Well I completely agree with the OP. After playing the beta the first time I was unimpressed with a number of aspects of the game, many of which have been listed here, but it is after all a beta I kept telling myself. When the opportunity came to play the TOR beta this past weekend , I found myself lacking the enthusiasm to even log on at first, (not a good sign) and then after sitting before the character generation screen , its bland and unimaginative execution left me thinking can I even be arsed to log on proper. When I did eventually log into the game and perservered playing a BH for a couple of hours before finally logging off for good, I was left ultimately with a deep feeling of dissatisfaction with SWTOR and the 'Bioware' approach.
For the record I disliked Dragonage Online, immensely... its, lead you by the nose hairs gameplay and those unholy, shit , linear environments, where mere stretches of water seemed to be bordered by 'invisiwalls'™ or low tufts of 'nopassgrass'™ impeding ones passage added to which the presence of a hackneyed so-called 'story' meant it was very soon that I uninstalled the abomination. Now with Bioware's first (ahem) mmo, I am not going to be totally unfair and say its as irritating as DA Online, its not, but its still feels restrictive. Biowares' adherence to their tried ( read, tired )and tested formula is what leaves me to believe TOR is not going to hold its subs as long as some think. You see no matter how many commentators say that these mmo companies are only delivering what the market is asking for, I find it still strange that a great many of the new crop of mmo games , for all the money thrown at them , still fail to hit the mark.
I blame the themepark approach firstly and no matter how much Bioware yell from the rooftops about their 'story' and 'voice-acting' it can't disguise the fact the gameworld is a sterile, dead emotionless cobbled together series of cut-scenes, with you or I being not very convincingly sold the illusion were back in the Star wars universe...christ I almost described the second Star Wars trilogy there to boot. " Control , you must learn control" a little green pint-sized muppet once said, I have a feeling Bioware might have taken Yodas advice too literally and like Mr Lucas himself ( if his pants second trilogy is anything to go by) might find they have a very expensive failure on their hands unless they..."unlearn what they have learned" and start doing something friggin new.
and why I get more annoyed with each Bioware game I play.
why the hell they dumbed down the rest, which does even exist in your standard-asia-F2P-theme-park?
But please, dont call that stuff an MMORPG or even a RPG. This big bad "R" means more than making a decision from time to time between option 1, 2 and 3.
I agree, but that would apply to majority of MMORPGs (or MMOs should I say). The idea is that it is still better than WoW where quests are like "go kill 20 of those" or "go there and there and there 20 times". So don't compare MMO stuff to the classical single player RPGs. Man - I really miss Daggerfal with all it's complexity and deep RPG mechanics and I miss Baldur's Gate syle old good AD&D 2nd edition rules, but you know playing these in MMOs variant would have been a disaster :-).
Well I completely agree with the OP. After playing the beta the first time I was unimpressed with a number of aspects of the game, many of which have been listed here, but it is after all a beta I kept telling myself. When the opportunity came to play the TOR beta this past weekend , I found myself lacking the enthusiasm to even log on at first, (not a good sign) and then after sitting before the character generation screen , its bland and unimaginative execution left me thinking can I even be arsed to log on proper. When I did eventually log into the game and perservered playing a BH for a couple of hours before finally logging off for good, I was left ultimately with a deep feeling of dissatisfaction with SWTOR and the 'Bioware' approach.
For the record I disliked Dragonage Online, immensely... its, lead you by the nose hairs gameplay and those unholy, shit , linear environments, where mere stretches of water seemed to be bordered by 'invisiwalls'™ or low tufts of 'nopassgrass'™ impeding ones passage added to which the presence of a hackneyed so-called 'story' meant it was very soon that I uninstalled the abomination. Now with Bioware's first (ahem) mmo, I am not going to be totally unfair and say its as irritating as DA Online, its not, but its still feels restrictive. Biowares' adherence to their tried ( read, tired )and tested formula is what leaves me to believe TOR is not going to hold its subs as long as some think. You see no matter how many commentators say that these mmo companies are only delivering what the market is asking for, I find it still strange that a great many of the new crop of mmo games , for all the money thrown at them , still fail to hit the mark.
I blame the themepark approach firstly and no matter how much Bioware yell from the rooftops about their 'story' and 'voice-acting' it can't disguise the fact the gameworld is a sterile, dead emotionless cobbled together series of cut-scenes, with you or I being not very convincingly sold the illusion were back in the Star wars universe...christ I almost described the second Star Wars trilogy there to boot. " Control , you must learn control" a little green pint-sized muppet once said, I have a feeling Bioware might have taken Yodas advice too literally and like Mr Lucas himself ( if his pants second trilogy is anything to go by) might find they have a very expensive failure on their hands unless they..."unlearn what they have learned" and start doing something friggin new.
okay, so I take it that you wont be playing either, and you have some good reasons, I agree. but if not this then what? WoW?
You said that they could be looking at major fail if they don't come up with something new. What exactly did you have in mind? Can you come up with a cohesive plan for the "MMO of the Gods" one that will make everyone happy and be financially feasible? if so then you should be pitching that idea to EA (or whoever) cause I can't wait to play THAT game
I don't see one, I think that no matter what they make, most people will bitch about not getting whatever obscure thing that they wanted and how the game sucks because of it
Well, no, definately not WoW, thats for sure. But yeah I can think of quite a few things actually my friend and so can a great many people on these good forums as well, but our friendly neighbourhood games companies aren't interested in unsolicited pitches, they just will happily churn out their formulaic drivel for as long as their are half-wits that will pay for it, and I for one am royally sick of seeing products being produced that were past their sell by date a few years ago. My biggest gripe with these games is, we have god knows how many sources of material , be they books, films, etc in all manner of genres on countless subjects and we have an entertainment medium, the mmo, with all this to choose from and what do the companies produce, the same tired regurgitated offal which lo and behold people are sick of seeing. I hold much hope in TSW on the horizon, if that doesn't deliver some of the promise..it um..promises , then i think I'l be dusting of the frigging Kerplunk before i'll waste my time on mmo's in future, till at least..they come of age.
P.S. someone tell me what the hell happened with the length of ma post .
For me the number one dislike of the game is nothing to do with the game or Bioware really. It's Lucasarts decision to kill off SWG to help this game. Call it what you want, but that's really what it boils down to. TOR and SWG are SO totally different games that there is certainly room in the market for both. SWG players would have been playing both, but TOR would still have millions of units sold on the IP's name, the loyal KOTOR fans and the MMO players that always play whatever's new. SWG is no threat.
TOR really REALLY feels VERY WoW-like to me. That to me is not a good thing, but that's my opinion. 10 million people disagree with me. I would hope that instead of dumbing it down, they layer in more complexities and optional systems for us more inclined to complex gaming to enjoy.
