc but generally speaking I having a blast in this game .
These should be releativly easy to put right I would think . Its not a deal breaker for me .
I think too many people expect perfection from day one . Thats not happened in any mmo ever . This is far better than most and I think most of the people bigging up Guild Wars 2 will probably be tearing it to threads later this year when its released because its not exactly what they want .
Maybe when the quests ends they should just teleport you in front of the quest giver. Don't laugh...it's bound to happen.
Many WOW quests have automatic completion (you can click a pop up button to finish the quest) so you don't have to track back to where quest givers are.
That is a GOOD thing. Backtracking to places already been to is NOT fun. Games should not be work.
Even Skyrim has fast travel so you dont have to run all the way back to turn in quests.
BTW, i have no problem making quest givers static so people don't have to be frustrated finding them. However, it is easy to make the place lively by animating OTHER NPCs.
Sorry to throw a little GW2 in here, but here's a couple blogs covering conversations you'll overhear in towns and the ambient sounds that will be in GW2... sounds like Bioware should have taken a similar approach based on complaints.
2) Battle fronts. WOW does this very well. Hyjal mountain, Moltern Front, Twightlight highland (and many other places) have ongoing conflicts and NPCs will fight each other. You will feel that the battle is really on because of the fighting. While i know much of this is scripted, and prob on a loop, it feels something is happing. Not so in TOR. All the battle front are also static will the NPCs standing doing nothing on both sides.
Oh god this pissed me off so badly in SWTOR. The first planet you arrive on with a republic character (Coruscant I think?) and the one after (the jungle planet) have several scenarios where 5 static friendly guards are shooting at 5 hostile creatures/robbers. Here's the kicker: They do 1DPS. Literally. You can stand there for 5 minutes and barely see either side's healthbar move an inch. There's a quest on the jungleplanet too that requires you to aid a stranded crew. One of the NPCs carries a huge Gatling Gun, and he does 0 damage with it. 0. There is no sense of war or fighting here. In fact, when I killed the hostile NPCs, the portable barriers they were behind didnt despawn. They just remained, waiting for the hostile NPCs to respawn. And the friendly guards? They kept firing. At nothing. Just firing into the air with their guns, until eventually the hostiles respawned and it simulated a battle again. Remember RIFT, the last generic MMO that was released? It had invasions. If a fire invasion encountered a life invasion, they would battle. If stuff got near guard NPCs, those guards would defend themselves and fight for the town. If they lost, the town was taken over by the invasion. The implementation was basic, but made the world feel in conflict. It was a simple mechanic but it worked surprisingly well at making it all feel natural and fun.
This is such a terrible immersion killer for me. And Bioware always does this crap, even in their single player games. In Dragon Age, if you walked into a room where 2 sides were fighting, when you entered the fray, both sides still had full health. It gives the player the idea that if you're not there, nothing changes. It's shitty design.
And the static world is a total buzzkill for me. I can walk around in the Republic Fleet and see noone at all, despite there being a heavy server population and plenty of general chat. Everyones tucked away in their own little instance. The NPCs barely move at all and nothing changes. Is there a dude that wants to get off the planet but can't because evil bandits kidnapped his son? Save the son, and he'll still be standing there going "My son went ahead, we'll be leaving soon". Doesn't move one inch. They're all dead. There's a creepie wookie there that I could've sworn was just standing dead, except he was breathing every now and then causing minor animation movements.
It's worse in the wilderness though. Most of the areas, they made 2-3 spawn groups. One group has 5-6 regular mobs, one has 2 regular mobs and 1 tough mob, and the third group is usually an elite mob that stands near a quest objective. They copy/paste these 3 groups all over the place, and there they stand, doing nothing, just waiting to be cut down. If you don't have stealth, you're cutting down the exact same group in the exact same spot twice, once as you move to the objective, once as you move back to the questgiver.
There's no birds chirping, no droids patrolling and killing things, no rebels ransacking everything. It's just dead.
It's one of the reasons I am started to really loathe the game every time I log in. It's just not a world that feels alive.
Anyway, another rant so take it for what it is. I never rant on MMOs but this one just frustrates me to no end. One of my favorite game developers making a game in my favorite genre with a great license. I want them to take my money but it's like they're doing everything they can to turn me off of their game
2) Battle fronts. WOW does this very well. Hyjal mountain, Moltern Front, Twightlight highland (and many other places) have ongoing conflicts and NPCs will fight each other. You will feel that the battle is really on because of the fighting. While i know much of this is scripted, and prob on a loop, it feels something is happing. Not so in TOR. All the battle front are also static will the NPCs standing doing nothing on both sides.