I really hope they bring in a much more robust space system. Remember how in the first trilogy it was very much about space combat but then with the prequels space combat (which was much easier to pull of technically) kinda dies. Star Wars is about Wars in the Stars , i.e. spaceships! Please bring us better space content!
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.
One of the threads that connects all of these things, including the problem with side quests, is that there is no sense of "identity" in this game. MMO's traditional give a character a sense of "uniqueness", and to a degree the class quests do this in SWTOR (unless you stop to think about the person running into their own instance of your same quest is hearing the same exact words as you). Aside from the class quests though, nothing makes you feel unique, the items, the customization choices, the side quests are all so the same that you never walk away feeling like you were Leoghan the great Bounty Hunter, but instead I was playing BW's idea of what Leoghan the great Bounty Hunter should be. And no this is not limited to the Bounty Hunter experience, that was an example, I've played all the classed to 25+ or higher, not my first time to the rodeo here.
and why I get more annoyed with each Bioware game I play.
why the hell they dumbed down the rest, which does even exist in your standard-asia-F2P-theme-park?
But please, dont call that stuff an MMORPG or even a RPG. This big bad "R" means more than making a decision from time to time between option 1, 2 and 3.
I agree, but that would apply to majority of MMORPGs (or MMOs should I say). The idea is that it is still better than WoW where quests are like "go kill 20 of those" or "go there and there and there 20 times". So don't compare MMO stuff to the classical single player RPGs. Man - I really miss Daggerfal with all it's complexity and deep RPG mechanics and I miss Baldur's Gate syle old good AD&D 2nd edition rules, but you know playing these in MMOs variant would have been a disaster :-).
i fully agree that the quests in SWTOR are much better, than the usual quests in theme-parks. but why didnt they implement some dynamic events or at least public quests? just quests is a bit lame or lets say old-fashioned these days, isnt it?
i also agree, that you cant port a pure sandbox RPG like daggerfall into a massive environment. some of the key mechanics would simply not work. we lately discussed about a Skyrim MMO. great game, but a lot of stuff would not work in an MMO. nevertheless, the immersion in Skyrim is much better than in SWTOR imho. does this mean, that Skyrims story is better? i doubt it is, but the entire living environment is much better. and you have to take care about much more stuff, than just your next quest. this makes the difference between a living world and an interactice movie driven by a storybook.
most MMOs nowadays are going to enrich their theme-parks with sandbox elements and will most propably end up with a kind of sandpark; or vice versa, introduce massive questing or dynamic events into a sandbox environment in an appropriate manner: The Secret World or Archage comes to mind. SWTOR did exactly the opposite. they made the theme-park even more linear and storycentric and subordinated everything else to this story brutally. i guess with SWTOR we saw the end of the theme-park in terms of the most radical interpretation of this architectural approach.
dont get me wrong. i bought it already and i will play and enjoy it ... until the story is done. for me personally SWTOR is more in the department of Risen and Elder Scrolls than Lotro or EVE.
and we will remember SWTOR as the game, which introduced full voice-over into MMOs. you hate it or love it. i love it!
I know it may be a small thing, but I think they really need to improve Ambient Sounds. the planets are far too quiet!
Here's hoping Space becomes the first expansion!
A good observation! I had not consciously noted that. But it sure adds to the lifeless feeling, yes.
Yea the worlds could use alittle more life. Bugs flying through the air like on Wow and SWG. The sounds of wind even would make it feel alittle more lively. One of my main things was there should be more little things happening that you dont really notice at first. Things i liked in SWG were just little non-attackable creatures that ran across fields and city streets and bugs flying around the lights of cities.
The main complaint i have right now with the game is the character creator. Could use a few more body types, atleast one between the big bulky body and the regular body build. Also some color options there on the tattoos would be nice. I know some cultures maybe did one distinct color but itd be a nice little touch to have the added colors for some things.
Space combat for me is huge as well... This decision for Star Fox the Old Republic reeks of laziness on Bioware's part; its almost as if space combat was added as an after thought. At least with SWG they waited and released a decent follow-up with JTL; which in my opinion was outstanding.
I don't think its laziness, I think that space combat is simply not their thing. I think that somebody decided that it had to be included & Bioware did what they could. They should have outsourced it IMO, its clearly not their strong suit
I thought the current space combat was a place holder of sorts. Gives you the option of space combat that they originally said wouldnt be in lauch. Atleast thats what i was thinking was posted somewhere. It was a last minute addition to give you atleast a taste of space until they can put in a better system in an expansion or update.
Over all the game is pretty good. Combat is pretty well done and has its own good and bad points. I played the story lines for 6 of the professions and liked most of it. Was alittle disturbed that the choices they give you could sound different when the character spoke it. Over all its a decent play and im awaiting the preorder play or another invite so i can contunie my Consulars story. There are the draw backs but there is also alot of good work that went into the game and the fact that the main storys seem to be quite different atleast at low levels makes me believe that even when i get maxxed on my first character ill have something fun to do waiting on the next expansion or when i cant find group for the flashpoints and operations.
I think it was dumb of them to make spacecombat single player. It would have been INCREDIBLY easy to make it faux-multiplayer. Many phone arcade games do this... It is where you see other players 'playing' with you, but in reality they are not. Their ship is just randomly moving around and firing on enemies with you, like an NPC buddy. And they see the same for your ship.
I know thats not ideal but it would probably fool all of you to a surprising extent. :-)
IMO the SWG expansion Jump to Lightspeed was amazing, but it detracted from the core of the game and we would have been better off with something arcady like this.
I was SURE that the #1 would be that SWTOR is an obvious WOW CLONE, lol. I guess that is not something 'not so great' about this game?
First, for the topic side quests. Daniel Erickson emphasized in interviews MANY TIMES, players of various classes would experience NOT A SINGLE SAME QUEST. He was *very* adamant in this. And now? If you play Jedi Knight and then Consular, 2/3rd of the startet planet quests are the same. Then ALL chars of the Republic come to Coruscant and make 80% of the same quests. All that makes replayability a scam, and that needs to be said. Daniel Erickson lied.
This is incorrect. The claim was that by playing both sides you'd never see repeat content, and I believe with the exception of some Flashpoints, this is true. If you play two different Republic classes you'll see mostly the same content (outside of your class quests), but if you play a Jedi Knight and then a Sith Warrior there won't be any real overlap.