Oh god this pissed me off so badly in SWTOR. The first planet you arrive on with a republic character (Coruscant I think?) and the one after (the jungle planet) have several scenarios where 5 static friendly guards are shooting at 5 hostile creatures/robbers. Here's the kicker: They do 1DPS. Literally. You can stand there for 5 minutes and barely see either side's healthbar move an inch. There's a quest on the jungleplanet too that requires you to aid a stranded crew. One of the NPCs carries a huge Gatling Gun, and he does 0 damage with it. 0. There is no sense of war or fighting here. In fact, when I killed the hostile NPCs, the portable barriers they were behind didnt despawn. They just remained, waiting for the hostile NPCs to respawn. And the friendly guards? They kept firing. At nothing. Just firing into the air with their guns, until eventually the hostiles respawned and it simulated a battle again. Remember RIFT, the last generic MMO that was released? It had invasions. If a fire invasion encountered a life invasion, they would battle. If stuff got near guard NPCs, those guards would defend themselves and fight for the town. If they lost, the town was taken over by the invasion. The implementation was basic, but made the world feel in conflict. It was a simple mechanic but it worked surprisingly well at making it all feel natural and fun.
This is such a terrible immersion killer for me. And Bioware always does this crap, even in their single player games. In Dragon Age, if you walked into a room where 2 sides were fighting, when you entered the fray, both sides still had full health. It gives the player the idea that if you're not there, nothing changes. It's shitty design.
And the static world is a total buzzkill for me. I can walk around in the Republic Fleet and see noone at all, despite there being a heavy server population and plenty of general chat. Everyones tucked away in their own little instance. The NPCs barely move at all and nothing changes. Is there a dude that wants to get off the planet but can't because evil bandits kidnapped his son? Save the son, and he'll still be standing there going "My son went ahead, we'll be leaving soon". Doesn't move one inch. They're all dead. There's a creepie wookie there that I could've sworn was just standing dead, except he was breathing every now and then causing minor animation movements.
It's worse in the wilderness though. Most of the areas, they made 2-3 spawn groups. One group has 5-6 regular mobs, one has 2 regular mobs and 1 tough mob, and the third group is usually an elite mob that stands near a quest objective. They copy/paste these 3 groups all over the place, and there they stand, doing nothing, just waiting to be cut down. If you don't have stealth, you're cutting down the exact same group in the exact same spot twice, once as you move to the objective, once as you move back to the questgiver.
There's no birds chirping, no droids patrolling and killing things, no rebels ransacking everything. It's just dead.
It's one of the reasons I am started to really loathe the game every time I log in. It's just not a world that feels alive.
Anyway, another rant so take it for what it is. I never rant on MMOs but this one just frustrates me to no end. One of my favorite game developers making a game in my favorite genre with a great license. I want them to take my money but it's like they're doing everything they can to turn me off of their game
Yep, I remember some of this on Taris. Planet was the worst linear, lifeless, most poorly created place I have ever came across in any game - ever. I do not know what Bioware was thinking. I know what I was thinking - is this a joke?
Umm to someone that disagrees may you please download fraps or an in game recording program and tape it for us.
I could easily post something to show that upcoming mmorpgs are fixing this issue but then it'd cause problems unless you really want to see it an think I'm lying.
But yea this was a big issue because when I tried the beta I've tried an mmorpg(read my history if you want) it just gets really noticable, and a pain.
I played and have Skyrim but that's a single player game so it's understandable and shouldn't be compared.
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P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
EQ was better too...guards would actually kill monsters and could even be killed by players!
That aside though, the poster who gave the Rift example commented that BW typically does this "static" crap in their SP games too. And well, I think it's a lot more acceptable to do that in an SP game than it is in an MMORPG.
SPRPGs can be completely player centric. The entire experience can be based around the player and it works because the player is the only intelligent lifeform in the world. So having static world stuff in SPRPGs usually isn't a huge deal. Note that you CAN have an SPRPG with more of a world focus (Skyrim), but it's not necessary.
But MMORPGs? They have to have a fairly major focus on the world. The entire purpose of an MMORPG is to play with others in a persistent world. If the world isn't believable, then it hurts the game.
So I basically think BW did what they always do, but it just doesn't work well in an MMORPG.