I still think it was a great misleading, and on purpose. What good does story do, if I have to see it all over again? When it was just a mindless "kill 20 rats" it doesn't matter so much. You click it away and grind your way. But with story, who wants the entire Coruscant politics missions AGAIN? Who would really reroll a second class in the same faction in this way? This is a big miscalculation and absurdity. And the OP here even highlighted on big issue. Why should by Smuggler involve himself in the Coruscant politics like the Jedi did before?
No Sir, they never admitted there was so much same content. Maybe Erickson circumvented it by only saing opposing factions in NAME, but the strong emphasis was still there, and I am sure this was intentional misleading. The way a politician can "lied without actually lieing.", and an insult to players to mislead us thus on top of it all, how they lied about MANY things in this dubious way of hinting and misleading and suggesting things.
Just having totally different quests for FACTIONS would nothing be to write home about. WOW had that, DAoC had that, Warhammer had that. Many games had that! THAT would not have been any novelity at all. The truth is, after you leave the starter world, 80% of content is the exact same within your faction, and I am sure many expected that to be greatly different! And even the oh so individual class content is often just one small instanced room with a boss fight in the dungeon you walk with everyone else. Yeah, VERY individual.
I saw this mostly on the new planet and I recall that the guiy said on the new player planet this would be the case. I played a Sith Inqusitor logically both the inquisitor and the sith warrior come from the same academy so there story's are going to be a bit the same. I also played a bounty hunter and none of those were the same as my sith toon. when I got to the 2nd planet the only thing that over lapped was the side quest. My BH's story had nothing to do with my sith story which is as he said it would be. Go back look up the interview and listen. I don't mean this to sound mean but, your making comment based on what you wanted to hear and not what was said.
The first biggy for me was the space part. Many think there was no one flying in SWG all I can say is I don't know where you were but, my guild alone had 4 squads of 10-15 people in each squad and we flew everyday. Many days we faced off against imperials and a large battle insued.
I do understand tho the reason, they stated that the space was added due to demand for some type of space content and they did not have the budget pre launch to put a lot into it. There choices were to put out 2 half done sides of the game or make sure the ground game was working and move to space later. Although the statement "no one flies" is inacurate there are more people that do the ground side then fly so it makes sense that they did the ground side first although I would rather they left out the star foxy type game play until they could come back with something decent. I would gladly trundle down to my local retailer to purchase the space game addon for The Old Republic if they decided to do like SWG did JTL.
The ships don't feel like "your" ship they just feel like a different place to be and the fuel cost is just silly. Ion engines don't use fuel. All the classes ship's are exactly the same at least in galaxis you could put a different color schem on it and later the engines and weapons had different looks depending on which ones you were using.
They did say they would work on a better space game after launch if there was demand for it so if you want it make it known. Ill be making a point of putting things in the suggestion forums from time to time.
Ok I Admit it,I Loved WoW.I started when BC was released and I was hooked.Die Hard hooked.It had so much to offer and so much you could do to have fun and entertain yorself.Gear was hard to get and pvp was awsome.But when Cata came out and agian Blizzard decide to redo everything again and it was the same ol sameol grind but with dumbed down quest and bosses so the Lazy players wouldnt cry and Blizzard didnt want to lose their 14.99 a month.I quit playing 4 months ago.Wehn I saw SWTOR Hype i was ready and now im like really upset.
Poor graphics,poor questing,lack of stuff to do,lack of team play,lack of a real pvp environment.Where are the spaceships to fight in space with.Where are the many different races and specail abilities that come with them.Im not ask for WoW again but durn dont hype a Hot fresh cow turd on a hot summers day and make me kick it.This game is not worht buying save your money or let the 6-13yr old play it.Its just to easy to simple and no worries about anything remotely bloody or graphic.There is so much you can do with this game 30 different races at least 75 planets or more,100s of differnet ships,1000s of lone or team questing.Im sorry if im overdoing it but the Beta Testing Taught me this,I really hope GWII is better.Long live us Gamers young and old!!!Give us awesomeness and we will give loyalty!!! Pardon my spelling and typing gosh durn bifocals
I know it maybe a bit of a longshot wish, but wouldn't it be cool if the space system was like EVE?? Be able to purchase different types of ships, different weapons, and maybe eventually build a star destroyes( or its equivalent?) lol would anybody ever leave space then??
What really struck me was the utter lack of long hair choices for females. The longest hair option for a human female was dead straight coming down to just above the shoulders. What about that hot bounty hunter from the first trailer? You can even choose her as a forum avatar. Both show her with long hair but you are not given any hairstyle choices that are even vaguely close.
and it is not like they only give you 6 hairstyles to choose from. There are a ton of choices but appearantly no woman in the old republic had ever thought to wear her hair long.
Not to mention guys with long hair. Um. Qui-gon Jinn anyone? Nope, guess not.
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
Sad but true...their avatars definitely have better looking items for things like Miraluka masks...
Here is my top 5
1) Waaaaaaaay too much of an on the rails themepark. It is impossible to get off the rails and just "live" in the space...something the principal lead designer promised we would be able to do. This carries over into the "small zone" implementation of the worlds. The worlds all feel tiny, because you are always limited by the lowest common denominator...the tiny zone you are in...VERY disappoinitng
2) Character creation and subsequent character customization...chargen sux....pure laziness...cyborgs as a race, as implemented, epitomizes this pervasive flaw. Their mod system MIGHT be all right for stats, but it willl NEVER be a decent substitute for an appearance tab. There are WAY too many items that simply do not have all the slots.
For a game that has countless up close cut scenes of your toon in conversations, the lack of a modern or robust set of chargen and appearance features IS UNFORGIVEABLE. INEXCUSEABLE.
3) Space - reducing space down to a single player tunnel shooter in a star wars MMO is CRIMINAL.
4) No social aspects. No hobbies. No real, appropriate minigames like swoop racing, dejarik, pazaak, sabaac, etc. No reason to go to a cantina other than to log out. No innovative or robust guild or community supporting tools. 95%+ if the game is a solo rpg experience, which is a GIGANTIC waste of a star wars MMO.
5) Class balance is a JOKE. They only have 8 classes and yet they are completely unbalanced. They are CLUELESS when it comes to balancing a melee class. PATHETIC design work here.
Well, no, definately not WoW, thats for sure. But yeah I can think of quite a few things actually my friend and so can a great many people on these good forums as well, but our friendly neighbourhood games companies aren't interested in unsolicited pitches, they just will happily churn out their formulaic drivel for as long as their are half-wits that will pay for it, and I for one am royally sick of seeing products being produced that were past their sell by date a few years ago. My biggest gripe with these games is, we have god knows how many sources of material , be they books, films, etc in all manner of genres on countless subjects and we have an entertainment medium, the mmo, with all this to choose from and what do the companies produce, the same tired regurgitated offal which lo and behold people are sick of seeing. I hold much hope in TSW on the horizon, if that doesn't deliver some of the promise..it um..promises , then i think I'l be dusting of the frigging Kerplunk before i'll waste my time on mmo's in future, till at least..they come of age.
P.S. someone tell me what the hell happened with the length of ma post .
IDK, it got even longer when I quoted it, lol. I hear ya man, the problem with the "sell by date" is that MMO's take so frikkin long to make. trying to make one that looks current could keep a game in development forever. just trying to keep up would add the the time it would take to release, making it that much more out of date.
I have high hopes for TSW as well, but I can already see the writing on the wall, it will be a game that a core group will love passionately and everybody else will hate it just as passionately. plus its being made my Funcom which has me a little worried. oh well, I'm intrigued & I'll be there on launch with you. although I don't think you're being fair to SWTOR. ~peas
Two things: First off, I agree that character creation is extremely limited. A friend and I both created Jedi Knights last weekend... And if I hadn't given mine a beard we would have looked like "Clones". I sort of thought someone might even report us for multi-boxing. ;-)
Now I'm not cutting BioWare any slack here. They are Lazy biotches, but when you're some "code slave" for EA, I guess it can't be helped. Still this is going to be something they'll have to address if they want to keep subscribers over the long term. Still I'll let them figure out the details.
Second, I cannot believe you want BioWare to make a "real space game"!?! Seriously if you played the game then you know that they can't even get the "taxis" to fly correctly. And all the ship scenes are cut scenes... So I'm surprise they even bothered with the Space Combat mini-game.
Later on it will be nice to have other features. I would even like for there to be better landing, travel, and take off animations. Because what they currently have is pathetic. Still I don't expect them to build a real 3D space combat simulation until much later.
I mean one thing that occured to me was that they know how to do "elevator rides". (Though whether or not they were done well is another matter!) But all you have in SWTOR for elevators is a black screen. So I'd say that the Hero Engine may have some limitations that they haven't figured out how to work around.
Still at the end of the day I have to say I enjoy SWTOR. The real question is what will they do to keep me playing after I've played all 8 basic storylines? They better have some new "content" on the way.
I just don't agree with #1 because DH just posted datamined info from the patch they did for launch and they added 1800 more items and 600 more schematics for the game. There will be tons of different looks you will be able to have. And with the awesome mod setup they have you can keep look you want.
Although I do agree with most of the other stuff, none of it is a deal breaker with me.
I've been wondering what it was what made me stop playing Mas Effect 2 and your post made me realize this could be it. Having no real choice over what my character says equates to having no real choice in the story. More of like watching a movie instead of playing it.
+ 1
I really don't like this as well. Really. I understand though this is MEANT to be like that. But it is not only that you select something and something else is said, but that dialogues are very limited cause of that. Always 3 options (good, neutral, bad) feels kinda "meh". This what bugged me in ME2 / DA2 as well and one of main reasons I am NOT buying ME3 / DA3.
I do NOT want game to play like interactive movie. I find it better to watch a real movie instead
Game has to be a game with real choices and to have cinematic restrictive dialogues like that is wasting potential of how fun, complex and in-depth dialogues could be.
After playing Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas I have zero interest in Mass Effect 3 and not that much in Star Wars The Old Republic as well.
In those games if you talk to an NPC about a side quest typical chat options are:
- Sure I would like to help you.
-I'll help you for 5000 credits
-Sod off you imbecile!
On top of that you can cancel the converstaion and blow the NPC's head off.
And that decision has consequences to, in the short term (his friends go after you) and the long term. (his friends go after you, NPC's treating you different, other dialog referring to what you did, etc.)
IMHO it's designed that way to "surprise" you, in a way you can't exactly predict what your character is going to say.
Personally I do think it's breaking the immersion as removing the control of the character from the player, making him/her more a tool than a contributor.
I loved both the DA and ME games and I was really happy to see that SWTOR is just like those two.
I wouldn't say that char customisation is perfect, but I like the litle touches like the faces changing with the different body types. Well, they can never be enough hair-styles (and after the horrific ones in both DA and ME, the ones in SWTOR are definitely a step up - even though I can't live with more than 5 of them).
I can see the point of the world being a bit lifeless, but I rather have no critters than seeing them slaughered by hormonal teenagers (whose nunbers shouldn't be too high hopefully - sorry, hate to play with kids).
One thing I'd like to see is customisable space-ships. I don't like the fact that they look the same for everybody. It's your home base, so you should be able to customise it.
So far I tried space battle once, wasn't great for me, I thought I did something wrong, because I couldn't control the ship. I felt sick after the whole experience for about an hour.
I'm not quite sure about the romance options, but from what I know, they are out there. From what I've seen so far, those are much better for male players (ofc). If it's like in ME2, I'd like to protest in the name of my fellow female players
Come on, in ME2, you had Jacob, utterly annoying, the fish guy, don't remember his name, kind of Fenris with gills and Garrus, whom I really liked, but he looks like my dog, so love him as a pet, not as... urgh, don't even want to think about it.
I know, it's not a major issue, but the romance option was always a huuuuge appeal of Bioware games (don't let me get started on Alistair ( hated by all guys, loved by most female players, just youtube him)), but when I run around in the game on the Sith side and hear comments like "Can't wait to bone Kaliyo" and look at the idiotic Khem Val, I feel a bit jealous.
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
Sad but true...their avatars definitely have better looking items for things like Miraluka masks...
Here is my top 5
1) Waaaaaaaay too much of an on the rails themepark. It is impossible to get off the rails and just "live" in the space...something the principal lead designer promised we would be able to do. This carries over into the "small zone" implementation of the worlds. The worlds all feel tiny, because you are always limited by the lowest common denominator...the tiny zone you are in...VERY disappoinitng
2) Character creation and subsequent character customization...chargen sux....pure laziness...cyborgs as a race, as implemented, epitomizes this pervasive flaw. Their mod system MIGHT be all right for stats, but it willl NEVER be a decent substitute for an appearance tab. There are WAY too many items that simply do not have all the slots.
For a game that has countless up close cut scenes of your toon in conversations, the lack of a modern or robust set of chargen and appearance features IS UNFORGIVEABLE. INEXCUSEABLE.
3) Space - reducing space down to a single player tunnel shooter in a star wars MMO is CRIMINAL.
4) No social aspects. No hobbies. No real, appropriate minigames like swoop racing, dejarik, pazaak, sabaac, etc. No reason to go to a cantina other than to log out. No innovative or robust guild or community supporting tools. 95%+ if the game is a solo rpg experience, which is a GIGANTIC waste of a star wars MMO.