I don't understand how this game cost so much to make, games that cost millions of dollars less have better world design. seems to me they cut one too many corners, its 2012 for god sake but it seems we are going backwards and not forwards.
If it was just how much money something cost that matters then Waterworld and Speed 2 would be great movies...
Bioware had a huge team for 7 years, + all voice actors. I read that if one guy would have written all the story it would have taken him 65 years with minimal sleep and working the rest of the time.
Yeah , they've just concentrated too much on full VO and cutscenes. That much VO and cutscenes cost alot of money ,time and effort.
So yeah many other things in Swtor are just weak.
Swtor would be MUCH better if full VO was only applied to class quests and other quests had either quiet text dialogues or even dreaded text walls and they would spend money & time ALSO on other things like well world? making engine better ,etc
BUT
world also feel so lifeless cause of very heavy instancing...
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Do it.
And if Teala does do it will you be open minded about it, or will you put blinders on and say its a lie?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I don't understand how this game cost so much to make, games that cost millions of dollars less have better world design. seems to me they cut one too many corners, its 2012 for god sake but it seems we are going backwards and not forwards.
If it was just how much money something cost that matters then Waterworld and Speed 2 would be great movies...
Bioware had a huge team for 7 years, + all voice actors. I read that if one guy would have written all the story it would have taken him 65 years with minimal sleep and working the rest of the time.
Yeah , they've just concentrated too much on full VO and cutscenes. That much VO and cutscenes cost alot of money ,time and effort.
So yeah many other things in Swtor are just weak.
Swtor would be MUCH better if full VO was only applied to class quests and other quests had either quiet text dialogues or even dreaded text walls and they would spend money & time ALSO on other things like well world? making engine better ,etc
BUT
world also feel so lifeless cause of very heavy instancing...
It's like the Michael Bay effect. SWTOR's biggest strength is VO...which is kind of like special effects. It's cool, neat, impressive, but lacks any depth or staying power.
I also think that having too much VO can be a bad thing. VO used to be a great spotlighting mechanism. When a really important conversation was happening, there would be VO, but for everything else it would be text. It immediately let the player know that this was important, and often left a memorable impression.
When you do it too much though, VO just becomes common-place, expected. And I found myself skipping the VO for my class quest as often as I skipped it when rancher Bob asked me to get back his lost gravel maggots. I STILL remember Jon Irenicus going on a rampage at the beginning of Baldur's Gate 2...but I hardly remember anything from Mass Effect.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Sorry... those game are just as lifeless and dull.
NPC's standing around doing nothing. If they are talking it's on a loop.
Same NPC's fighting in the same area everyday. To the extent that they are used a directions! "go to where this guy and that guy are fighting and hook a left and youll see it"
My personal favorite - NPC's are fighting at the edge of town... the guard kills the mob, sheathes his sword and walks away... and 30 seconds later... THE MOBS TWIN COMES FOR VENGEANCE!!!!!
maybe im a bit harder to "immerse" than most of you... but i kind of never forget that im playing a game and it aint real! i dont expect the little digital characters to do something amazing just cause i decide to stand around for 20 minutes watching them as i E-RP. theyre meant to be background... thats all they are. put too much thought into it and you get what we have here. lol.
My point is this - you call it an immersion killer. whatever. ...but with all the issues that TOR has... NPC's that are less than "dynamic" really are the least of their concerns. and honestly... to pick THIS as something to bitch about... something that is present in damn near EVERY MMO out now... well now youre just try to find new ways of beating a dead horse.
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Do it.
And if Teala does do it will you be open minded about it, or will you put blinders on and say its a lie?
I'll wait for a fanboy to post a counter-video first, but yes I'll be open minded :P You never let someone provide both sides to the argument.. lol
Yep, I remember some of this on Taris. Planet was the worst linear, lifeless, most poorly created place I have ever came across in any game - ever. I do not know what Bioware was thinking. I know what I was thinking - is this a joke?
You can't be serious, Taris is one of the nicest and most interestingly designed places I have seen in mmos. I love it.
Yep, I remember some of this on Taris. Planet was the worst linear, lifeless, most poorly created place I have ever came across in any game - ever. I do not know what Bioware was thinking. I know what I was thinking - is this a joke?
You can't be serious, Taris is one of the nicest and most interestingly designed places I have seen in mmos. I love it.