5) Class balance is a JOKE. They only have 8 classes and yet they are completely unbalanced. They are CLUELESS when it comes to balancing a melee class. PATHETIC design work here.
This whole article cracked me up.Basically it was painfully obvious that Mr Bitten desperately wants this game to be better than it is, and as such is downplaying things that are frankly HUGE issues.
Seriously, this is how many of the points read to me:"Well, this new girlfriend i have doesn't mind giving me head... but, she really has a bad habit of biting or nipping with her teeth and it hurts like a sonofoabitch....but...but...at least im still getting a blowjob!
"The fact of the matter is too many people are going to give bioware their undeserved money because they're star war fans and they dont have the mental or ethical fortitude to stand up for themselves and demand a better product.
I'm so sick of people thinking BioWare is such hot shit, they've been putting a new coat of lipstick on the same pig for 10 years now and everyone keeps lapping it up like its the friggin nectar of the gods.
I honestly feel like im the guy in the cult who snapped out of it and is seeing reality for what it is, whilst everyone else is still running around in a mindless haze of worship, drinking the koolaid at every available opportunity.
Yea, I did that exactly once and got kneed so hard it knocked the wind out of me. Turns out guys don't actually like it when you do that.
But seriously, reading this, I realised this is how I feel, and why I get more annoyed with each Bioware game I play. I loved NWN just, tons. I loved Jade Empire. Then it started getting stale. This it is, beyond the dialogue thing that, well, I've been there in this thread already. I've been playing the same game with the same combat and the same good/evil choices for years. NWN was obviously different and I still like it a lot, but after that, it is just the same game, over and over, with a different coat of paint.
No wonder I can't stand it after all this time.
Good to know im not the only one. Honestly for me it started with KOTOR, reasonably enjoyable game, but its when i started to notice the trend. Then a few years later i was walking by and my roomey was playing mass effect, and i actually thought it was a new KOTOR series, so i asked him and he said no its their new game mass effect. So i sat down and watched him play it for a little over an hour, and i just couldnt stop laughing. They basically took KOTOR, crossed a few names out, replaced them with some other names. Updated the graphics a bit, changed the storyline somewhat (overall a lot of plot lines were very similar though) and bam, new game.
IMO The only thing worse than BioWare about slapping a new coat of paint on the same house, so to speak, is Infinity Ward/Activision. I loved CoD 1 and 2, but after CoD 4 and everything subsequent to that... just sad. The worst part is how the fanbois and people just bend right over and take it. Actually, thats not the worst part, the worst part is that after they're done taking it up the rear, they turn around and defend the developers and shower them with praise, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Space combat for me is huge as well... This decision for Star Fox the Old Republic reeks of laziness on Bioware's part; its almost as if space combat was added as an after thought. At least with SWG they waited and released a decent follow-up with JTL; which in my opinion was outstanding.
yep JTL was awesome but after that they basically left it aside for the years to come and noone was there with you in space soon.
we can only hope that BW starts weak on space combat and goes strong over time - better then the other way around at least. at least they hinted a few plans with it with guild capital ships and what not. all we can do is wait and see.
At least, unlike the past, they appear to be quite open with regards to where they go with space combat from here. It sounds like what they do will depend heavily on what player feedback is like post-launch. If you want more from space combat, be sure to make your voice heard to BioWare!
The initial version of space combat in SW:TOR is due to the influence of Gordan Walton, who was BioWare Austin’s Vice President/Co-Studio Director (and formerSony Online Entertainment Austin VP/Executive Producer/Studio Manager). He gave a presentation during the 2010 Game Developers Conference entitled “MMO Retention - Learning from the First 25 Years.”
Speaking about SWG's JtL, he said: “So it wasn't positive for retention, because the game was a very different game. It was a 3D space game. And in fact, a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit. That was part of what we found out. The control scheme had to be different; everything had to be different. It was not as advantageous to us as we had hoped.” Cryptic made the same comments about its Alpha testers with STO as well, when they announced that space movement would not be fully 3D. What I would like to know is where they keep finding these people that can't handle it?
On the matter of rentention, post-JtL: “And in fact, we had a backlash of some anti-retention from the current customers that we already had because they were enjoying the game they were playing and wanted more of that, or wanted that fixed more than they wanted to fly around space in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't that flying around space in the Star Wars universe wasn't cool: the problem was that they wanted more of what they were already doing.” The fact of the matter is, SOE put out a game that was not ready for launch. Add to that the fact that WoW launched less than a month after JtL launched, and I believe those two (shoddy launch, another game) are the reasons for SWG's drop off in subscribers.
With Gordon Walton believeing JtL was causing SWG's decline, and with him being in a position to heavily influence the space part of SW:TOR, I wasn't really surprised at the decision to make it space on rails.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Comments
Well I completely agree with the OP. After playing the beta the first time I was unimpressed with a number of aspects of the game, many of which have been listed here, but it is after all a beta I kept telling myself. When the opportunity came to play the TOR beta this past weekend , I found myself lacking the enthusiasm to even log on at first, (not a good sign) and then after sitting before the character generation screen , its bland and unimaginative execution left me thinking can I even be arsed to log on proper. When I did eventually log into the game and perservered playing a BH for a couple of hours before finally logging off for good, I was left ultimately with a deep feeling of dissatisfaction with SWTOR and the 'Bioware' approach.
For the record I disliked Dragonage Online, immensely... its, lead you by the nose hairs gameplay and those unholy, shit , linear environments, where mere stretches of water seemed to be bordered by 'invisiwalls'™ or low tufts of 'nopassgrass'™ impeding ones passage added to which the presence of a hackneyed so-called 'story' meant it was very soon that I uninstalled the abomination. Now with Bioware's first (ahem) mmo, I am not going to be totally unfair and say its as irritating as DA Online, its not, but its still feels restrictive. Biowares' adherence to their tried ( read, tired )and tested formula is what leaves me to believe TOR is not going to hold its subs as long as some think. You see no matter how many commentators say that these mmo companies are only delivering what the market is asking for, I find it still strange that a great many of the new crop of mmo games , for all the money thrown at them , still fail to hit the mark.
I blame the themepark approach firstly and no matter how much Bioware yell from the rooftops about their 'story' and 'voice-acting' it can't disguise the fact the gameworld is a sterile, dead emotionless cobbled together series of cut-scenes, with you or I being not very convincingly sold the illusion were back in the Star wars universe...christ I almost described the second Star Wars trilogy there to boot. " Control , you must learn control" a little green pint-sized muppet once said, I have a feeling Bioware might have taken Yodas advice too literally and like Mr Lucas himself ( if his pants second trilogy is anything to go by) might find they have a very expensive failure on their hands unless they..."unlearn what they have learned" and start doing something friggin new.
um, sorry, was that comment directed at me?
I agree, but that would apply to majority of MMORPGs (or MMOs should I say). The idea is that it is still better than WoW where quests are like "go kill 20 of those" or "go there and there and there 20 times". So don't compare MMO stuff to the classical single player RPGs. Man - I really miss Daggerfal with all it's complexity and deep RPG mechanics and I miss Baldur's Gate syle old good AD&D 2nd edition rules, but you know playing these in MMOs variant would have been a disaster :-).
okay, so I take it that you wont be playing either, and you have some good reasons, I agree. but if not this then what? WoW?
You said that they could be looking at major fail if they don't come up with something new. What exactly did you have in mind? Can you come up with a cohesive plan for the "MMO of the Gods" one that will make everyone happy and be financially feasible? if so then you should be pitching that idea to EA (or whoever) cause I can't wait to play THAT game
I don't see one, I think that no matter what they make, most people will bitch about not getting whatever obscure thing that they wanted and how the game sucks because of it
Well, no, definately not WoW, thats for sure. But yeah I can think of quite a few things actually my friend and so can a great many people on these good forums as well, but our friendly neighbourhood games companies aren't interested in unsolicited pitches, they just will happily churn out their formulaic drivel for as long as their are half-wits that will pay for it, and I for one am royally sick of seeing products being produced that were past their sell by date a few years ago. My biggest gripe with these games is, we have god knows how many sources of material , be they books, films, etc in all manner of genres on countless subjects and we have an entertainment medium, the mmo, with all this to choose from and what do the companies produce, the same tired regurgitated offal which lo and behold people are sick of seeing. I hold much hope in TSW on the horizon, if that doesn't deliver some of the promise..it um..promises
, then i think I'l be dusting of the frigging Kerplunk before i'll waste my time on mmo's in future, till at least..they come of age.
P.S. someone tell me what the hell happened with the length of ma post
For me the number one dislike of the game is nothing to do with the game or Bioware really. It's Lucasarts decision to kill off SWG to help this game. Call it what you want, but that's really what it boils down to. TOR and SWG are SO totally different games that there is certainly room in the market for both. SWG players would have been playing both, but TOR would still have millions of units sold on the IP's name, the loyal KOTOR fans and the MMO players that always play whatever's new. SWG is no threat.
TOR really REALLY feels VERY WoW-like to me. That to me is not a good thing, but that's my opinion. 10 million people disagree with me. I would hope that instead of dumbing it down, they layer in more complexities and optional systems for us more inclined to complex gaming to enjoy.
I really hope they bring in a much more robust space system. Remember how in the first trilogy it was very much about space combat but then with the prequels space combat (which was much easier to pull of technically) kinda dies. Star Wars is about Wars in the Stars , i.e. spaceships! Please bring us better space content!
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.
One of the threads that connects all of these things, including the problem with side quests, is that there is no sense of "identity" in this game. MMO's traditional give a character a sense of "uniqueness", and to a degree the class quests do this in SWTOR (unless you stop to think about the person running into their own instance of your same quest is hearing the same exact words as you). Aside from the class quests though, nothing makes you feel unique, the items, the customization choices, the side quests are all so the same that you never walk away feeling like you were Leoghan the great Bounty Hunter, but instead I was playing BW's idea of what Leoghan the great Bounty Hunter should be. And no this is not limited to the Bounty Hunter experience, that was an example, I've played all the classed to 25+ or higher, not my first time to the rodeo here.
i fully agree that the quests in SWTOR are much better, than the usual quests in theme-parks. but why didnt they implement some dynamic events or at least public quests? just quests is a bit lame or lets say old-fashioned these days, isnt it?
i also agree, that you cant port a pure sandbox RPG like daggerfall into a massive environment. some of the key mechanics would simply not work. we lately discussed about a Skyrim MMO. great game, but a lot of stuff would not work in an MMO. nevertheless, the immersion in Skyrim is much better than in SWTOR imho. does this mean, that Skyrims story is better? i doubt it is, but the entire living environment is much better. and you have to take care about much more stuff, than just your next quest. this makes the difference between a living world and an interactice movie driven by a storybook.
most MMOs nowadays are going to enrich their theme-parks with sandbox elements and will most propably end up with a kind of sandpark; or vice versa, introduce massive questing or dynamic events into a sandbox environment in an appropriate manner: The Secret World or Archage comes to mind. SWTOR did exactly the opposite. they made the theme-park even more linear and storycentric and subordinated everything else to this story brutally. i guess with SWTOR we saw the end of the theme-park in terms of the most radical interpretation of this architectural approach.
dont get me wrong. i bought it already and i will play and enjoy it ... until the story is done. for me personally SWTOR is more in the department of Risen and Elder Scrolls than Lotro or EVE.
and we will remember SWTOR as the game, which introduced full voice-over into MMOs. you hate it or love it. i love it!
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Yea the worlds could use alittle more life. Bugs flying through the air like on Wow and SWG. The sounds of wind even would make it feel alittle more lively. One of my main things was there should be more little things happening that you dont really notice at first. Things i liked in SWG were just little non-attackable creatures that ran across fields and city streets and bugs flying around the lights of cities.
The main complaint i have right now with the game is the character creator. Could use a few more body types, atleast one between the big bulky body and the regular body build. Also some color options there on the tattoos would be nice. I know some cultures maybe did one distinct color but itd be a nice little touch to have the added colors for some things.
I thought the current space combat was a place holder of sorts. Gives you the option of space combat that they originally said wouldnt be in lauch. Atleast thats what i was thinking was posted somewhere. It was a last minute addition to give you atleast a taste of space until they can put in a better system in an expansion or update.
Over all the game is pretty good. Combat is pretty well done and has its own good and bad points. I played the story lines for 6 of the professions and liked most of it. Was alittle disturbed that the choices they give you could sound different when the character spoke it. Over all its a decent play and im awaiting the preorder play or another invite so i can contunie my Consulars story. There are the draw backs but there is also alot of good work that went into the game and the fact that the main storys seem to be quite different atleast at low levels makes me believe that even when i get maxxed on my first character ill have something fun to do waiting on the next expansion or when i cant find group for the flashpoints and operations.
I think it was dumb of them to make spacecombat single player. It would have been INCREDIBLY easy to make it faux-multiplayer. Many phone arcade games do this... It is where you see other players 'playing' with you, but in reality they are not. Their ship is just randomly moving around and firing on enemies with you, like an NPC buddy. And they see the same for your ship.
I know thats not ideal but it would probably fool all of you to a surprising extent. :-)
IMO the SWG expansion Jump to Lightspeed was amazing, but it detracted from the core of the game and we would have been better off with something arcady like this.