I liked the Mirror's Edge platforming bullshit I had to do to get my datacrons.. Lol
I'm serious, I DID like it. WoW has nothing comparable. Closest thing is Rift's puzzles for loot.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have done an excellent job creating what feels like a living world through ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, npc and mob scripted pathing / events, lots of creatures running around, etc.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Sorry... those game are just as lifeless and dull.
NPC's standing around doing nothing. If they are talking it's on a loop.
Same NPC's fighting in the same area everyday. To the extent that they are used a directions! "go to where this guy and that guy are fighting and hook a left and youll see it"
My personal favorite - NPC's are fighting at the edge of town... the guard kills the mob, sheathes his sword and walks away... and 30 seconds later... THE MOBS TWIN COMES FOR VENGEANCE!!!!!
maybe im a bit harder to "immerse" than most of you... but i kind of never forget that im playing a game and it aint real! i dont expect the little digital characters to do something amazing just cause i decide to stand around for 20 minutes watching them as i E-RP. theyre meant to be background... thats all they are. put too much thought into it and you get what we have here. lol.
My point is this - you call it an immersion killer. whatever. ...but with all the issues that TOR has... NPC's that are less than "dynamic" really are the least of their concerns. and honestly... to pick THIS as something to bitch about... something that is present in damn near EVERY MMO out now... well now youre just try to find new ways of beating a dead horse.
Nobody is beating a dead horse. Players of MMO'RPG's expect to see at least some attempt from the developer to not make a world seem lifeless and dead. Even Rift with its poorly animated critters attempted to add some life to their world, SWTOR has zero. Show me one bug, one bird, a snake...fish in the water(oh that's right - SWTOR doesn't ahve anything but wading pools!). Stop trying to spin this. This is one of the biggest on going complaints of players from the game - the lifeless, dead worlds. You can try to deny it, spin it, sprinkle it with gum drops and have prancing unicorns - it doesn't change the way the game worlds are - dead.
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Vanguard? LOL.
Your posts are usually very interesting to read, but I'm sorry, this is pure nonsense. The Vanguard lifeless world and DEAD cities was the 1st reason I left this game (combat and poor character animations being the 2nd).
The 3 other games, ok we can talk, but Vanguard? No way.
Comments
It is. Just two examples compared to WOW:
1) Ogrimmar seems a lot more alive than any space ports i have been to in TOR. It is not just the players, but patrolling NPCs, airships arriving and departing, wyverns flying around ... little touches and have nothing to do with the game mechanics but these things make the scenary looks alive.
2) Battle fronts. WOW does this very well. Hyjal mountain, Moltern Front, Twightlight highland (and many other places) have ongoing conflicts and NPCs will fight each other. You will feel that the battle is really on because of the fighting. While i know much of this is scripted, and prob on a loop, it feels something is happing. Not so in TOR. All the battle front are also static will the NPCs standing doing nothing on both sides.
you don't need 200. But TOR does not even have like 10 congregating around in an area. Orgrimmar feels alive because there are always a bunch of players in front of the auction house. Once it passes 10 or 15, it feels like a crowd.
Only after playing SWTOR I understood how brilliant idea it was from Blizzard to add the girl and boy who stole her doll in Stormwind. Little things like that made cities and villages in Azeroth feel alive, whereas in SWTOR all friendly areas feel dead.
Maybe when the quests ends they should just teleport you in front of the quest giver. Don't laugh...it's bound to happen.
For once, after having this issue in several other games, I find the swtor world alive. Nothing exceptional, but good enough.
I find the swtor world more alive than lotro. I see more NPCs walking around and doing things in swtor.
AOC has the most alive cities of all though.
Compared to the many complaints of lifeless worlds I had in other games (like Vanguard with its dead cities and souless world), I don't have this problem with swtor.
Of course I find that many NPCs activity sounds are missing (I hope they'll fix this). And it could always be better. But that's it.
I tend to agree with some of what the OP has to say . The mobs do need to move around more etc but generally speaking I having a blast in this game .
These should be releativly easy to put right I would think . Its not a deal breaker for me .
I think too many people expect perfection from day one . Thats not happened in any mmo ever . This is far better than most and I think most of the people bigging up Guild Wars 2 will probably be tearing it to threads later this year when its released because its not exactly what they want .
Many WOW quests have automatic completion (you can click a pop up button to finish the quest) so you don't have to track back to where quest givers are.
That is a GOOD thing. Backtracking to places already been to is NOT fun. Games should not be work.
Even Skyrim has fast travel so you dont have to run all the way back to turn in quests.
BTW, i have no problem making quest givers static so people don't have to be frustrated finding them. However, it is easy to make the place lively by animating OTHER NPCs.
Sorry to throw a little GW2 in here, but here's a couple blogs covering conversations you'll overhear in towns and the ambient sounds that will be in GW2... sounds like Bioware should have taken a similar approach based on complaints.
http://www.arena.net/blog/talking-heads-vo-and-dialogue-in-gw2#more-2859
http://www.arena.net/blog/against-the-wall-humanity-in-guild-wars-2#more-4220
Again, apologies if it's considered intrusive, but you have to admit you like what you hear here.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Oh god this pissed me off so badly in SWTOR. The first planet you arrive on with a republic character (Coruscant I think?) and the one after (the jungle planet) have several scenarios where 5 static friendly guards are shooting at 5 hostile creatures/robbers. Here's the kicker: They do 1DPS. Literally. You can stand there for 5 minutes and barely see either side's healthbar move an inch. There's a quest on the jungleplanet too that requires you to aid a stranded crew. One of the NPCs carries a huge Gatling Gun, and he does 0 damage with it. 0. There is no sense of war or fighting here. In fact, when I killed the hostile NPCs, the portable barriers they were behind didnt despawn. They just remained, waiting for the hostile NPCs to respawn. And the friendly guards? They kept firing. At nothing. Just firing into the air with their guns, until eventually the hostiles respawned and it simulated a battle again. Remember RIFT, the last generic MMO that was released? It had invasions. If a fire invasion encountered a life invasion, they would battle. If stuff got near guard NPCs, those guards would defend themselves and fight for the town. If they lost, the town was taken over by the invasion. The implementation was basic, but made the world feel in conflict. It was a simple mechanic but it worked surprisingly well at making it all feel natural and fun.
This is such a terrible immersion killer for me. And Bioware always does this crap, even in their single player games. In Dragon Age, if you walked into a room where 2 sides were fighting, when you entered the fray, both sides still had full health. It gives the player the idea that if you're not there, nothing changes. It's shitty design.
And the static world is a total buzzkill for me. I can walk around in the Republic Fleet and see noone at all, despite there being a heavy server population and plenty of general chat. Everyones tucked away in their own little instance. The NPCs barely move at all and nothing changes. Is there a dude that wants to get off the planet but can't because evil bandits kidnapped his son? Save the son, and he'll still be standing there going "My son went ahead, we'll be leaving soon". Doesn't move one inch. They're all dead. There's a creepie wookie there that I could've sworn was just standing dead, except he was breathing every now and then causing minor animation movements.
It's worse in the wilderness though. Most of the areas, they made 2-3 spawn groups. One group has 5-6 regular mobs, one has 2 regular mobs and 1 tough mob, and the third group is usually an elite mob that stands near a quest objective. They copy/paste these 3 groups all over the place, and there they stand, doing nothing, just waiting to be cut down. If you don't have stealth, you're cutting down the exact same group in the exact same spot twice, once as you move to the objective, once as you move back to the questgiver.
There's no birds chirping, no droids patrolling and killing things, no rebels ransacking everything. It's just dead.
It's one of the reasons I am started to really loathe the game every time I log in. It's just not a world that feels alive.
Anyway, another rant so take it for what it is. I never rant on MMOs but this one just frustrates me to no end. One of my favorite game developers making a game in my favorite genre with a great license. I want them to take my money but it's like they're doing everything they can to turn me off of their game
Yep, I remember some of this on Taris. Planet was the worst linear, lifeless, most poorly created place I have ever came across in any game - ever. I do not know what Bioware was thinking. I know what I was thinking - is this a joke?
Umm to someone that disagrees may you please download fraps or an in game recording program and tape it for us.
I could easily post something to show that upcoming mmorpgs are fixing this issue but then it'd cause problems unless you really want to see it an think I'm lying.
But yea this was a big issue because when I tried the beta I've tried an mmorpg(read my history if you want) it just gets really noticable, and a pain.
I played and have Skyrim but that's a single player game so it's understandable and shouldn't be compared.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
then give us a few examples. i cant think of any...
You only need to look two posts back to see Rift used as an excellent example for comparison.
Sometimes it seems like people demand examples as a sort of cheap debate tactic?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It is...I can show you plenty of examples from games like WoW, Rift, Aion, and Vanguard that shows how poorly Bioware did when it comes to creating a non-lifeless world.
Do it.
.. But in a good way.
EQ was better too...guards would actually kill monsters and could even be killed by players!
That aside though, the poster who gave the Rift example commented that BW typically does this "static" crap in their SP games too. And well, I think it's a lot more acceptable to do that in an SP game than it is in an MMORPG.
SPRPGs can be completely player centric. The entire experience can be based around the player and it works because the player is the only intelligent lifeform in the world. So having static world stuff in SPRPGs usually isn't a huge deal. Note that you CAN have an SPRPG with more of a world focus (Skyrim), but it's not necessary.
But MMORPGs? They have to have a fairly major focus on the world. The entire purpose of an MMORPG is to play with others in a persistent world. If the world isn't believable, then it hurts the game.
So I basically think BW did what they always do, but it just doesn't work well in an MMORPG.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah , they've just concentrated too much on full VO and cutscenes. That much VO and cutscenes cost alot of money ,time and effort.
So yeah many other things in Swtor are just weak.
Swtor would be MUCH better if full VO was only applied to class quests and other quests had either quiet text dialogues or even dreaded text walls and they would spend money & time ALSO on other things like well world? making engine better ,etc
BUT
world also feel so lifeless cause of very heavy instancing...
And if Teala does do it will you be open minded about it, or will you put blinders on and say its a lie?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It's like the Michael Bay effect. SWTOR's biggest strength is VO...which is kind of like special effects. It's cool, neat, impressive, but lacks any depth or staying power.
I also think that having too much VO can be a bad thing. VO used to be a great spotlighting mechanism. When a really important conversation was happening, there would be VO, but for everything else it would be text. It immediately let the player know that this was important, and often left a memorable impression.
When you do it too much though, VO just becomes common-place, expected. And I found myself skipping the VO for my class quest as often as I skipped it when rancher Bob asked me to get back his lost gravel maggots. I STILL remember Jon Irenicus going on a rampage at the beginning of Baldur's Gate 2...but I hardly remember anything from Mass Effect.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Sorry... those game are just as lifeless and dull.
NPC's standing around doing nothing. If they are talking it's on a loop.
Same NPC's fighting in the same area everyday. To the extent that they are used a directions! "go to where this guy and that guy are fighting and hook a left and youll see it"
My personal favorite - NPC's are fighting at the edge of town... the guard kills the mob, sheathes his sword and walks away... and 30 seconds later... THE MOBS TWIN COMES FOR VENGEANCE!!!!!
maybe im a bit harder to "immerse" than most of you... but i kind of never forget that im playing a game and it aint real! i dont expect the little digital characters to do something amazing just cause i decide to stand around for 20 minutes watching them as i E-RP. theyre meant to be background... thats all they are. put too much thought into it and you get what we have here. lol.
My point is this - you call it an immersion killer. whatever. ...but with all the issues that TOR has... NPC's that are less than "dynamic" really are the least of their concerns. and honestly... to pick THIS as something to bitch about... something that is present in damn near EVERY MMO out now... well now youre just try to find new ways of beating a dead horse.
I'll wait for a fanboy to post a counter-video first, but yes I'll be open minded :P You never let someone provide both sides to the argument.. lol
.. But in a good way.
You can't be serious, Taris is one of the nicest and most interestingly designed places I have seen in mmos. I love it.
I liked the Mirror's Edge platforming bullshit I had to do to get my datacrons.. Lol
I'm serious, I DID like it. WoW has nothing comparable. Closest thing is Rift's puzzles for loot.
.. But in a good way.
Nobody is beating a dead horse. Players of MMO'RPG's expect to see at least some attempt from the developer to not make a world seem lifeless and dead. Even Rift with its poorly animated critters attempted to add some life to their world, SWTOR has zero. Show me one bug, one bird, a snake...fish in the water(oh that's right - SWTOR doesn't ahve anything but wading pools!). Stop trying to spin this. This is one of the biggest on going complaints of players from the game - the lifeless, dead worlds. You can try to deny it, spin it, sprinkle it with gum drops and have prancing unicorns - it doesn't change the way the game worlds are - dead.
Vanguard? LOL.
Your posts are usually very interesting to read, but I'm sorry, this is pure nonsense. The Vanguard lifeless world and DEAD cities was the 1st reason I left this game (combat and poor character animations being the 2nd).
The 3 other games, ok we can talk, but Vanguard? No way.