I was SURE that the #1 would be that SWTOR is an obvious WOW CLONE, lol. I guess that is not something 'not so great' about this game?
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I saw this mostly on the new planet and I recall that the guiy said on the new player planet this would be the case. I played a Sith Inqusitor logically both the inquisitor and the sith warrior come from the same academy so there story's are going to be a bit the same. I also played a bounty hunter and none of those were the same as my sith toon. when I got to the 2nd planet the only thing that over lapped was the side quest. My BH's story had nothing to do with my sith story which is as he said it would be. Go back look up the interview and listen. I don't mean this to sound mean but, your making comment based on what you wanted to hear and not what was said.
The first biggy for me was the space part. Many think there was no one flying in SWG all I can say is I don't know where you were but, my guild alone had 4 squads of 10-15 people in each squad and we flew everyday. Many days we faced off against imperials and a large battle insued.
I do understand tho the reason, they stated that the space was added due to demand for some type of space content and they did not have the budget pre launch to put a lot into it. There choices were to put out 2 half done sides of the game or make sure the ground game was working and move to space later. Although the statement "no one flies" is inacurate there are more people that do the ground side then fly so it makes sense that they did the ground side first although I would rather they left out the star foxy type game play until they could come back with something decent. I would gladly trundle down to my local retailer to purchase the space game addon for The Old Republic if they decided to do like SWG did JTL.
The ships don't feel like "your" ship they just feel like a different place to be and the fuel cost is just silly. Ion engines don't use fuel. All the classes ship's are exactly the same at least in galaxis you could put a different color schem on it and later the engines and weapons had different looks depending on which ones you were using.
They did say they would work on a better space game after launch if there was demand for it so if you want it make it known. Ill be making a point of putting things in the suggestion forums from time to time.
Ok I Admit it,I Loved WoW.I started when BC was released and I was hooked.Die Hard hooked.It had so much to offer and so much you could do to have fun and entertain yorself.Gear was hard to get and pvp was awsome.But when Cata came out and agian Blizzard decide to redo everything again and it was the same ol sameol grind but with dumbed down quest and bosses so the Lazy players wouldnt cry and Blizzard didnt want to lose their 14.99 a month.I quit playing 4 months ago.Wehn I saw SWTOR Hype i was ready and now im like really upset.
Poor graphics,poor questing,lack of stuff to do,lack of team play,lack of a real pvp environment.Where are the spaceships to fight in space with.Where are the many different races and specail abilities that come with them.Im not ask for WoW again but durn dont hype a Hot fresh cow turd on a hot summers day and make me kick it.This game is not worht buying save your money or let the 6-13yr old play it.Its just to easy to simple and no worries about anything remotely bloody or graphic.There is so much you can do with this game 30 different races at least 75 planets or more,100s of differnet ships,1000s of lone or team questing.Im sorry if im overdoing it but the Beta Testing Taught me this,I really hope GWII is better.Long live us Gamers young and old!!!Give us awesomeness and we will give loyalty!!! Pardon my spelling and typing gosh durn bifocals
I know it maybe a bit of a longshot wish, but wouldn't it be cool if the space system was like EVE?? Be able to purchase different types of ships, different weapons, and maybe eventually build a star destroyes( or its equivalent?) lol would anybody ever leave space then??
2. Character customization
What really struck me was the utter lack of long hair choices for females. The longest hair option for a human female was dead straight coming down to just above the shoulders. What about that hot bounty hunter from the first trailer? You can even choose her as a forum avatar. Both show her with long hair but you are not given any hairstyle choices that are even vaguely close.
and it is not like they only give you 6 hairstyles to choose from. There are a ton of choices but appearantly no woman in the old republic had ever thought to wear her hair long.
Not to mention guys with long hair. Um. Qui-gon Jinn anyone? Nope, guess not.
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
All die, so die well.
Originally posted by VikingGamer...
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
Sad but true...their avatars definitely have better looking items for things like Miraluka masks...
Here is my top 5
1) Waaaaaaaay too much of an on the rails themepark. It is impossible to get off the rails and just "live" in the space...something the principal lead designer promised we would be able to do. This carries over into the "small zone" implementation of the worlds. The worlds all feel tiny, because you are always limited by the lowest common denominator...the tiny zone you are in...VERY disappoinitng
2) Character creation and subsequent character customization...chargen sux....pure laziness...cyborgs as a race, as implemented, epitomizes this pervasive flaw. Their mod system MIGHT be all right for stats, but it willl NEVER be a decent substitute for an appearance tab. There are WAY too many items that simply do not have all the slots.
For a game that has countless up close cut scenes of your toon in conversations, the lack of a modern or robust set of chargen and appearance features IS UNFORGIVEABLE. INEXCUSEABLE.
3) Space - reducing space down to a single player tunnel shooter in a star wars MMO is CRIMINAL.
4) No social aspects. No hobbies. No real, appropriate minigames like swoop racing, dejarik, pazaak, sabaac, etc. No reason to go to a cantina other than to log out. No innovative or robust guild or community supporting tools. 95%+ if the game is a solo rpg experience, which is a GIGANTIC waste of a star wars MMO.
5) Class balance is a JOKE. They only have 8 classes and yet they are completely unbalanced. They are CLUELESS when it comes to balancing a melee class. PATHETIC design work here.
IDK, it got even longer when I quoted it, lol. I hear ya man, the problem with the "sell by date" is that MMO's take so frikkin long to make. trying to make one that looks current could keep a game in development forever. just trying to keep up would add the the time it would take to release, making it that much more out of date.
I have high hopes for TSW as well, but I can already see the writing on the wall, it will be a game that a core group will love passionately and everybody else will hate it just as passionately. plus its being made my Funcom which has me a little worried. oh well, I'm intrigued & I'll be there on launch with you. although I don't think you're being fair to SWTOR. ~peas
Two things: First off, I agree that character creation is extremely limited. A friend and I both created Jedi Knights last weekend... And if I hadn't given mine a beard we would have looked like "Clones". I sort of thought someone might even report us for multi-boxing. ;-)
Now I'm not cutting BioWare any slack here. They are Lazy biotches, but when you're some "code slave" for EA, I guess it can't be helped. Still this is going to be something they'll have to address if they want to keep subscribers over the long term. Still I'll let them figure out the details.
Second, I cannot believe you want BioWare to make a "real space game"!?! Seriously if you played the game then you know that they can't even get the "taxis" to fly correctly. And all the ship scenes are cut scenes... So I'm surprise they even bothered with the Space Combat mini-game.
Later on it will be nice to have other features. I would even like for there to be better landing, travel, and take off animations. Because what they currently have is pathetic. Still I don't expect them to build a real 3D space combat simulation until much later.
I mean one thing that occured to me was that they know how to do "elevator rides". (Though whether or not they were done well is another matter!) But all you have in SWTOR for elevators is a black screen. So I'd say that the Hero Engine may have some limitations that they haven't figured out how to work around.
Still at the end of the day I have to say I enjoy SWTOR. The real question is what will they do to keep me playing after I've played all 8 basic storylines? They better have some new "content" on the way.
I just don't agree with #1 because DH just posted datamined info from the patch they did for launch and they added 1800 more items and 600 more schematics for the game. There will be tons of different looks you will be able to have. And with the awesome mod setup they have you can keep look you want.
Although I do agree with most of the other stuff, none of it is a deal breaker with me.
IMHO it's designed that way to "surprise" you, in a way you can't exactly predict what your character is going to say.
Personally I do think it's breaking the immersion as removing the control of the character from the player, making him/her more a tool than a contributor.
I loved both the DA and ME games and I was really happy to see that SWTOR is just like those two.
I wouldn't say that char customisation is perfect, but I like the litle touches like the faces changing with the different body types. Well, they can never be enough hair-styles (and after the horrific ones in both DA and ME, the ones in SWTOR are definitely a step up - even though I can't live with more than 5 of them).
I can see the point of the world being a bit lifeless, but I rather have no critters than seeing them slaughered by hormonal teenagers (whose nunbers shouldn't be too high hopefully - sorry, hate to play with kids).
One thing I'd like to see is customisable space-ships. I don't like the fact that they look the same for everybody. It's your home base, so you should be able to customise it.
So far I tried space battle once, wasn't great for me, I thought I did something wrong, because I couldn't control the ship. I felt sick after the whole experience for about an hour.
I'm not quite sure about the romance options, but from what I know, they are out there. From what I've seen so far, those are much better for male players (ofc). If it's like in ME2, I'd like to protest in the name of my fellow female players
Come on, in ME2, you had Jacob, utterly annoying, the fish guy, don't remember his name, kind of Fenris with gills and Garrus, whom I really liked, but he looks like my dog, so love him as a pet, not as... urgh, don't even want to think about it.
I know, it's not a major issue, but the romance option was always a huuuuge appeal of Bioware games (don't let me get started on Alistair ( hated by all guys, loved by most female players, just youtube him)), but when I run around in the game on the Sith side and hear comments like "Can't wait to bone Kaliyo" and look at the idiotic Khem Val, I feel a bit jealous.
(Sarcasm warning for those who don"t get it.)
Originally posted by VikingGamer...
The choices of forum avatars are better than their in game character creation.
Sad but true...their avatars definitely have better looking items for things like Miraluka masks...
Here is my top 5
1) Waaaaaaaay too much of an on the rails themepark. It is impossible to get off the rails and just "live" in the space...something the principal lead designer promised we would be able to do. This carries over into the "small zone" implementation of the worlds. The worlds all feel tiny, because you are always limited by the lowest common denominator...the tiny zone you are in...VERY disappoinitng
2) Character creation and subsequent character customization...chargen sux....pure laziness...cyborgs as a race, as implemented, epitomizes this pervasive flaw. Their mod system MIGHT be all right for stats, but it willl NEVER be a decent substitute for an appearance tab. There are WAY too many items that simply do not have all the slots.
For a game that has countless up close cut scenes of your toon in conversations, the lack of a modern or robust set of chargen and appearance features IS UNFORGIVEABLE. INEXCUSEABLE.
3) Space - reducing space down to a single player tunnel shooter in a star wars MMO is CRIMINAL.
4) No social aspects. No hobbies. No real, appropriate minigames like swoop racing, dejarik, pazaak, sabaac, etc. No reason to go to a cantina other than to log out. No innovative or robust guild or community supporting tools. 95%+ if the game is a solo rpg experience, which is a GIGANTIC waste of a star wars MMO.
5) Class balance is a JOKE. They only have 8 classes and yet they are completely unbalanced. They are CLUELESS when it comes to balancing a melee class. PATHETIC design work here.
Good to know im not the only one. Honestly for me it started with KOTOR, reasonably enjoyable game, but its when i started to notice the trend. Then a few years later i was walking by and my roomey was playing mass effect, and i actually thought it was a new KOTOR series, so i asked him and he said no its their new game mass effect. So i sat down and watched him play it for a little over an hour, and i just couldnt stop laughing. They basically took KOTOR, crossed a few names out, replaced them with some other names. Updated the graphics a bit, changed the storyline somewhat (overall a lot of plot lines were very similar though) and bam, new game.
IMO The only thing worse than BioWare about slapping a new coat of paint on the same house, so to speak, is Infinity Ward/Activision. I loved CoD 1 and 2, but after CoD 4 and everything subsequent to that... just sad. The worst part is how the fanbois and people just bend right over and take it. Actually, thats not the worst part, the worst part is that after they're done taking it up the rear, they turn around and defend the developers and shower them with praise, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
The initial version of space combat in SW:TOR is due to the influence of Gordan Walton, who was BioWare Austin’s Vice President/Co-Studio Director (and former Sony Online Entertainment Austin VP/Executive Producer/Studio Manager). He gave a presentation during the 2010 Game Developers Conference entitled “MMO Retention - Learning from the First 25 Years.”
Speaking about SWG's JtL, he said: “So it wasn't positive for retention, because the game was a very different game. It was a 3D space game. And in fact, a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit. That was part of what we found out. The control scheme had to be different; everything had to be different. It was not as advantageous to us as we had hoped.” Cryptic made the same comments about its Alpha testers with STO as well, when they announced that space movement would not be fully 3D. What I would like to know is where they keep finding these people that can't handle it?
On the matter of rentention, post-JtL: “And in fact, we had a backlash of some anti-retention from the current customers that we already had because they were enjoying the game they were playing and wanted more of that, or wanted that fixed more than they wanted to fly around space in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't that flying around space in the Star Wars universe wasn't cool: the problem was that they wanted more of what they were already doing.” The fact of the matter is, SOE put out a game that was not ready for launch. Add to that the fact that WoW launched less than a month after JtL launched, and I believe those two (shoddy launch, another game) are the reasons for SWG's drop off in subscribers.
With Gordon Walton believeing JtL was causing SWG's decline, and with him being in a position to heavily influence the space part of SW:TOR, I wasn't really surprised at the decision to make it space on rails.
(Quotes taken from an article almost two years old now (Note: at the time it was written, we hadn't yet heard about SW:TOR's space game yet): http://www.alltern8.com/library/mmo_games/star_wars_space_combat_and_the_old_republic/l-5178_7.html
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan